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    Re: Porsche supercar switching Ferrari target from 458 to F12

    The F12 is indeed a very interesting and relatively inexpensive product from Ferrari. I think that Porsche could target the F12 with the Panamera Coupe (or whatever the name will be) because I don't really see the F12 as a competitor for the rumored "above" 911 Turbo mid engined Porsche model in the 250k EUR price range.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2012), Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: Porsche supercar switching Ferrari target from 458 to F12

    Agreed.


    Re: Porsche supercar switching Ferrari target from 458 to F12

    RC:

    The F12 is indeed a very interesting and relatively inexpensive product from Ferrari. I think that Porsche could target the F12 with the Panamera Coupe (or whatever the name will be) because I don't really see the F12 as a competitor for the rumored "above" 911 Turbo mid engined Porsche model in the 250k EUR price range.

    The F12 is a unique product whereas the projected Panamera Coupe, to make financial sense,  will be a range from (I expect) 350PS  to  600PS. The top Coupe model might just approach the F12 performance but not its prestige.

    To challenge Ferrari in terms of cachet,  Porsche need to build a singular model with unique components and a very high price tag.


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: Porsche supercar switching Ferrari target from 458 to F12

    This will be a challenge for Porsche,

    as F12 already matches 918 super car performance 0-200km/h in 8.5 seconds!


    Re: Porsche supercar switching Ferrari target from 458 to F12

    RC:

    The F12 is indeed a very interesting and relatively inexpensive product from Ferrari. I think that Porsche could target the F12 with the Panamera Coupe (or whatever the name will be) because I don't really see the F12 as a competitor for the rumored "above" 911 Turbo mid engined Porsche model in the 250k EUR price range.

    Relatively inexpensive? Aren't they like $400K+? That seems like one of the most expensive new models ever...


    Re: Porsche supercar switching Ferrari target from 458 to F12

    The F12 is "only" 55k EUR more than my Panamera Turbo S. I don't know how much Ferrari charges in the US but 400k USD sounds a bit much.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2012), Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: Porsche supercar switching Ferrari target from 458 to F12

    MSRP of the Panamera Turbo S in the US is $175K. MSRP of the F12 in the US is about $320K. With a few options you're probably around $350K easily. So $400K if you are playing the bullshit US dealership games, but yeah, it's definitely in the mid to high $300s.


    Re: Porsche supercar switching Ferrari target from 458 to F12

    wedouglas:

    MSRP of the Panamera Turbo S in the US is $175K. MSRP of the F12 in the US is about $320K. With a few options you're probably around $350K easily. So $400K if you are playing the bullshit US dealership games, but yeah, it's definitely in the mid to high $300s.

    F12 base price in Germany is 268k EUR as far as I remember, Panamera Turbo S base price is 169k EUR. So judging by the base price, the difference is almost 100k EUR. The F12 is actually well optioned, so I wouldn't need to add much and Ferrari dealers over here wouldn't BS around since sales dropped and they actually started to look actively for customers. Right now, the F12 sells better than the California and the FF, which is no surprise though.

    Owning a Ferrari over here in Germany poses actually a different kind of challenge than a financial challenge. Unfortunately. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2012), Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: Porsche supercar switching Ferrari target from 458 to F12

    RC:
    wedouglas:

    MSRP of the Panamera Turbo S in the US is $175K. MSRP of the F12 in the US is about $320K. With a few options you're probably around $350K easily. So $400K if you are playing the bullshit US dealership games, but yeah, it's definitely in the mid to high $300s.

    F12 base price in Germany is 268k EUR as far as I remember, Panamera Turbo S base price is 169k EUR. So judging by the base price, the difference is almost 100k EUR. The F12 is actually well optioned, so I wouldn't need to add much and Ferrari dealers over here wouldn't BS around since sales dropped and they actually started to look actively for customers. Right now, the F12 sells better than the California and the FF, which is no surprise though.

    Owning a Ferrari over here in Germany poses actually a different kind of challenge than a financial challenge. Unfortunately. Smiley


    Base price is 268k, that's right, but don't be fooled. You won't leave the dealership with a F12 costing much less than 300k, so the original price difference between a F12 and a Panamera Turbo S will stay the same. Smiley


    --

    The secret of life is to admire without desiring.


