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    Re: trust me, do not buy a 997

    you see, the pic is as great as my happyness (until now 13.500 km)

    Re: trust me, do not buy a 997

    The 914's and old 911's hardly had anything on the interior, there were not that many parts to rattle or squeak.

    Re: trust me, do not buy a 997

    Quote:
    RC said:

    987 S (4700 km, 4 months old): NOTHING.





    Same here - 987 S (6,700 miles, 9 months old) : NOTHING

    Re: trust me, do not buy a 997

    Quote:
    harlandoc said:
    '06 997 S Cab.-4000 miles-roof still leaks, multiple squeaks despite multiple service visits, still have a grinding sound upon releasing clutch (of course, dealer says I'm not clutching properly despite my twenty years of manual transmission experience), DON'T DO IT! Save $20,000; go for BMW M5.




    My car has been rather flawless in its first 5,000 miles. I've not been to the dealership ONCE, for anything, nor is there anything pending.

    The car's been brilliant.

    In retrospect it's a damn good thing, that myself, and others, didn't see any posts like yours prior to buying our cars, and follow any knee-jerk or over-generalized ranting, insinuating that because one car has a leaky roof a noisy clutch and some rattles, that THEY ALL must be lousy, and hence be avoided.

    For $hits and giggles, let's all go over to the BMW forums to find the one or two guys who've bought new M5's that are absolutely losing their minds over flaws, defects, and their dealer's inability/ineptitude to address them promptly. There's going to be one or two poor victims of bad "luck of the draw" there, for sure, and on ANY make or marque's forum!! LOL!!!

    So in conclusion, harlandoc, I feel for you, and I wish to thank you. I thank you for your sacrifice. I thank you for having "taken one for the team". I thank you for "jumping on the grenade" that is your lemon-scented 997 cabrio, such that the rest of us can enjoy such superb and trouble-free and rattle-free cruising in our absolutely satisfactory 997's! There's a lemon in every lot, and you may have gotten it. I feel your pain, I've bought a lemon or two in my lifetime, and it sucks. But it's rather silly.... no, it's REALLY silly, to assume that because you're having a lousy time, that everybody is bound to, and should avoid the model et al... If I were a real humanitarian, I'd sell you mine...... but I'm not.

    By all means, feel free to relay your problems on here. If many others chime in with similar aggrevation, you may be onto something. But from where I sit, we are for the most part, a very happy and satisfied lot of 997 owners.

    BMW M5?? It's a 4-door, and it's a tank. A very fast tank, but hardly a 997 alternative. But then again, what really competes with the 997, in the area of overall driving experience? Very little, it's a lonely market.

    Re: trust me, do not buy a 997

    My 928 has no rattles none, the 996C4S has a buzzing noise in the rear seats here and there. My Targa went to the dealer 3 times and never got quiet despite the new Targa Technology. The 997S is quiet and sweet, I guess that means the car is not a female ha, LOL

    Re: trust me, do not buy a 997

    I'm German, and IMHO there's zero excuse for poor build quality on a German car. It simply should not be accepted. Blow the whistle and get your OPC going. Give them a chance to fix it but do not let them tell you obvious flaws are normal. Don't give up! Once the kinks are gone I bet you'll love your car.

    I had two Audi TTs and their QA was abysmal... totally shocked me since my family and I have been driving Audis for years and years and never had any real issues.. then along comes the TT which is manufactured in Hungary, combined with bad service.. and I'm sitting in my dealer's service garage on a regular base. Where the electronics wouldn't give out, the turbocharger died or the instrument cluster went on vacation. Just unacceptable, especially since my previous, average, experience with German cars was a very good one.

    The joys of offshoring and price pressure from other markets have certainly left their marks on German manufacturing. My step dad works for Audi and he mentioned some years ago that they're trying to match Lexus' QA standard.. catching up instead of leading.

    On the bright side, consumer reports have finally struck a chord with the German manufacturers it seems.. and one can hope the overall quality will move back to where it belongs.

