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    Panamera Turbo tested in german "AutoMotorSport" Mag

    Group tested with RS6 and E63 AMG:

    Panamera clocked the 0-200 km/h in 14,9 sec..

    AMG E63 exactly the same time.

    0-100 km/h was 4.2 sec for the Panamera ... E63 was 4.5 sec.

    Fuel consumption was 17,8l/100km for Porsche ... 16.4l for AMG.

     

    Cheers

    Tom


    Re: Panamera Turbo tested in german "AutoMotorSport" Mag

    I've seen this test today, The AMG is assessed as equal to the Panamera at 70% of the price.

    The only drawback of the AMG is that it (generally) looks like any E-class including Taxis. Of course this anonymity might be an advantage for some countries like Germany where some people have a problem with expensive cars


    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

    Re: Panamera Turbo tested in german "AutoMotorSport" Mag

    To add in drive dynamics E63 numbers are better then Panamera Turbo.

    ...and with the same equipment E63 is about €40K cheaper in Germany then Panamera Turbo.


    Re: Panamera Turbo tested in german "AutoMotorSport" Mag

    Isn't an M5 0-200 much better than the Panamera TT?


    Re: Panamera Turbo tested in german "AutoMotorSport" Mag

    SciFrog:

    Isn't an M5 0-200 much better than the Panamera TT?


    Hmm.... It depends on current state of different examples of M5. It is the car with highest variation amount different press examples. One is 13.8s fast, other is 15.5s etc. Performance of M5 is very good but, since sequential manuals are official dead IMHO best thing is to avoid that car.


    Re: Panamera Turbo tested in german "AutoMotorSport" Mag

    KresoF1:

    To add in drive dynamics E63 numbers are better then Panamera Turbo.

    ...and with the same equipment E63 is about €40K cheaper in Germany then Panamera Turbo.

    This is the AMS points scoring. The cars are more or less equal in the various areas but AMG's price is 70% of Porsche's (similar difference between other M-B and Porsche models)

     

    AMS.jpg


    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts


    Re: Panamera Turbo tested in german "AutoMotorSport" Mag

     

    Based on this test the Panamera turbo would be quite a disappointing car Smiley

    I am now waiting for the Supertest and the first opportunity to test drive the car. Based on RC's experience (in combination with the above test) one should probably not expect too much from this, though Smiley


    Re: Panamera Turbo tested in german "AutoMotorSport" Mag

    ouch


    --
    Speed has never killed anyone, suddenly becoming stationary... That's what gets you.

    Re: Panamera Turbo tested in german "AutoMotorSport" Mag

    MKSGR:

     

    Based on this test the Panamera turbo would be quite a disappointing car Smiley

    I am now waiting for the Supertest and the first opportunity to test drive the car. Based on RC's experience (in combination with the above test) one should probably not expect too much from this, though Smiley

    Based on my test drive of a Panamera S, I'd expect the Turbo version to be quite enticing.


    --

    Mike

    2005 Carrera GT - Signal Yellow

    2008 Tesla Roadster - Thunder Gray

    1972 BMW 3.0 CSi - Nachtblau

    2009 Bentley Arnage T - Black Saphire


    Re: Panamera Turbo tested in german "AutoMotorSport" Mag

    reginos, can you please post the scan of the datapanel? :) Thanks.


    Re: Panamera Turbo tested in german "AutoMotorSport" Mag

    ok the E class maybe can not be exclusiv..but is much moore goodlooking than the panamera...which is better..but so so so so so ugly.... 

    i would go for the E class all life long


    --
    993 c2

    Re: Panamera Turbo tested in german "AutoMotorSport" Mag

    acrobat:

    reginos, can you please post the scan of the datapanel? :) Thanks.

    here it is

    AMS 001.jpg


    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

    Re: Panamera Turbo tested in german "AutoMotorSport" Mag

     Thank you very much. :)

    Btw. what the **** happened to the RS6? 0-200 km/h in 15,6 seconds?! Come on! AutoBild did 13,9 s, AutoZeitung 13,4 s and the AutoBild Sportscars 13,2 s. That's nearly 2,5 seconds difference...


