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    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    RC:

    Interesting side note: VW Group boss Müller just proposed to lower and in the end get rid of all Diesel subsidiaries for Diesel fuel and Diesel cars in Germany. Instead, this (tax payer's) money should be invested in ELV subsidiaries. 

    My take on this: VW Group is preparing a huge ELV offensive, so Tesla should be worried.


    Not sure why Tesla should be worried Smiley. The ELV market will become bigger for each year and all cars that can be produced (with good specs, range and charging infra) will be sold.

    And regarding VW, can you point out any model in the VW pipeline that will trump Tesla Model 3 specs regarding range, performance, price and charging infrastructure in the next 3-5 years?

    Secondly... volumes. Can you show anything that indicate that VW (or any other of the German manufacturers) can deliver high volumes from their EV programs the next coming 5 years?

    Yes, there will be a lot of customers who just hate Tesla (like many on this forum) that never will buy one, but there are probably more customers in the target group that see it from a different perspective.

    Every Model 3 produced will be sold. What Tesla really need to achieve is ramp up the production and that we can just wait and see about. Lot's of things lately point in the right direction and I would not be surprised if we will see a ramp up in production next 3-6 months. Yes, that's a DELAY, but what does it matter when the competitors alternative are at least 3 years out? Both in terms of charging infrastructure (that yet doesn't exist for Ionity) and price level for the first released models. I can't see any of the first Audi or VW EV's hitting the market competing with the Model 3 price range and convenience with charging and range. Please provide a link to a source that sho

    A bit off topic (but what isn't)... :)

    On topic of Mission-E - I'm really looking forward to get more info about the production car. I'm however afraid that the specs will not be very impressive when it's unveiled and the charging infrastructure for rapid charging will be very limited initially. Hope I'm wrong.


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    This might be posted somewhere else, but still nice vid for Tesla and 911 lovers:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHhZ9jk-DrU


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    lukestern:
    RC:

    Interesting side note: VW Group boss Müller just proposed to lower and in the end get rid of all Diesel subsidiaries for Diesel fuel and Diesel cars in Germany. Instead, this (tax payer's) money should be invested in ELV subsidiaries. 

    My take on this: VW Group is preparing a huge ELV offensive, so Tesla should be worried.


    Not sure why Tesla should be worried Smiley. The ELV market will become bigger for each year and all cars that can be produced (with good specs, range and charging infra) will be sold.

    And regarding VW, can you point out any model in the VW pipeline that will trump Tesla Model 3 specs regarding range, performance, price and charging infrastructure in the next 3-5 years?

    Secondly... volumes. Can you show anything that indicate that VW (or any other of the German manufacturers) can deliver high volumes from their EV programs the next coming 5 years?

    Yes, there will be a lot of customers who just hate Tesla (like many on this forum) that never will buy one, but there are probably more customers in the target group that see it from a different perspective.

    Every Model 3 produced will be sold. What Tesla really need to achieve is ramp up the production and that we can just wait and see about. Lot's of things lately point in the right direction and I would not be surprised if we will see a ramp up in production next 3-6 months. Yes, that's a DELAY, but what does it matter when the competitors alternative are at least 3 years out? Both in terms of charging infrastructure (that yet doesn't exist for Ionity) and price level for the first released models. I can't see any of the first Audi or VW EV's hitting the market competing with the Model 3 price range and convenience with charging and range. Please provide a link to a source that sho

    A bit off topic (but what isn't)... :)

    On topic of Mission-E - I'm really looking forward to get more info about the production car. I'm however afraid that the specs will not be very impressive when it's unveiled and the charging infrastructure for rapid charging will be very limited initially. Hope I'm wrong.

     

    Model 3 wil not be Tesla's bread and butter car, they are too far out in production number to have meaningful profit. Hard to make a profit when they only made like 700 cars in like 5 months, of course those 700 cars are sold out! And until Tesla can make a deal with the suppliers, the production will still be limited.