    No issues on my 987 though, and judging from the boards I would think Porsches generally have a high build standard. All the more reason an owner of an occasional trouble car should stand up to them and raise hell to get it addressed. Good luck! It's worth the fight.

    Re: trust me, do not buy a 997

    If I had read even a smidgen of the Subaru forums before buying my WRX, I would never have brought for fear of the car falling to pieces (with the tranny exploding first...) the horror stories were all over the place.

    However, four years on and the car has been just fine. And people I know with the same car have had similar good experiences.

    Dig around on the internet on any car and you will find some dirt. Not saying that that makes it any easier being the unlucky individual who does have problems, but food for thought.

    Re: trust me, do not buy a 997

    Quote:
    harlandoc said:
    '06 997 S Cab.-4000 miles-roof still leaks, multiple squeaks despite multiple service visits, still have a grinding sound upon releasing clutch (of course, dealer says I'm not clutching properly despite my twenty years of manual transmission experience), DON'T DO IT! Save $20,000; go for BMW M5.



    I had an M5 and had more problems with it then my 997 S Cab. In the 7 months of my 997 S cab ownership I had to go to the dealer once to top off the brake fluid. That's it. Sorry you had some minor problems but that can happen with any new car. Especially a very high performance one.

    My friend just traded in his BMW 545 because the car was in service 3 or 4 times a month. The last problem he had was the car would shut off on the highway. It happened 3 times and they couldn't fix it. He's so frustrated because he traded in one of the new 7 series for the 545 because the 7 series had even more problems. It had a mind of it's own. At times the car would shake from side to side like a muscle car. At first it was funny but became an embarrasing problem. They tried to fix it over and over again with no luck he tried the 545. Now he's buying an Infiniti.

    Anyone that's bought their fair share of high performance cars knows the deal. If you haven't been around the block then maybe you're right a Porsche isn't for you.

    But I could understand your need to vent someplace.

    Re: trust me, do not buy a 997

    My M3 is on it's 3rd engine, 33K miles, and 3 years of ownership. Do I still love it, you bet that I do.

    997S problems so far - PCM needs to be replaced, CD player doesn't work. Probably going to have it done next week. So what, I still love it.

    No car is perfect, except Lexus, but if you don't want to fall asleep at the wheels do not buy a Lexus.

    Re: trust me, do not buy a 997

    August 4 - pick up of my 987S : 0 problems, 4500 miles.

    Re: trust me, do not buy a 997

    Quote:
    edz61 said:
    The 914's and old 911's hardly had anything on the interior, there were not that many parts to rattle or squeak.



    Maybe, but my 993 coupe had an occassional rattle in the dash and a constant squeaking coming from the back window. I understand the back window problem was very common with 993's. Looking the the dash of a 914 or older 911, one would think that there is very little that could rattle. Even if the fasteners were of a higher quality in the older cars, there was a lot less to fasten than in the current cars. Compare the electronics laden current cars with the older cars plain dash with a cut-out for the radio and several round gauges attached.

    Phil

    Re: trust me, do not buy a 997

    What is so unfortunate is that so much of the market accepts the you-can-have-performance-or-you-can-have-quality bromide that the hi-po car establishment has dished out over the years. Its the old "perhaps monsieur does not realize that this is a Ferrari and Ferraris ....." nonsense that oldtime enthusiats are willing to accept. Porsche knows exactly what it is building and exactly what people will put up with. It successfully pushes that envelope all the time. Untill the market produces real competition things are unlikely to change.

    Re: trust me, do not buy a 997

    Over past yr, have gotten 3 new P's (997S and two 996TTSCoupes)....after some 20K mis total, none of cars has had even one glitch/body build issue...just brilliant cars....will always have latest TurboSCoupe as my daily taxi...

    Have a pal who thought he was clever to get an allegedly boring but flawless Lexus as a daily driver (was stupid enough to believe the statistically worthless JDPowers drivel)....he was surprised to find elecrical gremlins, fuel pump failure and underwhelming dealer responses within a few mths of ownership......