    Re: Porsche supercar switching Ferrari target from 458 to F12

    I already found a F12 for 275k (dealer price) which would fit just perfect for me but I'm afraid a Ferrari is going to stay a dream forever but sometimes it is nice to check your options and dreams. 


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2012), Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: Porsche supercar switching Ferrari target from 458 to F12

    Porsche keeps the same price ratio in US vs Germany as BMW and Mercedes do. So 75k euro BMW (excl. VAT) costs 75k usd in the States.

    Ferrari was like this also before 458 came in 2010. Since then Ferrari convert the prices in the States as if the exchange rate was 1.5 between Euro vs USD. Since then Ferraris become more expensive in the US.


    --

    ONUR

    THE BEST CAR EVER smiley

    11 E92 M3 CP - 09 Audi TTS Coupe - 07 997 Carrera S - 05 M3 Coupe - 03 M3 Coupe - 96 M3 Coupe EVO (PASS TIME HISTORY)

     


    Re: Porsche supercar switching Ferrari target from 458 to F12

    RC:

    I already found a F12 for 275k (dealer price) which would fit just perfect for me but I'm afraid a Ferrari is going to stay a dream forever but sometimes it is nice to check your options and dreams.


    So these 275k are either after rebate or the car is missing all those must have options.  Smiley


    --

    The secret of life is to admire without desiring.


    Re: Porsche supercar switching Ferrari target from 458 to F12

    RC:

    Owning a Ferrari over here in Germany poses actually a different kind of challenge than a financial challenge. Unfortunately. Smiley

    Would it make a difference to public perception, if the Ferrari had foreign number plates? You could always say that you are keeping it for a friend/relative from abroad and move it in and out of the country


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: Porsche supercar switching Ferrari target from 458 to F12

    Rossi:
    RC:

    I already found a F12 for 275k (dealer price) which would fit just perfect for me but I'm afraid a Ferrari is going to stay a dream forever but sometimes it is nice to check your options and dreams.


    So these 275k are either after rebate or the car is missing all those must have options.  Smiley

    Car was pretty well equipped for my needs and yes, there was a (small) rebate involved but I never gave it too much thought because I'm not interested in a Ferrari.

    Btw: Have you seen the latest Lamborghini Gallardo lease offers? Insane.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2012), Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: Porsche supercar switching Ferrari target from 458 to F12

    Had the privilege of spending a lot of time around (but not driving) the F12 a few months back. An unbelievable, stunning, luxurious, fabulous piece of machinery.  Porsche would have a very, very difficult time producing a car to compete with it.


    Re: Porsche supercar switching Ferrari target from 458 to F12

    Wonderbar:

    Had the privilege of spending a lot of time around (but not driving) the F12 a few months back. An unbelievable, stunning, luxurious, fabulous piece of machinery.  Porsche would have a very, very difficult time producing a car to compete with it.

    I don't think Porsche lack the technical ability to produce something like the F12. However, it has to be a unique model in order to compete with the F12 on image, and not a part of a range with various engines i.e. like a Panamera Coupe. I doubt the accountants will ever approve the investment for such a car.

    The F12 is definitely a magnificent car.


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: Porsche supercar switching Ferrari target from 458 to F12

    The only way to go for Porsche would be a Panamera Coupe (based on the next gen Panamera) and they wouldn't even have to call it Panamera Coupe, it could also look slightly different.

    The F12 is an exceptional car and if I could afford it, financially and socially, I would buy it in a heartbeat. In my opinion, it offers right now the best performance/price tag ratio of all sports cars out there.

    Mr. Piech's wife loves Ferrari (as far as I know, she owns a couple of them), so I guess VW and Porsche are very aware of the qualities of the F12 and the chances for a potential competitor.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2012), Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: Porsche supercar switching Ferrari target from 458 to F12

    RC:

    The only way to go for Porsche would be a Panamera Coupe (based on the next gen Panamera) and they wouldn't even have to call it Panamera Coupe, it could also look slightly different.

    The F12 is an exceptional car and if I could afford it, financially and socially, I would buy it in a heartbeat. In my opinion, it offers right now the best performance/price tag ratio of all sports cars out there.

    Mr. Piech's wife loves Ferrari (as far as I know, she owns a couple of them), so I guess VW and Porsche are very aware of the qualities of the F12 and the chances for a potential competitor.

