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    Re: AMS : GT-R vs 997 Turbo on Nurburgring

    WAY:

    I am starting to understand some of the push-back on GT-R by our European friends.  GT3 is only 30% more?  Over here, GTR is $149k, and GT3 is $279k, almost 100% more!  Would that change your view?
     

    GT-R here in Canada ia $98,900, GT3 is $138,000. Almost a 40% difference. Why are car prices in Australia so high? The CDN and AUS dollar are pretty close in relation to their value to the USD. Is it taxes?Smiley


    Re: AMS : GT-R vs 997 Turbo on Nurburgring

    MKSGR:
    Walter:
    I always loved the 993 and 996 Turbo a lot more than than the GT2s and GT3s because the Turbo was able 2 things at once: be fast on the race track and usable every day. If I wanted something for the track only I would do things properly and buy a Caterham or Radical.

     

    The funny thing is: I would have agreed with your view BEFORE I got my GT2...

    Today I really have to force myself to use my Audi (which is also a nice car per se - 450hp, 12 cylinders, B&O, Ceramic Brakes etc.). Why? Simply because I enjoy the GT2 tremendously in day-to-day use.

    Example: next week I need to go to: Basel, Stuttgart, Berlin (total ca. 2000km). I really needed to "force" me to put the GT2 into the garage and take out the Audi (I need to give some people a ride next week...). While one could argue that the GT2 is not at all suited for doing 2000km in three days the truth is that there is no car which is more fun on these trips than a GT2 Smiley Since owning the car I do approx. 3000km a month with it Smiley

    I can't believe you forgot about the most important part, Drag Racing in a RWD 911 with LC that doesn't void your warranty Smiley

     


    --


    Re: AMS : GT-R vs 997 Turbo on Nurburgring

    JoeRocketHead, yeah cars are expensive here because of taxes.  Luxury cars also attract additional taxes called Luxury car tax.  And the reason why I was so keen on a GTR early on is because it is really a bargain relative to it's rivals.  But I am over it now because ultimately it cannot be a track car (too expensive to run and maintain) and nowhere near as good as a daily driver than say my C63.


    Re: AMS : GT-R vs 997 Turbo on Nurburgring

    WAY:
    I am starting to understand some of the push-back on GT-R by our European friends.  GT3 is only 30% more?  Over here, GTR is $149k, and GT3 is $279k, almost 100% more!  Would that change your view?
     

    No, the GT3 is 40% more expensive. (83'500 vs. 116'900 Euros)


    Re: AMS : GT-R vs 997 Turbo on Nurburgring

    WAY:

    JoeRocketHead, yeah cars are expensive here because of taxes.  Luxury cars also attract additional taxes called Luxury car tax.  And the reason why I was so keen on a GTR early on is because it is really a bargain relative to it's rivals.  But I am over it now because ultimately it cannot be a track car (too expensive to run and maintain) and nowhere near as good as a daily driver than say my C63.

    Thanks for the info Wade. All we have here is $5K in guzzler tax on cars like the M6/M5, DBS etc. so I find those taxes excessive. The C63 is much more desirable as a daily driver than the GT-R IMHO.


    Re: AMS : GT-R vs 997 Turbo on Nurburgring

     R35 has also beaten GT2's in all three Targa races here in Australia/NZ.....on real roads and real world conditions.....and one of Australias best known Drivers in one of the GT2's that has won these races numerous times has now been beaten by the new GTR several times......

    Not just at the ring ....but anywhere....Anytime....Anyone.......Smiley


    Re: AMS : GT-R vs 997 Turbo on Nurburgring

    But slower in every way....and more common then the GTR.....You will never see as many R35's on the road as you will GT3's.....

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bc8Cf2gTM8

    So its faster and it's safer in AWD and has none of this slow into corner and fast out......or you may do a 180......and it costs less.....and it's not as common.

    As I thought..........Porsche is selling their products for way to much and will be loosing more sales every year as it's not only the R35 proofing to be a better/wiser purchase.

    Now this is a shame as we would all like to still see Porsche still making their fine Cars in 20

    years from now......but unless they improve their line to be a much better performing product then it's main rivals they cannot justify their huge purchase difference.

    PS: These comments are not driven by anything other then common sense and experience as I own both the new GTR and Porsche CS ......

