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    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    I understand why many are buying Ev's priced under a $100,000.  But why are rich people buying a luxury EV when there are many luxury gas powered sedans? To save money? Status symbol? I don't get it. yes


    --

    When you're going through hell.....keep going.


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    I'm not too crazy about Teslas nor am I taken by the whole EV concept, but to compare Tesla fans to Jihadist, Nazis, White Supremacists and other fanatics is just a cheap shot and a pure frustration on the part of some people.

    Like it or not, Tesla has put down it's mark on the car industry with full force and they are a pioneers in the EV field. Every other car that's coming out or will be in the future will be compared to the Tesla. IMHO the US has finally came out with a successful car that is universally accepted and for that kudos to Musk and his company.

    We could sit here and debate all we want about the differences in performance, quality, bang for the buck.. etc. but the fact remains that Tesla has revolutionized the way most people perceived EVs.

    Personally, I wouldn't spend more than $50k on an EV because I still look at them as a fun gadget and only an alternative means for city driving. Nothing more.

    @Leawood911 - I'm really happy for you that you have found the car the fulfills your needs and you feel passionate about it. We all strive for the same.wink

     


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    It is not the end all etc. but it is a pretty good car and the best I have owned.  Not at all what the detractors claim. Mine is solid as a rock. Very stiff and zero rattles. No quality issue at all.  Whenever you see such an out of proportion reaction there is much more going on in the background to enlist this type of animosity.  We are not creatures of free will but we think we are. The smarter we are the easier we can be fooled. One tell is if you hate something irrationally- like a president who is doing fine. Lol. 


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    nberry:

    I understand why many are buying Ev's priced under a $100,000.  But why are rich people buying a luxury EV when there are many luxury gas powered sedans? To save money? Status symbol? I don't get it. yes

     

    It's the 'in' thing to do right now Nick.

    Fashionable to be seen in a EV right now, like bell bottoms, platform shoes, Ray-Ban Wayfarer shades, Prius when they first came out, etc.

    Plus, even well off people don't mind getting money back from the government with all the tax credit and subsidies, then there is the HOV privilege, saving time. 

    Anyways, imagine in a alternate universe where there was never any government subsidies for EV, it won't be as popular right now. 


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    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    Nick, I don’t disagree with your post but what % of the driving public would recognize a EV? My guess is less than 5%. 
     

    One thing we can be certain of is gas powered vehicles will be extinct in about 30 years or less.

     


    --

    When you're going through hell.....keep going.


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    nberry:

    I understand why many are buying Ev's priced under a $100,000.  But why are rich people buying a luxury EV when there are many luxury gas powered sedans? To save money? Status symbol? I don't get it. yes

    One reason would be to try the car Smiley

    Just sat in the Taycan and the interior is amazing. This car is tempting. Only the combination of range and missing adequate charger infrastructure will prevent me from getting one. In the end, practicability is a major concern if you get a new car...


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    ha:

    . IMHO the US has finally came out with a successful car that is universally accepted and for that kudos to Musk and his company.

    A friend of mine works for a company that deals with most major car manufacturer ( VW , Audi, Lambo , Porsche , Renault , Ferrari , and a few more ) , providing an essential part of the car .

    The other day he had a meeting with the Tesla guys in Berlin as he may supply the new factory with their product . 

    He was amazed at how they work . Quick , efficient, straight forward . With the traditional car manufacturer it is always a very long decision process , complicated , and pretty unpleasant.
    --

     

     964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm -- 991.2 GT3 RS 

     


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    nberry:

    Nick, I don’t disagree with your post but what % of the driving public would recognize a EV? My guess is less than 5%. 
     

    That is also why people like to buy a Tesla . It is instantly recognizable for what it is . 


    --

     964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm -- 991.2 GT3 RS 


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    Gnil:
     

    He was amazed at how they work . Quick , efficient, straight forward . With the traditional car manufacturer it is always a very long decision process , complicated , and pretty unpleasant.
    --

     

     

    Of course I don't know the background or any further details. However, I would speculate the different experience comes from traditional car makers being (i) used to cost efficiency, i.e. hard negotiation, (ii) focused on quality control, i.e. not easy to convince, always reflecting on possible downsides.

    Tesla is just less experienced and therefore more flexible, if you ask me. You can tell from their products. They just try and let the customer find out if it works or not Smiley


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    MKSGR:
    Gnil:
     

    He was amazed at how they work . Quick , efficient, straight forward . With the traditional car manufacturer it is always a very long decision process , complicated , and pretty unpleasant.
    --

     

     

    Of course I don't know the background or any further details. However, I would speculate the different experience comes from traditional car makers being (i) used to cost efficiency, i.e. hard negotiation, (ii) focused on quality control, i.e. not easy to convince, always reflecting on possible downsides.

