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    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    amazon:

    Do not get me wrong. The 991 might still be a sportscar, but the car looks more and more like a GT.


    Agreed. And it more and more feels and drives like a GT. Smiley


    --

    The secret of life is to admire without desiring.


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    Rossi:
    amazon:

    Do not get me wrong. The 991 might still be a sportscar, but the car looks more and more like a GT.


    Agreed. And it more and more feels and drives like a GT. Smiley

    +1


    --

    Gen II Cayman S


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    GR:
    Rossi:
    amazon:

    Do not get me wrong. The 991 might still be a sportscar, but the car looks more and more like a GT.


    Agreed. And it more and more feels and drives like a GT. Smiley

    +1

    And Porsche refuses to develop the Cayman to its potential so it will not overlap with the 911.  Ironic, isn't it?


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    Are you totally sure in Cayman 981 potential?


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    KresoF1:

    Are you totally sure in Cayman 981 potential?

    Yes.   Give the S the same output as the base 991 and see which one is the better car.  The 911 holds the edge because Porsche emasculates the 981. 


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    This is just another 25 HP. Could the Cayman handle a Turbo S engine to rival the junior supercars? I don't know 


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    Cayman with a 3.4 9000rrpm engine and a ''gt3'" treatment would be an interesting car


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    CGX car nut:
    KresoF1:

    Are you totally sure in Cayman 981 potential?

    Yes.   Give the S the same output as the base 991 and see which one is the better car.  The 911 holds the edge because Porsche emasculates the 981. 

    I believe Kreso was referring to the recent Cayman S Sportauto supertest, which clearly indicates that the 981 platform is nowhere near the 991 platform in term of dynamic capability.  You may have missed that thread.


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    Rossi:
    amazon:

    Do not get me wrong. The 991 might still be a sportscar, but the car looks more and more like a GT.


    Agreed. And it more and more feels and drives like a GT. Smiley

    So how would a non-GT sports car drive and feel? Smiley Especially since you haven't even driven the new 991 Turbo S? Smiley I know that many don't like how the new 991 Carrera drives and feels but let me ask again: How should it drive and feel because it still is a lot faster than all the previous models? Should it be slower? Smiley Smiley

    The 911 is a wonderful sports car. If the 991 Turbo S is too easy to drive for you, I suggest getting the upcoming 991 GT2 RS. Pretty simple. The next GT2 RS is a 911 too, just in case you forgot.

    Stupid question: Why did you get a 997 Turbo S? Why not a GT3 RS 4.0 or GT3 RS? Just curious? Smiley

    I get the feeling that you are more upset at Porsche for putting a new 911 Turbo S on the market so soon, not because it is more of a GT. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (ordered), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    Ziggy:
    CGX car nut:
    KresoF1:

    Are you totally sure in Cayman 981 potential?

    Yes.   Give the S the same output as the base 991 and see which one is the better car.  The 911 holds the edge because Porsche emasculates the 981. 

    I believe Kreso was referring to the recent Cayman S Sportauto supertest, which clearly indicates that the 981 platform is nowhere near the 991 platform in term of dynamic capability.  You may have missed that thread.

    It isn't. However Cayman buyers want to believe it is and I doubt that Porsche would mess up with these beliefs because it keeps the Cayman sales going... Smiley I always said that the Boxster is the best buy in this segment but, well... Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (ordered), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    GT is a misused term. According to the universal definition, GT (grand tourer) is a luxury and/or performance car capable of high speed long distance driving. The body must be 2 door coupe with 2 seats or 2+2.

    Within, the above definition fall automobiles of a great variety from the Bentley Continental GT to the F12 Berlinetta. Some put more emphasis on comfort and ride others on sharpness,  but without sacrificing speed and  long distance ability.

    in this sense, most of the 911s have been GTs and as they kept evolving the  comfort and long  distance ability has been increasing but not at the expense of sportiness.  The 991 is the culmination of this trend. Nowadays, we have a superb sports car (agile,communicative and rewarding) but we can also travel in more comfort and stay unruffled after a long drive, compared to previous generations of the 911. Porsche offer the best of both worlds now, and also at reasonable prices, in the case of the Carrera S. 