     

     


    Re: AMS : GT-R vs 997 Turbo on Nurburgring

    I'm picking up my GT5 copy this week


    --


    Re: AMS : GT-R vs 997 Turbo on Nurburgring

     Is this a world release or just for you lucky Americans again.....my son tried and was told not for a while yet by the local dealer.....


    Re: AMS : GT-R vs 997 Turbo on Nurburgring

    gman:

    But slower in every way....and more common then the GTR.....You will never see as many R35's on the road as you will GT3's.....

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bc8Cf2gTM8

    So its faster and it's safer in AWD and has none of this slow into corner and fast out......or you may do a 180......and it costs less.....and it's not as common.

    As I thought..........Porsche is selling their products for way to much and will be loosing more sales every year as it's not only the R35 proofing to be a better/wiser purchase.

    Now this is a shame as we would all like to still see Porsche still making their fine Cars in 20

    years from now......but unless they improve their line to be a much better performing product then it's main rivals they cannot justify their huge purchase difference.

    PS: These comments are not driven by anything other then common sense and experience as I own both the new GTR and Porsche CS ......

     

     

    I don't think that Porsche prices their cars "way too high". Anyhow, I would not complain either if they lowered their prices...

    Porsche offers the best package - and they charge for it Smiley Of course, you can debate whether one should/would pay the premium Porsche asks for a GT2, for example. However, for me what counts is that the GT2 is faster, more reliable and better feeling than most cars (including the GTR). That's why I pay the premium - and feel very well Smiley

    P.S.: If you are interested in the performance potential of the GTR you may want to read some serious tests...


    Re: AMS : GT-R vs 997 Turbo on Nurburgring

    MKSGR:

    P.S.: If you are interested in the performance potential of the GTR you may want to read some serious tests...

    Like this one? http://www.germancarzone.com/internal-combustion/29736-autobild-sportscars-corvette-zr1-vs-nissan-gt-r.html

    It's Autobild but I remember you are ok with that. So far, the GT-R has been the fastest in EVERY German comparison test. And some people were worriying about the performance of the Euro Spec...


    Re: AMS : GT-R vs 997 Turbo on Nurburgring

    Walter:
    MKSGR:

    P.S.: If you are interested in the performance potential of the GTR you may want to read some serious tests...

    Like this one? http://www.germancarzone.com/internal-combustion/29736-autobild-sportscars-corvette-zr1-vs-nissan-gt-r.html

    It's Autobild but I remember you are ok with that. So far, the GT-R has been the fastest in EVERY German comparison test. And some people were worriying about the performance of the Euro Spec...

     

    Most interesting tests to date are from AutoBild, AutoZeitung and - of course - the upcoming SportAuto Supertest.


    Re: AMS : GT-R vs 997 Turbo on Nurburgring

     

    So the R35 has better Power delivery (no lag) and is faster and handles better (Porsche is described as loose) then the AWD Porsche Turbo and cost a lot more in most corners of the world...........

     

     

    http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id=31&article_id=6594 


    Re: AMS : GT-R vs 997 Turbo on Nurburgring

    The main thing is that you feel well about paying premium prices.......

    But if I was you I would not read this Article below then....may make you feel different.

     

    http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id=31&article_id=6594 


    Re: AMS : GT-R vs 997 Turbo on Nurburgring

    Yeah, it's got the speed and handling, it's just not a desirable car. Sorry man, but the car is butt ugly and worse, it has no character. Several reviews say it's really fast, but 'boring' to drive, I assume because of the lack of driver involvement. I'd rather spend more money to drift a GT3 around a track while white-knuckling the steering wheel like. The GT-R is faster around the track with all the driver aids ON rather than off!

    Anyway, that's just my opinion, I don't know why other people don't like it. It's very respectable and I'm glad it has raised the bar for performance cars. But, I've heard all the good things about the GT-R and I still don't want one, regardles of how less expensive it is.


    Re: AMS : GT-R vs 997 Turbo on Nurburgring

     It's all good........someone has to support Porsche......


    Re: AMS : GT-R vs 997 Turbo on Nurburgring

    gman:

     

    So the R35 has better Power delivery (no lag) and is faster and handles better (Porsche is described as loose) then the AWD Porsche Turbo and cost a lot more in most corners of the world...........

     

     

    http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id=31&article_id=6594 

     

    You seem to switch between 997TT/GT3/GT2... Of course, the GTR handles better than the 997TT (this is supported by the tests available). However, compared to the GT3 or GT2 the GTR handles worse (see AutoZeitung test, for example where they compare they describe the handling in tighter and faster sections of the track) Smiley


    Re: AMS : GT-R vs 997 Turbo on Nurburgring

    You must be joking right.......besides winning all 3 premier Targa events in Australia recently against GT2's and 600k Lambos.........Watch the comparison between The GTR & GT3..

