Crown

Board: Porsche - 911 - 996 Language: English Region: Worldwide Share/Save/Bookmark Close

Forum - Thread


    Guess what the best selling Porsche is today. It is very

    revealing.

    According to a R&T article by Porsche enthusiast Paul Frere the 4S Cabrio with Tiptronic is the best seller. Apparently it is worrisome to Porsche since it is the "heaviest, slowest and least agile 911."

    Now what can conclude from this bit of information?

    Re: Guess what the best selling Porsche is today. It is very

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Now what can conclude from this bit of information?



    a) Porsche sells cars now to a much wider audience than before. Obviously the hardcore enthusiast is not their target audience anymore. Porsche wants to be another Merc.

    b) The car you are referring to needs to be rebadged: Carrera4 S36 AMG That will make it easier to recognize the competition

    Now, the above are true. It is your choice whether you like it or not. Myself, I have real difficulty accepting this new reality. I can not see the value in Porsche cars anymore.

    Re: Guess what the best selling Porsche is today. It is very

    Lots of posers everywhere?

    Re: Guess what the best selling Porsche is today. It is very

    Well I'd just say its astute business. Sculpting a model range to serve all canavassable/profitable interest in it.

    Granted brand extension is a risky proposition...but whether the moldy figs like it or not, PAG has weathered this most recent recession rather better than any prior.

    For the pure enthusiast the GT/GT2/GT3RS/GT3....right through to those who take their 911 experience a little tempered...the C4S cabrio with tiptronic.

    I'd rather a Porsche that was a sustainable generator of value...than one that has repeated near death experiences..aka Lotus or Aston Martin (pre-Ford).

    Re: Guess what the best selling Porsche is today. It is very

    I alluded to this phenomenon in an earlier post. The younger affluent generation has different priorities than the hardcore Porsche enthusiast that frequent this and other boards. Tracking and racing on public streets is not their thing. What is important is styling, comfort, some performance with a certain amount of exclusivity especially if they are going to spend $100,000 on a car.

    The reason why this raises red flags at Porsche is other manufacturers are entering this market offering all of the above and Porsche basic marketing edge of performance for the money is not as important to the future sport car buying public.

    I just smile when I read how Ferrari, MB or Porsche trumpet that their cars that will do over 190mph and thus you should pay a premium for it. Hell, you might as well tell me that the car will also lay gold eggs for all the good it will do me.

    Re: Guess what the best selling Porsche is today. It is very

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    What is important is styling, comfort, some performance with a certain amount of exclusivity especially if they are going to spend $100,000 on a car.



    I think you just described the AMV8.

    Re: Guess what the best selling Porsche is today. It is very

    Quote:
    Dimitris said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Now what can conclude from this bit of information?



    a) Porsche sells cars now to a much wider audience than before. Obviously the hardcore enthusiast is not their target audience anymore. Porsche wants to be another Merc.

    b) The car you are referring to needs to be rebadged: Carrera4 S36 AMG That will make it easier to recognize the competition





    " S36 AMG" badging would innaccurate as it doesn't have anywhere near the sheer straight line speed of the AMG supercharged V8 55s . The near 4000 lb Tip C4S Cab is more like a Porsche version of an "SL 360 Sport" .

    Re: Guess what the best selling Porsche is today. It is very

    Quote:
    Dimitris said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Now what can conclude from this bit of information?





    a) Porsche sells cars now to a much wider audience than before. Obviously the hardcore enthusiast is not their target audience anymore. Porsche wants to be another Merc.

    b) The car you are referring to needs to be rebadged: Carrera4 S36 AMG That will make it easier to recognize the competition

    Now, the above are true. It is your choice whether you like it or not. Myself, I have real difficulty accepting this new reality. I can not see the value in Porsche cars anymore.



    Above is true? Not!
    Let me see: there is the Porsche GT3, there is the Porsche GT3 RS, there is the Porsche GT2 and there is the Porsche Carrera GT. Porsche doesn't care about hardcore enthusiasts anymore? You really must be kidding.

    Now let me see something regarding the C4 S Cab(!):
    it does the Hockenheim Kleiner Kurs (which is a track where power doesn't count too much but a good setup) in 1 min. 17,4 sec. For comparison: the BMW M3 E46 does it slightly slower in 1 min. 17,6 sec. Don't forget that we're comparing it with the 996 C4 S Cab(!).
    You want to compare it to Mercedes? Well, here we go: the SL55 AMG with 500 HP needs 1 min. 18,4 seconds, one second more. Again: we're talking about a car with 180 HP more. Also interesting: the SLK 32 AMG which is lighter than the 996 C4 S Cab by more than 100 kg(!) is also 1 second slower. And it has 34 HP more than the Porsche 996 C4 S Cab.

    Conclusion: I don't know what you smoked lately but there are definetely enough cars for the hardcore Porsche enthusiasts out there. But these cars don't drive by themselves, you have to learn how to drive them.