    The Model S and Model X are the ones that makes Tesla money, but when the Germans' offering start coming onto market, closes one will be the Mission E next year, the Model S will feel the pinch big time. Either Tesla need to drop the price or increase the content of the car, as the German cars will be having a proper interior instead of a econobox interior like the Model S to properly match the asking price. That's not good.

    Tesla's strength is it's gigafactory, they need to leverage that and enter the commercial market, big trucks and busses needs lots of batteries and they can make a lot of them. Profit margins are better too over there too. Passenger car side is too competitive now with everyone doing it and everyone knows how to mass produce a car.


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    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Model 3 wil not be Tesla's bread and butter car, they are too far out in production number to have meaningful profit. Hard to make a profit when they only made like 700 cars in like 5 months, of course those 700 cars are sold out! And until Tesla can make a deal with the suppliers, the production will still be limited.

    I think you make conclusion all too early. They're delayed a couple of months and that's not much in the scheme of things. I'm aware of all the dooms day predictions, but they are a bit exaggerated. The ramp up will be sorted in due course. The 700 cars you talk about is incorrect. There are 2000+ cars produced and there are as of today quite a few cars piled up at the Fremont delivery center awaiting customer delivery... 

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gjt3xxosqZ8

    The Model S and Model X are the ones that makes Tesla money, but when the Germans' offering start coming onto market, closes one will be the Mission E next year, the Model S will feel the pinch big time. Either Tesla need to drop the price or increase the content of the car, as the German cars will be having a proper interior instead of a econobox interior like the Model S to properly match the asking price. That's not good.

    Eh? Porsche have told the market that they will produce 20.000 Mission-E annually when they ramp-up production. This ramp-up will not take place the first year and initially only low volumes will be produced. Be sure of that.

    When the Mission E is out Tesla will have announced a new and updated version of the Model S with better specs, probably a better interior and what not. Autopilot software will at that point have matured a lot and Musk for sure got some cool new tech in the next gen S/X. It can actually be the other way around that many will prefer the Model S over the Mission E. Probably very few on this forum and other customers brand loyal to Porsche, but there are lot's of other customers who see things different.

    And then charging... Even if Porsche start to build the charging infrastructure it will take several years to reach the convenience level close to Teslas Supercharger Network. The 350kW stations will be few initially and limited number of stalls etc. I'm not saying that they wont sort it but it will take several years. Relying on 3rd parties that build the infrastructure also makes it more complicated for payment and software integration to name a few things.

    Tesla's strength is it's gigafactory, they need to leverage that and enter the commercial market, big trucks and busses needs lots of batteries and they can make a lot of them. Profit margins are better too over there too. Passenger car side is too competitive now with everyone doing it and everyone knows how to mass produce a car.

    Passenger side too competitive? Please show some figures to support that. And no, it wont be enough to just say that a manufacturer launch an EV. We need to see estimated manufacturing volumes since you seem to believe that the German manufacturers will produce big volumes in 3-5 years. Like I've written before, it doesn't matter how many EV's that are produced in 3 years, everyone will be sold.


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Tesla is already 6 month behind 'their' schedule, what makes you think they can actually catch up?

    As far as I know, Mission E, and pretty much all future electric cars will be running 400V/800V charging system, which means they do take advantage of every single charging outlet right now and all future ones. Tesla's can't do 800V period.

    You are drinking too much KoolAid from Elon, perhaps take a few step back and look at the whole picture in the real world, instead of the one Elon described.

    Model S cannot have a new interior unless Tesla make another major cash investment, which they do not have, all their capital are pretty much tied up with the Model 3 and the electric truck. How many times can Tesla tap the capital market without consequences? The debt right now are backed by the sky high stock prices, which Elon has been keen to pop up via vapor ware. Sooner or late the music will stop and the lenders will have exhausted their patience and demand immediate results. 

    Unlike you, I am not biased towards Tesla. I liked electric motors in cars, either hybrid versions or full electric. Heck up until a couple months ago I had a deposit for a Model 3 too. 

