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    Re: 991.2 and future models Thread Closed

    Actually on second thought, Fiat still wins out, forgot I have a Jeep also. 3-2.


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    Re: 991.2 and future models Thread Closed

    Whoopsy:
    reginos:
    Milanno:
    reginos:
     

    We helped you see beyond the hype Smiley

    Now you need to help Whoopsy too, since he is buying more and more Ferrari`s lately Smiley Luckily, LaF was out of his reach, so 918 Spyder ended up in his garage Smiley


    -

    The exception that proves the rule.

    Actually the LaF wouldn't be instead of the 918 but in addition to the Porsche. You see he has a lot of  $pace in his garage Smiley

     

    Talking about any one I know? Smiley

    The RS is coming very soon and I will have 2 of each brand, no favourites haha.

    Enjoy them all my friend Smiley


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: 991.2 and future models Thread Closed

    Joost:
    RC,
    Nowadays, the 911 top models are positioned as 488/huracan competitors.
    If they introduce the 960, wouldnt that degrade the 911 line-up, essentially pushing it into m3 territory or so? And then... where would they position the pany coupe? It would naturally also compete with the m3/m5?

    This is actually something I do not get (and yes, you are right, they are considered competitors).

    Maybe I am overlooking something and yes, maybe a "960" (mid-engined Porsche as a R8, Huracan, 488, etc. competitor) wouldn't make sense financially but looking at the competition, I really think a mid-engined Porsche super sports car in the 200-250k EUR price range would make a lot of sense. Would it be profitable? I don't have a clue but to be honest, I'm not even sure it needs to be highly profitable because such a car would be a very nice image carrier for Porsche. As long as there is an Audi R8 however, I'm not sure VW Group would green-light a "960" (which btw. was rumored to have been getting the green light for development/production last year but I haven't heard anything anymore about it Smiley).


    --

     

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

     


    Re: 991.2 and future models Thread Closed

    RC:
    JEANTET:

    Time for 960?

    In my book, Porsche lacks two essential models for the brand:
     

    1. Some sort of Panamera Coupe (but much more stylish and refined)

    2. A mid-engined R8, Huracan, 488 competitor

    I do not know if these cars make sense financially but this is what I would expect to see from Porsche.

    Well RC - If the rumors that I heard are true (and there is no reason to think otherwise) #2 will become a reality...in the fullness of time.


    Re: 991.2 and future models Thread Closed

    reginos:
    pmarkow:

    i can tell you why certain people still buy the turbo s over the 488. ferrari has the image of the filthy rich and the 911 is after all a volkswagen derivative. there is a certain social threshold to cross in some people's minds before they 'dare' to buy a ferrari even if the financial difference to the turbo s is - in some markets - totally negligible. also the quality control of ferrari in the past does not help to build up a positive reputation with non-experts. some people do not follow the developments closely and still think that ferraris are beautiful pieces of italian junk while they think of porsches as real german quality products. reality is of course different, modern ferraris are at least as reliable as modern porsches, actually my 458 had no issues for two years (except the broken front lifter after two weeks of ownership) and the same holds for the cars of some of my friends while my 911's all gave me serious headaches - in fact my 997.2 C4S was precisely the piece of junk previous ferraris (up to the 360) were.

    other than that i cannot think of any reason why anyone would prefer a non-GT 911 over the 488. 

    cheers peter

    True, Ferrari has an image problem as every dumb footballer and pimp has had one at some stage in his career SmileySmiley

    911 a VW derivative? Only if someone has been in a coma for the last 25 years.

     

    if you don't agree that the 911 is originally a VW beetle derivative than you should study history of automobiles.

     

    Generally speaking I trust German engineering as the more thorough than anything coming from Italy. Having said that, I agree that modern Ferrari are technically advanced and well made and that some German cars have had serious design/reliability issues. However, the average Porsche successfully covers 10 times the mileage of a Ferrari in any given time period, with plenty of abuse too.

    On the road and in the real world I don't think a Ferrari has anything more to offer compared to a top Porsche besides the extrovert styling (a plus and also a minus depending on the person's view) and satisfying the noise fetish of some owners whilst acoustically annoying the rest of the people.

    It is an omission in the Porsche range that they are not exactly represented in the 458/488 category. The Ferrari have had this class for their own since they practically play alone. The awaited Porsche 960 cannot come soon enough.

     

     

     


    Re: 991.2 and future models Thread Closed

    RC:
    Joost:
    RC,
    Nowadays, the 911 top models are positioned as 488/huracan competitors.
    If they introduce the 960, wouldnt that degrade the 911 line-up, essentially pushing it into m3 territory or so? And then... where would they position the pany coupe? It would naturally also compete with the m3/m5?

    This is actually something I do not get (and yes, you are right, they are considered competitors).

