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    Re: Panamera 4S or Panamera Turbo ?

    BangoO:

    Why is it a wrong choice wonderbar ?

    I'm not rushing, I've been looking for a new car since a year...

    Maybe because you don't really need a new car because you are actually happy with your 997? Smiley

    I think Wonderbar is right.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2012), Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: Panamera 4S or Panamera Turbo ?

    Reason for 4GTS are AWD, PDK (I do lots and lots of city driving and traffic jams), and alcantara...

    Now you guys are right, 991S prices are not that far from 100k now... seriously, can I drive it on snow with snow tyres almost as well as a 4S ?


    Re: Panamera 4S or Panamera Turbo ?

    Hi BangoO.  My advice about the GTS was based on:

    1.  The GTS is just a variant of the car you have now.  Stiffer, a bit "more sporty" but I think you will be spending your money on a marginally different car that in some ways is more uncomfortable to drive. The marginal difference is just not enough to go to all the trouble of changing, buying,  registering, insuring, etc.   

    2.  You seem a bit frantic about your choices, jumping around from idea to idea.  Believe me, I understand this approach, as i have acted like this on many occasions.  But i have found, for me personally, that it helps to settle myself down and let a better solution emerge.  Probably sounds preachy, but that's my advice.  You may find that if you wait a bit  good 991 will appear, and that will be a true change worth the effort.

    Good luck.  We are all so fortunate to be considering all the wonderful Porsche options...


    Re: Panamera 4S or Panamera Turbo ?

    BangoO:

    Reason for 4GTS are AWD, PDK (I do lots and lots of city driving and traffic jams), and alcantara...

    Now you guys are right, 991S prices are not that far from 100k now... seriously, can I drive it on snow with snow tyres almost as well as a 4S ?

    The AWD is not that much of an advantage in the 911 than in other cars. The rear engine design provides amazing traction capabilities. I had a 997.1 I drove on winter tires in winter time and never had any traction issues. The only limit was the ground clearance, which is an issue on all 911 models, 2WD or 4WD.

    Only the turbo charged models of the 911 are a different story because of the massive torque buildup.

    So if I were you and money is an issue, I would get a 991 Carrera with PDK or maybe even a Carrera S. If you wait another year, there should be more slightly used (dealer showcars/loaners, etc.) 991 AWD models on the market and the prices should drop further.

    Do not get another 997, you will regret it sooner or later.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2012), Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: Panamera 4S or Panamera Turbo ?

    Thx I really appreciate your advice guys !

    I have also checked the 997.2 Turbo PDK and it's the same price as a 991 CS... I would not really be able to use the power, but we love how the turbo looks, and it's my dreamcar !

    Any thoughts ?

    Which one would depreciate the most between the turbo and the 991 (35.000kms / year) ?

    Again, thank you so much everyone, this is really helpfull !

     


    Re: Panamera 4S or Panamera Turbo ?

    The 997 Turbo would make 100% more sense than a GTS. The power is always a delight but maintenance cost (and especially repair cost) is much higher for the Turbo. Keep that in mind.

    The depreciation of the 997 Turbo is quite small right now but it will change with the introduction of the new 991 Turbo this year. Be careful. I would get a 997 Turbo after the 991 Turbo has been introduced because the markets will be flooded with used 997 Turbo sooner or later.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2012), Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: Panamera 4S or Panamera Turbo ?

    Thx RC, that's good advice indeed... when will the 991 Turbo be introduced ?


    Re: Panamera 4S or Panamera Turbo ?

    Bango, you can find 991 (non S) with few km for around 80 K Eur in Germany (have a look at mobile.de), that is not bad  value.  997 keep depreciating significantly , few weeks ago there was a 997 GTS 4 for sale in France (leboncoin.fr) for 78 K Eur. If it is a daily driver in my opinion the 991 is the far better car .


    --

    911 Club Coupe, 72' 911 Targa 2.4 S, 12' Audi S4 Avant


    Re: Panamera 4S or Panamera Turbo ?

    Thx m4ever, I need to buy it at a Porsche dealer as I want them to take my 997 back.

    But I think you're right, the 991 looks like the best option...


    Re: Panamera 4S or Panamera Turbo ?

    Guys, I've found a 991 CS with all the options I want at a Porsche dealer. Price new is 139k€, it's from 11/11, it has 14.500 kms and is sold 115k€. Is that a good deal ?