    Re: Panamera Turbo tested in german "AutoMotorSport" Mag

    W8MM:
    MKSGR:

     

    Based on this test the Panamera turbo would be quite a disappointing car Smiley

    I am now waiting for the Supertest and the first opportunity to test drive the car. Based on RC's experience (in combination with the above test) one should probably not expect too much from this, though Smiley

    Based on my test drive of a Panamera S, I'd expect the Turbo version to be quite enticing.

     The problem can be summarized as follows:

    - E63 has slightly better acceleration at higher speeds

    - E63 has shorter braking distance/better brakes

    - drive dynamics stats seem to indicate that the E63 is on Panamera turbo level (Supertest needed to verify this)

    - E63 has lower fuel consumption

    - E63 weights 200kg less

     

    RC writes about: slightly delayed throttle response, a drive feel closer to a conventional limousine rather than a 997, too soft suspension to be considered real sporty, disappointing sound...

    In summary, all this is very disappointing to me Smiley


    Re: Panamera Turbo tested in german "AutoMotorSport" Mag

    Of course Auto Bild below reverse the ranking in their points system with Porsche in front of the AMG and the Maserati a distant third (as expected), in spite of Porsches very low points for Preis (4 instead of 13 for AMG).

    Auto Bild  acceleration is only to 130km/h(!!) but Porsche's time is much below the AMS time, 16.0s instead of 16.4s.

    Much better consumption also than the one recorded by AMS too. Auto Bild: 16.2l, AMS 17.4l(??). AMG in both magazines 16.4l! Perhaps the AMS Panamera had a hole in the fuel tank Smiley

    My opinion: Don't rely on magazines too much. Buy what you like after you see and drive the cars. I don't think either a Panamera or a AMG driver will be unhappy with their choice.AMS 003.jpg

     


    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

    Re: Panamera Turbo tested in german "AutoMotorSport" Mag

    I just waited for you to put out that truly "funny" Auto Bild comparison.

    So, now really more serious magazines like AMS or Sport Auto are not trustwhorty enough since Panamera Turbo is very fast when measured by Auto Bild or AZ?

    Come on! Try to be little bit more objective this time and step out of Porsche brand badge. Panamera is good car. Look wise it is love it or hate it relationship IMO. Everything else-drive dynamics, tecnical development and specially the price is not what was expected. In all major departments Panamera is average at its best.

    PDK is great gearbox for sportscar a la 997.2 or Cayman/Boxster BUT, NOT for limo(even if we call it sportslimo) like Panamera. It is not nearly as smooth as good autbox(like the one in E63 or Jag XFR) at slow driving/city driving situations. Stop and go system is total PITA.

    Although I love Porsche I would always go for E63 instead of Pana Turbo.


    Re: Panamera Turbo tested in german "AutoMotorSport" Mag

    No, I am not in favour of the Panamera at all, because this type of car is not in my interests. I've always fancied the AMG program.

    I posted the table to show that magazines can present anything they like and readers should not view them as the Holy Book. Especially the german magazines' points system (how do you measure 7/10 instead of 8/10) I find little arbitrary.

    However, I was very puzzled by the difference in fuel consumption and the 0-130km/h between the 2 magazines, that normally are very measurable things.


    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts


    Re: Panamera Turbo tested in german "AutoMotorSport" Mag

     I think the Hyundai is quite pricey despite its performance...

    Sorry but the Benz ugs the ugly...you have to be blind or over 80 to like this car. Or you don't give a shit about looks. The Panamera is a real beauty in comparison.

    Safest bet is probably the RS6, though it's a bit unspectacular, which may be good or bad.


    Re: Panamera Turbo tested in german "AutoMotorSport" Mag

     Strange results. RS6 looks too slow, Panamera TT looks too slow...