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

     

    While I have a 991 Turbo S on order and am excited about it, I do worry a bit with the direction Porsche is taking the 911.  I bought a 991 S as soon as they came out, trading in a 997 GTS.   Kept the car about 10 days before trading it back in for a 997 and losing a good deal of money in the process.  911's have always had a wonderful raw edge to them  even when driving down to the corner market.  My 991 just felt too much like a Merc SL which I have had a number of and never kept because they were so heavy and always felt like a small sedan not really a sports car.
     
    I think the longer wheel base is a factor, gives higher track lap times but clearly takes away some of the classic  and unique feel of the 911.  Take a hard sharp turn at 40 mph in a 997 and a lot of little things are going on, take the same turn in a 991 and absolutely nothing is going on - just a dead flat, no wiggle turn in.   Felt kind of sterile to me.
     
    With about 7 inches more shoulder room the 991 also loses some of the cozy feel of the 911.  Getting into my 911's has always felt like slipping on a very comfortable glove, everything was just perfect -I didn't get that feel in the 991.  I have a Panamera Turbo as my daily driver and love the car and interior, but can't say I really liked it in the 991.  
     
    Finally, I have always looked forward each day to walking up to the car, slipping into it and cranking the engine - just nothing like it in the car world IMO.  The final straw that led me to trade the 991 was when I suddenly realized I wasn't getting that feeling any more.  I tried to analyze why the feeling had gone away and concluded it was several things.  One being the car felt so much larger inside as mentioned above.  Second little thing being the lack of a real key - always enjoyed carefully inserting the key to crank the car.  Final reason was the way the engine started - seems instantaneous, almost like starting an electric motor.  Hearing the engine turn over a couple of times  and then roaring to life with a wonderful array of sounds was basically gone along with the magic of it all.  After thinking about it awhile I realized that they had to do it this way if they wanted the start stop function at stop lights to work - need instantaneous start with no cranking sound.  This was a terrible trade off IMO.  I can't imagine turning on such a stop/start function in my 991 and thank goodness we have the option to turn it off.
     
    Porsche is clearly trying to expand the size of the market segment for the 911 with the changes made in the 991 by taking it more in the direction of what most of us understand to be a GT car.  I am very hopeful that the Turbo version will bring back some of the magic for me.  I have lost count of the number of 911's I have owned over the years going back to the air cooled ones.  Loved each and every one until the 991.  I truly hate the thought of walking away from them so am taking a last shot with the Turbo.  By the way, would certainly own a GT3, if it weren't for the fixed spoiler sticking way up in the air - just to much boy racer for me, even though I have owned a blue Viper with a white strip running down the middle and sometimes ask myself if I am overreacting to the spoiler.
     
     

    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    RC:
    Rossi:
    amazon:

    Do not get me wrong. The 991 might still be a sportscar, but the car looks more and more like a GT.


    Agreed. And it more and more feels and drives like a GT. Smiley

    So how would a non-GT sports car drive and feel? Smiley Especially since you haven't even driven the new 991 Turbo S? Smiley I know that many don't like how the new 991 Carrera drives and feels but let me ask again: How should it drive and feel because it still is a lot faster than all the previous models? Should it be slower? Smiley Smiley

    The 911 is a wonderful sports car. If the 991 Turbo S is too easy to drive for you, I suggest getting the upcoming 991 GT2 RS. Pretty simple. The next GT2 RS is a 911 too, just in case you forgot.

    Stupid question: Why did you get a 997 Turbo S? Why not a GT3 RS 4.0 or GT3 RS? Just curious? Smiley

    I get the feeling that you are more upset at Porsche for putting a new 911 Turbo S on the market so soon, not because it is more of a GT. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (ordered), BMW X3 35d (2013)

    Rc, you seem to always reduce everything to speed. As long as a car is faster, you are fine with it. You bought the panamera turbo S on that same idea... And now you want to get rid of it.

    The problem is that faster is not always better. A GT3 is a better drive than a Turbo for instance. It is a slower car but it´s more fun.

    so, yes the 991 is faster than a 997. But I do believe Porsche is going the wrong way with this.

    IMHO, the 911 grew bigger in size and got more luxurious with the 991 just to please its new or changing market. And I just don´t like it. Sorry. I do prefer how the 997 makes me feel.

    Let´s take the panamera for instance. And You said it yourself. You have to order it in black, with black wheels and with black trim around the windows just to make it look acceptable.

    the same thing is happening with the 991.