    Re: Guess what the best selling Porsche is today. It is very

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Quote:
    Dimitris said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Now what can conclude from this bit of information?





    a) Porsche sells cars now to a much wider audience than before. Obviously the hardcore enthusiast is not their target audience anymore. Porsche wants to be another Merc.

    b) The car you are referring to needs to be rebadged: Carrera4 S36 AMG That will make it easier to recognize the competition

    Now, the above are true. It is your choice whether you like it or not. Myself, I have real difficulty accepting this new reality. I can not see the value in Porsche cars anymore.



    Above is true? Not!
    Let me see: there is the Porsche GT3, there is the Porsche GT3 RS, there is the Porsche GT2 and there is the Porsche Carrera GT. Porsche doesn't care about hardcore enthusiasts anymore? You really must be kidding.

    Now let me see something regarding the C4 S Cab(!):
    it does the Hockenheim Kleiner Kurs (which is a track where power doesn't count too much but a good setup) in 1 min. 17,4 sec. For comparison: the BMW M3 E46 does it slightly slower in 1 min. 17,6 sec. Don't forget that we're comparing it with the 996 C4 S Cab(!).
    You want to compare it to Mercedes? Well, here we go: the SL55 AMG with 500 HP needs 1 min. 18,4 seconds, one second more. Again: we're talking about a car with 180 HP more. Also interesting: the SLK 32 AMG which is lighter than the 996 C4 S Cab by more than 100 kg(!) is also 1 second slower. And it has 34 HP more than the Porsche 996 C4 S Cab.

    Conclusion: I don't know what you smoked lately but there are definetely enough cars for the hardcore Porsche enthusiasts out there. But these cars don't drive by themselves, you have to learn how to drive them.



    Have you been lately in Cali? Don't think so. Otherwise you would know that no one smokes anything here anymore

    I think you are arguing with me on points I never made. I do not think you understood Nick's post either. Here we go:

    "Let me see: there is the Porsche GT3, there is the Porsche GT3 RS, there is the Porsche GT2 and there is the Porsche Carrera GT. Porsche doesn't care about hardcore enthusiasts anymore?"

    Didn't say they dont' care. I said their target audience is not. Apples and oranges ... Nick's post is about the best selling 996 variant. Not about the only one that sells.

    GT3s and GT3RSs (even though they do not come in the US) are great sports cars. Selling at about, hmm, what? 3% of the total 996 sales? GT3s came here in the US at the end of the 996 lifecycle selling at a very high premium compared to the base model.

    Porsche still makes great sports cars. But their target audience is the "GT" market nowdays. That's what they care the most. That's how they make the most $$$. But my perspective is the buyer's perspective. I want the best product at the best price

    "Hockeheim and Ring lap times"

    Thanks God, I can browse the Internet and figure that out myself. Well, let's see the counter arguments though:

    a) Most of the miles driven on these cars you mentioned are on streets and freeways. 1 or 2 secs difference at the track does not translate to any appreciable difference where these cars are driven the most.

    b) If you want to talk about track performance, one lap time means nothing to me, anyway. Yes all the 996 variants are faster than the 993 or 964 variants on probably any track (they way the cars leave the factory with no mods). But for how many laps this will last? I mean before the M96 blows up, or starves for oil or the RMS leaks, or the wheel bearings go bad?

    "But these cars don't drive by themselves, you have to learn how to drive them."

    Looking forward for a lesson from a C4S tip cab driver

    Re: Guess what the best selling Porsche is today. It is very

    Quote:
    Dimitris said:
    Obviously the hardcore enthusiast is not their target audience anymore. Porsche wants to be another Merc



    May I remind you about what you said? You didn't say that?

    Regarding Nick and his posts: his posts on Rennteam.com are always provocative. I wonder why he never posts something about this Cayenne, in other car forum(s) he does. I don't say I don't appreciate his posts because they always seem to ignite a passionate discussion but at the same time I really wonder why he owns a Ferrari sportscar but bashes Porsche.
    Maybe I'm wrong but I can't hide the feeling that he is a tease.

    Regarding the C4 S: of course it is the best selling model now because a lot of people know by now that the 997 is coming.
    But maybe you and Nick are right, maybe the target audience wants to buy cars like the C4 S. So what? I don't understand the problem. In Germany, the best selling variant seems to be the 996 C2 right now, does it mean we Germans are more hardcore or better drivers?
    Of course there are different kind of customers right now because Porsche has improved quality and the cars are good daily drivers. But the fact that Ferrari sells less cars doesn't mean that their customers drive faster or better.
    Instead of driving your cars, you guys always complaint, complaint and complaint.
    When do you actually drive your cars?

    Regarding the M96 engine: do you know something I don't know? I never heard of a blown up engine on the track but I heard a lot about drivers who don't maintain the engines right, who use the wrong oil or add stupid oil additives, who drive their cars on slicks or who mod their ECU for a few horses more, etc.
    Porsche quality has improved a lot over the past few years, I started with a 993 Targa and I owned a 996 C2, 996 C4 PK and a 996 Turbo afterwards. Of course the M96 is not the race type bulletproof engine the GT3, GT2 and 996 Turbo have in common. But it is as good as any other 6-cyl engine out there, if not better.