    If you haven't noticed, there are way many car makers than truck makers. GO around the block and count, you can't name more than a hand full of truck makers while very likely during that same walk you can find 15-20 different makes of cars. That's called competitive. 


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    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    It's a pointless discussion to continue. We just don't share the same view on this topic and that's fine. And no, I'm not drinking any Elon KoolAid. If you read my posts I'm not sure where you get that from? I'm just giving some thoughts to a really rather unbalanced and skewed view from your end on several topics in here concerning EV's and Tesla. Do you think it would be appropritate if I questioned if you drink the OilAid each time that I don't agree with your view?

    We'll revisit this topic in 3 years. That will be fun Smiley


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    lukestern:
    We'll revisit this topic in 3 years. That will be fun Smiley

    or sooner if the capital markets fall out with Tesla.


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    The funny thing is this part of the discussion is over as soon as Model 3 weekly production ramps up... Could be any week , next month or next year wink


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Call me in 2020 when you can get an outdated Mission E with 220 miles of range ;)


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    noone1:

    Call me in 2020 when you can get an outdated Mission E with 220 miles of range ;)

     

    I am not even close to 220 miles with all my Ferraris, 997 Turbo and Turbo S both can't do it either with the small tank. The SVR also can't do 220 miles. Not the Huracan either. Cayenne Turbo S can just make it. The 918 can easily make that, also the 911R with the big tank, same with the GT3RS with the big tank. The GT3 has the big tank so it can also make 220 miles. The Aston will be lucky to make it to 170 miles. 

    So? There are like 10 gas stations on every corner and takes less than 5 mins to fill up, I can even live with a 100 mile range. Hell, I can do with a 45 mile range and stop 5 times for gas and still get to the destination quicker than a Tesla.

    Oh, btw, the Panamera Turbo S with the hybrid can clear 220 miles easily. 


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    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Autocar article on Porsche Mission E...

    "Porsche Mission E: several variants due to satisfy surging electrified car sales" (Autocar)

    (11 December 2017)

    Porsche is planning to produce a range of Mission E variants to satisfy surging global demand for electrified vehicles, logistics and production boss Albrecht Reimold has confirmed.

    Reimold's growing confidence comes as sales for Porsche's latest electrified model, the Panamera E-Hybrid

    Porsche executives are therefore predicting that the Mission E, the new four-door electric sports-car-saloon, which is due for production by the end of the decade, will hit the ground running, with several versions due to increase its market reach.

    The car, codenamed J1, was closely previewed as the Mission E concept at the 2015 Frankfurt motor show. It will be Porsche’s first bespoke electric car and the start of a fifth model line.

    Although many other car makers are choosing SUVs as their first electric cars for packaging reasons, Porsche has opted for a more low-slung model to show that its electric technology is as much about performance as it is about reducing emissions.

    Porsche R&D boss Michael Steiner confirmed that design work on the model is now complete and very close to the well-received concept. Development mules have completed testing and Porsche has been testing full-body prototype versions of the production car for several weeks.

    The Mission E has yet to be given an official name for production but it will not take the name of the concept, according to Porsche boss Oliver Blume. It is pitched as halfway between a 911 and a Panamera in concept. Indeed, Porsche insiders refer to it as a “four-door sports car”, with Porsche keen to use electric technology on a completely new type of model to bring the brand to more people.

    Steiner said the brief is “a really sporty sports car, a four-seater that’s low on the road, with a low centre of gravity. A car that’s typically Porsche, but electric”.

    The Mission E is Porsche's first step towards electrifying its entire range as part of a Volkswagen Group target of having an electrified version of every model by 2030.

    Porsche has no plans to create an electric version of the 911. The only way to store enough batteries for a viable range would be in the floor and that would mean raising the vehicle, rendering it no longer a sports car in the company’s eyes.

    However, the next-generation 911, targeted for launch in 2018, is being developed with the availability of plug-in hybrid technology. That said, Porsche has yet to decide when to offer a plug-in hybrid 911 to market, if at all. The Mission E’s launch is likely to come first.

