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    Lamborghini Aventador destroyed by fire without apparent cause

    http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1075408_first-reported-lamborghini-aventador-destroyed-by-fire

     

    lamborghini-aventador-lp-700-4-on-fire-in-southern-california--image-courtesy-john-evans_100388260_l.jpg


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    Kind regards, Conny 

    Porsche 997.2 Turbo S  *  BMW X5 M
     

    Re: Lamborghini Aventador destroyed by fire without apparent cause

    Didnt't know that the Aventador is built by Ferrari. angrysmiley


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    The secret of life is to admire without desiring.


    Re: Lamborghini Aventador destroyed by fire without apparent cause

    My personal take on that: People aren't careful with their super sports cars. Just a couple of days ago, I watched a Lamborghini Gallardo driver in Miami driving over a boardwalk margin with his right front wheel. He did it slowly but it made a horrible noise, I think he scraped something under the car or near the wheel arch but the driver just drove away, he couldn't care less. So I think that drivers damage certain parts of their cars, when parking or driving over "obstacles" and after a damage, everything can happen. A Lamborghini Aventador is no off-roader and even a mild pothole can do serious damage.

    I remember that Porsche had a similar problem with drivers damaging the heat insulation for the exhaust system...


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S (June 2012 delivery), Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe PP/DP, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: Lamborghini Aventador destroyed by fire without apparent cause

    Well, it would be interesting to know, if such things are due to driver's faults (as you described Christian) or construction failures (because Lamborghini, Ferrari etc.) are no mass producers.


    --

    The secret of life is to admire without desiring.


    Re: Lamborghini Aventador destroyed by fire without apparent cause

    Rossi:

    Well, it would be interesting to know, if such things are due to driver's faults (as you described Christian) or construction failures (because Lamborghini, Ferrari etc.) are no mass producers.

    I really think that the owners of these cars should be more careful. I remember the story of a guy who tuned his Golf GTi II to over 300 hp and when that tiny spoiler lip unter the front spoiler broke in a boardwalk kissing incident, his Golf started "flying" at over 260 kph, the front axle literally lost contact to the ground and the car flipped.

    I just think that owners should pay more attention to technical details, incl. their tires for example. People pay 130k for a Porsche but want to save a couple of hunders on tires, so they go for cheap stuff. I recently saw a Cayenne with winter tires I never heard of, a very weird name, chinese or taiwanese, no clue whatsoever. Just an example...

    Or take 993/964 owners who use OEM replica parts for their cars because the OEM parts are too expensive... Smiley

    I also don't understand why somebody who owns a Lamborghini Aventador would drive on bad streets or give his car to a valet. Our valet at the Miami 5-star hotel just destroyed the front tire of our Escalade. I'm very anal about tires and always check them before each drive, so I checked my tires and observed a ruptured piece of tire sidewall on the left tire. After making a big fuss out of it with the hotel general manager, they found out that the valet guy kicked a curb which follows the ramps, "cutting" a piece out of the left front tire. If I wouldn't have checked it...

    When I returned the car to the rental company, I showed them the damage and gave them the letter from the hotel (claiming responsibility and offering to pay for the damage) but the guy who checked my car for damaged told me that this happens very often and they have a huge stock of replacement tires, so I shouldn't worry. Smiley

    Long story short: If the car is damaged, it can't function properly. I doubt that you can blame the manufacturer for that.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S (June 2012 delivery), Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe PP/DP, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: Lamborghini Aventador destroyed by fire without apparent cause

    RC:
    Long story short: If the car is damaged, it can't function properly. I doubt that you can blame the manufacturer for that.
     


    I absolutely agree with you on that. Just...

    If I have a look at the multiple car fires, especially at "brand" new (sorry for that Smiley) Ferrari throughout the whole model range I don't believe in driver's malfunction.


    --

    The secret of life is to admire without desiring.


    Re: Lamborghini Aventador destroyed by fire without apparent cause

    An Aventador by definition must be a new car, less than a year old, still with the original owner and with the minimal mileage of a supercar. So there can be no excuses relating to lack of servicing or neglect. There must be some design faults (relating to heat, fuel lines, inflammable materials etc) in  these type of cars cars which can affect some units under certain conditions and which due to their very limited production are not picked up by the factory.

    See how a minor design fault in the 991 could ignite the car. Porsche are more mass produced and therefore they managed to find and rectify the fault early enough.


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: Lamborghini Aventador destroyed by fire without apparent cause

    Hmmm it is indeed strange as we seem to hear more and more of these incidents like Rossi mentions. However, I think that we are missing an important aspect. That is the attention supercars get. I highly doubt there are statistically more fires in supercars per se given also they are built in the same way. Surely, engine etc get hotter, but that can't possibly cause these incidents alone. I imagine the electrical wiring for example must be the same concept as a Toyota Prius.. Similarly, i've probably seen 5 car fires in my road time and all were very common cars... One big difference, you won't see these incidents in the local news or circulating the www. A F150 pick-up burning isn't quite as cool as an F458 burning right cheeky

    That said, i'd be really interested in a specific report on the actual causes.