    One lap on the Nuerburgring Nordschleife doesn't mean anything? Wow, you're a great car enthusiast, I can see that by your knowledge.

    C'mon Dimitirs, you don't really want to confirm that nasty prejudice that most Porsche drivers are arrogant?
    Bear in mind one thing: there is always somebody faster than you in a less powerful and less expensive car. You'll learn your lesson too.
    I don't know what car you drive right now but if it is the Boxster S you mentioned in your profile, a 996 C4 S Cab would blow you away like nothing. I didn't say anything about Tiptronic.
    And last but not least (a little sidenote for Nick): I joined the Ferrari Days in Baden-Baden last year. Most of the owners looked grey haired, some with a nice beer belly and I especially loved those who were around age 50-60 and had their daughter with them. Oops, their daughter? I guess I was wrong.

    Please come up with real arguments but not the old prejudices or just using the words other people use on internet forums. From my experience, 80% of the posts on other car forums are full of crap. There are some people who know what they're talking about but during my daily "forum browsing", I can't stop laughing and sometimes I would even prefer to start crying. No wonder Porsche doesn't officially support internet forums.
    Too much gossip and even more BS.

    Re: Guess what the best selling Porsche is today. It is very

    RC let me try this one more time. You falling back to ring time which to the buy public except a few is meaningless. Let me offer an example.

    You walk into an automart and there are two cars YOU LIKE. One is X and the other W. Based on styling, comfort options and exclusivity; X is better. However W can go around the ring faster than X by a good two seconds. Assume the two cars are approximately the same price.

    WHICH WOULD YOU BUY????That in a nut shell is the problem Porsche is dealing with.

    For the slowest Porsche that looks like a turbo Cab. to be the best seller is very telling as to the direction the sport cat market is headed. Look at the MB SLR. It could not hold a candle to the CGT yet that car is in more demand than the CGT. How do you explain that?

    Regarding your comments about Ferrari owners being old and fat, I think when you run out of arguments you get a little nasty.

    Re: Guess what the best selling Porsche is today. It is very

    I really dig the carrera 4s cabrio.For me both the coupé and cabrio are the most beautfill of all the Porsches.Just my opnion.

    As far as ferrari owners being fat and old, i wouldnt mind being fat and old as long as i had a ferrari.

    Cheers People.

    Re: Guess what the best selling Porsche is today. It is very

    Quote:
    nberry said:Regarding your comments about Ferrari owners being old and fat, I think when you run out of arguments you get a little nasty.



    Well, Nick, not everybody can be young and good-looking like you

    Don't you think this reflects simple demographics?

    Persons in older age groups are much more likely to have the resources to purchase a Ferrari. It makes perfect sense that Ferraris are sold to groups other than to only young people with very rich parents. In fact, it is the rich parents who make up a larger part of the market, No? There can be no getting away from the science of who has the means, as well as the motivation, to buy any car that is more than mere transportation.

    Also, those younger people with the means for a Ferrari may be yet hard at work when these events take place. Or, they have young children that take up a lot of their formerly spare time.

    I would expect to see young people without children and older people whose children are grown up at these events, with a bigger portion being older because of income statistics.

    How is that being nasty?

    Re: Guess what the best selling Porsche is today. It is very

    Quote:
    W8MM said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:Regarding your comments about Ferrari owners being old and fat, I think when you run out of arguments you get a little nasty.



    Well, Nick, not everybody can be young and good-looking like you

    Don't you think this reflects simple demographics?

    .
    How is that being nasty?




    Mke I wish I was good looking and young. Maybe that is why I need a Ferrari (psst don't tell my wife)

    To the extent demographics plan a role in this is uncertain. Remember ONLY 1200 Ferrari's are shipped to all of NORTH AMERICA each year. Because the demand is great and the supply extremely limited it is difficult to make a blanket statement you and RC are attempting.

    In many ways I made my own bed on the subject of Porsche. Whatever I write is always interpreted in a negative light. This recent post was in response to an unusual static regarding Porsche. Certainly worthy of discussion and analysis. NOT FLAMES ABOUT OWNERS OF FERRARI'S.

    Finally, Mike you cannot be nasty no matter how hard you try!

    Re: Guess what the best selling Porsche is today. It is very

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Quote:
    Dimitris said:
    Obviously the hardcore enthusiast is not their target audience anymore. Porsche wants to be another Merc



    May I remind you about what you said? You didn't say that?

    Regarding Nick and his posts: his posts on Rennteam.com are always provocative. I wonder why he never posts something about this Cayenne, in other car forum(s) he does. I don't say I don't appreciate his posts because they always seem to ignite a passionate discussion but at the same time I really wonder why he owns a Ferrari sportscar but bashes Porsche.
    Maybe I'm wrong but I can't hide the feeling that he is a tease.