    Re: Panamera Turbo tested in german "AutoMotorSport" Mag

    KresoF1:

    I just waited for you to put out that truly "funny" Auto Bild comparison.

    So, now really more serious magazines like AMS or Sport Auto are not trustwhorty enough since Panamera Turbo is very fast when measured by Auto Bild or AZ?

    The Auto Bild consumption rankings are more reminiscent of the official ECE results listed in the AMS data panel than the AMS consumption results.

    Are AMS tests more reliable than the ECE compliance tests? ECE profiles have Panamera as the best fuel economy of the three, including lowest CO2 g/km.


    --

    Mike

    2005 Carrera GT - Signal Yellow

    2008 Tesla Roadster - Thunder Gray

    1972 BMW 3.0 CSi - Nachtblau

    2009 Bentley Arnage T - Black Saphire


    Re: Panamera Turbo tested in german "AutoMotorSport" Mag

    W8MM:
    KresoF1:

    I just waited for you to put out that truly "funny" Auto Bild comparison.

    So, now really more serious magazines like AMS or Sport Auto are not trustwhorty enough since Panamera Turbo is very fast when measured by Auto Bild or AZ?

    The Auto Bild consumption rankings are more reminiscent of the official ECE results listed in the AMS data panel than the AMS consumption results.

    Are AMS tests more reliable than the ECE compliance tests? ECE profiles have Panamera as the best fuel economy of the three, including lowest CO2 g/km.


    --

    Mike

     

    The AutoBlid and AMS test consumption figures for the Mercedes are identical. But the Porsche figures deviate so much between the two magazine. This is the puzzle Smiley



    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

    Re: Panamera Turbo tested in german "AutoMotorSport" Mag

    Mike, there is an excellent article in one of the recent issues of EVO about ECE compliance tests. Read it since it will show you how some manufactures are basically cheating...

    From the article:

    "Another form of figure-massaging is that practised by Porsche, whose seven-speed ODK transmission is so long-legged in seventh that you'd seldom use it away from a motorway. But on light throttle in automatic mode, the PDK will reach seventh in the tests and retunr a manual-matching or bettering CO2 figure even though there are a great power losses in a double-clutch transmission."

    Article is really great and it explains how test procedure clearly favours automatic and double-clutch gearboxes.


    Re: Panamera Turbo tested in german "AutoMotorSport" Mag

    reginos:
    W8MM:
    KresoF1:

    I just waited for you to put out that truly "funny" Auto Bild comparison.

    So, now really more serious magazines like AMS or Sport Auto are not trustwhorty enough since Panamera Turbo is very fast when measured by Auto Bild or AZ?

    The Auto Bild consumption rankings are more reminiscent of the official ECE results listed in the AMS data panel than the AMS consumption results.

    Are AMS tests more reliable than the ECE compliance tests? ECE profiles have Panamera as the best fuel economy of the three, including lowest CO2 g/km.


    --

    Mike

     

    The AutoBlid and AMS test consumption figures for the Mercedes are identical. But the Porsche figures deviate so much between the two magazine. This is the puzzle Smiley



    AMS use track for drive dynamics tests. We can assume that AMS testers use more throttle in that tests(drive dynamics) then politically correct AB stuff...


    Re: Panamera Turbo tested in german "AutoMotorSport" Mag

    KresoF1:
    AMS use track for drive dynamics tests. We can assume that AMS testers use more throttle in that tests(drive dynamics) then politically correct AB stuff...

    That is probably the best explanation of the differences.

    I've participated in a lot of vehicle testing over the years and one of the biggest variables is the test driver.

    2)  While there may be a little more friction loss in a PDK transmission than a manual, it can't be nearly as much as that caused by a torque converter.  I'd expect PDK losses to be a fraction of that of a conventional fluid-driven auto box.  I tried doing the mental gymnastics to count the number of gear shafts turning simultaneously in a manual vs. PDK, but got too tired to continue.