    Tesla is just less experienced and therefore more flexible, if you ask me. You can tell from their products. They just try and let the customer find out if it works or not Smiley

    Most probably . But... it stil shows that the traditional car makers , after 50 years of setting up procedures, that for sure ensured quality and cost efficiency , have ended up in a very heavy , formatted way of working . Add on that the arrogance and dirty play tricks ( he told me some pretty unpleasant stories ) and you end up with a dinausaure  compared to the dynamic of Tesla and their most pleasant ways to work with . Tesla at the end has some quality details issues , but people  forgive that in exchange of '' the  general fresh /new ways approach '' in the car industry .


    --

     964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm -- 991.2 GT3 RS 


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    Well, many of us have seen Ford vs Ferrari, right? So we all know how "big business" works at some point. Smaller companies are always more flexible, until they aren't small anymore. 

    I have a lot of sympathy for Tesla and Elon Musk, I really do, I'm no hater, god forbid.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    It is not only about the flexibility/ non flexibility  , it is also about the attitude .  One makes everything they can to make the deals , contacts, business meetings unpleasant ; the other one makes all it can to make the business meetings a nice encounter . 


    --

     964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm -- 991.2 GT3 RS 


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    Gnil:

    It is not only about the flexibility/ non flexibility  , it is also about the attitude .  One makes everything they can to make the deals , contacts, business meetings unpleasant ; the other one makes all it can to make the business meetings a nice encounter . 

    Quality control and build quality issues are now distant rumors which those who have no clue like to keep repeating. Perhaps this is their only hope?  


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    Gnil:

    It is not only about the flexibility/ non flexibility  , it is also about the attitude .  One makes everything they can to make the deals , contacts, business meetings unpleasant ; the other one makes all it can to make the business meetings a nice encounter . 

    This is always about humans: One arrogant ass and the whole thing goes down the drain.

    I had the chance to work as a consultant (medical IT field) for a startup. Thank god I didn't get financially involved (almost did) because one of the owners (there were three) literally went nuts with his ideas, so the whole thing blew up in their faces. Never again. 


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    Gnil:
    ha:

    . IMHO the US has finally came out with a successful car that is universally accepted and for that kudos to Musk and his company.

    A friend of mine works for a company that deals with most major car manufacturer ( VW , Audi, Lambo , Porsche , Renault , Ferrari , and a few more ) , providing an essential part of the car .

    The other day he had a meeting with the Tesla guys in Berlin as he may supply the new factory with their product . 

    He was amazed at how they work . Quick , efficient, straight forward . With the traditional car manufacturer it is always a very long decision process , complicated , and pretty unpleasant.
    --

     

     964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm -- 991.2 GT3 RS 

     

    Not surprised as larger, more mature organizations become bureaucracies with codified standards and methodologies.  When companies are in oligopolies, margins are slim and finance/purchasing wants the best possible pricing from its suppliers.  Quality standards very from organization to organization with the Japanese automakers utilizing statistical quality control processes while some, like Volkswagen Group, tend to rely on 100% inspection on major components and subsystems.  These all impact contracting requirements and costs.

    Tesla, in its Q4 19 financials suffered another deterioration in gross margins as pricing has tightened and the consumer has switched away from the higher margin Model S/X variants to the lower margin Model 3.  It too isn't immune to the ravages of the competitive market space.  


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    Tesla has been lucky so far, there is no real competition. A Taycan is no competition in the Tesla price class. All the other EVs on the market have various "issues" (range, performance, cost).

    This will change but it takes time. I still think that Tesla is extremely overvalued but hey, I bought 4000 Tesla stock at 11 USD and sold at 17 USD, thinking I made a good deal, so maybe I should shut up when it comes to Tesla stock. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan





    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    I would like to add that Auto Zeitung also comes up with better numbers in their reviews, they seem to test their cars differently than Auto, Motor und Sport or Sport Auto for example.

    Given the average results of the M5 Competition (0-100 kph in 3.2 seconds and 0-200 kph in 10.1 seconds), I'd say that the Taycan Turbo does 0-100 kph in 3.0 seconds and 0-200 kph in 10.4 seconds, same goes to the Tesla S Performance Ludicrous mode (0-100 kph in 3.0 seconds and 0-200 kph in 10.4 seconds, which is much more realistic...the only review I've read was 10.8 seconds or so for the Tesla S Performance Ludicrous mode).