    Regarding the C4 S: of course it is the best selling model now because a lot of people know by now that the 997 is coming.
    But maybe you and Nick are right, maybe the target audience wants to buy cars like the C4 S. So what? I don't understand the problem. In Germany, the best selling variant seems to be the 996 C2 right now, does it mean we Germans are more hardcore or better drivers?
    Of course there are different kind of customers right now because Porsche has improved quality and the cars are good daily drivers. But the fact that Ferrari sells less cars doesn't mean that their customers drive faster or better.
    Instead of driving your cars, you guys always complaint, complaint and complaint.
    When do you actually drive your cars?

    Regarding the M96 engine: do you know something I don't know? I never heard of a blown up engine on the track but I heard a lot about drivers who don't maintain the engines right, who use the wrong oil or add stupid oil additives, who drive their cars on slicks or who mod their ECU for a few horses more, etc.
    Porsche quality has improved a lot over the past few years, I started with a 993 Targa and I owned a 996 C2, 996 C4 PK and a 996 Turbo afterwards. Of course the M96 is not the race type bulletproof engine the GT3, GT2 and 996 Turbo have in common. But it is as good as any other 6-cyl engine out there, if not better.

    One lap on the Nuerburgring Nordschleife doesn't mean anything? Wow, you're a great car enthusiast, I can see that by your knowledge.

    C'mon Dimitirs, you don't really want to confirm that nasty prejudice that most Porsche drivers are arrogant?
    Bear in mind one thing: there is always somebody faster than you in a less powerful and less expensive car. You'll learn your lesson too.
    I don't know what car you drive right now but if it is the Boxster S you mentioned in your profile, a 996 C4 S Cab would blow you away like nothing. I didn't say anything about Tiptronic.
    And last but not least (a little sidenote for Nick): I joined the Ferrari Days in Baden-Baden last year. Most of the owners looked grey haired, some with a nice beer belly and I especially loved those who were around age 50-60 and had their daughter with them. Oops, their daughter? I guess I was wrong.

    Please come up with real arguments but not the old prejudices or just using the words other people use on internet forums. From my experience, 80% of the posts on other car forums are full of crap. There are some people who know what they're talking about but during my daily "forum browsing", I can't stop laughing and sometimes I would even prefer to start crying. No wonder Porsche doesn't officially support internet forums.
    Too much gossip and even more BS.



    "May I remind you about what you said? You didn't say that? "

    You may , but what you said is not what I said. By now I think this should be clear and we can move on. I will move on anyway ...

    "Regarding Nick and his posts"

    I know Nick for a while now. I have followed his posts on other boards as well. I do not agree with Nick on everything and I do not necessarily agree with his way of expressing his views. But he does make very very good points. I hope you can see past his style. I do, even though mine and his perspectives are very different. Nick has seen things about Porsche that others have not. And he pointed out these issues before anyone else. Porsche is a different company now, it plays in a different field, at a different level. The competition is also re-shaping at the moment. You are not going to see all the impact of the changes right away. To put it in a laconic way, I have two words for you: "Aston Martin"

    "But maybe you and Nick are right, maybe the target audience wants to buy cars like the C4 S. So what? I don't understand the problem."

    I do not necessarily have a problem. I expressed my views as a consumer. If Porsche does not care, I will look elsewhere. I am not happy about certain things and I am voicing my opinion, like a conscious consumer should.

    "In Germany, the best selling variant seems to be the 996 C2 right now, does it mean we Germans are more hardcore or better drivers?"

    Maybe more price sensitive?
    I will give you that you are good drivers, mmm, most of you

    "When do you actually drive your cars? "

    In between my posts at Rennteam

    "Of course the M96 is not the race type bulletproof engine the GT3, GT2 and 996 Turbo have in common. But it is as good as any other 6-cyl engine out there, if not better."

    Don't think so. There are several ways to get emperical data for the M96, other than reading posts on the 'Net. Ask the mechanics at the dealerships. You will be surprised what kind of info you can get from them. Also, if you have many friends who also bought Porsches ...

    Sorry to say but I know of several regular engines placed in Japanese street cars that have much higher tolerances than the M96. Pick a Honda 4-banger and do whatever mod you want on it. Or a Toyota per se. These engines last forever, you turbocharge them, you double their HP and they still go and go and go.

    In the old days, of the 964/993 911s, you could add a supercharger to your 911 and the dealer would not even blink.
    Nowdays, they even complain if you put non-Porsche wheels ... They say "this may void the suspension warranty"

    "One lap on the Nuerburgring Nordschleife doesn't mean anything? Wow, you're a great car enthusiast, I can see that by your knowledge"

    Sorry, I am slow learner. That's why I need many laps One will not do.

    "'mon Dimitirs, you don't really want to confirm that nasty prejudice that most Porsche drivers are arrogant?"

    Not only I am arrogant, but a loudmouth as well.

    "a 996 C4 S Cab would blow you away like nothing"

    Not around here unless you want to risk serious trouble with the law. I suggest whenever you come to the US you obey seriously the speed limits as a violation and a cop in bad mood can put you in a whole lotta trouble real fast ...

