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    Re: McLaren vs 458 vs 997 Turbo...real life test

    GT:
    - weight with fluids around 1350-1400 which is almost 200kgs lighter than 997.2tt if am not mistaken and around 100kg from 458.


    The weight of a 458 is not that far away from the Turbo, I'd say the average 458 weighs between 1.550 and 1.600 kg.

    So the weight advantage of the 12C compared to the 458 should be be even bigger than 100 kg. Smiley


    --

    The secret of life is to admire without desiring.


    Re: McLaren vs 458 vs 997 Turbo...real life test


    RC:
    For slightly over 200k EUR, this would be an exceptional value...if true.

    Can't wait to see a Sport Auto review of this car.


    I'm afraid the 12C won't be "slightly over 200k". Smiley

    Even if you don't go the "all-CF-way" (which should be hard to resist...), the price of the 12C will be easily between 230 and 240k. Smiley


    --

    The secret of life is to admire without desiring.


    Re: McLaren vs 458 vs 997 Turbo...real life test

    I guess I'm lucky!  The Philadelphia dealer is scheduled to be closer than my Porsche dealership... now I just have to come up with the money!


    --
    2007 997TT Blk/Blk 2007 X3 Sil Gry/Taupe 2002 E46 M3 Slvr/Blk (gone)


    Re: McLaren vs 458 vs 997 Turbo...real life test

    RC:
    GT:

     Well i heard that the 0-200 was actually 9.1 sec with stock tires or 8.9 sec with corsa tires.  Now if that is true then this is pretty incredible and from another planet compared to pretty much everything we've discussed here. 

    For slightly over 200k EUR, this would be an exceptional value...if true.

    Can't wait to see a Sport Auto review of this car.

    As to dealerships: If I wouldn't work and if I had the money, I would probably go for one. However, it is not practical for me, as a working person with family, to get a car with which I would need to drive a couple of hundred of km's to the next dealership.

    Especially in this price segment, service needs to have top priority and if they want to sell this car in large numbers (considering the "attractive" price tag, they need to), they also need to sell it from many different dealerships. 

    Maybe McLaren should look for existing Aston Martin dealerships, it would be a good addition to them. Don't know though if Aston Martin dealerships for example in Germany are allowed to include a second brand.

     

     I would have thought that they could pick up and transport the car for you. A number of the Ferrari dealers in the UK do this for their better customers and that is McLaren's target market. If the car is as good as McLaren claim it is, its not perfect I know, but probably better than not having one. When McLaren launched their (admittedly masterful) marketing campaign they made a huge point on customer service - let's see if they deliver. For me the car has to deliver exceptionally on performance as the looks are not emotionally moving at all. I had a long chat with my dealer last week and they remain concerned,  but quietly confident that they can at least, on the driving side,  deliver the emotional experience of a Ferrari despite having a turbo charged engine -  I'm intrigued by the gear change sensation comments earlier in this thread - McLaren have thought this through very well. I had hoped to drive one in March, but looks like things are slipping at McLaren and it is more likely April now.


    Re: McLaren vs 458 vs 997 Turbo...real life test

    Rossi:

    I'm afraid the 12C won't be "slightly over 200k". Smiley

    Even if you don't go the "all-CF-way" (which should be hard to resist...), the price of the 12C will be easily between 230 and 240k. Smiley

     

    What about the rebate ? I never buy a car without it (the most interesting option). Smiley Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW


    Re: McLaren vs 458 vs 997 Turbo...real life test

    RC:
    Rossi:

    I'm afraid the 12C won't be "slightly over 200k". Smiley

    Even if you don't go the "all-CF-way" (which should be hard to resist...), the price of the 12C will be easily between 230 and 240k. Smiley

     

    What about the rebate ? I never buy a car without it (the most interesting option). Smiley Smiley

     You might get 2-3% - but I guess that would not be satisfactory for you Smiley


    Re: McLaren vs 458 vs 997 Turbo...real life test

    MKSGR:
    RC:
    Rossi:

    I'm afraid the 12C won't be "slightly over 200k". Smiley

    Even if you don't go the "all-CF-way" (which should be hard to resist...), the price of the 12C will be easily between 230 and 240k. Smiley

     

    What about the rebate ? I never buy a car without it (the most interesting option). Smiley Smiley

     You might get 2-3% - but I guess that would not be satisfactory for you Smiley


    Rebate: don't overdo this matter. Just imagine someone comes into your business and wants a 10% discount... Smiley

    Price of the 12C: IMHO the car is about 20k too expensive. Either it should have a base price of 180k with the current standard equipment or McLaren should charge you 200k, but for this money I expect CCM, full leather, HiFi and Navi included. Smiley
     


    --

    The secret of life is to admire without desiring.