    The 991 turbo should have an agressive look from the start. But now, with its elegant wheels, and its too stretch out body, and its silly sunroof, it looks inappropriate. 

     


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    Interesting comment in this month's Evo about Ferraris being designed on a track with an average speed of 79mph, with Porsches (and VWs) using the Nurburgring, with an average of 100mph.  The point being that they end up with long gear ratios, which aren't as much fun in the real world where you end up generally only getting to near the red line in 1st gear.

    Even with someone with the basic knowledge I have (compared to many RTers), that seemed to make a lot of sense.  Any views on this?

    --


    Porsche Carrera GTS (2012); Porsche Cayenne Diesel (2012)


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    Budster:

    Interesting comment in this month's Evo about Ferraris being designed on a track with an average speed of 79mph, with Porsches (and VWs) using the Nurburgring, with an average of 100mph.  The point being that they end up with long gear ratios, which aren't as much fun in the real world where you end up generally only getting to near the red line in 1st gear.

    Even with someone with the basic knowledge I have (compared to many RTers), that seemed to make a lot of sense.  Any views on this?

    Evo magazine article...

    Smiley SmileySmiley


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    RC:
    Rossi:
    amazon:

    Do not get me wrong. The 991 might still be a sportscar, but the car looks more and more like a GT.


    Agreed. And it more and more feels and drives like a GT. Smiley

    So how would a non-GT sports car drive and feel? Smiley Especially since you haven't even driven the new 991 Turbo S? Smiley I know that many don't like how the new 991 Carrera drives and feels but let me ask again: How should it drive and feel because it still is a lot faster than all the previous models? Should it be slower? Smiley Smiley

    The 911 is a wonderful sports car. If the 991 Turbo S is too easy to drive for you, I suggest getting the upcoming 991 GT2 RS. Pretty simple. The next GT2 RS is a 911 too, just in case you forgot.

    Stupid question: Why did you get a 997 Turbo S? Why not a GT3 RS 4.0 or GT3 RS? Just curious? Smiley

    I get the feeling that you are more upset at Porsche for putting a new 911 Turbo S on the market so soon, not because it is more of a GT. Smiley


    Do you realise, how stupid your above statement really is? Smiley

    First we were speaking about the 991 in general, so what the heck are you stating that I haven't even driven the new Turbo? I bet you have already driven it. Smiley

    And listen, everyone here can talk about how he thinks a car drives or what he prefers or not. Nobody has to agree or disagree, let's just talk about our personal preferences. And it's not all about speed or being fast. Finally I really don't need anybody to tell me which car I eventually should buy. Especially not from the elegant car expert. Smiley

    One last word: I couldn't care less about when Porsche is launching which new car, believe me in this. 


    --

    The secret of life is to admire without desiring.


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    kiss


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    Boxster Coupe GTS:
    Budster:

    Interesting comment in this month's Evo about Ferraris being designed on a track with an average speed of 79mph, with Porsches (and VWs) using the Nurburgring, with an average of 100mph.  The point being that they end up with long gear ratios, which aren't as much fun in the real world where you end up generally only getting to near the red line in 1st gear.

    Even with someone with the basic knowledge I have (compared to many RTers), that seemed to make a lot of sense.  Any views on this?

    Evo magazine article...

    Smiley SmileySmiley

    That article is very very verry interesting. Thanks a lot for posting. Smiley

     


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    Conrad2:

     

    While I have a 991 Turbo S on order and am excited about it, I do worry a bit with the direction Porsche is taking the 911.  I bought a 991 S as soon as they came out, trading in a 997 GTS.   Kept the car about 10 days before trading it back in for a 997 and losing a good deal of money in the process.  911's have always had a wonderful raw edge to them  even when driving down to the corner market.  My 991 just felt too much like a Merc SL which I have had a number of and never kept because they were so heavy and always felt like a small sedan not really a sports car.
     
    I think the longer wheel base is a factor, gives higher track lap times but clearly takes away some of the classic  and unique feel of the 911.  Take a hard sharp turn at 40 mph in a 997 and a lot of little things are going on, take the same turn in a 991 and absolutely nothing is going on - just a dead flat, no wiggle turn in.   Felt kind of sterile to me.
     