    Steiner said the more an electric car has to perform as a sports car, the more weight comes into the equation. “The Mission E is the sweet spot of sports car performance that, size-wise, provides enough space for significant battery packages,” he said.

    The J1’s architecture is a bespoke Porsche development and differs from other electric platforms being engineered within the VW Group. Audi is developing an architecture called C-BEV to be used first on its e-tron SUV next year. The J1 has its batteries much lower in the floor, while the C-BEV is better-suited to higher-riding SUVs. The two architectures use common lithium ion battery technology, though.

    The J1 architecture is also set to underpin Bentley's first electric model at the turn of the decade, using the Speed 6e concept as inspiration in style, if not in size. The Speed 6e is a shorter, two-door sports car.

    As a four-door and dedicated electric car with no requirements for a combustion-engine version, the Mission E doesn’t suffer from any of the packaging problems that Porsche would get from converting an existing model to be purely electric-powered. The concept car used two electric motors – one on each axle – to produce a combined 600bhp and 663lb ft, drawing their power from lithium ion batteries mounted in the floor. The concept car was all-wheel drive, with the front wheels driven mainly to aid the acceleration and the handling remaining rear-biased, with torque vectoring controlling individual wheels.

    The 0-62mph time was quoted at 3.5sec and 0-124mph at less than 12.0sec, despite the concept’s kerb weight of more than 2000kg. Porsche’s electric tech is being developed in-house due to the specific need for an electric Porsche to focus on performance above all else.

    Its Zuffenhausen engineering centre is being expanded to support the new model and Porsche plans to sell around 20,000 Mission Es a year when production is ramped up.

    The firm will offer the Mission E with a range of power outputs and chassis set-ups. “We will offer different levels of performance,” said Blume. “There will be sporty, high-performance versions and a lower-powered one.”

    Porsche plans to equip it with state-of-the-art electronics that permit over-the-air updates to key systems such as the driveline and autonomous driving functions. This means power outputs could be increased remotely.

    The car will also be fitted with an 800V rapid-charging system, which will recharge 80% of the battery in just 15 minutes. Porsche is understood to be working with Hitachi on the technology and is already trialling it with the fitment of two 800V DC fast-chargers at recently opened offices in Berlin.

    Porsche will not look to give the Mission E an overly excessive range because the recharging time is so favourable. As long as the Mission E hits its 500km (310 miles) target, Steiner said, that will be sufficient.

    Adding more range means more battery packs, which increases the weight. Steiner said a slight loss in range would be compensated by faster charging times and Porsche is working with customers to decide exactly what the optimum range should be.

    “For people who don’t need a big daily driving range but do need an occasional longer range, how much is the cost of sacrificing some range for charging time?” said Steiner.

    Further ahead, Porsche is investigating the use of solid-state batteries, which are lighter and more compact than lithium ion cells, as a possible future technology for an all-electric sports car, but production versions are several years away. It has tested the tech in a prototype Boxster, which handled well, but the weight impacted its lap time.

    On the Mission E's styling, Porsche design boss Michael Mauer has described the production version as “a beautiful car”. Speaking more generally about electric cars, he said they gave designers “lots of possibilities”. Mauer added: “So far, electric components are still pretty big. You get rid of the metal block of the engine but have to package batteries. Replace one with another. In the end, there will be more freedom for designers as the huge metal block disappears and batteries get smaller.”

    Porsche’s next electric car after the Mission E is set to be an SUV – a car Steiner said will have “benefits for Porsche as there’s still a trend for SUVs”.

    Steiner added: “We made a clear strategy on electric cars to start with cars very close to the core of the brand. We will have a really sporty car between 911 and Panamera. It’s very well known that the SUV segment is growing faster but we didn’t want a ‘me too’ concept but a true Porsche concept.”

    Heavy investment into sustainability

    The Mission E is a catalyst for all future eletrified Porsches, commanding €1 billion (£882 million) worth of investment into the company's research and facilities. The impact of this will help Porsche achieve its wider sustainability plans, which Reimold said includes achieving "CO2-neutral production". The expansion plans Mission E has encouraged will create 1200 news jobs at Porsche.