    Honestly, a Toyota Camry might take you from point A to point B faster than any Porsche. And you do not have to worry about the Camry's motor leaking oil


    "Most of the owners looked grey haired, some with a nice beer belly"

    Hey, my girlfriend told me I am the first good looking guy she has seen driving a Porsche and we do have a large sample here in Los Angeles. Now, how does my statement register with your arrogance meter?

    "No wonder Porsche doesn't officially support internet forums.
    Too much gossip and even more BS"

    Hey, you are just reading one !!!!!

    Re: Guess what the best selling Porsche is today. It is very

    Nick, I never said all Ferrari owners are old and fat, just re-read my post. I just wanted to emphasize that there are grey haired and midlife-crisis affected Ferrari owners too out there, not only Porsche owners.

    And Nick, you still didn't tell me why you start provocative posts over here but ask questions about your Porsche Cayenne somewhere else? Yes, Porsche monitors this site and I'm know they analize comments and use them for marketing evaluation but I'm not sure this is the reason you post here.
    Maybe you just have fun provoking Porsche owners? You know that I'm no poser and your comments sometimes really hurt my ego and I'm sure that others think the same. This doesn't mean you shouldn't post here, god beware, but please try to use a little bit more "tact" in your posts because people who usually join internet forums to discuss about their beloved cars aren't posers but enthusiasts.
    Well, maybe with the exception of those who discuss different car waxes...

    Re: Guess what the best selling Porsche is today. It is very

    Quote:
    RC said:Yes, Porsche monitors this site and I know they analize comments and use them for marketing evaluation, but I'm not sure this is the reason you post here.



    RC, perhaps Nick and Dimitris actually do clandestine work for Porsche. Could they be paid focus-group provocateurs?

    I would guess that Porsche fanatics and loyalists can be found with many different levels of enthusiasm and determination. Some are newly in love with the marque, while others have had many decades of automotive experimentation from which they have made up their minds.

    Perhaps the Porsche marketing department is on the look-out to gauge the reaction of old-timers, and those deeply in love with the brand, as they try to expand Porsche's appeal to a larger segment of the car-buying public. "How can we attract more customers without losing our base?", might be the question.

    Nick and Dimitris are pulling from two different directions against the middle, and maybe they will help Porsche navigate its priorities, depending on our answers.

    Nick likes to point out that Ferraris are more exclusive because they have less market penetration (fewer unit sales) than does Porsche. Fewer Porsche sales would make Nick a happier camper, but won't keep Porsche independent or pay for significant R&D, or tooling for new models, to be desireable enough to catch Nick's eye. Catch 22?

    Dimitris seems to be saying that cars with soul in their driving dynamics are not sufficient to the American driving experience without Japanese-like extra durability margins for brutal owners (born of necessity by the trip to Japan for warranty work). Japanese cars can be very well engineered (I speak as a repeat customer), but of those that are sold on my shores, very few could be said to have any soul. Of those that do, most show me conspicuously less soul than do Porsches. The Acura NSX is one of the few that comes even close. My wife even has a Japanese sewing machine!

    The sweet spot towards which Nick and Dimitris seem to be converging is this: Very few units sold, fantastic desireability, race car handling, pot-hole-proof ride, durability on the order of earth-moving equipment, all at Pacific-rim prices to which they have exclusive access. Do I have it right? Is this even possible in the real world?

    But there might be a price to pay for imparting such nuggets of wisdom to this forum in the style to which Nick and Dimitris have become accustomed. Gleefully pointing out flaws in other people's fondest possesions may be entertaining for some forum readers, but it should come as no surprise that it might be regarded the same way as farting in an elevator. One might receive some disapproving comments.

    So, let's keep on with more of Porsche's marketing-department focus-group discussions. But, perhaps, we can find a way to use less inflamatory sentence constructions.

    P.S. Dimitris, doesn't (two words) "Aston Martin" make GTs and not sports cars? Are they more sporty than a C4S?

    Re: Guess what the best selling Porsche is today. It is very

    Quote:
    W8MM said:
    Gleefully pointing out flaws in other people's fondest possesions may be entertaining for some forum readers, but it should come as no surprise that it might be regarded the same way as farting in an elevator



    Mike, I just wish I could express myself in English as you do because you brought it right up to the point without having to lower yourself to the level of other posts (unfortunately incl. some of mine ).

    Re: Guess what the best selling Porsche is today. It is very

    And Nick, you still didn't tell me why you start provocative posts over here but ask questions about your Porsche Cayenne somewhere else?

    RC once again you have your facts wrong. I did in fact post a question regarding my Cayenne here first. I then posted on your friends site since I believe I received only one response.

    Mike I hear you. Wading through your latest post along with comments from RC the feeling is "please post only good comments regarding Porsche on this forum because it is a prized possession and we prefer the Sgt. Shultz mentalitiy about our possession". I SEE NOTHING: I HEAR NOTHING AND I KNOW NOTHING.


    I will quit posting anything that may be interpreted as nothing but "Gushing and Fawning" over Porsche. We do not want to bruise any ego's. It will make it a very interesting and exciting forum.