    With about 7 inches more shoulder room the 991 also loses some of the cozy feel of the 911.  Getting into my 911's has always felt like slipping on a very comfortable glove, everything was just perfect -I didn't get that feel in the 991.  I have a Panamera Turbo as my daily driver and love the car and interior, but can't say I really liked it in the 991.  
     
    Finally, I have always looked forward each day to walking up to the car, slipping into it and cranking the engine - just nothing like it in the car world IMO.  The final straw that led me to trade the 991 was when I suddenly realized I wasn't getting that feeling any more.  I tried to analyze why the feeling had gone away and concluded it was several things.  One being the car felt so much larger inside as mentioned above.  Second little thing being the lack of a real key - always enjoyed carefully inserting the key to crank the car.  Final reason was the way the engine started - seems instantaneous, almost like starting an electric motor.  Hearing the engine turn over a couple of times  and then roaring to life with a wonderful array of sounds was basically gone along with the magic of it all.  After thinking about it awhile I realized that they had to do it this way if they wanted the start stop function at stop lights to work - need instantaneous start with no cranking sound.  This was a terrible trade off IMO.  I can't imagine turning on such a stop/start function in my 991 and thank goodness we have the option to turn it off.
     
    Porsche is clearly trying to expand the size of the market segment for the 911 with the changes made in the 991 by taking it more in the direction of what most of us understand to be a GT car.  I am very hopeful that the Turbo version will bring back some of the magic for me.  I have lost count of the number of 911's I have owned over the years going back to the air cooled ones.  Loved each and every one until the 991.  I truly hate the thought of walking away from them so am taking a last shot with the Turbo.  By the way, would certainly own a GT3, if it weren't for the fixed spoiler sticking way up in the air - just to much boy racer for me, even though I have owned a blue Viper with a white strip running down the middle and sometimes ask myself if I am overreacting to the spoiler.
     
     

    Up at the beginning of  second  paragraph, I meant to say, of course, a longer wheel base gives faster lap times not "higher" ones.  Curious to know if anyone else shares any of the feelings I expressed regarding the 991.  I am an avid Porsche fan so not trying to take any cheap shots here, but really do have concerns about where they are taking things.


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    I agree and Harry Metcalfe, based on his article posted above, would agree too.  I've read the numerous articles on the 981 Cayman and the relative disappointment in its performance.  A well designed mid-engined platform should be dynamically superior to the 991, it is not and the 991 is, as many posted above, less and less sports car and more and more GT car.  

    Metcalfe is very much correct in his assessment, many German cars are moving away from interesting and stimulating tactile devices for driving to computer controlled machines of ruthless efficiency focused on speed and minimizing CO2 emissions. The driver has lost the physical connectiveness and experience, yet the video gamer benefits.  As reference, on the 991 GT3 thread I had posted about the driver being reduced to a mere passenger as an autonomous system optimizes lap times. Some scoffed.  Yet today the NHTSA is debating making all cars sold in the States after December 2013, equipped with automatic braking systems.  Again, this is another system nibbling away at the driving experience, leading to the anodyne properties of today's Porsches. 

     

     

     

     


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    The clients base has changed. People wants to be seen in these cars more than anything.

    They couldn't care less about how a car "feels". They brag about how expensive and/or exclusive their car is and about specs. They care more about the sound system, leather, 20"+ rims and panoramic sunroofs. Or about virtual Nurburgring laptimes.

    People are hypocrites. Even if they drive fast they like the idea that the car's electronic systems creates a safety net for them. They like knowing that they have 500 hp lurking inside. They have no intention of using all of them with the exception of some straight line acceleration bursts.

    That is why a car like the Nissan GT-R is the icon of a new generation. The Playstation generation.

    Porsche is a company. They want to sell cars and make money. And the only way to do that is to give the client what he wants. So they adapted their cars down to the automatic cruise control (on a 911!!!).

    So IMO you should not be worried where Porsche is taking their cars but where people are asking Porsche to take their cars.

    In the end the world with everything surrounding us, including cars, is a reflection of the people.

     

     


    --

    There is no try. Just do.


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    So what would you have instead if you had nearly $200k to spend? 


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    Conrad2:
    Curious to know if anyone else shares any of the feelings I expressed regarding the 991.  I am an avid Porsche fan so not trying to take any cheap shots here, but really do have concerns about where they are taking things.

