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    20 seconds faster at the Nuerburgring?

    Most of you already read and have seen that Walter Roehrl is driving the 997 (even while not driving on the limit), round about 20 seconds faster on the Ring as the 996.

    We didn't discuss yet, how this really could be possible. I mean - 20 seconds is not just a little faster, I mean, there are worlds in between.

    Has someone the actual figures of a 996 // 996TT // 996 GT3.... that we can compare this to the 997?

    L@rs

    Re: 20 seconds faster at the Nuerburgring?

    This is the official times (by Rohl):

    997C2 = 8:15
    997S (PASM on normal setting) = 8:05
    997S (PASM on sport setting) = 8:02
    997S with -20mm/LSD suspension = 7:59

    Given that Rohl laps a 8:17 with the 300HP 3.4l version of the 996C2, and 8:16 with the 200lbs heavier AWD 320HP 996C4S, the "20 senconds faster 997" is a "bit" of an exageration from their part. At most you can say the 355HP 997S with the sportiest suspesnsion on is 18 seconds faster that the least powerfull 300HP 996 version of MY99.

    The 997 lap times are a joke considering its supposed to be a new version with 6 years of evolution over the 996, 2 seconds faster with a 25HP advantage and 18 wheels is dissappointing to say the least, a current 320HP 996C2 version with just 18" wheels added on and the simple M030 suspension is faster already than the 997... a big let down if you ask me from Porsche which makes me wonder. Porsche is about performance and not about new interior and gadgets with different styled headlights and exterior body, thats not were the evolution should be focused at in a 911, or at least it wasn't. Were is the newer weight saving materials?, were are the improved suspensions?, better performing engine?, etc. (most are in the 997"S")
    That said, the 997S times are spectacular though, specially with the sport suspension option. Walter Rohl did 7:56 with the 360HP 996GT3 MkI in 2000, so the 997S is only 3 seconds off that mark but with rear seats, PSM, more versatile less radical setup, etc. Very impressive. The 997S is what the new 997C2 is supposed to be after 6 years of evolution but with a profitable markup for Porsche hidden under a new name designation. So we will all have to jump the hoop and sign for the higher priced 997S if we want to enjoy a signifincant model change performance improvement over our 996. Sorry for the rant & being so frank, we all love Porsche, but wats true is true.



    SIDE NOTE: As to the other 996 times,
    MkII GT3: 7:54 (Von Saurma)
    996GT2: 7:46 (Rohl, but said he could go faster)
    996GT3RS:7:46 (R-compound Corsa System tires)
    996GT2: 7:46 (Von Saurma)

    Re: 20 seconds faster at the Nuerburgring?

    All that is true, except for one thing that i must correct:

    The 996 TT did the ring in 7:56, not 7:46.
    I know it was a typo, but it deserved to be corrected.

    Cheers

    EDIT: CF, you changed that! There was a 996 TT instead of 996 GT2...

    Re: 20 seconds faster at the Nuerburgring?

    Thanks, sorry for the typo
    This is how it is:

    SIDE NOTE: As to the other 996 times,
    MkII GT3: 7:54 (Von Saurma)
    996TT: 7:56 (Rohl, but said he could go faster)
    996GT3RS:7:46 (R-compound Corsa System tires)
    996GT2: 7:46 (Von Saurma)


    Re: 20 seconds faster at the Nuerburgring?

    Quote:
    carlos fromspain said:
    This is the official times (by Rohl):

    997C2 = 8:15
    997S (PASM on normal setting) = 8:05
    997S (PASM on sport setting) = 8:02
    997S with -20mm/LSD suspension = 7:59

    Given that Rohl laps a 8:17 with the 300HP 3.4l version of the 996C2, and 8:16 with the 200lbs heavier AWD 320HP 996C4S, the "20 senconds faster 997" is a "bit" of an exageration from their part. At most you can say the 355HP 997S with the sportiest suspesnsion on is 18 seconds faster that the least powerfull 300HP 996 version of MY99.

    The 997 lap times are a joke considering its supposed to be a new version with 6 years of evolution over the 996, 2 seconds faster with a 25HP advantage and 18 wheels is dissappointing to say the least, a current 320HP 996C2 version with just 18" wheels added on and the simple M030 suspension is faster already than the 997... a big let down if you ask me from Porsche which makes me wonder. Porsche is about performance and not about new interior and gadgets with different styled headlights and exterior body, thats not were the evolution should be focused at in a 911, or at least it wasn't. Were is the newer weight saving materials?, were are the improved suspensions?, better performing engine?, etc. (most are in the 997"S")
    That said, the 997S times are spectacular though, specially with the sport suspension option. Walter Rohl did 7:56 with the 360HP 996GT3 MkI in 2000, so the 997S is only 3 seconds off that mark but with rear seats, PSM, more versatile less radical setup, etc. Very impressive. The 997S is what the new 997C2 is supposed to be after 6 years of evolution but with a profitable markup for Porsche hidden under a new name designation. So we will all have to jump the hoop and sign for the higher priced 997S if we want to enjoy a signifincant model change performance improvement over our 996. Sorry for the rant & being so frank, we all love Porsche, but wats true is true.