    The track times are more interesting, also the fact that the Tesla went into "limp" mode.

    The range of all three cars is not realistic in a real world driving environment if the cars are driven the way they should be driven, if you get my point.

    Last Tesla S P100D I drove had a range of 170 km, my Performante under the same driving conditions (full throttle whenever possible) 300 km. Almost double the range.

    As a last conclusion, I would like to add that the Taycan Turbo is way overpriced. Especially compared to the BMW M5 but also compared to the Tesla S, even if this may not be the competition here. 

    Porsche will have issues selling that many EVs at this price point, especially since the performance is not really better than in the M5. Just my opinion though, maybe I'm wrong. 


    --

     

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)

     


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    Porsche better hope there isn't a large market correction this year. If that happens, there will be many cancellations from the status seekers.


    --

    When you're going through hell.....keep going.


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    From what I have heard the next S with Plaid mode will be interesting. At that point I expect that range, efficiency AND speed as well as endurance will not matter again - except for - wait for it - you know it’s coming - a fantastic interior!  Which is a fair standard and measure and I expect the Porsche to be champion of interiors going forward. 


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    Leawood911:

    From what I have heard the next S with Plaid mode will be interesting. At that point I expect that range, efficiency AND speed as well as endurance will not matter again - except for - wait for it - you know it’s coming - a fantastic interior!  Which is a fair standard and measure and I expect the Porsche to be champion of interiors going forward. 

    Porsche will always offer the better product compared to Tesla. Tesla is cheaper and more versatile. But Porsche is and will be the better car. To each producer its own segment Smiley


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    Leawood911:

    From what I have heard the next S with Plaid mode will be interesting. At that point I expect that range, efficiency AND speed as well as endurance will not matter again - except for - wait for it - you know it’s coming - a fantastic interior!  Which is a fair standard and measure and I expect the Porsche to be champion of interiors going forward. 

     

    IF the plaid cars do come with a much nicer interior, it will just be it catching up to par for it's price class. Acuras, Lexus, Infinites, heck even Camrys have nicer interior than a Model S. They are still a long way to go to be on par with Porsche and above. 

    I hope it will at least match up with the 2021 Escalade's interior to be one of the top domestic interior. 


    --

     

     


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    Whoopsy:
    Leawood911:

    From what I have heard the next S with Plaid mode will be interesting. At that point I expect that range, efficiency AND speed as well as endurance will not matter again - except for - wait for it - you know it’s coming - a fantastic interior!  Which is a fair standard and measure and I expect the Porsche to be champion of interiors going forward. 

     

    IF the plaid cars do come with a much nicer interior, it will just be it catching up to par for it's price class. Acuras, Lexus, Infinites, heck even Camrys have nicer interior than a Model S. They are still a long way to go to be on par with Porsche and above. 

    I hope it will at least match up with the 2021 Escalade's interior to be one of the top domestic interior. 

    Hello. Sarcasm alert. I don’t give a rip about the interior at any price difference. That’s a thing for only a few of you guys Smiley


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    MKSGR:
    Leawood911:

    From what I have heard the next S with Plaid mode will be interesting. At that point I expect that range, efficiency AND speed as well as endurance will not matter again - except for - wait for it - you know it’s coming - a fantastic interior!  Which is a fair standard and measure and I expect the Porsche to be champion of interiors going forward. 

    Porsche will always offer the better product compared to Tesla. Tesla is cheaper and more versatile. But Porsche is and will be the better car. To each producer its own segment Smiley

    Of course they will. They will sprinkle some magic technology dust and a bit of good old fashioned German battery and electric motor know how in the mix and voila they will have no trouble with the plaid power train at all. They held back the power and efficiency in the Taycan because they did not need to go any faster.  It will simply BE the better car because it is a Porsche and must be so.  And of course have the nicest interior. 
    I bet nobody will care or notice if that is not so. Hmmm


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    Maybe Tesla should buy Porsche. Hell VW with their stock price smiley


    --

    Tesla Model S P100d. 2018 991.2 GT3. 2019 BMW M850i Convertible. 2020 Tesla Model 3 Performance. 2020 Aston Martin Vantage. 2020 Mclaren 720S coupe. 🥳


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    Leawood911:
    MKSGR:
    Leawood911:

    From what I have heard the next S with Plaid mode will be interesting. At that point I expect that range, efficiency AND speed as well as endurance will not matter again - except for - wait for it - you know it’s coming - a fantastic interior!  Which is a fair standard and measure and I expect the Porsche to be champion of interiors going forward. 