    Couldn't agree more


    --

    Gen II Cayman S


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    Budster:

    Interesting comment in this month's Evo about Ferraris being designed on a track with an average speed of 79mph, with Porsches (and VWs) using the Nurburgring, with an average of 100mph.  The point being that they end up with long gear ratios, which aren't as much fun in the real world where you end up generally only getting to near the red line in 1st gear.

    Even with someone with the basic knowledge I have (compared to many RTers), that seemed to make a lot of sense.  Any views on this?

    --


    Porsche Carrera GTS (2012); Porsche Cayenne Diesel (2012)

    The high gearing on the manual GT models seems only appropriate for Autobahn driving, the 997GT2 (with slightly higher limiter through tuning)  hits 183kph/114mph in 3rd gear !!

    I like changing gear, wringing out to the red line is one of the best feelings in driving for me, thankfully the old Porsche  boxes and drive trains can be modified using parts from the racing programs.

    I have a 9:35 ring and pinion so even in the UK I get to red line in second and third and still be in stay out of jail territory Smiley 


    --



     

    3.9  GT2 2011 make over


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    Most people who own 911s nowadays also own at least one or two other modern cars. Therefore, all those amenities, features and technologies that modern cars have (that purists look down upon) are also required in the Porsche. For example, I cannot have ventilated seats, telephone facilities, park assist with camera etc etc on my Audi and not have them on my expensive 911.

    Besides, 911s in their majority (even some GT models) are not weekend toys used just for a short adrenaline fix. They are used as normal cars most of the year. Therefore, things like ride comfort, all weather ability, high speed handling count for a lot. You cannot be allowed to feel more comfortable doing 250 km/h in your SUV or your limousine than in your 911.

    The 991 is as composed and stable as any modern car should be. Even the 997.2 is behind. we must accept that the standards have changed since the nostalgic days of the air-cooled cars. We move on with the times and so do our cars.


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    amazon:

    Rc, you seem to always reduce everything to speed. As long as a car is faster, you are fine with it. You bought the panamera turbo S on that same idea... And now you want to get rid of it.

    I love the Panamera Turbo S, it just isn't me, I'm not a sedan type of guy and I realized it now. I had hoped for a 911 with four doors and a trunk but unfortunately the Panamera trunk is not really big enough for a family. The only complaint I have is the steering feel when driving straight, everything else is perfect for a sedan. Porsche did a terrific job.

    The problem is that faster is not always better. A GT3 is a better drive than a Turbo for instance. It is a slower car but it´s more fun.

    You are wrong. I have driven the 997 Turbo and the 997 GT3 and while the GT3 certainly has a certain appeal, the Turbo is the more challenging car for me. This is not the Cayenne S vs. Cayenne GTS story, the 997 Turbo compensates for the GT3 drive feel with brute boost force. This has always been the appeal of a Turbo.

    so, yes the 991 is faster than a 997. But I do believe Porsche is going the wrong way with this.

    I don't. They make the car more appealing to a broader audience. I have no problem with driving the same car a 70 year old is driving during his retirement or a wife is driving to the tennis court. Do you have a problem with that picture? Smiley Manly cars for manly men, only manual and with a chassis which makes your teeth fall out? Smiley

    IMHO, the 911 grew bigger in size and got more luxurious with the 991 just to please its new or changing market. And I just don´t like it. Sorry. I do prefer how the 997 makes me feel.

    Well, you should try a 993 then. Makes you feel even better. Smiley

    Let´s take the panamera for instance. And You said it yourself. You have to order it in black, with black wheels and with black trim around the windows just to make it look acceptable.

    The Panamera was always planned as a S-class and 7 series competitor, I just didn't realize it until I owned one. I badly wanted a 911 with four doors and a trunk but all I got was a sedan with four doors. Not enough.

    the same thing is happening with the 991.

    Nope. The Panamera is a different car for a different audience. This is why I am giving it back. I am a 911 guy.

    The 991 turbo should have an agressive look from the start. But now, with its elegant wheels, and its too stretch out body, and its silly sunroof, it looks inappropriate. 