    --

    Mike

    2005 Carrera GT - Signal Yellow

    2008 Tesla Roadster - Thunder Gray

    1972 BMW 3.0 CSi - Nachtblau

    2009 Bentley Arnage T - Black Saphire


    Re: Panamera Turbo tested in german "AutoMotorSport" Mag

    All of this is hard to follow.  I like AMG products as well, but I prefer the Panamera to the E class AMG.  There will always be comparisons of cars within the same "class" (Corvette versus Porsche, etc.), so just pick what you like and go for it.

    Also, I am not sure of this, but my guess is that, during testing and development, Porsche extensively compared the Panamera to the AMG products in its class, and would not have produced a car that was less than or even equal to those products. 


    Re: Panamera Turbo tested in german "AutoMotorSport" Mag

    KresoF1:
    reginos:
    W8MM:
    KresoF1:

    I just waited for you to put out that truly "funny" Auto Bild comparison.

    So, now really more serious magazines like AMS or Sport Auto are not trustwhorty enough since Panamera Turbo is very fast when measured by Auto Bild or AZ?

    The Auto Bild consumption rankings are more reminiscent of the official ECE results listed in the AMS data panel than the AMS consumption results.

    Are AMS tests more reliable than the ECE compliance tests? ECE profiles have Panamera as the best fuel economy of the three, including lowest CO2 g/km.


    --

    Mike

     

    The AutoBlid and AMS test consumption figures for the Mercedes are identical. But the Porsche figures deviate so much between the two magazine. This is the puzzle Smiley



    AMS use track for drive dynamics tests. We can assume that AMS testers use more throttle in that tests(drive dynamics) then politically correct AB stuff...

    Yes, Kreso this could be true about the tests, but Mercedes consumed 16.7l in AB and 16.4l in AMS (very similar in spite of possibly different testing procedures) whereas Panamera consumed 16.2l in AB and a very high 17.8l in AMS.

    My only explanation is that AMS spent the whole testing period in Sport Plus PDK mode that consumes a lot of fuel. Smiley


    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

    Re: Panamera Turbo tested in german "AutoMotorSport" Mag

    Did the Panamera in this test have sport chrono and PDK?  Sorry if I missed this...


    Re: Panamera Turbo tested in german "AutoMotorSport" Mag

    Wonderbar:

    Did the Panamera in this test have sport chrono and PDK?  Sorry if I missed this...

    All Turbos are PDK and in these tests they came with Sport and Sport Plus function.


    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

    Re: Panamera Turbo tested in german "AutoMotorSport" Mag

    16.4l for the E63 is pretty spot on, I averaged 17.5l in my ML63 which is a much heavier car.

    Panamera Turbo only has the upper hand in if all-weather traction is high on the wish list.

    if the performance of the E63 is any indication, the next gen CLS63 will be a very tough competitor for Panamera, similiar design, same performance with the top dog in the Panamera range, but with a much cheaper price tag, closer to the entry level Panamera.

    I have to say Porsche might be in trouble with the car, after the initial rush of chinese orders, how is Porsche going to sustain the sale figures? 


    Re: Panamera Turbo tested in german "AutoMotorSport" Mag

    Wonderbar:

    All of this is hard to follow.  I like AMG products as well, but I prefer the Panamera to the E class AMG.  There will always be comparisons of cars within the same "class" (Corvette versus Porsche, etc.), so just pick what you like and go for it.

    Also, I am not sure of this, but my guess is that, during testing and development, Porsche extensively compared the Panamera to the AMG products in its class, and would not have produced a car that was less than or even equal to those products. 

     That is what you would hope, but are you going to take it for granted? So far performance still needs to be proven. Also The Panamera is 15% more than equivalent Cayenne for no reason, and has a very controversial rear design, and four seats only for such a large/heavy car.

    IMHO after 12 months sales are going to collapse, and resale value are going to be even worse than the Cayenne which is already worse than any other Porsche (my Cayenne TT was 73% loss after 5 years FYI).


     
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