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    AWD system 997 Turbo

    Which kind of transmission's system will adopt the 997 TT???I've read on the web that will have electronic differentials (actives diff. as WRC????)

    Re: AWD system 997 Turbo

    Yes, I presume it will like the "Active Differential" on the Lancer EVO street car but we will have to wait for more info.

    Re: AWD system 997 Turbo

    Quote:
    carlos fromspain said:
    Yes, I presume it will like the "Active Differential" on the Lancer EVO street car but we will have to wait for more info.



    I wonder what it will act like. LSD, viscous coupling, torsen, open diff and so on.

    Re: AWD system 997 Turbo

    TopherV,

    If its like the active differential of Lancer then its like a mechanical LSD but with the ability to vary the lock up electronically governed by software that monitors its needs by sensors (like PSM does). How it will act like depends on how they design it (more intrusive, more sporty, etc) the Lacer Evo's works great but the Haldex on the Audi TT/A3 Quattro and Golf 4motion sucks.
    Since the software can vary the torque split form front vs rear "when it wants to", not only when there is actual slippage like a normal mechanical LSD. So it can do so in advance unlike mechanical differentials, for example under hard acceleration it can send the torque to the rear wheels for greater traction "before" there is any traction loss so it can be very effective. Ironically, the first ones to use a system of this type was Porsche themselves with the 959's "PSK" AWD system.

    Funny, the 9997TT will reincorporate old engeneering wonders from Porsche's past, the dual-clucth (ala Audi/VW DSG tranny) which was actually first invented by Porsche for the 956/962 race cars and was called PDK, and now maybe a new version of the electronic AWD invented by Porsche first, the PSK

    PDK, PSK, adaptive suspensions, 2nd gen ceramic brakes, more power, etc. the 997TT may be an interesting surprise its will surely be the most "effective" sportcar of the bunch

    Re: AWD system 997 Turbo

    Quote:
    carlos fromspain said:
    TopherV,

    If its like the active differential of Lancer then its like a mechanical LSD but with the ability to vary the lock up electronically governed by software that monitors its needs by sensors (like PSM does). How it will act like depends on how they design it (more intrusive, more sporty, etc) the Lacer Evo's works great but the Haldex on the Audi TT/A3 Quattro and Golf 4motion sucks.
    Since the software can vary the torque split form front vs rear "when it wants to", not only when there is actual slippage like a normal mechanical LSD. So it can do so in advance unlike mechanical differentials, for example under hard acceleration it can send the torque to the rear wheels for greater traction "before" there is any traction loss so it can be very effective. Ironically, the first ones to use a system of this type was Porsche themselves with the 959's "PSK" AWD system.

    Funny, the 9997TT will reincorporate old engeneering wonders from Porsche's past, the dual-clucth (ala Audi/VW DSG tranny) which was actually first invented by Porsche for the 956/962 race cars and was called PDK, and now maybe a new version of the electronic AWD invented by Porsche first, the PSK

    PDK, PSK, adaptive suspensions, 2nd gen ceramic brakes, more power, etc. the 997TT may be an interesting surprise its will surely be the most "effective" sportcar of the bunch



    I've been wondering why Porsche hasn't used the same trickle-down technology that Ferrari has recently been putting in their cars. Porsche's 959 had the approximate equivalent of what the new Ferrari F430 now offers (varying traction programs for varying road surfaces/conditions) almost 20 years ago! Porsche has had experience with clutchless manuals for years gut hasn't yet put one in a road car - even the performance/track oriented models. Wonder why.........RC?

    Re: AWD system 997 Turbo

    The 959's AWD was a very expensive system, so probably considered by Porsche not cost effective in the 964/993 911's of the time. Ferrari as fas as I know, only now started to incorporate active diferential tech with the F430 and its only for the rear axl, not AWD. As to the type of auto tranny, I guess Porsche was always more focused on manuals and also took the road of the torque converters applied to sportcars since they started with the innovative Sportomatic auto offerred already in the early 911's, and then pioneering the introduction into mainstream cars the modern computerised torque converter autos with their Tiptronic, the best of its class. Now that sequentials are almost mainstream they seem to be coming out with the best of the best in sequentials, a double-clutch sequential, while Ferrari is still with the 6-speed single clutch that is slower than BMW's sequential (6 and 7 speed).

    Re: AWD system 997 Turbo

    Quote:
    Jeff (in SF) said:
    Quote:
    carlos fromspain said:
    TopherV,

    If its like the active differential of Lancer then its like a mechanical LSD but with the ability to vary the lock up electronically governed by software that monitors its needs by sensors (like PSM does). How it will act like depends on how they design it (more intrusive, more sporty, etc) the Lacer Evo's works great but the Haldex on the Audi TT/A3 Quattro and Golf 4motion sucks.
    Since the software can vary the torque split form front vs rear "when it wants to", not only when there is actual slippage like a normal mechanical LSD. So it can do so in advance unlike mechanical differentials, for example under hard acceleration it can send the torque to the rear wheels for greater traction "before" there is any traction loss so it can be very effective. Ironically, the first ones to use a system of this type was Porsche themselves with the 959's "PSK" AWD system.