    Aggressive look? Manly look? Smiley I am not 30 anymore, I can afford driving something less aggressive too without people thinking that I'm not a real guy. Smiley On the other hand, you'd be surprised what the best (female) friend of my wife said when I told her last week that I'm getting a 911 instead of the Panamera. My wife showed her the 911 Turbo booklet and the first thing she said was: "This car looks too aggressive...". Well...what now? Smiley

    You need to understand that I live in Germany, a country where you get a middle finger if you accelerate too much. A country where neighbors sue you because you closed the door too loud at night. The new 991 Turbo S is certainly not looking elegant with that big ass Smiley but I agree, it looks more refined, more styled from one piece as we say here. Which kind of reminds me of the latest Apple Macbook Pro and I think Porsche is walking the right path here.

    The new 991 grew on me a lot, I actually like the regular Carrera S body more than the Carrera 4 or Turbo body but since Porsche doesn't give me an option... Smiley

    This is the whole story all over again: When the 996 showed up, 993 owners were saying the same you say now. When the 997 showed up, there were even 996 owners (not many though) who made complaints about the cleaner look. 993 owners were actually even more upset because the 997 was actually a 911 which made their 993 look old (the 996 not so much). Then, the 991 showed up and the whole story starts again.

    I get it: You are happy with your 997. So what? I owned a 997 Turbo for five years and I wanted something new. The 997 Carrera GTS Cab was a nice try but I realized fast that I miss the power of the Turbo (and the more comfortable back seats).

    I had the choice to order the 991 GT3 and the 991 Turbo S, hell...even the upcoming 991 GT2 RS. I decided to go for the 991 Turbo S because it makes sense for me. No, I won't regret the decision because this is no Panamera. The Panamera was an experiment, I wanted to try something new and I actually knew that I should take a Cayenne Turbo Powerkit instead as a family car. Well...wives can be persuasive and my wife really suggested I try something new. With two doors and a bigger trunk, the Panamera could have been a nice alternative to a 911. I guess however that Porsche knew exactly what they were doing when they introduced the Panamera. This is no alternative to the 911, not even to the Cayenne. Actually, I could imagine owning all three cars, the 911, the Cayenne and the Panamera.

    Bottom line is: For me, the 991 Turbo S is the perfect choice. I am happy that Porsche presented the Turbo S from the start, so I wouldn't regret getting a regular Turbo two years later. I may switch to the 991 GT2 RS in three years if I realize that I do not need the back seats and/or the AWD (winter time) but til then, I will enjoy a very nice ride. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (ordered), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    Rossi:
     

    Do you realise, how stupid your above statement really is? Smiley

    Here we go again...

    First we were speaking about the 991 in general, so what the heck are you stating that I haven't even driven the new Turbo? I bet you have already driven it. Smiley

    Well...you still don't have a clue, don't you? (after over 10 years, what a shame). Little hint: When I say I haven't driven one, I haven't. Smiley

    And listen, everyone here can talk about how he thinks a car drives or what he prefers or not. Nobody has to agree or disagree, let's just talk about our personal preferences. And it's not all about speed or being fast. Finally I really don't need anybody to tell me which car I eventually should buy. Especially not from the elegant car expert. Smiley

    German humor? Smiley You already picked up some swiss humor (vision sharpness), I am not surprised...you live near the Swiss border. Smiley This discussion is about the 991 Turbo and Turbo S (maybe you forgot to look at the thread title). So if you claim the 991 is more of a GT, the 991 Turbo/Turbo S is too. You cannot separate both.

    One last word: I couldn't care less about when Porsche is launching which new car, believe me in this. 

    Oh really? I remember the Porsche law department thinking slightly different about that. Smiley  Smiley

     


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (ordered), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    hussainh1:

    So what would you have instead if you had nearly $200k to spend? 

    Are you asking me or somebody else?


    --

    There is no try. Just do.


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    reginos:

    Most people who own 911s nowadays also own at least one or two other modern cars. Therefore, all those amenities, features and technologies that modern cars have (that purists look down upon) are also required in the Porsche. For example, I cannot have ventilated seats, telephone facilities, park assist with camera etc etc on my Audi and not have them on my expensive 911.

    Besides, 911s in their majority (even some GT models) are not weekend toys used just for a short adrenaline fix. They are used as normal cars most of the year. Therefore, things like ride comfort, all weather ability, high speed handling count for a lot. You cannot be allowed to feel more comfortable doing 250 km/h in your SUV or your limousine than in your 911.

    The 991 is as composed and stable as any modern car should be. Even the 997.2 is behind. we must accept that the standards have changed since the nostalgic days of the air-cooled cars. We move on with the times and so do our cars.