    I know it will only be a wild guess, but how much do you think it will be worth in a year with 45-50000 kms ?


    Re: Panamera 4S or Panamera Turbo ?

    I think 115k EUR for a 991 CS Coupe with 14500 km and a new price tag of 139k EUR is a bit too much, I would rather see it at 105k EUR. A Cab would go for 10k more. At least over here in Germany. Depends also on how much you get for yours in return from the same dealer (I suppose).

    The same car after one(???) year and 45-50000 km? Don't be disappointed if I don't see more than 80k. angry

    If you want to do 45-50k km per year, get a different car than the 991. It just isn't worth it, especially if you buy the car. I would rather get a Cayenne S Diesel instead.  Honestly. 


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2012), Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: Panamera 4S or Panamera Turbo ?

    I meant 45-50000kms total, 30-35000kms per year ;-)


    Re: Panamera 4S or Panamera Turbo ?

    BangoO:

    I meant 45-50000kms total, 30-35000kms per year ;-)

    Personally, I usually take off 30% of the new car value in an instant, after the car has been registered. This is why I never buy new cars (on the C63 Coupe I bought, I "lost" only 10k EUR in almost a year, which was quite acceptable).

    Then, after every year of usage, I take off another 10% for the first three years (afterwards, value drops much slower). Of course this is not very scientific but it gives me an idea of what I should expect.

    On used cars, calculation is a bit more difficult but you can check dealer prices and take off at least 5-10k EUR (because dealers usually want to make a deal too) for the car you want to sell. Unless you sell it to a private party, which isn't easy in this price range.

    It is very difficult to predict the value of a car in two years but my guess would be that the 991 CS Coupe will drop more in value the moment the Turbo, the Targa and the GT3 show up. Also the first lease cars will be dropped on the used car market in a year or two and of course a possible facelift could hurt resale value too but I guess this (the facelift) will happen later than in two years.

     


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2012), Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: Panamera 4S or Panamera Turbo ?

    The Porsche dealer is offering me a very good deal on my 997 CS, so I'm seriously considering taking this 991 CS.

    It has the Servotronic plus, is that good or bad ?

    It's from 11/11 and was used as a presentation model for Porsche France, I see that it has been used by french magazines as a test car (I've found it on at list one magazine on youtube)... is that a problem ?

    Finally, is it worth asking for a PIWIS test on a car with PDK ?

    Thx again ! 


    Re: Panamera 4S or Panamera Turbo ?

    The question is, do the options that lead to the MSRP appear worthwhile for you and... in terms of resale value, to the prospective buyer in one year. Whether the sales price appears reasonable or not, most of the dealer´s concession will probably appear in the price figure for your current car.


    Re: Panamera 4S or Panamera Turbo ?

    The dealer offers me an amazing deal on my 997CS (8k€ more than what I could get anywhere else).

    The only issue now is that the car has been used by magazines or testing, which I guess means lots of launch control and track... Is that really an issue (the car has 14.500kms) ?


    Re: Panamera 4S or Panamera Turbo ?

    BangoO:

    The Porsche dealer is offering me a very good deal on my 997 CS, so I'm seriously considering taking this 991 CS.

    It has the Servotronic plus, is that good or bad ?

    It's from 11/11 and was used as a presentation model for Porsche France, I see that it has been used by french magazines as a test car (I've found it on at list one magazine on youtube)... is that a problem ?

    Finally, is it worth asking for a PIWIS test on a car with PDK ?

    Thx again ! 

    Well, I still think the car is a bit overpriced but if your dealer offers good money for your old 997 CS...

    Servotronic plus works just fine on the 991, you shouldn't worry too much.

    The market introduction cars are pretty much OK, I would worry however about the testing because not all car journalists really treat test cars with respect. On the other hand, you still have warranty on this car, right?! 

    I would definitely try to lower the price tag or at least get a set of winter wheels included in the deal.

    My "deal" would be: 110k EUR, set of winter wheels included and the same good price for my used car. I would offer 105k EUR though, so the dealer has some margin to ask for more. Smiley

    Why should they test the car with PiWiS? Smiley If there are software updates available, the dealer can see it in their system. Which would be another point: Make sure they have all the software updates, etc. done before you get the car. Not sure how many there are there but I know of at least one but maybe it has been done already.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2012), Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: Panamera 4S or Panamera Turbo ?

    Ok so...

    Tires and breaks are new, the car will be under warranty the whole time I will own it.