    Forget the GT3 against the GTR....no comparison....its headhunting the GT2....and has now got quiet a few GT2 Heads.....

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bc8Cf2gTM8

     

    PS: You guys are funny....so one-eyed to one Badge......

     

     


    Re: AMS : GT-R vs 997 Turbo on Nurburgring

    gman:

    You must be joking right.......besides winning all 3 premier Targa events in Australia recently against GT2's and 600k Lambos.........Watch the comparison between The GTR & GT3..

    Forget the GT3 against the GTR....no comparison....its headhunting the GT2....and has now got quiet a few GT2 Heads.....

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bc8Cf2gTM8

     

    PS: You guys are funny....so one-eyed to one Badge......

     

     

     you have posted this video on this page already, see your 5th last post. Maybe you wanted to post another video Smiley


    --


    Re: AMS : GT-R vs 997 Turbo on Nurburgring

    I know........just thought you may needed reminding after that post of your's......

     Maybe it's all a conspiracy all these  articles and GTR's winning against        GT2'sand  GT3's around the Globe......or just maybe Nissan targeted Porsche and

    their 911 Turbo and spent 5 years developing and then proof to the world that it's

    better cheaper and anyone can drive it fast without that white knuckle death grip on

    the steering wheel.........Hey......hang-on they did.

     

     


    Re: AMS : GT-R vs 997 Turbo on Nurburgring

    The part that many seem to miss is that this generation of 997 TT seemed to be intentionally moved towards more of a GT type vehicle with track duties moved towards the GT series of 911s.  And as many people critics point out the TT seemed to be tuned as well to bring back some of the drama of a rear engined car that was removed in the 996, look at how many people quickly modded coilovers and alignments on the TT.  This critisms were out there well before the GTR ever hit the scene.  So the GTR targets the TT on the track and is faster, big deal, TT obviously not meant as a track car, the GT2 is what Porshce intended to be the Track version of the Turbo and yes it is clearly reliably faster than the GTR.


    --
    2007 997TT Blk/Blk 2007 X3 Sil Gry/Taupe 2002 E46 M3 Slvr/Blk (gone)

    Re: AMS : GT-R vs 997 Turbo on Nurburgring

    GT2 clearly not faster here in Australia...One of the GT2's .Had the most experienced Driver of the field and got done in all 3 Races/events.......... (Had won the event 8 times,before the R35 arrived)

     

    It 's just not so.....I posted Different major race results before.......In every race it beat the GT2's....Three major Targa events and won all...

    GT2 just can't get the power down as well as the GTR......even the AWD Lambos got done

    in all 3 Events.

     


    Re: AMS : GT-R vs 997 Turbo on Nurburgring

    gman:

    GT2 clearly not faster here in Australia...One of the GT2's .Had the most experienced Driver of the field and got done in all 3 Races/events.......... (Had won the event 8 times,before the R35 arrived)

     

    It 's just not so.....I posted Different major race results before.......In every race it beat the GT2's....Three major Targa events and won all...

    GT2 just can't get the power down as well as the GTR......even the AWD Lambos got done

    in all 3 Events.

     


    What you seem to overlook is that the person you speak off, Jim Richards, has won Targa Tassie on several occasions using a 911 Turbo. He has tried using GT2s and GT3s but has failed not because they are inferior.... because of traction issues. He chose to challenge himself because I'd be betting it was boring turning up each year and destroying the competition including highly tuned R34s with his bog standard 997TT.

     Targa tasmania is in the far south of australia where the temperature when it is run is in the mid 10oC with rain/showers/dew and off camber country roads. Cars with semi slick track tyres aren't exactly in their ideal conditions in such an environment. When he was in the 4wd he was untouchable.... Hell, he has gone up against the R34 in the GT2 and lost by a few seconds over a 5 day event with complete disadvantage as far as traction is concerned....

    You keep on carrying on about the GTR being so great and winning all the targas- So what! Mitsubishi Evo's have won these events and it aint because they are super great, its because they had the advantage of traction in wet conditions... The regular tyres and 4wd are why the R35 won, not speed, not supreme handling....just grip....

    Try a new argument and state all the facts. Not just what YOU seem to think is of importance....