    Maybe I am overlooking something and yes, maybe a "960" (mid-engined Porsche as a R8, Huracan, 488, etc. competitor) wouldn't make sense financially but looking at the competition, I really think a mid-engined Porsche super sports car in the 200-250k EUR price range would make a lot of sense. Would it be profitable? I don't have a clue but to be honest, I'm not even sure it needs to be highly profitable because such a car would be a very nice image carrier for Porsche. As long as there is an Audi R8 however, I'm not sure VW Group would green-light a "960" (which btw. was rumored to have been getting the green light for development/production last year but I haven't heard anything anymore about it Smiley).


    --

     

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

     

    Well, from that perspective, I can answer the question for the 960: The R8 is a supersportscar, but is not very flashy. The Ferrari also caters towards a certain image. I think image wise, there is room between the Ferrari/Lamborghini crowd and the R8; that of the supersportscar that is gorgeous and timeless to see, without shouting "look at me!!!". So, I think the 960 would sell big time, probably mostly competing with the medium/high-end McLarens? It is more the question; where does it leave the 911 line-up?


    --

    Porsche, seperates LeMans from LeBoys

    Re: 991.2 and future models Thread Closed

    RC:
    Joost:
    RC,
    Nowadays, the 911 top models are positioned as 488/huracan competitors.
    If they introduce the 960, wouldnt that degrade the 911 line-up, essentially pushing it into m3 territory or so? And then... where would they position the pany coupe? It would naturally also compete with the m3/m5?

    This is actually something I do not get (and yes, you are right, they are considered competitors).

    Maybe I am overlooking something and yes, maybe a "960" (mid-engined Porsche as a R8, Huracan, 488, etc. competitor) wouldn't make sense financially but looking at the competition, I really think a mid-engined Porsche super sports car in the 200-250k EUR price range would make a lot of sense. Would it be profitable? I don't have a clue but to be honest, I'm not even sure it needs to be highly profitable because such a car would be a very nice image carrier for Porsche. As long as there is an Audi R8 however, I'm not sure VW Group would green-light a "960" (which btw. was rumored to have been getting the green light for development/production last year but I haven't heard anything anymore about it Smiley).


    --

     

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

     

    I think there's room for both. A modern 928 (Panamera Coupe) to compete against the Mercedes S63 Coupe and BMW M6 (and maybe the long rumoured A8 Coupe) and at the very top end against the Bentley GT (and at the lower end I guess against the Bentley Speed 6. You could have the Audi, Bentley and Porsche all on the same architecture and probably have more than 60-70% of that niche. 

    A 960 would probably fit stylistically between a R8 and the Ferrari/McLaren. I think you could have it compete more against the 650LT and 488 Speciale (when it comes out) and less against the R8 (let alone R8plus). A carbon tub that was shared between it, the R8 at the low end and the Hurracan replacement on the top end would make financial sense for VW. 


    --

    Past-President, Porsche Club of America - Upper Canada Region


    Re: 991.2 and future models Thread Closed

    The 960 is a no-brainer for the Porsche product planners. I wonder why they haven't given the green light yet.

    Of course it will be profitable. If the 488 can make a profit why not the 960 with the benefit of the larger economies of scale within the VW Group.

    Styling wise it will be more of a classic shape (a la 918) rather than a provocative full exotic one like the Italian brands.

    It will be unique with its low centre of gravity flat 8.

    Offering both RWD and AWD will add to its appeal in the class.

    The R8? That is an aberration in the Audi range. Audi cannot deprive such a car from Porsche because someone in Audi decided to get ambitious 10 years ago.

     


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: 991.2 and future models Thread Closed

    pmarkow:
     

     

    if you don't agree that the 911 is originally a VW beetle derivative than you should study history of automobiles.

    The 356 was based on the Beetle (another Ferdinand Porsche design) flat 4, air cooled rear engined.

    The original 911 had a rear flat 6 still air cooled and tricky to handle but the increase in wheelbase as from 1965 changed the handling substantially.

    The modern era 911s starting from the 996 became liquid cooled and lost the old rear engine vices. Especially the 991 with its longer wheelbase  and the move of the engine further front is as removed from the VW Beetle as any other car.

    The link between a modern 911 to a Beetle is very remote but nevertheless the connection has remained in the popular culture.


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: 991.2 and future models Thread Closed

    @Reginos - the increase in wheelbase on the 911 happened in model year 1969 , when also the first mechanical fuel injection was introduced (MFI). Very correct on the handling between SWB and LWB , the SWB was/is a much more tricky 911 to drive.


    Re: 991.2 and future models Thread Closed

    m4ever:

    @Reginos - the increase in wheelbase on the 911 happened in model year 1969 , when also the first mechanical fuel injection was introduced (MFI). Very correct on the handling between SWB and LWB , the SWB was/is a much more tricky 911 to drive.