    Sure, anecdotes don't replace statistically signif data for predictive value...and it always sucks when you're part of the deminimus lemon rate that even the best mfrs have....

    Re: trust me, do not buy a 997

    There's one enormous variable to take into consideration: how each driver drives and treats the car. Some baby them, some abuse them and most are somewhere inbetween. I think most cars are made to withstand differing treatment within certain tolerances. Some cars just have more generous tolerances than others.

    Having said that, there's no excuse for a car developing a fault when it's been very carefully looked after. That really is a build quality issue.

    Sorry if I'm just stating the obvious.

    Re: trust me, do not buy a 997

    Quote:
    cartouche said:

    SORRY BUDDY, BUT I DID IT !





    " I didn't do it " , " I did it "

    Its become a Rennteam phrase ..

    " Just do it " , leave that one thats " Nikes " ..

    throt..

    Re: trust me, do not buy a 997

    Funny my CD player was not working either, the 1st week, it's now replaced

    Re: trust me, do not buy a 997

    Quote:
    86BBUB said:
    What is so unfortunate is that so much of the market accepts the you-can-have-performance-or-you-can-have-quality bromide that the hi-po car establishment has dished out over the years. Its the old "perhaps monsieur does not realize that this is a Ferrari and Ferraris ....." nonsense that oldtime enthusiats are willing to accept. Porsche knows exactly what it is building and exactly what people will put up with. It successfully pushes that envelope all the time. Untill the market produces real competition things are unlikely to change.



    Nonsense.... I don't think anybody gives manufacturers a "pass" on quality if they can get performance. We're not willing to look the other way just to own a 911.

    In the BIG picture, quality of cars today is utterly amazing, from mechanical precision, to fit and finish, and everything in-between. I should know, I've got 150 examples of cars from 1911 to the present-day parked 50 feet away from me, and the progress isn't hard to see.

    There are several posts relating to the quality of prior Porsches. Back in the "good old days" when these supposed "quality" cars were being built, lemons still made it out the door, in higher percentages, and people back then were bitching about how the cars that came before those cars were so much better, and on and on.... Absence makes the heart grow fonder. 20 or 30 years from now, there will be a post on Rennteam about how the 999.5 and a half is so poorly built, and how things were so much better back in the 997 days...

    To demand quality and desire quality is obvious. To believe that every mass-produced vehicle can be perfect is an infinite goal, and one that can never be entirely achieved. There is nothing wrong in expecting quality, but having reasonable expectations is part of the game. Especially if you're familiar with the ungodly amount of work, man hours, thought, testing, engineering, and details, that goes into the development and production of any machine, from your Porsche, to your refridgerator, to your telephone...

    I'm not making excuses for Porsche, I'm just saying that armchair quarterbacking is not terribly productive....

    Re: trust me, do not buy a 997

    Well said, Boss

    Re: trust me, do not buy a 997

    11 months, 11,000 miles. One issue: check engine light went off. Dealer reset it, have had no issues since.

    Re: trust me, do not buy a 997

    Quote:
    69bossnine said:
    Quote:
    86BBUB said:
    What is so unfortunate is that so much of the market accepts the you-can-have-performance-or-you-can-have-quality bromide that the hi-po car establishment has dished out over the years. Its the old "perhaps monsieur does not realize that this is a Ferrari and Ferraris ....." nonsense that oldtime enthusiats are willing to accept. Porsche knows exactly what it is building and exactly what people will put up with. It successfully pushes that envelope all the time. Untill the market produces real competition things are unlikely to change.



    Nonsense.... I don't think anybody gives manufacturers a "pass" on quality if they can get performance. We're not willing to look the other way just to own a 911.

    In the BIG picture, quality of cars today is utterly amazing, from mechanical precision, to fit and finish, and everything in-between. I should know, I've got 150 examples of cars from 1911 to the present-day parked 50 feet away from me, and the progress isn't hard to see.