     Furthermore, the only reason the GT2 wasn't there in the end was due to a crash, for the first time in 16 yrs of running the event, Richards punctured the radiator. He was one second off the pace at that point. Says even less for the R35 if a rear wheel drive track car on semi slicks can keep up with it... Does it not???


    Re: AMS : GT-R vs 997 Turbo on Nurburgring

     "The regular tyres and 4wd are why the R35 won, not speed"

    You forget that the R35 was not the only AWD in these races and 2 where AWD Lambos....

    and also I was talking about all the 3 Races /Targas...Western one had plenty of Sun....

    I agree that Richards was setting himself a challenge driving the GT2 against the AWD Cars and would again run supreme if he stepped back into the GTR...but hey lets just agree that the Man is a legend and a Gentleman as I don't wish to turn this into an endless pissing contest.

     

    PS: I will be at the next Tasie Targa....and will be competing in a WRX the year after.......Best racing on the Planet......

     


    Re: AMS : GT-R vs 997 Turbo on Nurburgring

    Did not forget at all... Evos are 4wd and were up their with the best of them including lambos that cost 7 times as much... The facts are simply that the odds are stacked up against a 530hp,RWD track car on semi-slicks being competitive on wet greasy roads and yet with the exception of his little f# up he was taking it to the best of them. You surely can't be saying that you are sure the R35 of Quinn had it in the bag had Richards not stuffed up... Be fair with your assesment of results...

    And good luck with your driving aspirations, I'm sure you'll have fun...

    PS.I don't think he'll need a GTR, I think he'll suprise you even in a 997TT Smiley


    Re: AMS : GT-R vs 997 Turbo on Nurburgring

    Yes .....Thanx........Will only be for fun as I'm no Richards.... 


    Re: AMS : GT-R vs 997 Turbo on Nurburgring

    gman, did you do Dutton Victoria with your GTR?  There were 3 in the race and those things are quick in the hands of amatuers like us.  But ultimately it was the usual EVOs and STIs that finish on top.  I raced a 135i and will take it more seriously next year although the AWDs will win as usual!


    Re: AMS : GT-R vs 997 Turbo on Nurburgring

    No...would have been good to be there......don't wanna track my GTR...(Don't have money to burn like these GT2 owners......) That's the idea of getting a S/H WRX and then......."Like a Bat out of hell"........

     

    PS: What's the entry fee etc ?...... $6000 plus for Tasie Targa......just to enter and then the rest....Smiley


    Re: AMS : GT-R vs 997 Turbo on Nurburgring

    gman:

    You must be joking right.......besides winning all 3 premier Targa events in Australia recently against GT2's and 600k Lambos.........Watch the comparison between The GTR & GT3..

    Forget the GT3 against the GTR....no comparison....its headhunting the GT2....and has now got quiet a few GT2 Heads.....

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bc8Cf2gTM8

     

    PS: You guys are funny....so one-eyed to one Badge......

     

     

     I am not joking. That's why I posted above that you might want to read some of the available tests to expand your current view. The GTR does not handle as good as the GT3 or GT2. The reason why the GTR delivers similar lap times as the GT3 MK2 is that the GTR has about 50hp more. On tighter tracks the GT3 is still faster (given better suspension, steering). Just take a look at the upcoming Supertest for example, where the GT3 is faster on HHR (short track with more tighter sectors) or the AZ test driven by Kurt Thiim which also states that the GT3 is faster in the tighter section of the track wheras the GTR gains in the faster sectors.

    The GT2 is in a totally different league than the GTR: 1s on HHR, 5s on NBR (Supertest). The GT3 Mk2 is on par with the GTR (2s slower on NBR, 0.5s faster on the HHR).


    Re: AMS : GT-R vs 997 Turbo on Nurburgring

    Gauss:
    gman:

    You must be joking right.......besides winning all 3 premier Targa events in Australia recently against GT2's and 600k Lambos.........Watch the comparison between The GTR & GT3..

    Forget the GT3 against the GTR....no comparison....its headhunting the GT2....and has now got quiet a few GT2 Heads.....

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bc8Cf2gTM8

     

    PS: You guys are funny....so one-eyed to one Badge......

     

     

     you have posted this video on this page already, see your 5th last post. Maybe you wanted to post another video Smiley

     The video he posted was posted here months ago. It shows a test on a desert track with varying track conditions (sand on the track surface). It is of no value for serious discussions.


     
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