    Re: McLaren vs 458 vs 997 Turbo...real life test

    Rossi:

    Price of the 12C: IMHO the car is about 20k too expensive. Either it should have a base price of 180k with the current standard equipment or McLaren should charge you 200k, but for this money I expect CCM, full leather, HiFi and Navi included. 


    I have to say that I am not in the market for that car but rather objectively this car combines performance and engineering that is hardly represented by any other marque. Considering the pricetag of McLaren´s previous models and the price of comparable cars of this performance, technology or craftsmanship it seems more than reasonable if one may say so in this pricerange. Smiley

    The weakpoints indeed seem to be that McLaren is still a rather young, inexperienced marque and the rather limited dealernetwork, although I also expect them to pick up cars from the respective customers for maintenance and repair.


    Re: McLaren vs 458 vs 997 Turbo...real life test

    MKSGR:

     You might get 2-3% - but I guess that would not be satisfactory for you Smiley

     

    Below 10%, I don't get even started. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW


    Re: McLaren vs 458 vs 997 Turbo...real life test

    RC:
    MKSGR:

     You might get 2-3% - but I guess that would not be satisfactory for you Smiley

     

    Below 10%, I don't get even started. Smiley

     SmileySmileySmiley Smiley


    Re: McLaren vs 458 vs 997 Turbo...real life test

    RC:
    MKSGR:

     You might get 2-3% - but I guess that would not be satisfactory for you Smiley

     

    Below 10%, I don't get even started. Smiley

    How German of you Smiley


    --

    indeed shifting is ancient technology - so is a fuel burning engine..  I happen to like both :) 


    Re: McLaren vs 458 vs 997 Turbo...real life test

    Some more details.

    The 997 was the Turbo S.

    All three were equipped with street tires.

    The Mclaren gearbox was the fastest and precise of the trio.

    The engine sound of the 458 was the best, but from inside the Mclaren sound is AMAZING.

    General build construction is really really in another level, even compared with the TurboS.

    Mclaren will be 5.000sterling in UKcheaper than 458 !!! Can´t confirm.

    Next Monday will post the video of the three together with pics.

    J.Seven

     


    Re: McLaren vs 458 vs 997 Turbo...real life test

    J.Seven:
    Mclaren will be 5.000sterling in UKcheaper than 458 !!! Can´t confirm.


    Obviously that's only valid for the UK and not for ROW. Smiley
     


    --

    The secret of life is to admire without desiring.


    Re: McLaren vs 458 vs 997 Turbo...real life test

    Ferrari would pick my car up in San Diego to have it serviced in Orange, California about a 100 miles away. It was a real inconvenience. Fortunately, they later opened a San Diego dealership.

    The service issue especially with temperamental high performance sport cars is a major consideration in buying one.  


    --

     


    Re: McLaren vs 458 vs 997 Turbo...real life test

    The Mclaren base price in the UK is less than the 458 but a lot of the standard fit kit on the 458 is not standard on the MP4 .... CCB's for starters. When you add back the items missing from the Mclaren that are standard on the 458 it becomes a more expensive car.


    Re: McLaren vs 458 vs 997 Turbo...real life test

    ISUK:

    The Mclaren base price in the UK is less than the 458 but a lot of the standard fit kit on the 458 is not standard on the MP4 .... CCB's for starters. When you add back the items missing from the Mclaren that are standard on the 458 it becomes a more expensive car.

     Is a standard MP4 (without the things that are standard in the Ferrari) just as good or better than a standard 458? I think that is the real comparison on a performance level. The dealer and maintenance situation is something that the first batch of owners will have to deal with just for having the privilege of being amongst the first while McL establish themselves  in the market and build a more effective network.


    Re: McLaren vs 458 vs 997 Turbo...real life test

     Guys the rumour is that it did 4 seconds (yes 4 SECONDS) better lap time around the top gear track than the 458. IF this is true and we are compared dry vs dry times with similar tires then this car is a game changer..


    Re: McLaren vs 458 vs 997 Turbo...real life test

    GT:

     this car is a game changer..


    It really is. In AIA it was 3 seconds faster than the 458. Sad the looks are so plain, nobody was really impresed on that regard.

    J.Seven


    Re: McLaren vs 458 vs 997 Turbo...real life test

    Have been to the factory twice to see this car. Really did not think that the looks were boring in the flesh.. It is not as exciting as maybe a 458 (even that car is not to everyone's liking) but it has a presence and attention to detail that makes it an attractive car in the flesh. However I agree there is sth missing for sure

    Re: McLaren vs 458 vs 997 Turbo...real life test

    GT:

     Guys the rumour is that it did 4 seconds (yes 4 SECONDS) better lap time around the top gear track than the 458. IF this is true and we are compared dry vs dry times with similar tires then this car is a game changer..