    “We are also planning additional purely electric vehicles and investigating relevant segments," Reimold added.

    Link: https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/porsche-mission-e-several-variants-due-satisfy-surging-electrified-car-sales

    Smiley Smiley Smiley


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    911's will loose a good bunch of their GT ( as in grand tourisme ) buyers , and the Panamera a good bunch of their sportier clients .  Good for the 911 . Maybe that will save it from becoming too confort orientated , and give it room to become more simple again . That might then only be by the time the 994 ( ? ) comes out ....


    --

     964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm --  991 GT3 RS 


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Mission E is a product that will arrive late to the market and already outdated.

    I don't get why you give so much credit to the traditional companies when the electric field is relatively unexplored for them while laughing at Tesla. For me it's like mocking of Amazon in the early days because brick&mortar businesses did know better how to sell things.

    Tesla has several flaws but three strengths overall: positioning; own resources (data, batteries, etc.); innovation.


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    alexalex88:

    Mission E is a product that will arrive late to the market and already outdated.

    I don't get why you give so much credit to the traditional companies when the electric field is relatively unexplored for them while laughing at Tesla. For me it's like mocking of Amazon in the early days because brick&mortar businesses did know better how to sell things.

    Tesla has several flaws but three strengths overall: positioning; own resources (data, batteries, etc.); innovation.

    Porsche won't put an outdated product on the market, especially the Mission E, which is their main product for the future. All the specs they released about this car have "at least" or "more" in front. Just like the 918 was... 


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Competing against Tesla needs more than building a good looking and well performing electrical Porsche. 

    The Tesla is different in so many aspects. Basically everything around the car was questioned. Just the fact that you don't even have to press anywhere a "start-button" shows that they re-thought every process and attribute. On top of it, that super user friendly Infotainment System. It operates super smooth. Updates are coming over night, every function is found without even thinking where it should be hidden down the menu structure. The entire car is just fun to run. Could it look better - for sure. But we did see that people are ready to buy the Philosophie instead the beauty. 

    I doubt that Porsche can deliver this kind of Philosophies how a car operates in the future. If they bring the same over clustered user interface as in the Panamera with so many different screens and plenty of buttons then they lost the game before they even started it. 

    Last not least the image. Driving the Tesla gives you the credit of carrying the image of eco-friendly, Gen-Y, future oriented, positive brand awareness. While the Porsche still stands for the show-off, way to fast on the streets, noisy, energy bursting - rather negative brand awareness (for sure cultural and regional depending). 

    For sure Porsche will sell this car like hot cake - no doubt about. It will sell because of it looks and because it is a Porsche (and too many people still fancy the show-off- capability of that name). But I don't think that they will build a car which comes even close to the positive perception and enhanced Philosophy of the Tesla. 


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Spot on, Lars997 


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Not sure a EV or ICE car is gauged by its infotainment system? Personally, I'm not a fan of Musk or the cars (or their sales methods) but I don't believe you can apply the Amazon analogy - this is product, not wholesaling. 


    --

    991 Carrera Black Edition, XC90 Black\Black - 2 kids, 1 dog


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    The Mission E range and performance is aready outdated today, except for the 800V charging which is vaporware.

    People keep comparing the best of what traditional manufacturers could do in 2-3 years vs what Tesla already have on the market... This is going to be interesting.


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Lars997:

    ........Last not least the image. Driving the Tesla gives you the credit of carrying the image of eco-friendly, Gen-Y, future oriented, positive brand awareness. While the Porsche still stands for the show-off, way to fast on the streets, noisy, energy bursting - rather negative brand awareness (for sure cultural and regional depending).....

    Interesting observation.....I would say here and in many other parts of the U.S. the Tesla S is very much a "show-off" car!


