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    Re: Valencia Street Circuit F1 GP August 2008

    Quote:
    Spyderidol said:
    You make a big mistake! I'm no Lewis fan.
    I was actually relieved he didn't win.
    The problem is that you can't make up rules and then apply them selectively.
    The actual wording of that particular rule was quoted by Martin Brundle during the race .



    Martin Brundle is not the commentator in all the networks around the world covering the F1 races.
    In this respect the majority of the viewers have not heard it yet. I would appreciate if someone can find the specific rule and just copy/paste it here.

    Thanks
    John
    Athens, Greece

    Re: Valencia Street Circuit F1 GP August 2008

    Quote:
    TRF414WCR said:
    Quote:
    Spyderidol said:
    You make a big mistake! I'm no Lewis fan.
    I was actually relieved he didn't win.
    The problem is that you can't make up rules and then apply them selectively.
    The actual wording of that particular rule was quoted by Martin Brundle during the race .



    Martin Brundle is not the commentator in all the networks around the world covering the F1 races.
    In this respect the majority of the viewers have not heard it yet. I would appreciate if someone can find the specific rule and just copy/paste it here.

    Thanks
    John
    Athens, Greece



    There you go, a deep analysis of the incident by PlanetF1.

    Link the the article

    Re: Valencia Street Circuit F1 GP August 2008

    That is the opinion of what I understand is a British journalist. It is biased and other than trying to shift the feelings of the readers against Ferrari, it gives no evidence that the action of Ferrari or of Massa is by any means subject to punishment with other than a financial fine.

    The comment "a crime that wasn't only clearly committed but also subsequently revealed by its perpetrator to be serious and potentially catastrophic." is way out of proportion to the reality of the events.
    I wonder what were the thoughts of Mr. Pete Gill when Lewis crashed on Kimmi a few races ago in the pit lane...?

    Anyway, this discussion will not lead to anything fruitful as I understand on such occasions anyone can draw his own conclusions based on their own point of view.

    John

    Re: Valencia Street Circuit F1 GP August 2008

    Quote:
    TRF414WCR said:
    That is the opinion of what I understand is a British journalist. It is biased and other than trying to shift the feelings of the readers against Ferrari, it gives no evidence that the action of Ferrari or of Massa is by any means subject to punishment with other than a financial fine.

    The comment "a crime that wasn't only clearly committed but also subsequently revealed by its perpetrator to be serious and potentially catastrophic." is way out of proportion to the reality of the events.
    I wander what were the thoughts of Mr. Pete Gill when Lewis crashed on Kimmi a few races ago in the pit lane...?

    Anyway, this discussion will not lead to anything fruitful as I understand on such occasions anyone can draw his own conclusions based on their own point of view.

    John



    Although Ferrari rather than Massa is to blame for the incident they could at least have given the team a proper fine around Euro 100 000. Euro 10 000 is nothing especially when Ferrari will be paying for Massa, FIA might as well have not dealt a punishment at all. Especially when Hamilton was fined Euro 5 000 just for arriving 90 seconds late for the Friday press conference.

    What's worse about inconsistent and questionable ruling like this is that it opens up loopholes for other teams/driver who might breech similar regulations in the future. And that's not very good for the sport since a couple of points can determine whether or not you win the championship.

    The event was quite serious in the way that it could have led to a collision and the pitlane is a very delicate place. A collision there would not only wreck both driver's race but also lead to a clog that could be disastrous for the other drivers who pitted right before the accident.

    Re: Valencia Street Circuit F1 GP August 2008

    @ Emperor

    That is a good argument and I agree. The value of the financial fines is too small and pointless and it only makes the decisions loose their value.

    Re: Valencia Street Circuit F1 GP August 2008

    Quote:
    TRF414WCR said:

    I wonder what were the thoughts of Mr. Pete Gill when Lewis crashed on Kimmi a few races ago in the pit lane...?
    John



    Didn't Lewis get a 10 place drop at the next GP?

    Re: Valencia Street Circuit F1 GP August 2008

    Quote:
    ezzie said:
    Quote:
    TRF414WCR said:

    I wonder what were the thoughts of Mr. Pete Gill when Lewis crashed on Kimmi a few races ago in the pit lane...?
    John



    Didn't Lewis get a 10 place drop at the next GP?




    First of all, I only asked what were Mr. Gill's thoughts on that incident. I dont see where your reply is relevant to my question.
    Second, since you did mention it, if you really believe that the action of Lewis in that incident is similar to Ferrari's action on this race, with similar consequences for the outcome of the race, then it is a waste of time arguing over this subject.

    Is there any non UK based/related reader with an opinion on this?

    Re: Valencia Street Circuit F1 GP August 2008

    This debate really sums up the race...nothing to talk about in racing terms!

    This was the most boring yet. They say that regulation changes will promote over-taking again next year - I'll believe it when I see it.

    Re: Valencia Street Circuit F1 GP August 2008

    One of the worst races I have seen for a long time... Thankfully I had recorded it and was able to forward parts.... I think there was 1 overtake bar the start!!!! Painfull to watch!