    According to this link, Mr. Piech has already bought an F12 as a present for his wife Ursula :

    http://www.alvolante.it/news/piech_ferrari_f12_berlinetta-622921044

    It is a great great car. I was very disappointed with 599 GTB when I drove it on a race track, the gearbox and the suspension were the biggest downsides but would love to own an F12 Smiley

    --

    ONUR

    THE BEST CAR EVER smiley

    11 E92 M3 CP - 09 Audi TTS Coupe - 07 997 Carrera S - 05 M3 Coupe - 03 M3 Coupe - 96 M3 Coupe EVO (PASS TIME HISTORY)

     


    Re: Porsche supercar switching Ferrari target from 458 to F12

    pride355:
     I was very disappointed with 599 GTB when I drove it on a race track, the gearbox and the suspension were the biggest downsides but would love to own an F12 Smiley

    --

     

    Why do you expect the F12 to be substantially better? It is the same concept as the 599...


    Re: Porsche supercar switching Ferrari target from 458 to F12

    MKSGR:
    pride355:
     I was very disappointed with 599 GTB when I drove it on a race track, the gearbox and the suspension were the biggest downsides but would love to own an F12 Smiley

    --

     

    Why do you expect the F12 to be substantially better? It is the same concept as the 599...

    Marcus,

    F12 is lighter, it has DCT instead of old age F1 and has improved suspension thanks to new generation magnatic shocks as I have in 458. Also F12 is shorter than 599 which is a good thing on right-left-right chicanes.

    The worst thing about 599 is the old age F1 transmission. It is not so bad on full throttle upshifts BUT if you are changing gear before red line at less than full throttle, it causes too much weight transfer and cuts the power from the rear wheels too abrubtly.

    You may ask where the hell I short shifted the 599 on a race track. Well, it was a semi-wet track and on a 120 degree long right hand turn, due to loss of traction at the rear wheels, I wanted to upshift on the middle of the turn. With 458, everything was fluent. With 599, the whole turn fell apart.

    Also, there was too much dive on the 599. The wheelbase is too long and the suspension is to soft. Therefore too much left-to-right weight transfer as well as heavy weight. The car I drove had ceramic brakes but They were no good compared to my 458's ceramics. When I tracked my ex-E92 M3 on the same track last year, I had more fun with M3 than 599. M3 drove much better than 599 thanks to M-DKG and better body control. It was more fun, and I guess faster. On the other hand, 458 is in another league when compared with M3. I was 2 sec faster with 458 than my best time in M3 (51.430 vs 53.400). It was my first track session with my 458 and the track was semi-wet (I tracked the M3 on the same circuit 3 times). I expect to lap it 2-2,5 sec faster on a dry-track and beat the Production Car Lap Record of the Track which belongs to my friend who did 49.1 sec with a modified (less weight and more power than stock) Mk 3 Nissan GT-R.


    --

    ONUR

    THE BEST CAR EVER smiley

    11 E92 M3 CP - 09 Audi TTS Coupe - 07 997 Carrera S - 05 M3 Coupe - 03 M3 Coupe - 96 M3 Coupe EVO (PASS TIME HISTORY)

     


    Re: Porsche supercar switching Ferrari target from 458 to F12

    pride355:
    Also, there was too much dive on the 599. The wheelbase is too long and the suspension is to soft.

     

     

    I agree with you on this one.  Maybe the new suspension brings some improvement. But the whole concept will prevent the F12 from being really convincing in terms of handling, if you ask me...

    The major problem with the 599 (and most likely the F12 as well) is the heavy front end (simply too much weight) and the too high weight in general. The car is just not well suited for a track day. The brakes are killed too quickly, the tires are burned within some laps (no kidding, my tires looked horrible after just one day at Mugello). I just don't see why the F12 should be a major improvement - IF you are looking for a car close to a GT3/GT2. The F12 is probably still more the car to enjoy in a warm summer night (or on a warm summer day). Windows open, not driving too fast. Enjoying the sound, the design, the interior. The faster you drive these cars the less convincing they are Smiley Also, the quality is not good enough if compared with Porsche.


    Re: Porsche supercar switching Ferrari target from 458 to F12

    MKSGR:
    Also, the quality is not good enough if compared with Porsche.
     


    Major, major problem. Still. Smiley


    --

    The secret of life is to admire without desiring.


     
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