    The similarly looking Ascari KZ1 clocked a laptime almost 2 seconds faster than the Ferrari's in 2007, after four years of evolution that the least you would expect.

    That said, you have to reckon they are quite good at building hype. In F1 despite having just won one title in the XXI century (and that was the year after having been involved in a spy scandal) they have somehow managed to convince some people they are kind of the most technical and professional team in the sport.

    Now, having been releasing (without actyually releasing it) a car for like two, threee years, having the chance to benchmark the new Ferrari for probably more than a year....if it wasn't able of trouncing its rivals someone should be fired at McLaren.

    And regarding built quality you don't see if a car it's actually well built testing press cars (which are 'special units') at the official launch of a model. That should be judged after the car has been on the road for a few years. Was the McLaren-built SLR especially well thrown together?


    Re: McLaren vs 458 vs 997 Turbo...real life test

    As we suspected it produces blistering performance figures - 0-60 3 secs. 0-124 8.9 secs. Top speed a conservative 205 mph. But as we also suspected it's almost too perfect and lacking in character or soul according to this reviewer.

    www.dailymail.co.uk/home/moslive/article-1355999/Jenson-Button-drives-new-British-supercar-McLaren-MP4-12C.html


    Re: McLaren vs 458 vs 997 Turbo...real life test

    Let's see if there will be any recalls in the next couple of months


    --

     

    http://i54.tinypic.com/34fcl7a.jpg


    Re: McLaren vs 458 vs 997 Turbo...real life test

    BiTurbo:

    Let's see if there will be any recalls in the next couple of months

     

    It's not unknown for Mclaren's to self combust  Smiley

    F1 fire.JPG


    Re: McLaren vs 458 vs 997 Turbo...real life test

    Better add the fire extinguisher to my options list, when ordering the mp4 Smiley

    Car is wicked fast, but I still can't get over its plain looks

     


    --

     

    http://i54.tinypic.com/34fcl7a.jpg


    Re: McLaren vs 458 vs 997 Turbo...real life test

    BiTurbo:

    Better add the fire extinguisher to my options list, when ordering the mp4 Smiley

    Car is wicked fast, but I still can't get over its plain looks

     

     you guys crack me up.. Smiley

    in the meantime;

    http://paultan.org/2011/02/13/mclaren-mp4-12c-full-specs-confirmed-600-ps/

    ..and for the rest of the haters here it is rumoured that nbg time is sub 7 mins.. Smiley

    Can wait for the independent AMS supertest to see if that rumour is also true...


    Re: McLaren vs 458 vs 997 Turbo...real life test

    200-0kph in 123m Smiley

    The NBR lap time could be very low indeed - assuming the info about the aerodynamic brake reducing the NBR the lap time by 10s is correct SmileySmileySmiley


    Re: McLaren vs 458 vs 997 Turbo...real life test

    GT:
    you guys crack me up.. Smiley

    in the meantime;

    http://paultan.org/2011/02/13/mclaren-mp4-12c-full-specs-confirmed-600-ps/


    No direct injection, I wonder how they want to fulfil their extremely optimistic consumption promises. Smiley


    --

    The secret of life is to admire without desiring.


    Re: McLaren vs 458 vs 997 Turbo...real life test

    ISUK:

    As we suspected it produces blistering performance figures - 0-60 3 secs. 0-124 8.9 secs. Top speed a conservative 205 mph. But as we also suspected it's almost too perfect and lacking in character or soul according to this reviewer.

    www.dailymail.co.uk/home/moslive/article-1355999/Jenson-Button-drives-new-British-supercar-McLaren-MP4-12C.html

    If I remember correctly that was precisely Clarkson's complaint about the 458 Italia !  Smiley
     


    Re: McLaren vs 458 vs 997 Turbo...real life test

    Rossi:
    GT:
    you guys crack me up.. Smiley

    in the meantime;

    http://paultan.org/2011/02/13/mclaren-mp4-12c-full-specs-confirmed-600-ps/


    No direct injection, I wonder how they want to fulfil their extremely optimistic consumption promises. Smiley

    Engine is extreme kurzhuber... Did you saw compression ratio? 8.7:1
     

    I would like to know turbo pressure specs as well...


    Re: McLaren vs 458 vs 997 Turbo...real life test

    kurzhuber? What does that mean? Boost is around 1.5 bar (21.8 Psi) according to insideline..

     
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