    SIDE NOTE: As to the other 996 times,
    MkII GT3: 7:54 (Von Saurma)
    996GT2: 7:46 (Rohl, but said he could go faster)
    996GT3RS:7:46 (R-compound Corsa System tires)
    996GT2: 7:46 (Von Saurma)



    I give P credit for now offering a $90K 997S which can do Ring in 7:59 vs $135K 996TT's 7:56.....to me, that's excellent technologic advances and value. I'm most concerned about this controversial steering feel of 997S.....hopefully, P didn't waste R&D to add luxury car 1-finger steerability (for cruise mode as one chats on the cell phone and pecks away at his Blackberry)....and keeps this nonsense away from 997TT and 997GT3.

    Re: 20 seconds faster at the Nuerburgring?

    Thanks Carlos - great summary!

    So at the end, the 997 is really a bit faster - maybe not that what we expected but it is!

    Anyway - not sure if really someone under us, was lookíng for a 997 - I think most will go for the "S" anyway!

    Comparing the features and the power, the 10bugs more are still a good value!

    L@rs

    Re: 20 seconds faster at the Nuerburgring?

    Quote:
    Lars996 said: I think most will go for the "S" anyway!

    Comparing the features and the power, the 10bugs more are still a good value!



    I couldn't agree more.

    Re: 20 seconds faster at the Nuerburgring?

    Quote:
    carlos fromspain said:
    Quote:
    Lars996 said: I think most will go for the "S" anyway!

    Comparing the features and the power, the 10bugs more are still a good value!



    I couldn't agree more.



    My feeling is that after a year or so Porsche won't even make the standard Carrera. The standard Carrera should have been Carrera S but considering their marketing nobody knows why.

    Re: 20 seconds faster at the Nuerburgring?

    Quote:
    Ron (Houston) said:
    Quote:
    carlos fromspain said:
    Quote:
    Lars996 said: I think most will go for the "S" anyway!

    Comparing the features and the power, the 10bugs more are still a good value!



    I couldn't agree more.



    My feeling is that after a year or so Porsche won't even make the standard Carrera. The standard Carrera should have been Carrera S but considering their marketing nobody knows why.



    Porsche is realizing only the hard core enthusiast care about ring times. That is why the C4S Cab. the slowest model in the fleet is the best seller. The S will give these buyer's what they are looking for.

    Porsche needs to make their cars more exciting to drive and look at. The are terrific performing cars but honestly they lack passion. The CGT is probably a blast to drive assuming they fix the clutch. It has all the attributes of a race car clothed in street car body. From what I have read, the CGT is a page out of the Ferrari playbook but with Germany engineering.

    Re: 20 seconds faster at the Nuerburgring?

    Quote:
    Ron (Houston) said:

    My feeling is that after a year or so Porsche won't even make the standard Carrera. The standard Carrera should have been Carrera S but considering their marketing nobody knows why.



    It's called packaging. With the base Carrera, Porsche can say they didn't increase prices with the 997--and if you buy a base Carrera, that's true. If they just introduced the package of features in the S--with the $10K increase, and no matter what they called it--they would get major push back. So if you want the new technology and power increase, you have to pay for it.

    Of course, one could argue that the (modest) power increase and new technology/features in the S are nothing more than one would expect in the normal evolution (to use Porsche's word) from one model generation to another. If Porsche only introduced the S (regardless of what they called it) and increased the price a few $K, this would seem reasonable--but then they wouldn't get the full $10K more per car!!

    Re: 20 seconds faster at the Nuerburgring?

    Just how fast were you expecting it to go ?.If the performance gains for each successive new model were to be considerably greater than the previous incarnation then most of these 964/993/996/997 would be expected to flash past 60 in about 3secs and 100 in probably 8secs , this is not going to happen as there eventually would come a time where you would have a standard 911 that would not be able to be bettered by a more expensive model ..i.e c2 would be so fast that it would have superior performance to the current gt2 , and where does the gt2 go from there ?

    Re: 20 seconds faster at the Nuerburgring?

    good point

    Re: 20 seconds faster at the Nuerburgring?

    When I say the 997S has a modest power increase, compare the 295 lb-ft of torque in the 997S to my '04 Carrera with 273. It's an 8% increase--for a new model generation. That feels modest to me. Certainly not something I should pay $10K more for.

    In terms of power, torque is what matters to me. Lots of people focus on HP (certainly caused by the manufacturers marketing), but that affects how fast the car is (i.e. top speed), not how quick it is. I doubt most drivers will ever reach the top speed of a car, but most do enjoy a quick car. And I'm no drag racer--I just enjoy spirited driving.

    HP has increased 11% (less modest)--but I haven't gone 177 mph in my Carrera yet, so the 182 mph top speed in the S is interesting but not meaningful to me.