    Re: Guess what the best selling Porsche is today. It is very

    Porsche cannot be all things to all people, and the sooner that is accepted, the less we'll be getting into petty scuffles. They as a company, have taken a good look at the standard curve, determined the area which they can cover, and moved it a few deviations to the right. And there's nothing wrong with that. In fact, they've done a remarkable job in maintaining themselves in both image and profitability. They are afterall, the most profitable car company in the world.

    So as it stands, with plethora of favorable comments on Porsche written on this board, I see no reason that negative aspects shouldn't be discussed. Is it constructive to hear the same remarks over and over? Poor Bilal must have really been in a tough spot, when many of us had open target on AMG in recent months.

    Do some people prize their cars so much, that negative comments cause even a drop of...buyer's remorse? If not, no egos should be hurt.

    I'm late for class, gotta run.

    - J

    Re: Guess what the best selling Porsche is today. It is very

    Quote:
    nberry said:Mike I hear you. Wading through your latest post along with comments from RC the feeling is "please post only good comments regarding Porsche on this forum because it is a prized possession and we prefer the Sgt. Shultz mentalitiy about our possession". I SEE NOTHING: I HEAR NOTHING AND I KNOW NOTHING.


    I will quit posting anything that may be interpreted as nothing but "Gushing and Fawning" over Porsche. We do not want to bruise any ego's. It will make it a very interesting and exciting forum.



    Nick, ... there you go again. I only asked for some better manners and you go off-the-handle about no criticism being allowed. Since you greatly over-reacted to the request for tact (not the first time), I am left to assume that you have no intention of being polite. Perhaps you enjoy being rude?

    Immediately reducing a discussion to the lowest triviality only confirms to me that your chosen role on these forums is to be the "skunk at the garden party", without any desire for mature discussion. I hope you will eventually prove me wrong.

    Re: Guess what the best selling Porsche is today. It is very

    Its not the content of what its said but rather how its said or with what intentions its said. Constructive critizism has always been welcomed here, even RC who is a moderator here is very critical sometimes but with respect and manners to Porsche and the other members ideas. I myself have critizised the politics of Porsche related to the RMS issue, or the curb weight, or underpowering and powerkit pricing, or Porsche entering the SUV market, the 997 styling and lack of innovation, and so on and never been told not critizise Porsche or been attacked for it. So that only "nice posts allowed" here is only an excuse to hide behind IMO.

    Re: Guess what the best selling Porsche is today. It is very

    I have been looking desperately for the substance of this thread...
    I must have missed something.

    Re: Guess what the best selling Porsche is today. It is very

    Quote:
    Dr. Carrera said:
    I have been looking desperately for the substance of this thread...
    I must have missed something.



    I think it started as a California fashion tasting.

    Re: Guess what the best selling Porsche is today. It is very

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    I then posted on your friends site since I believe I received only one response.




    My friend's site? I have no friends with forums but I understand.

    Re: Guess what the best selling Porsche is today. It is very

    Quote:
    W8MM said:
    Quote:
    Dr. Carrera said:
    I have been looking desperately for the substance of this thread...
    I must have missed something.



    I think it started as a California fashion tasting.



    Dr Carrera,
    You didn't miss anything. There was no substance. But I think you had realized that!

    Mike,
    I think a Californian Wine tasting would have been so much more fun. The ones I've tried do not leave a bad after-taste.

    fritz

    Re: Guess what the best selling Porsche is today. It is very

    Quote:
    W8MM said:
    Quote:
    RC said:Yes, Porsche monitors this site and I know they analize comments and use them for marketing evaluation, but I'm not sure this is the reason you post here.



    RC, perhaps Nick and Dimitris actually do clandestine work for Porsche. Could they be paid focus-group provocateurs?

    I would guess that Porsche fanatics and loyalists can be found with many different levels of enthusiasm and determination. Some are newly in love with the marque, while others have had many decades of automotive experimentation from which they have made up their minds.

    Perhaps the Porsche marketing department is on the look-out to gauge the reaction of old-timers, and those deeply in love with the brand, as they try to expand Porsche's appeal to a larger segment of the car-buying public. "How can we attract more customers without losing our base?", might be the question.

    Nick and Dimitris are pulling from two different directions against the middle, and maybe they will help Porsche navigate its priorities, depending on our answers.

    Nick likes to point out that Ferraris are more exclusive because they have less market penetration (fewer unit sales) than does Porsche. Fewer Porsche sales would make Nick a happier camper, but won't keep Porsche independent or pay for significant R&D, or tooling for new models, to be desireable enough to catch Nick's eye. Catch 22?

    Dimitris seems to be saying that cars with soul in their driving dynamics are not sufficient to the American driving experience without Japanese-like extra durability margins for brutal owners (born of necessity by the trip to Japan for warranty work). Japanese cars can be very well engineered (I speak as a repeat customer), but of those that are sold on my shores, very few could be said to have any soul. Of those that do, most show me conspicuously less soul than do Porsches. The Acura NSX is one of the few that comes even close. My wife even has a Japanese sewing machine!