    Re: Lamborghini Aventador destroyed by fire without apparent cause

    RC:

    Long story short: If the car is damaged, it can't function properly. I doubt that you can blame the manufacturer for that.


    I agree that super cars are more delicate than others. However I find the example of the tuned Golf to be misleading, it just shows what happens when the car is used outside of its intended specifications. Whatever you do, no misuse should lead to a fire, no matter if you´re hitting a curb or a pothole.

    I do believe though that there is a lot of potential on mid-engined cars that fuel or oil will get into contact with hot components and therefore lead to a fire. Whether it happens because the owner accidentally spilled any flammable fluids or due to a design flaw on the car doesn´t matter, it just shouldn´t happen.

    The heat insulation you mentioned was an issue on the 964 models for example but could happen as soon as someone hits your rear bumper... even without your notice or any visible deformations. 


    Re: Lamborghini Aventador destroyed by fire without apparent cause

    Do not underestimate heat build up in a mid engined car. These things get extremely hot, far more so than any conventional car as everything that generates heat is tightly packaged together - engine, gearbox, exhaust system. If you open the rear deck the heat just blasts over you as if you've opened a furnace door. They also take a long, long time to cool down once you've switched the car off. Manufacturers appear to keep adding additional plastic mouldings to hide most of the engine bay which amazes me as it would seem to further add to the problem as there is even less room for the engine to vent heat. All of the mid engined cars I've owned have suffered from intense heat build up - 360/430/Scuderia/R8/Gallardo etc etc.

    The advent of high pressure fuel systems has also added additional problems. Remember it is fuel vapour that ignites so the smallest leak in the system can potentially result in a fire.


    Re: Lamborghini Aventador destroyed by fire without apparent cause

    No such problems on the tens of thousands of Boxster/Cayman produced since 1996. I don't think it's the ME layout to blame. And no problems on the Audi R8, as far as I know.

     


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: Lamborghini Aventador destroyed by fire without apparent cause

    A Boxster or Cayman doesn´t produce as much heat... 


    Re: Lamborghini Aventador destroyed by fire without apparent cause

    The R8


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: Lamborghini Aventador destroyed by fire without apparent cause

    Well,

    make a search in Google and you´ll know the answer... Not that this´d be an empiric survey but these cars seem to be more prone to fire. I wouldn´t be surprised though if some of it is related to mis-routed fuel as the fuel filler is on the B-pillar. Isuk´s consideration about the high-pressure fuel line might be a cause as well since, although a potential hazard on any car, it might be amplified because of the higher temperatures inside the engine bay.

    It is actually impressive that Porsche did not have more fire-related issues with the Boxster and Cayman series. Possibly because the headers are located underneath the car, possibly because they produce less heat, possibly because Porsche did a better job...

    500xr8fire.jpg

    Smiley


    Re: Lamborghini Aventador destroyed by fire without apparent cause

    The Boxster and Cayman have flat 6 engines mounted lower in the chassis. The exhaust system is set fairly well back from the engine and shielded by the floor pan and the bulkhead that separates the engine bay from the boot/trunk area. They have lower rev limits so thermal build up is reduced and the cooling system required for these smaller engines is also less complex with fewer radiators requiring a much lower surface area. Porsche also package these models differently with the fuel tanks up front etc which allows slightly greater space around the engine for airflow. The fact that the cylinders of the boxer engine are effectively at the bottom of the engine gives them greater airflow around the areas of heat build up simply from the air passing beneath the car which allows allows excess heat to be drawn away.

    With a mid mounted V8 or V10 the cylinder heard are midway up the body of the car and out of any natural wind flow areas so require more forced cooling. The rev limits and operating temperatures are much higher. The biggest issue on these cars is packaging all of the required radiators for cooling the engine and gearbox. It's one of the reason why the Veyron cost so much to develop as the cooling challenges on that car were immense and in the end the engine still had to be left exposed for additional cooling. Porsche did the same with the Carrera GT..

    Reginos,

    I've owned an Audi R8 and can assure you they get very hot. Audi did have an issue on the early cars.

    R8 fire damage 6.JPG

    R8 fire damage 5.JPG

    R8 fire damage 1.JPG


    Re: Lamborghini Aventador destroyed by fire without apparent cause

    Isuk,

    maybe I should wait with my responses as you mirror them with much better chosen words. indecision


    Re: Lamborghini Aventador destroyed by fire without apparent cause

    @ Ferdie + ISUK: Thank you very much for your insight and explanations.

    Apparently, M-E powerful cars pose a very big fire risk!  I wonder if insurance companies take that into account, on top of all other risk parameters in their ratings?

    The McLaren MP4 should present an even higher risk with all the radiators crammed at the back.