    Funny, the 9997TT will reincorporate old engeneering wonders from Porsche's past, the dual-clucth (ala Audi/VW DSG tranny) which was actually first invented by Porsche for the 956/962 race cars and was called PDK, and now maybe a new version of the electronic AWD invented by Porsche first, the PSK

    PDK, PSK, adaptive suspensions, 2nd gen ceramic brakes, more power, etc. the 997TT may be an interesting surprise its will surely be the most "effective" sportcar of the bunch



    I've been wondering why Porsche hasn't used the same trickle-down technology that Ferrari has recently been putting in their cars. Porsche's 959 had the approximate equivalent of what the new Ferrari F430 now offers (varying traction programs for varying road surfaces/conditions) almost 20 years ago! Porsche has had experience with clutchless manuals for years gut hasn't yet put one in a road car - even the performance/track oriented models. Wonder why.........RC?



    I feel that it would be another step further from their philosophy. Having the standard shift is becoming "old school" these days, dont you think? Every company is putting a tiptronic or sequential gearbox in place. I would always prefer manual over a tiptronic. Its just something about a manual tranny that puts you in "race mode".

    Re: AWD system 997 Turbo

    Are you saying that Ferrari's F1 is slower than BMW's SMG3, Carlos?

    Re: AWD system 997 Turbo

    ferrari changes the gear completely in 150ms, Bmw M5 in 65ms but only the operation of open the cluth!!!!!

    Re: AWD system 997 Turbo

    Quote:
    danny828 said:
    Are you saying that Ferrari's F1 is slower than BMW's SMG3, Carlos?



    Yes, BMW's SMG not only shifts faster than Ferrari's F1, but it can also have 7-speeds as well.

    Re: AWD system 997 Turbo

    Thats the advantage of double clutch! I am wondering how long it will take before DSG makes it to F1, in which every ms counts.
    -Joost-

    Re: AWD system 997 Turbo

    even the E46 M3's SMG is faster than the F360, dont know about the F430 however.

    in any case, DSG is the way of the future.

    Re: AWD system 997 Turbo

    Quote:
    Joost said:
    Thats the advantage of double clutch! I am wondering how long it will take before DSG makes it to F1, in which every ms counts.
    -Joost-



    Joost, I know Ferrari loves to use the publicity of the Formula 1 efforts to sell their cars but the sequential of the Formula 1 Ferraris and their shift speed have nothing to do with the "F1" sequential that the street Ferraris use. The Formula 1 cars' sequential is much much faster. Also, with the double clutch there seems to be a problem and that is that its clutches dont seem to be able to handle much power since in order to fit TWO clutches inside the tranny, they have to be small. So it may be tougher to make it work for a F1 car. The Audi/VW DSG only works up to the 250HP cars.

    Re: AWD system 997 Turbo

    OK, didn't know that. But what can't work, needs to be engineered! There will be a day when double clutches CAN handle big power.
    BTW; I never really understood the sequential story... I know it's clutchless, and therefore (?) faster, but how does it work? Any pic in comparison to a normal gearbox?
    -Joost-

    Re: AWD system 997 Turbo

    The Formula 1 don't need DSG. As long as Ferrari hasn't devloped such clutch it won't be part of the regulations.

    BAR has developed a new system to switch the gears without loosing any power. What happend, Ferarri and FIA introduced a new regulation, that between two shifts it must be at least 150 ms time with power interrupt. So the Formula 1 will not be in this area the technology leader as some may think. The new BMW SMG III will be twice as fast as a Formula 1 car!


    Greetings

    AN

    Re: AWD system 997 Turbo

    Quote:
    Joost said:
    BTW; I never really understood the sequential story... I know it's clutchless, and therefore (?) faster, but how does it work? Any pic in comparison to a normal gearbox?
    -Joost-



    The sequential gearbox has a clutch, just not a clutch pedal. And the clutch is operated by hydraulics instead of your left foot. From the BMW M5 pressrelease:

    "As a matter of principle, all gears of the SMG transmission are shifted electro-hydraulically. The SMG gearbox features shift-by-wire technology, which has its origins in aerospace synergism and by which gears are changed in the fraction of a second without a mechanical link. In contrast to previous six-speed SMG transmission, the new M5's SMG hydraulic unit and the actuators have been integrated into the transmission housing. If a gear change request is made, the control unit actuates the respective magnetic valves which control the overall system's hydraulics. As a next step, the hydraulic oil with a high operating pressure of up to 90 bar flows swiftly via a magnetic valve into the clutch master cylinder to open the clutch. Then, using solenoid valves in the hydraulic unit, four hydraulic cylinders in the actuator are switched, which carry out the actual shifting process by means of four separate gearshift rods. When shifting down, the engine double-declutches automatically."

    Read the whole article here:
    BMW M5 - New sequential transmission

    Re: AWD system 997 Turbo

    Quote:
    Joost said:
    OK, didn't know that. But what can't work, needs to be engineered! There will be a day when double clutches CAN handle big power.


    Yes, power is one current problem. And because DSG uses computer to "pre-select" the next up/down gear. It will not allow for any racing that requires manual (sequential or not) shifting.

    Re: AWD system 997 Turbo

    Thanks!
    -Joost-

     
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