    Can't believe the penalty for Massa's release... Should have been a drive through and issued pretty soon after the incident... As far as I'm concerned that was dangerous, if they had come together towards the end of the pit lane it would have been a mess. No room to move and there also peopl e standing around!

    Agree with DR P, they should not have dropped NBR for this... First there is no chance for overtake, secondly I find the trackside scenery very very grey and boring... Watching the in car view, found it very hard to work out where the cars are on track!

    Rubbish! A shame as some of the recent races have been pretty good

    Re: Valencia Street Circuit F1 GP August 2008

    Quote:
    TRF414WCR said:
    Is there any non UK based/related reader with an opinion on this?



    It's not about being Uk based or not. It's about transparency and consistency of rules application. I don't disagree that Massa is a worthy winner of the dullest race in years. However, as has been said he ought to have had a drive through penalty at the very least, as he did gain advantage in not waiting for Sutil to leave first and being briefly stuck behind him briefly. The reprimand ought to have been the same as that for speeding in the pit lane.

    Re: Valencia Street Circuit F1 GP August 2008

    Quote:
    ezzie said:
    Quote:
    TRF414WCR said:
    Is there any non UK based/related reader with an opinion on this?



    It's not about being Uk based or not... as he did gain advantage in not waiting for Sutil to leave first and being briefly stuck behind him briefly...



    I am sorry to repeat my self, but you are so biased that your eyes sent to your brain different images than what actually occurred.
    Massa did NOT get any advantage. He saw the pit lane is far too narrow at the exit for two cars to pass and he braked hard, avoiding collision and settling behind a LAPPED car!
    Exactly where is the advantage he gained?

    Re: Valencia Street Circuit F1 GP August 2008

    Quote:
    Dr. Phil said:
    I really don't understand how they can replace NBR GP track with this one.



    Although NBR is a track light years ahead of Valencia I don't know if it would have been a better success. Did you see photos from Hockeheim? Many of the grandstands had a quarter of their seats unoccupied. Utterly embarrassing for a nation home to two of top F1 teams. Hosting yet another race there this year wouldn't have been good for business.

    But I really wonder what Bernie have planned on doing with Valencia cause it's a terrible track. The docks weren't swarmed by yachts and neither was the event sold out. The track itself didn't turn out to be the overtaking orgy the organizers expected, neither were there any significant overtaking during the GP2 weekend. The circuit is kind of in no-mans land, it's not wide and open enough like a proper circuit nor is it as tight as Monaco forcing drivers to tip toe through corners. More so it's dusty as well, not to mention pale looking. It doesn't have anything speaking for it, no heritage, no glamor, no excitement, no nothing except for Bernie's beloved new and exceptional paddock hospitality.

    Bernie is killing F1. I can't believe he is dumping tracks like Silverstone for circuits like this one! He sure must come up with a new circuit for the European GP because the future for Valencia is not looking bright at all. Attendance is bound to be lower next year. When Alonso retires I'd imagine the attendance will be very very low. The best use of the circuit is engine testing.

    Re: Valencia Street Circuit F1 GP August 2008

    Massa did gain an advantage, though admittedly minimal in Ferrari releasing him rather than waiting for Sutil to pass. He then proceeded to drive dangerously till the wall approached and he had to back of it, going very close to the parked safety car. As to who's biased, I think you wear rosso tinted spectacles. :-)

    Re: Valencia Street Circuit F1 GP August 2008

    Sutil was just driving past at 50kph? what should he have done ?? stop to let Massa in. Rediculous, Ferrari got away very lightly (actually was not punished at all) a complete shambles and not good for the sport. Massa should have had a drive through penalty ! Lewis would have been given a stop and go, that's how biast the stewarts to Ferarri are.

    Re: Valencia Street Circuit F1 GP August 2008

    I know this may seem silly to most of you, but given Massa blew up his engine with 3 laps to go in the last race while dominating the race, I felt that he didn't deserve to get penalised for this one due to his team's error once again. Anyone else feel that Massa is the guy with the momentum right now and that he may actually be the World Champion?

    Re: Valencia Street Circuit F1 GP August 2008

    Quote:
    Emperor said:
    Quote:
    Dr. Phil said:
    I really don't understand how they can replace NBR GP track with this one.



    Although NBR is a track light years ahead of Valencia I don't know if it would have been a better success. Did you see photos from Hockeheim? Many of the grandstands had a quarter of their seats unoccupied. Utterly embarrassing for a nation home to two of top F1 teams. Hosting yet another race there this year wouldn't have been good for business.

    But I really wonder what Bernie have planned on doing with Valencia cause it's a terrible track. The docks weren't swarmed by yachts and neither was the event sold out. The track itself didn't turn out to be the overtaking orgy the organizers expected, neither were there any significant overtaking during the GP2 weekend. The circuit is kind of in no-mans land, it's not wide and open enough like a proper circuit nor is it as tight as Monaco forcing drivers to tip toe through corners. More so it's dusty as well, not to mention pale looking. It doesn't have anything speaking for it, no heritage, no glamor, no excitement, no nothing except for Bernie's beloved new and exceptional paddock hospitality.