    1969 thank you!

    I haven't done my history revision lately Smiley


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: 991.2 and future models Thread Closed

    Whoopsy:
    RC:
     

    I still don't quite see the 991 Turbo S as a direct competitor to the mid engine cars like R8 and 488. Pricing wise it has gotten up there with them, but in a few markets they are still cheaper. Practicality and discreet styling are still the Porsche's strong points. 

     

    Well, in the only market where you can really use the performance of the cars the turbo S costs as much as the 488 or the McLaren... What does that tell you? Relative pricing in the speed limited countries might be different - but you cannot really really use sports cars there except for showing off Smiley


    Re: 991.2 and future models Thread Closed

    But of course, Ferrari is a car for show offs in most cases. Not many owners would ever drive them as they are intended. 


    Re: 991.2 and future models Thread Closed

    WAY:

     Not many owners would ever drive them as they are intended. 

    Except FF. Most owners beat crap out of that car in any way and surprisingly a lot of those guys use FF as daily-driver Smiley 


    --

    My new blog with automotive & motorcycle renders: tessoart.blogspot.com


    Re: 991.2 and future models Thread Closed

    Cause that car depreciate like crazy even when not driven, so why not drive the crap out of it. 

    Heck, I even haul trash down to the depot with it.


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    Re: 991.2 and future models Thread Closed

    Whoopsy I didnt expected less from you  At the end of the day FF is really usable beast kiss


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    My new blog with automotive & motorcycle renders: tessoart.blogspot.com

     


    Re: 991.2 and future models Thread Closed

    The U.S. Is not one of those speed limited countries where you can use a sports car. Trust me. There are many wide open spaces and very little law enforcement. There are also many stretches of road where driving the limit is almost insane like most of the drive to the lake thought the Ozark mountains. I am very glad my turbo is so quiet. 


    Re: 991.2 and future models Thread Closed

    pmarkow:
    reginos:
    pmarkow:

    i can tell you why certain people still buy the turbo s over the 488. ferrari has the image of the filthy rich and the 911 is after all a volkswagen derivative. there is a certain social threshold to cross in some people's minds before they 'dare' to buy a ferrari even if the financial difference to the turbo s is - in some markets - totally negligible. also the quality control of ferrari in the past does not help to build up a positive reputation with non-experts. some people do not follow the developments closely and still think that ferraris are beautiful pieces of italian junk while they think of porsches as real german quality products. reality is of course different, modern ferraris are at least as reliable as modern porsches, actually my 458 had no issues for two years (except the broken front lifter after two weeks of ownership) and the same holds for the cars of some of my friends while my 911's all gave me serious headaches - in fact my 997.2 C4S was precisely the piece of junk previous ferraris (up to the 360) were.

    other than that i cannot think of any reason why anyone would prefer a non-GT 911 over the 488. 

    cheers peter

    True, Ferrari has an image problem as every dumb footballer and pimp has had one at some stage in his career SmileySmiley

    911 a VW derivative? Only if someone has been in a coma for the last 25 years.

     

    if you don't agree that the 911 is originally a VW beetle derivative than you should study history of automobiles.

    The current 911 is as much a VW beetle derivate as a derivate of a Porsche tractor. Smiley

     

    Generally speaking I trust German engineering as the more thorough than anything coming from Italy. Having said that, I agree that modern Ferrari are technically advanced and well made and that some German cars have had serious design/reliability issues. However, the average Porsche successfully covers 10 times the mileage of a Ferrari in any given time period, with plenty of abuse too.

    On the road and in the real world I don't think a Ferrari has anything more to offer compared to a top Porsche besides the extrovert styling (a plus and also a minus depending on the person's view) and satisfying the noise fetish of some owners whilst acoustically annoying the rest of the people.

    It is an omission in the Porsche range that they are not exactly represented in the 458/488 category. The Ferrari have had this class for their own since they practically play alone. The awaited Porsche 960 cannot come soon enough.

    I fully agree with that. I do not understand what is going on but a "960" is overdue. Unless of course Porsche succeeds in making the next gen 911 Turbo/S as attractive as the 488 (it would be possible if they do it right, it would need to be visually much different than the 911 Carrera though).


    --

     

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

     


    Re: 991.2 and future models Thread Closed

    RC:
    if you don't agree that the 911 is originally a VW beetle derivative than you should study history of automobiles.

    The current 911 is as much a VW beetle derivate as a derivate of a Porsche tractor. Smiley:

    I thought the same thing but if you look at the technical definition of being "derived" from (Oxford) the guy is correct, all 911s are based on the original Beetle concept in terms of rear engine and body shape/packaging aren't they ?