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    964C2:
    Lars997:

    ........Last not least the image. Driving the Tesla gives you the credit of carrying the image of eco-friendly, Gen-Y, future oriented, positive brand awareness. While the Porsche still stands for the show-off, way to fast on the streets, noisy, energy bursting - rather negative brand awareness (for sure cultural and regional depending).....

    Interesting observation.....I would say here and in many other parts of the U.S. the Tesla S is very much a "show-off" car!

    There we go - cultural and regional depending. Smiley


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    I've never heard of Tesla's being a show-off in the US. They look like every other car on the road. Very normal looking.


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Lars997:
    964C2:
    Lars997:

    ........Last not least the image. Driving the Tesla gives you the credit of carrying the image of eco-friendly, Gen-Y, future oriented, positive brand awareness. While the Porsche still stands for the show-off, way to fast on the streets, noisy, energy bursting - rather negative brand awareness (for sure cultural and regional depending).....

    Interesting observation.....I would say here and in many other parts of the U.S. the Tesla S is very much a "show-off" car!

    There we go - cultural and regional depending. Smiley

     

    It is. Tesla has replaced Prius as the car to show off to the word that they are 'green'.

    The Haves move up to Tesla, the Have-nots stayed driving a Prius.


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    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    at the price tag, in Europe, Tesla is a luxury car...

    In UAE, it is a hype car so when you are cool you have to have one angry


    --

    GT Lover

    Porsche fan

    991.2 GT3 on order

    991 GT3 2014(sold)

    CAYENNE GTS 2014


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    the-missile:

    at the price tag, in Europe, Tesla is a luxury car...

    Indeed. Smiley Also, the Tesla 3 won't change anything in Europe, Elon Musk doesn't know Europeans, especially since the vibe and sympathy for US products has certainly declined since the NSA affair and Trump's election (actually, there isn't one day going by without some German news reporter mocking or making fun (of) Trump. Even worse than in the US, believe it or not. 

    Tesla should not expect to sell many model 3 in Germany or the rest of Europe, especially if VW and Co. come up with halfway competitive products.

    In UAE, it is a hype car so when you are cool you have to have one angry

    Same in Germany, I know a couple of people who have a Tesla S or X because it is cool to have one, especially from an environmental point of view.


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    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991.2 Carrera GTS Cabriolet (2018), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

     


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    same for France, daily bashing of Trump indecision and french have 0 interest in green hype coolaid cars when they cost more than traditional diesel engine angry... Tesla will have 0 success.


    --

    GT Lover

    Porsche fan

    991.2 GT3 on order

    991 GT3 2014(sold)

    CAYENNE GTS 2014


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Tesla has already its success. And France will buy them, too - sooner or later!

     


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    RC:
    Also, the Tesla 3 won't change anything in Europe, Elon Musk doesn't know Europeans, especially since the vibe and sympathy for US products has certainly declined since the NSA affair and Trump's election (actually, there isn't one day going by without some German news reporter mocking or making fun (of) Trump. Even worse than in the US, believe it or not. 


    You should stop immediately buying Apple products RC! You can't buy something that is developed in Trump land next door to Tesla Smiley

    Every Model 3 Tesla can ship to Europe will be sold. There is simply no competition in 5 years in that price bracket with similar specs, range charging infrastructure and convenience. Tesla is associated with a complete different set of values  compared with traditional American Detroit car manufacturers. Lot of Europeans will put Tesla way above VW or any of the other german alternatives.


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    I am French so no punt intended but France does not have the economical power to buy enough Teslas S and X to make the needle move. UK, Switzerland  and Germany do and some Nordic countries. But the others not so much. Even Tesla 3 will be too upmarket for France.


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    I just cancelled my Tesla 3 reservation. 

    Why - simply since March 2016 there was single communication. No status update, nothing. My delivery time was going upwards months by months. Now it was saying end of 2018. Last not least - while I like the exterior of the Model 3 I don't like the interior at all, looks super cheap. 

     


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    This is exactly what I meant about their sales operation. It works for iPhones but not cars.


    --

    991 Carrera Black Edition, XC90 Black\Black - 2 kids, 1 dog


     
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