    There are several posts relating to the quality of prior Porsches. Back in the "good old days" when these supposed "quality" cars were being built, lemons still made it out the door, in higher percentages, and people back then were bitching about how the cars that came before those cars were so much better, and on and on.... Absence makes the heart grow fonder. 20 or 30 years from now, there will be a post on Rennteam about how the 999.5 and a half is so poorly built, and how things were so much better back in the 997 days...

    To demand quality and desire quality is obvious. To believe that every mass-produced vehicle can be perfect is an infinite goal, and one that can never be entirely achieved. There is nothing wrong in expecting quality, but having reasonable expectations is part of the game. Especially if you're familiar with the ungodly amount of work, man hours, thought, testing, engineering, and details, that goes into the development and production of any machine, from your Porsche, to your refridgerator, to your telephone...

    I'm not making excuses for Porsche, I'm just saying that armchair quarterbacking is not terribly productive....



    I've never read anything from manufactueres that have said "you-can-have-performance-or-you-can-have-quality"

    It's just a statistical fact that the more gizmos and complicated high performance features you have the greater the possibility that something goes wrong. If the poster didn't have a cabriolet and owned a automatic coupe maybe he wouldn't have had a single problem ?? I've never owned a more technical goodies laden automobile as the 997. It takes weeks just to read the manual & figure out all the electronic and other possibilities and even then you still won't use them all. It's like any other product manufactured with an almost endless amount of variables. Or product that is manufactured that pushes the envelope of stress on parts. Show me a race car engine that never needs to be re-built and I'll show you a last place race-car.


    "Untill the market produces real competition things are unlikely to change."
    Exactly. That's how good Ferrari's & Porsche's are.

    Re: trust me, do not buy a 997

    Quote:
    69bossnine said:
    Quote:
    harlandoc said:
    '06 997 S Cab.-4000 miles-roof still leaks, multiple squeaks despite multiple service visits, still have a grinding sound upon releasing clutch (of course, dealer says I'm not clutching properly despite my twenty years of manual transmission experience), DON'T DO IT! Save $20,000; go for BMW M5.




    So in conclusion, harlandoc, I feel for you, and I wish to thank you. I thank you for your sacrifice. I thank you for having "taken one for the team". I thank you for "jumping on the grenade" that is your lemon-scented 997 cabrio, such that the rest of us can enjoy such superb and trouble-free and rattle-free cruising in our absolutely satisfactory 997's! ... If I were a real humanitarian, I'd sell you mine...... but I'm not.




    LOL Boss!

    Re: trust me, do not buy a 997

    Quote:
    greggr107 said:
    Quote:
    69bossnine said:
    Quote:
    harlandoc said:
    '06 997 S Cab.-4000 miles-roof still leaks, multiple squeaks despite multiple service visits, still have a grinding sound upon releasing clutch (of course, dealer says I'm not clutching properly despite my twenty years of manual transmission experience), DON'T DO IT! Save $20,000; go for BMW M5.




    So in conclusion, harlandoc, I feel for you, and I wish to thank you. I thank you for your sacrifice. I thank you for having "taken one for the team". I thank you for "jumping on the grenade" that is your lemon-scented 997 cabrio, such that the rest of us can enjoy such superb and trouble-free and rattle-free cruising in our absolutely satisfactory 997's! ... If I were a real humanitarian, I'd sell you mine...... but I'm not.




    LOL Boss!



    Yea I like it ,, good one Boss ..

    throt..

    Re: trust me, do not buy a 997

    Sounds like a dealer issue. I've never had any problems with my 996C4S, 40k/daily driver/track rat. Just hope my 997C4S does as well. The '996 was the best, most reliable car I ever had.

    Re: trust me, do not buy a 997

    Quote:
    69bossnine said:
    Quote:
    86BBUB said:
    What is so unfortunate is that so much of the market accepts the you-can-have-performance-or-you-can-have-quality bromide that the hi-po car establishment has dished out over the years. Its the old "perhaps monsieur does not realize that this is a Ferrari and Ferraris ....." nonsense that oldtime enthusiats are willing to accept. Porsche knows exactly what it is building and exactly what people will put up with. It successfully pushes that envelope all the time. Untill the market produces real competition things are unlikely to change.