    The sweet spot towards which Nick and Dimitris seem to be converging is this: Very few units sold, fantastic desireability, race car handling, pot-hole-proof ride, durability on the order of earth-moving equipment, all at Pacific-rim prices to which they have exclusive access. Do I have it right? Is this even possible in the real world?

    But there might be a price to pay for imparting such nuggets of wisdom to this forum in the style to which Nick and Dimitris have become accustomed. Gleefully pointing out flaws in other people's fondest possesions may be entertaining for some forum readers, but it should come as no surprise that it might be regarded the same way as farting in an elevator. One might receive some disapproving comments.

    So, let's keep on with more of Porsche's marketing-department focus-group discussions. But, perhaps, we can find a way to use less inflamatory sentence constructions.

    P.S. Dimitris, doesn't (two words) "Aston Martin" make GTs and not sports cars? Are they more sporty than a C4S?



    Hi Mike, my pleasure to speak with you. I am a customer of yours and I do have better comments to make about your products than I have for the M96

    I will try to answer your points briefly.

    You have it right in many ways, me and Nick are coming from two very different directions but we do have a lot of common points. I am not sure though that there is a product that could satisfy both of us.

    I am not discounting soul in a car but I do not think 996s have a lot of it. Neither I find Nippon cars very exciting except the NSX (we do have something in common after all) and the incredible Evo8 (don't like its style though just like everyone else). After all I do have two German cars in my garage.

    I am the type of car fanatic who can not simply live with whatever the factory gives me. I do have the urge to modify the car. And I do not expect the dealer to warranty my mods either. But I do not need to have some confidence in the car that it will not break that easy. Just like the Japanese cars (in general not all of them) or the older 993/964 911s. Now, who would dare to start making mods on a 996?

    The 996 GT3 does not cut it for me. On top of being a difficult customer, I need the mid-engine as well

    Let me try to summarize what I would consider the ideal car from Porsche. It might as well be a new model line.

    a) Price: Circa $100K, low production numbers can let market determine mark-up. I think Nick may agree with this too.
    b) Styling. I will leave this to Nick. I do love the Boxster styling, but has been produced in huge numbers. Maybe a fusion of the Boxster with the 904? or a modernized 904?
    c) Internals: GT3 Mk2 engine/tranny. In the middle of the car PLEASE !!!!
    d) Suspension: GT3RS
    e) Reliability/maintenance: Porsche, not Ferrari. Perhaps Nick will like this too.

    c) and d) should allow me to use some parts from the Cup cars or the RSR. Perhaps Nick will not like these two. But I think Porsche can easily deliver two variants of the car. One for him and one for me so we can be the only ones driving it in So Cal

    "The sweet spot towards which Nick and Dimitris seem to be converging is this: Very few units sold, fantastic desireability, race car handling, pot-hole-proof ride"

    FYI, I have 450/600 pounds supercup coilovers in my BoxsterS. By now it should be clear what kind of car I would like to drive. Certainly not pot-hole proof ride.

    "Fewer Porsche sales would make Nick a happier camper, but won't keep Porsche independent or pay for significant R&D, or tooling for new models"

    Not really. Just keep selling the "GT-ed" 911s, SUVs or the new 4-door sedan. Accomodate the current customers and get some new ones. No problem here. But can you do something for us, the difficult ones?

    "P.S. Dimitris, doesn't (two words) "Aston Martin" make GTs and not sports cars? Are they more sporty than a C4S? "

    Mike, confusion in this thread is understandable. So many points thrown in at the same time. Yes you are correct. But I was simply referring to the competition that Porsche will face in its main customer target base. I am not interested in any Aston Martin myself, although their styling is nealry perfect.

    "but it should come as no surprise that it might be regarded the same way as farting in an elevator."

    that was kind of graphic and not very polite ...

    PS: I think the new Ford GT40 is what I am looking for? Perhaps?

    Re: Guess what the best selling Porsche is today. It is very

    Quote:
    Dimitris said:
    FYI, I have 450/600 pounds supercup coilovers in my BoxsterS. By now it should be clear what kind of car I would like to drive.

    ........

    PS: I think the new Ford GT40 is what I am looking for? Perhaps?



    Dimitris,

    I see we like some of the same things.

    One of my favorite cars from earlier in my life (before teenage daughters) was a Stoddard-modded 914/6 with big brakes, a 2.8 motor, beefy tranny, and wider wheels.

    I think the Ford GT might be an amazing car, but it is not yet tested or reviewed in a final production condition. It echos the market position of the Ford Pantera, which was quite a car in its day, but I still gravitated to Porsches even then. A few of my car buddies have the Ford GT on their to-buy lists, but it would seem to exceed your $100K bogey.

    Since I trust Porsche, above all, to get driving dynamics right, and there is no such thing as a Boxster Turbo, I've fallen head-long for the Carrera GT. It has everything you and I are looking for, except a modest price.