    Porsche will always offer the better product compared to Tesla. Tesla is cheaper and more versatile. But Porsche is and will be the better car. To each producer its own segment Smiley

    Of course they will. They will sprinkle some magic technology dust and a bit of good old fashioned German battery and electric motor know how in the mix and voila they will have no trouble with the plaid power train at all. They held back the power and efficiency in the Taycan because they did not need to go any faster.  It will simply BE the better car because it is a Porsche and must be so.  And of course have the nicest interior. 
    I bet nobody will care or notice if that is not so. Hmmm

    By the time Tesla will actually sell their new technology to real customer Porsche will also offer an upgrade of the Taycan, it will be as simple as this. The difference is that Tesla starts talking about a new technology years before you can buy it - only to mislead people who are easy to influence Smiley Fact is: Tesla has been practicing for 10 years. But their finest product is immediately beaten by new entries like the Taycan. That is not a good sign for Tesla...


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    Topspeed:




    The Tesla brakes are quite weak it seems. 10m from 150kph-0 is a lot if you need to prevent a crash.


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    Porsche prices are crazy....I would be interested in a Taycan...but not at that price.

    EV are still a relative novelty and the decision to buy one is already not the easiest...with that pricing its a no.


    --
    Speed has never killed anyone, suddenly becoming stationary... That's what gets you.

    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    MKSGR:
    Leawood911:
    MKSGR:
    Leawood911:

    From what I have heard the next S with Plaid mode will be interesting. At that point I expect that range, efficiency AND speed as well as endurance will not matter again - except for - wait for it - you know it’s coming - a fantastic interior!  Which is a fair standard and measure and I expect the Porsche to be champion of interiors going forward. 

    Porsche will always offer the better product compared to Tesla. Tesla is cheaper and more versatile. But Porsche is and will be the better car. To each producer its own segment Smiley

    Of course they will. They will sprinkle some magic technology dust and a bit of good old fashioned German battery and electric motor know how in the mix and voila they will have no trouble with the plaid power train at all. They held back the power and efficiency in the Taycan because they did not need to go any faster.  It will simply BE the better car because it is a Porsche and must be so.  And of course have the nicest interior. 
    I bet nobody will care or notice if that is not so. Hmmm

    By the time Tesla will actually sell their new technology to real customer Porsche will also offer an upgrade of the Taycan, it will be as simple as this. The difference is that Tesla starts talking about a new technology years before you can buy it - only to mislead people who are easy to influence Smiley Fact is: Tesla has been practicing for 10 years. But their finest product is immediately beaten by new entries like the Taycan. That is not a good sign for Tesla...

    Upgrade of the Taycan? The current Porsche business model requires you to *pay twice* for that. However at least the upgrade of a Taycan Turbo S could only be to a Taycan Turbo S Black Edition or wait for it... The Taycan RS Touring. 


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    boytronic:
    MKSGR:
    Leawood911:
    MKSGR:
    Leawood911:

    From what I have heard the next S with Plaid mode will be interesting. At that point I expect that range, efficiency AND speed as well as endurance will not matter again - except for - wait for it - you know it’s coming - a fantastic interior!  Which is a fair standard and measure and I expect the Porsche to be champion of interiors going forward. 

    Porsche will always offer the better product compared to Tesla. Tesla is cheaper and more versatile. But Porsche is and will be the better car. To each producer its own segment Smiley

    Of course they will. They will sprinkle some magic technology dust and a bit of good old fashioned German battery and electric motor know how in the mix and voila they will have no trouble with the plaid power train at all. They held back the power and efficiency in the Taycan because they did not need to go any faster.  It will simply BE the better car because it is a Porsche and must be so.  And of course have the nicest interior. 
    I bet nobody will care or notice if that is not so. Hmmm

    By the time Tesla will actually sell their new technology to real customer Porsche will also offer an upgrade of the Taycan, it will be as simple as this. The difference is that Tesla starts talking about a new technology years before you can buy it - only to mislead people who are easy to influence Smiley Fact is: Tesla has been practicing for 10 years. But their finest product is immediately beaten by new entries like the Taycan. That is not a good sign for Tesla...

    Upgrade of the Taycan? The current Porsche business model requires you to *pay twice* for that. However at least the upgrade of a Taycan Turbo S could only be to a Taycan Turbo S Black Edition or wait for it... The Taycan RS Touring. 

    Upgrade = Facelift (like they do it for decades Smiley).

    The new Tesla powertrain (should it be ready at some point in the future) or new batteries will also require a new car. No "upgrade". Same applies to the exterior or interior of the car. Or suspension technology, or brakes etc. etc. Tesla cars are still cars. They age as quickly as the rest of the pack Smiley  


     
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