    Nonsense.... I don't think anybody gives manufacturers a "pass" on quality if they can get performance. We're not willing to look the other way just to own a 911.


    In the BIG picture, quality of cars today is utterly amazing, from mechanical precision, to fit and finish, and everything in-between. I should know, I've got 150 examples of cars from 1911 to the present-day parked 50 feet away from me, and the progress isn't hard to see.

    True to a limited extent. Some cars are very well made; some aren't. Many of todays prestige cars aren't. Old cars must be judged relative to their time. Comparing them to new cars is interesting but not informative. We have "owned them all" so I also have a pretty good sense of the progression of automobile quality. Most manufacturers have in fact gone downhill when each product is judged as a function of its era.


    There are several posts relating to the quality of prior Porsches. Back in the "good old days" when these supposed "quality" cars were being built, lemons still made it out the door, (TRUE) in higher percentages (SOURCES?), and people back then were bitching about how the cars that came before those cars were so much better, and on and on.... Absence makes the heart grow fonder 20 or 30 years from now, there will be a post on Rennteam about how the 999.5 and a half is so poorly built, and how things were so much better back in the 997 days...

    To demand quality and desire quality is obvious. To believe that every mass-produced vehicle can be perfect is an infinite goal, and one that can never be entirely achieved. There is nothing wrong in expecting quality, but having reasonable expectations is part of the game. Especially if you're familiar with the ungodly amount of work, man hours, thought, testing, engineering, and details, that goes into the development and production of any machine, from your Porsche, to your refridgerator, to your telephone...

    Basically agree
    I'm not making excuses for Porsche, I'm just saying that armchair quarterbacking is not terribly productive....

    Huh?



    Re: trust me, do not buy a 997

    Well said Stradale. Okay they don't like then they should not buy it no need for bashing a world class car!

    Re: trust me, do not buy a 997

    Quote:
    STRADALE said:
    Quote:
    69bossnine said:
    Quote:
    86BBUB said:
    What is so unfortunate is that so much of the market accepts the you-can-have-performance-or-you-can-have-quality bromide that the hi-po car establishment has dished out over the years. Its the old "perhaps monsieur does not realize that this is a Ferrari and Ferraris ....." nonsense that oldtime enthusiats are willing to accept. Porsche knows exactly what it is building and exactly what people will put up with. It successfully pushes that envelope all the time. Untill the market produces real competition things are unlikely to change.



    Nonsense.... I don't think anybody gives manufacturers a "pass" on quality if they can get performance. We're not willing to look the other way just to own a 911.

    In the BIG picture, quality of cars today is utterly amazing, from mechanical precision, to fit and finish, and everything in-between. I should know, I've got 150 examples of cars from 1911 to the present-day parked 50 feet away from me, and the progress isn't hard to see.

    There are several posts relating to the quality of prior Porsches. Back in the "good old days" when these supposed "quality" cars were being built, lemons still made it out the door, in higher percentages, and people back then were bitching about how the cars that came before those cars were so much better, and on and on.... Absence makes the heart grow fonder. 20 or 30 years from now, there will be a post on Rennteam about how the 999.5 and a half is so poorly built, and how things were so much better back in the 997 days...

    To demand quality and desire quality is obvious. To believe that every mass-produced vehicle can be perfect is an infinite goal, and one that can never be entirely achieved. There is nothing wrong in expecting quality, but having reasonable expectations is part of the game. Especially if you're familiar with the ungodly amount of work, man hours, thought, testing, engineering, and details, that goes into the development and production of any machine, from your Porsche, to your refridgerator, to your telephone...

    I'm not making excuses for Porsche, I'm just saying that armchair quarterbacking is not terribly productive....