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: Lamborghini Aventador destroyed by fire without apparent cause

    Maybe I should wait with my response now... indecision

    Water radiators themselves usually operate up to 100 - 120 degrees. The heat generated by the engine and especially exposed at the headers is far higher than that. Possibly the air travelling through the radiators on the McLaren do provide a better cooling and higher air circulation than on other mid-engined cars where a smaller amount of cooler air goes directly to the engine and the remaining inlets are routed to the engine´s intake system or additional cooling devices.


    Re: Lamborghini Aventador destroyed by fire without apparent cause

    Also don't forget about the vibrations level on the powerful mid-engine cars. Those are far higher than on other cars. If an oil line gets punctured or if it gets loose it is enough to set the engine on fire.

    My worst nightmare with the Scuderia was the carbon fibre engine bay and the CF parts in the engine. Hot oil spil + CF parts = big fast fire!

     


    --

    There is no try. Just do.


    Re: Lamborghini Aventador destroyed by fire without apparent cause

    There would be no excuse whatsoever for a (technical) design flaw. Of course sh.t happens but I still think that the owners of the vehicles are to blame. It is a pity that most insurance companies don't seem to have any interest in finding out the truth. 


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S (June 2012 delivery), Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe PP/DP, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: Lamborghini Aventador destroyed by fire without apparent cause

    Another super-car flambe, huh? I wonder why this always seem to be prevalent with mid-engine cars?

    More over you would think after many notable 'spontaneous combustion' issues that seem to pop up in the 1st generation - 1st few hundred production run of any new super car, the engineers would build in an automatic/driver activated fire suppression system.

    50 oz bottle of extinguisher solution plumbed into tubing that leads to the engine compartment with strategically located nozzle heads would cost $30 per unit at most.


    Re: Lamborghini Aventador destroyed by fire without apparent cause

    I think the fundamental issue is that the low volume "super  car" manufacturers do not do enough real world testing to find hidden problems........by comparison, look at all the thousands of miles Porsche tests in varying climates, etc.


    Re: Lamborghini Aventador destroyed by fire without apparent cause

    964C2:

    I think the fundamental issue is that the low volume "super  car" manufacturers do not do enough real world testing to find hidden problems........by comparison, look at all the thousands of miles Porsche tests in varying climates, etc.

    Carrera GTs have also gone up in flames... Smiley


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    FERRARI RULES!!!

    Re: Lamborghini Aventador destroyed by fire without apparent cause

    REALZEUS:
    964C2:

    I think the fundamental issue is that the low volume "super  car" manufacturers do not do enough real world testing to find hidden problems........by comparison, look at all the thousands of miles Porsche tests in varying climates, etc.

    Carrera GTs have also gone up in flames... Smiley

    Like he said, 'low volume super cars.'

    I think his Porsche comment was referring to the 911 but not including the CGT.


    Re: Lamborghini Aventador destroyed by fire without apparent cause

    Porsche Panamera Turbo S...on fire (same car in both videos).

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4S8ikq5SWxU

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6v6isTK6Tc0&feature=relmfu

    Try to listen to those dumb comments, a bunch of a-holes. No car lover would be amused with a car catching fire.

    As to the Carrera GT: I don't know of any case of a burning Carrera GT but of course I can't exclude it.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S (June 2012 delivery), Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe PP/DP, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: Lamborghini Aventador destroyed by fire without apparent cause

    here is my theory:

    Car makers are not that stupid, they won't design something that will easily goes up in flames. But they probably assumed something that wasn't happening in the real world.

    Most supercars are confined to road use, most of the time in traffic, they engine isn't stressed to the max so not a lot of heat are produced, at low and normal speed the cooling system is enough to cool the engine. No fire.

    During spirited drives on tracks, the engine will be stressed to the max, a lot of heat but there is also a lot of airflow to cool the radiators, plus there are the cool down laps that helps cool the engine. No fire.

    During spirited drives on public roads, the engine are stressed a lot and a lot of heat are produced, but in the real world there won't be a lot of chances to do cool down 'laps', so a lot of the heat still remains when the car has to slow down to normal speed or even stopped at traffic lights, the cooling system is overwhelmed. Fire.

    The cooling systems are probably designed to be just enough to save weight, so they probably didn't design an oversized system to cool 100% of the engine heat when doing only legal speed limit and the engine is only lightly stressed and producing a fraction of the max heat.

    From an engineering perspective, they probably assumed when the engine is stressed a lot, the car will be on a track with increased airflow and the benefit of a cool down lap, and when the car is doing legal speed, the engine will not be stressed and not a lot of cooling is needed.


    Re: Lamborghini Aventador destroyed by fire without apparent cause

    Having talked to various people involved in development, I still think that in most cases, the owners are to blame. They don't pay attention to details like small damages when parking, etc. 


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S (June 2012 delivery), Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe PP/DP, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


     
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