    Bernie is killing F1. I can't believe he is dumping tracks like Silverstone for circuits like this one! He sure must come up with a new circuit for the European GP because the future for Valencia is not looking bright at all. Attendance is bound to be lower next year. When Alonso retires I'd imagine the attendance will be very very low. The best use of the circuit is engine testing.



    +1 . That track and race was so boring !!!! And this is supposed to be the future of F1 ? I hope there will not be a race next year in Valencia....

    Re: Valencia Street Circuit F1 GP August 2008

    Quote:
    WAY said:
    Anyone else feel that Massa is the guy with the momentum right now and that he may actually be the World Champion?



    Unfortunately, I feel that he may be the 2008 champion especially since he drives for FIA's favourite team.

    I say unfortunately, because he is not an allround driver for this level of racing nor he has the personality of a Champion.

    Re: Valencia Street Circuit F1 GP August 2008

    I haven't watched the race. Was the Massa incident similar to the Vettel-Alonso incident a few races ago, when everybody was congratulating the kid for the balls he had?

    By the way, I understand that Lewis fans are used to the treatment he recieved last year, crane always there to help him, other drivers punished without any reason (Kubica in Fuji), etc, etc., but seriously, you can expect that every year.

    Re: Valencia Street Circuit F1 GP August 2008

    Quote:
    gangajas said:
    I haven't watched the race. Was the Massa incident similar to the Vettel-Alonso incident a few races ago, when everybody was congratulating the kid for the balls he had?

    By the way, I understand that Lewis fans are used to the treatment he recieved last year, crane always there to help him, other drivers punished without any reason (Kubica in Fuji), etc, etc., but seriously, you can expect that every year.



    You make a mistake in that you assume that everybody who criticises Ferrari or their drivers or FIA for the treatment of Ferrari is a Hamilton fan.

    We are motorsport fans who want to see exciting, clean races without backroom games and intriques.

    Re: Valencia Street Circuit F1 GP August 2008

    Quote:
    reginos said:

    Unfortunately, I feel that he may be the 2008 champion especially since he drives for FIA's favourite team.

    I say unfortunately, because he is not an allround driver for this level of racing nor he has the personality of a Champion.



    "Allround driver" I cannot argue with this, as I agree, he has done very poorly in the rain.
    "nor he has the personality of a Champion"
    what would be acknowledged to you as a personality of a Champion?

    Re: Valencia Street Circuit F1 GP August 2008

    Quote:
    Emperor said:
    Quote:
    Dr. Phil said:
    I really don't understand how they can replace NBR GP track with this one.



    Although NBR is a track light years ahead of Valencia I don't know if it would have been a better success. Did you see photos from Hockeheim? Many of the grandstands had a quarter of their seats unoccupied. Utterly embarrassing for a nation home to two of top F1 teams. Hosting yet another race there this year wouldn't have been good for business.





    ..."not good for business" is a rather mild description for a financial disaster Nürburgring GmbH suffers losses of appr. 10 m Euro per F1 race (135 Euro per ticket in 2005) - the taxpayer is greatly contributing to Bernie's wealth Even in the golden Schumi era it wasn't a really profitable business.

    Who wants to pay 460 Euro for a grandstand ticket to watch a boring procession ?

    For this kind of money I prefer a trackday on NoS - much more fun

    Re: Valencia Street Circuit F1 GP August 2008

    Quote:
    WAY said:
    Anyone else feel that Massa is the guy with the momentum right now and that he may actually be the World Champion?



    You're both right and wrong. Massa is an amazing driver.................only when the track temperature is above 40 degrees Celsius. I mean when was the last time he dominated a race weekend where the temperatures weren't high?

    He sure does have potential to win but his versatility is on a par with Hamilton or Kimi.

    Re: Valencia Street Circuit F1 GP August 2008

    Quote:
    TRF414WCR said:
    "nor he has the personality of a Champion"
    what would be acknowledged to you as a personality of a Champion?


    Some of the qualities of a champion IMO:

    Someone who will be remembered many years after he has won the Championship.
    Someone who has won races against the odds and not in the best car of the day.
    Someone with a unique driving skill or style.
    Someone whose appearance and expression outside the cockpit commands reverence or at least respect.

    I don't think this naive brazilian boy has any of the above.

    Re: Valencia Street Circuit F1 GP August 2008

    @ reginos

    I actually agree on all your remarks. Very accurate.
    The problem is that all of those who had these qualities, also had some other, not so very flattering ones...

    Re: Valencia Street Circuit F1 GP August 2008

    I see Massa as another Sato , great driver at times but..........

    Fully agree with Reginos (similar as my statement but fair, maybe be mine is not so fair but Sato had great drives as well but no cigar, he would have been similar to Massa had he been given the opportunity of a Ferrari drive)

     
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