    Re: 20 seconds faster at the Nuerburgring?

    Quote:
    poursha said:
    In terms of power, torque is what matters to me. Lots of people focus on HP (certainly caused by the manufacturers marketing), but that affects how fast (i.e. top speed) the car is, not how quick it is. I doubt most drivers will ever reach the top speed of a car, but most do enjoy a quick car. And I'm no drag racer--I just enjoy spirited driving.



    Power makes your car go quicker too - not just torque. If you just needed torque to go quick, then dragsters would use turbo-diesel motors

    Re: 20 seconds faster at the Nuerburgring?

    Quote:
    Grant said:
    Quote:
    poursha said:
    In terms of power, torque is what matters to me. Lots of people focus on HP (certainly caused by the manufacturers marketing), but that affects how fast (i.e. top speed) the car is, not how quick it is. I doubt most drivers will ever reach the top speed of a car, but most do enjoy a quick car. And I'm no drag racer--I just enjoy spirited driving.



    Power makes your car go quicker too - not just torque. If you just needed torque to go quick, then dragsters would use turbo-diesel motors



    ...but that would surely limit their top speed, which they also focus on...

    Naturally, the 2 are related--this is a good article for those interested:
    http://www.datsuns.com/torquehp.htm

    Re: 20 seconds faster at the Nuerburgring?

    Quote:
    taffy said:
    Just how fast were you expecting it to go ?.If the performance gains for each successive new model were to be considerably greater than the previous incarnation then most of these 964/993/996/997 would be expected to flash past 60 in about 3secs and 100 in probably 8secs , this is not going to happen as there eventually would come a time where you would have a standard 911 that would not be able to be bettered by a more expensive model ..i.e c2 would be so fast that it would have superior performance to the current gt2 , and where does the gt2 go from there ?



    There is an inverse exponential curve with each successive model, and by studying the previous models performance improvements and other markes improvements with successive model you can extract an approximation of what you can expect from each. With that in mind, do you think that one second faster over a 20km track is an adecuate and reasonable performance increase from a the new version of a high end sportcar after 6 years? do you think that will be the difference from the C6 corvette over the previous C5?, or the next 500HP C6Z06 over the 400HP C5-Z06?, the upcomming V8-M3 over the E46-M3 or the new V10-M5 over the outgoing M5?, the Ferrari 430M over the F360M? and so on...

    The 355HP 997S with PASM is the logical succesor of the 996C2 performance wise, and the 997C2 is just a "912" version used as an excuse to sell the 997S for 10k more. That is the reason Porsche broke tradition and introduced TWO new models at the same time, imagine if the Porsche only the 997C2 alone, what would the press and enthusiasts say about the new generation? instead they introduce the 997S along and everybody focuses on it instead and takes it as the refference for the improvements of the new generation, notice how in the magazines only the 997S is tested and talked about and not the 997

    So the 997 is a bummer and dissapointment (and the best proof will be the sales ratio vs the 997S, never will a C2 sell so bad), but OTOH at least the 997S is a great buy since even for 10k more its still a great and what many of us were looking for to replace our 996's.

    Re: 20 seconds faster at the Nuerburgring?

    Quote:
    carlos fromspain said:

    The 355HP 997S with PASM is the logical succesor of the 996C2 performance wise, and the 997C2 is just a "912" version used as an excuse to sell the 997S for 10k more.




    Well put!

    Re: 20 seconds faster at the Nuerburgring?

    Thanks for the article on HP and TQ - good stuff!

    Re: 20 seconds faster at the Nuerburgring?

    Quote:
    Grant said:
    Power makes your car go quicker too - not just torque. If you just needed torque to go quick, then dragsters would use turbo-diesel motors



    I agree, speacially in sportcars, just look at the Formula 1's HP vs torque figures. Over 900HP at very high revs is what makes them fast and what they look for, all at the expense of decreasing less important for them torque output. So much so that an F1's torque output is similar to a simple M3's torque, which is ridiculous for a 900HP car.

    OTOH a street car is a bit different since they are heavier and need to work over a broader and lower rev range so torque becomes a more important factro than in race cars. But the sportier the more HP is important, the more work or confort oriented the torque is more important. But were is the balance?

    Re: 20 seconds faster at the Nuerburgring?

    Quote:
    carlos fromspain said:
    But were is the balance?



    Carlos,

    There is no balance, there are only compromises, and each of us has to choose his own.

    And even then, we would ideally want to choose a different compromise for driving in the mountains than for dashing down an Autobahn.

    Come to think of it, if you drive a 911 tt, you've got both those eventualities pretty well covered.

    They don't fit it with a tow hitch, so we won't discuss how suited it would be to tow garden waste to the dump!

    Re: 20 seconds faster at the Nuerburgring?

    Quote:
    fritz said:Come to think of it, if you drive a 911 tt, you've got both those eventualities pretty well covered.




     
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