    I've never read anything from manufactueres that have said "you-can-have-performance-or-you-can-have-quality"

    It's just a statistical fact that the more gizmos and complicated high performance features you have the greater the possibility that something goes wrong. If the poster didn't have a cabriolet and owned a automatic coupe maybe he wouldn't have had a single problem ?? I've never owned a more technical goodies laden automobile as the 997. It takes weeks just to read the manual & figure out all the electronic and other possibilities and even then you still won't use them all. It's like any other product manufactured with an almost endless amount of variables. Or product that is manufactured that pushes the envelope of stress on parts. Show me a race car engine that never needs to be re-built and I'll show you a last place race-car.


    "Untill the market produces real competition things are unlikely to change."
    Exactly. That's how good Ferrari's & Porsche's are.



    Of course you haven't! Why would they??? Yes; cars are far more complicated than they used to be. Ideally manufacturers would spend more time developing new features hand in hand with durability and reliability. Much of the massive depreciation you see today is a function of today's conventional wisdom: cars are not as durable and replacement parts/labor is too expensive.

    Re: trust me, do not buy a 997

    Quote:
    69bossnine said:
    I'm just saying that armchair quarterbacking is not terribly productive....




    Re: trust me, do not buy a 997

    Quote:
    69bossnine said:

    So in conclusion... I wish to thank you. I thank you for your sacrifice. I thank you for having "taken one for the team". I thank you for "jumping on the grenade" that is your lemon-scented 997 cabrio...."





    Boss,

    Love your posts, and how eloquently you convey your points. I feel as you do, that it's unfortunate for harlandoc that he is experiencing problems with his 997. My 997S has been problem and noise free, and I just love my car. However, I did laugh hard when reading your post. Just the way you used your words.

    John
    '06 Arctic Silver 997S
    '82 White 911SC Targa

    Re: trust me, do not buy a 997

    Nonesense, cars last longer than ever before. There might be issues with the electronis and the bells and whistles but the engines with proper care and maintenance last by far longer. The old cars without the computer driven engine and suspension were made simple, when they died, they died. The new cars are so advanced and so complicated and so many things can go wrong with them no matter what. However the new engines are built to last. Porsche claims the new 997's will go over 400,000 miles. I think we are unreasonable to expect nothing ever go wrong with our cars. Afterall it is designed by a human. There is nothing as magnificant and as well engineered as a human body, do we feel gr8 everyday? Don't we get sick?

    Re: trust me, do not buy a 997

    Quote:
    69bossnine said:
    Quote:
    86BBUB said:
    What is so unfortunate is that so much of the market accepts the you-can-have-performance-or-you-can-have-quality bromide that the hi-po car establishment has dished out over the years. Its the old "perhaps monsieur does not realize that this is a Ferrari and Ferraris ....." nonsense that oldtime enthusiats are willing to accept. Porsche knows exactly what it is building and exactly what people will put up with. It successfully pushes that envelope all the time. Untill the market produces real competition things are unlikely to change.



    Nonsense.... I don't think anybody gives manufacturers a "pass" on quality if they can get performance. We're not willing to look the other way just to own a 911.

    In the BIG picture, quality of cars today is utterly amazing, from mechanical precision, to fit and finish, and everything in-between. I should know, I've got 150 examples of cars from 1911 to the present-day parked 50 feet away from me, and the progress isn't hard to see.

    There are several posts relating to the quality of prior Porsches. Back in the "good old days" when these supposed "quality" cars were being built, lemons still made it out the door, in higher percentages, and people back then were bitching about how the cars that came before those cars were so much better, and on and on.... Absence makes the heart grow fonder. 20 or 30 years from now, there will be a post on Rennteam about how the 999.5 and a half is so poorly built, and how things were so much better back in the 997 days...

    To demand quality and desire quality is obvious. To believe that every mass-produced vehicle can be perfect is an infinite goal, and one that can never be entirely achieved. There is nothing wrong in expecting quality, but having reasonable expectations is part of the game. Especially if you're familiar with the ungodly amount of work, man hours, thought, testing, engineering, and details, that goes into the development and production of any machine, from your Porsche, to your refridgerator, to your telephone...

    I'm not making excuses for Porsche, I'm just saying that armchair quarterbacking is not terribly productive....



    Wow, this is a superb post. It sums up very eloquently the feelings I also have.

     
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