    I think you and I are tuned to the same channel pretty often.

    Re: Guess what the best selling Porsche is today. It is very

    Mike,

    we do certainly have many things in common. I am very happy you've posted your experience with the 962. This is my dream car, the only super expensive car I really dream of. Not that I do not like the McLaren or the CGT or the Enzo but I do like the cars rough and raw. Perhaps a used F-40 in my future?

    The Ford GT is not tested yet and it does not have any racing linkeage that I know of. Another thing it does not have, is German engineering.
    I could stretch my budget a "little" bit but I have to be sure I would love the car. I do like to keep my cars for a long time.

    Congrats on your CGT, it is the super exotic "Boxster" we've been asking for. I have seen a black one in the flesh. How about a less exotic, Boxster for us, the common people, who can afford the exotic one

    Last but not least, Nick has some good points and I am glad he brought them up. He has a Porsche in his garage and so do I. Means, we do like the brand after all.

    Re: Guess what the best selling Porsche is today. It is very

    Dimitris - I have heard that the Ford GT has rather numb steering and a fairly soft ride for a supercar - you may be disappointed (but I've never driven one, so this is just hearsay)

     
    Edit

    Forum

    Board Subject Last post Rating Views Replies
    Porsche Sticky SUN'S LAST RUN TO WILSON, WY - 991 C2S CAB LIFE, END OF AN ERA 1/19/18 10:13 PM
    throt
    263655 1687
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: New 991.2 GT3 (2017) 1/23/18 8:42 PM
    DaveGordon
    260593 4024
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: 911 GT2 RS (2017) 1/24/18 12:59 AM
    Leawood911
    89759 1401
    Porsche Sticky 992 (Next 911 generation 2019/2020) 1/12/18 7:11 PM
    the-missile
    67527 673
    Porsche Sticky Porsche Mission E - the future of Porsche? 1/3/18 8:32 PM
    CGX car nut
    39875 468
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: New 991.2 Turbo S Exclusive Series (2017) 11/28/17 12:15 AM
    EnglishManInNY
    23926 332
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: New Porsche Carrera T 12/1/17 7:24 PM
    crayphile
    13729 243
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: Porsche 718 GTS models (Oct. 2017) 10/24/17 12:19 PM
    amazon
    7291 19
    Porsche 918 latest news Thread Closed 11/6/17 10:43 AM
    RCA
    548417 5574
    Porsche 991 GT3 RS 1/9/18 1:43 PM
    Kimi
    456625 5816
    Porsche OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S 10/26/17 1:33 PM
    NSXER
    446383 4239
    Porsche OFFICIAL: 2016 Porsche Carrera 911 [991.2] Facelift 3/24/17 12:49 PM
    RCA
    254981 1382
    Porsche OFFICIAL: 911 R (2016) 1/4/18 9:14 PM
    wurlie
    247604 2558
    Porsche 997 GT3 RS 4.0 3/15/17 10:40 PM
    noone1
     
     
     
     
     
    231293 737
    Porsche Cayman GT4 12/30/17 11:07 AM
    Boxster Coupe GTS
    213276 2482
    Porsche 991 GT2 RS (2017) - Rumors, speculations and gossip Thread Closed 7/3/17 2:04 PM
    RCA
    175537 1699
    Porsche The moment I've been waiting for... 11/13/17 2:32 AM
    Pilot
     
     
     
     
     
    165152 874
    Porsche OFFICIAL: New 991.2 Turbo and Turbo S 1/23/18 12:27 AM
    RCA
    164506 1074
    Ferrari 488 GTB/GTS 1/23/18 10:26 PM
    crayphile
    141394 1231
    McLaren McLaren on a winning streak 1/23/18 4:11 AM
    Whoopsy
    139016 2857
    Porsche 991.2 GT3 Thread Closed 3/7/17 11:47 AM
    RCA
    125036 1651
    Porsche Boxster Spyder (981) 12/29/17 8:31 AM
    dreamcar
    110809 692
    Porsche OFFICIAL: New Panamera (2016) 1/6/18 10:41 PM
    Wonderbar
    108111 1284
    Others Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016 model) - Review (updated Feb 13th 2017) 1/18/18 11:38 AM
    RCA
    105677 1869
    Ferrari Ferrari F12 Berlinetta / 599 GTO Successor 12/5/17 3:29 PM
    RCA
    87271 765
    Porsche OFFICIAL: 718 Boxster (2016) 10/20/17 11:17 AM
    DaveGordon
    81722 732
    Others VW caught cheating emissions tests 7/10/17 2:36 PM
    RCA
    81485 861
    Porsche 991 GTS 4/3/17 4:27 PM
    bluelines
    68500 247
    Porsche OFFICIAL: Cayenne (958) Facelift 2014 3/2/17 4:22 PM
    RCA
    67179 163
    Porsche OFFICIAL: New 991.2 (facelift) Carrera 4 and Carrera 4S 3/30/17 7:33 PM
    Carlos from SpainM
    60368 131
    370 items found, displaying 1 to 30.