     (derive something from) Base a concept on an extension or modification of (another concept):


    --

     


     

    997 GT2 2014 3.9 Mezger, 800PS @ 1.0 bar


    Re: 991.2 and future models Thread Closed

    RC:

    The current 911 is as much a VW beetle derivate as a derivate of a Porsche tractor. Smiley

     

    Even the current VW Beetle has nothing to do with the original...


    --

    73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550


    Re: 991.2 and future models Thread Closed

    One could successfully argue that the current 911 is more similar to the original Beetle than the current Beetle is.

     


    Re: 991.2 and future models Thread Closed

    KMM:

    One could successfully argue that the current 911 is more similar to the original Beetle than the current Beetle is.

    Smiley This however, is true. 


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: 991.2 and future models Thread Closed

    RC:
    KMM:

    One could successfully argue that the current 911 is more similar to the original Beetle than the current Beetle is.

    Smiley This however, is true. 

    i thought the word 'derive' is clear.


    Re: 991.2 and future models Thread Closed

    RC:
    JEANTET:

    Time for 960?

    In my book, Porsche lacks two essential models for the brand:
     

    1. Some sort of Panamera Coupe (but much more stylish and refined)

    2. A mid-engined R8, Huracan, 488 competitor

    I do not know if these cars make sense financially but this is what I would expect to see from Porsche.

    Fully agree Smiley But no V6 TT please it woul have to be  V8 atmo with exotic looks and made in small nunbers like Huracan or 488. Panamera Coupe is also a must to compete with AM and Bentley with Top of the range being a V12.


    --

    J.Seven

    997.2 Cab 2S

    Maserati Quattroporte Sport GTS

    BMW X6 4.0D

     


    Re: 991.2 and future models Thread Closed

    If Porsche decides to put a V6 in a "960" or "928 successor", I will not consider buying it. These cars need at least a V8, no matter if n/a or turbo charged but a V6 would be a no go for me, sorry.

    Just ask Porsche how well the switch from a V8 to the V6 TT went in the Panamera and Cayenne (especially GTS). Smiley

    Btw: Today, I listened to a new Mercedes E63 AMG (2015 model) accelerating (I was in my 991 GTS Cab with open top). Quite disappointing. Yes, there was a hint of a V8 but barely noticeable. Has Mercedes muted the E63? Smiley The AMG GT S I listened to last week sounded much better and aggressive.


    --

     

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

     


    Re: 991.2 and future models Thread Closed

    IMO if they made a 960, that particular model wouldn't be a huge money maker, it would be a branding exercise more than anything to make a statement for the market and to the competition. Which means Porsches current ever-expanding market model would have to grow on both sides of the scale to balance that out. By that logic maybe the Panamera junior would be the offset to the 960, balancing the marques overall fleet emissions, earnings, market, etc, etc. Maybe I'm wrong here but I think these two models would have to exist at the same time to bring about the kind of growth Porsche has been working towards, maybe even the Pan Jr. arriving first to produce the R&D money they might need to make the 960 as special as it should be. 


    Re: 991.2 and future models Thread Closed

    High revving V6 NA + some light hybrid tech could be very acceptable for 960. You would get powerful car with low CO2 and silly low consumption. Same solution could be shared with other Porsche models. 

    In that way 960 could be very competitive and profitable model kiss


    --

     

    My new blog with automotive & motorcycle renders: tessoart.blogspot.com

     


    Re: 991.2 and future models Thread Closed

    Milanno:

    High revving V6 NA + some light hybrid tech could be very acceptable for 960. You would get powerful car with low CO2 and silly low consumption. Same solution could be shared with other Porsche models. 

    In that way 960 could be very competitive and profitable model kiss

    I would not buy such a car. These cars sound and feel like crap, sorry to say that. Smiley

    The reason Porsche tries to lower CO2 output and fleet consumption is very clear: So they do not have to use Mickey Mouse engines (this is what a friend called these new engines... Smiley) in their top models.

    Also, there is a strong rumor that Porsche is developing new smaller capacity V8 engines with a much better CO2 output and consumption. They know that their customers won't be satisfied with Mickey M...ehmm...V6 engines. Smiley


    --

     

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

     


    Re: 991.2 and future models Thread Closed

    Why not just boost 4.0 to the moon for 960?

    Porsche is famous for big performance out of 6cyl 'only'


    Re: 991.2 and future models Thread Closed

    Milanno:

    High revving V6 NA + some light hybrid tech could be very acceptable for 960. You would get powerful car with low CO2 and silly low consumption. Same solution could be shared with other Porsche models. 

    In that way 960 could be very competitive and profitable model kiss


    --

     

    My new blog with automotive & motorcycle renders: tessoart.blogspot.com

     

    No  hybrid allowed in GTE, so if this car was to be the homologation car for the motorsport version, it would have to comply with the regs.  If these rumors are true, expect to see turbo(s).


     
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