    Thx again RC and the others for your support during this long journey blush


    Re: Panamera 4S or Panamera Turbo ?

     

    It's here !

    It's Basalt black with Quartz grey full leather, here are some of the options: Park assist, PDK, Burmester, Sport exhaust, Homelink, Pack sport chrono plus, PDLS, Tempostat, Servotronic plus, Heating seats, Adaptive plus seats, TPM, Electric roof, Sport steering wheel, etc

    And it's snowing a lot outside, so tomorrow I'll use the 500 Abarth again Smiley


    Re: Panamera 4S or Panamera Turbo ?

    That's one sexy A$$! Many congrats! wink


    --


    Re: Panamera 4S or Panamera Turbo ?

    Congratulations Bango!  Looks terrific--love to see more pics when the weather suits.  You extended yourself a bit and you will be very happy.  Bonne chance...


    Re: Panamera 4S or Panamera Turbo ?

    Finally...congratulations, good choice. Smiley Don't worry about the snow though, only the ground clearance limits the 991 Carrera S, traction should be more than OK in snow.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2012), Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: Panamera 4S or Panamera Turbo ?

    Thx guys !

    RC, this morning even the Abarth could not drive me to work, there was 30 cms of snow no


    Re: Panamera 4S or Panamera Turbo ?

    we got 30 cm Friday but the Cayenne got through, even made the small 50 cm mountain the plow left at the end of the driveway.


    --

    2012 991 C2S -PDK / 2010 997.2 turbo cab manual, sold / 2008 Cayenne GTS Manual /2008 RS 60 sold /04 C4S sold - 08 Cayenne Turbo PDCC sold


    Re: Panamera 4S or Panamera Turbo ?

    Congrats on your  Carrera S Bango.

    I am more or less from the same area as you, and yesterday I have been driving my Carrera S as every other day, it was just a little bit difficult on my  100m drive way, as it is not cleared and slightly uphill  


    --

     997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm


    Re: Panamera 4S or Panamera Turbo ?

    Congratulations Bango , great choice and  beautiful 911. Wish you many happy kms!


    --

    911 Club Coupe, 72' 911 Targa 2.4 S, 12' Audi S4 Avant


    Re: Panamera 4S or Panamera Turbo ?

    CPA4S:

    we got 30 cm Friday but the Cayenne got through, even made the small 50 cm mountain the plow left at the end of the driveway.

    This is why I love the Cayenne... Smiley (living in Bavaria, this is actually the only Porsche which makes really sense over here Smiley)


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2012), Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: Panamera 4S or Panamera Turbo ?

    Thx guys, and thx gnil, I'll test snow driving next winter as the 991 will be our only car this time 


    Re: Panamera 4S or Panamera Turbo ?

    Speaking of snow: We are on a ski vacation in Austria right now and there is tons of snow over here, which is great.
    Today I went to the hotel parking lot because I wanted to drive down to the city to buy some stuff at a pharmacy. A couple of cars further away, there was another Cayenne (I think a Diesel). While I was cleaning the snow off my Cayenne GTS, the owner of the other Cayenne came to me and asked me if I have a shovel. Of course I didn't and at first, I didn't realize why he was asking. After removing the snow from my car, I felt bad about the other guy in the Cayenne and I went to his car to see what is going on. He was stuck, he bottomed out and he couldn't get out of the parking lot (yes, there was and still is a lot of snow there). Since his car looked pretty low to me, I asked him if he raised the suspension to the highest possible level. He looked at me as if I said something completely nuts. I asked again and he told me quite annoyed that he cannot raise the suspension. I looked inside his car and...to my surprise...no air suspension. Ouch.
    Now comes the best part: He ordered the car and claims that his dealer never told him that there is an optional air suspension available which allows to raise the ride height. I couldn't believe it. He didn't look or sound stupid to me, so I was quite amazed how a dealer would sell a Cayenne without mentioning this option. On the other hand, when I buy/order a car, I usually read the brochures very carefully, so I don't miss anything, especially necessary options.

    I felt quite bad for him but I couldn't help. When I returned back, he was gone, so somebody helped him out.

    That said, the air suspension is a must have option if you live/drive in a region with lots of snow. Sometimes even one cm more ground clearance can make a difference.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2012), Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: Panamera 4S or Panamera Turbo ?

    I don't think many Cayenne diesel are sold with the air suspension. It is a pretty pricy option...


     
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