    Very well said, very good analysis. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    Pentium:

    The clients base has changed. People wants to be seen in these cars more than anything.

    Hmm...people haven't changed. Technology has changed. People are still the same.

    They couldn't care less about how a car "feels". They brag about how expensive and/or exclusive their car is and about specs. They care more about the sound system, leather, 20"+ rims and panoramic sunroofs. Or about virtual Nurburgring laptimes.

    Most Porsche 911 Turbo/Turbo S owners I know don't have much of a clue about lap times, they are usually in their 50s or 60s, are divorced, have a younger girlfriend or wife and they love to drive fast...at least on the Autobahn. What is wrong with that? I outran some of them during a fun run in my Carrera GTS on some curvy country roads but does this make them less worthy of a Porsche than me? I was surprised how much they actually loved driving their cars, so I think you are a little bit wrong here, even if you have a point.

    People are hypocrites. Even if they drive fast they like the idea that the car's electronic systems creates a safety net for them. They like knowing that they have 500 hp lurking inside. They have no intention of using all of them with the exception of some straight line acceleration bursts.

    True for very young owners and probably older owners. Not so sure about people like me who usually drive their cars with Sport Plus active. Why not turning ESP off completely? Well...on public streets, you don't have a controlled environment, there can be oil on the street after a curve or other surprises. Trust me, even driving in Sport Plus is a challenge most of the time, especially when it is wet outside. Smiley It is fun though...

    That is why a car like the Nissan GT-R is the icon of a new generation. The Playstation generation.

    The Playstation generation loves the GT-R but they cannot afford it. Smiley

    Porsche is a company. They want to sell cars and make money. And the only way to do that is to give the client what he wants. So they adapted their cars down to the automatic cruise control (on a 911!!!).

    In Germany, the 911 is one of the most used business cars, always has. I would love to be able to use a 911 as a daily driver but I can't because of my little business and my customers. Most 911 owners I know actually use their car on a daily basis. Why would they not want to have some comfort or other goodies they know from other cars (maybe even some they own)? You can drive a 911 on a daily basis, even in winter or you can take it to the occasional track fun. What is wrong with that picture? Smiley

    So IMO you should not be worried where Porsche is taking their cars but where people are asking Porsche to take their cars.

    Indeed. There is only a hardcore base who wants an almost undriveable car, just to make a point in life. I have some news for you, 997 lovers: Most 993 or 964 drivers will call you pussies. Smiley Smiley

    In the end the world with everything surrounding us, including cars, is a reflection of the people.

    Yes, of course. Unfortunately you are confusing people with technology. People don't change, technology advances and this is why we adapt. The change is not a reflection of the people but of the progressing technology around us. 

    I love progress and technology, always have. Never liked old technology...or old cars for that matter, so maybe I am a little bit biased here. 

    Speaking of technology: You should drive the MP4-12C. The ESP can't be turned off but it is so well programmed that you can actually keep your foot on the throttle and the ESP does the rest for you. Well...almost. Still...people enjoy driving this car.

    It really depends on what you want from a car: I enjoy being fast in a car, no matter how I achieve that. Others prefer the drive feel...and are slow. Smiley

    Try to view this from a point of a Caterham or Lotus driver: They would probably think that GT3 drivers are pussies. Smiley

    There is always someone who thinks he prefers a "raw" driving experience but let me ask you this: Where does it start and where does it end? What does "raw" mean? I remember that when I switched from a BMW M3 E36 to a 993 Targa, I thought I was driving an oldtimer, the 993 was so bad... Smiley I picked up the Porsche virus but not necessarily because the 993 felt refined. Smiley

    In my opinion, the steering feel is crucial for driving pleasure, everything else, I leave to personal preference. This is why I always recommend to people not to get the Power Steering Plus on the 991 because it takes away some of the direct feel, especially at lower speeds and when driving straight. I didn't order it for my Turbo S. Also, if people really want the sportiest drive feel possible, they should order the sportiest options available, incl. PCCB (which lowers the weight directly at the wheels, remember?) but I'm afraid most buyers don't even order the PASM with PDCC and some even "forget" the Sport Chrono package. Yes, PDCC can feel a bit artificial at some point but you can be very fast with it. Unless of course you want to feel fast but be slow. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)


     
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