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    Re: GT1 engine GONE

    Quote:
    xandi911 said:
    so.. why it is so bad??

    WHAT THE DISVANTAGES OF THE NEW BLOCK!?

    MAYBE THE NEW BLOCK WILL BE BETTER!



    It's impossible that it will be better.

    Yamnar is a Japanese marine diesel engine mfgr. Their engines are used in working boats and pleasure craft.

    History and tradition mean that working boats got Yanmars because it was incredibly reliable and strong.

    That all changed when more and more pleasure boat mfgrs started buying them to a large extent and guess what happened?

    Since the engine was not needed for 100K hours anymore as is typical in a working boat Yanmar cheapened their design and mfgr'ing costs and _increased_ their prices.

    Pleasure boat use was less strenuous for the engine (maybe 5K hours) and more profitable. Like Porsche everything for serious pleasure boats is averaged off and paid for to the nearest us$100 (LOL).

    Re: GT1 engine GONE

    Quote:
    devo said:
    I agree that you typically get what you pay for, but, at the present time we are speculating as to the long term reliability of the new block/engine. Hopefully, the new engine will be just as reliable, and one to carry on with radical performance while keeping somewhat green.



    A sensible POV. We are living a "sky is falling" mentality these days and that is reflected in this thread.
    The GT1 is an aged static design. Other designs exist that can be even better. The GT1 engine is far from bullet-proof - it has RMS failures too. The new engine's integrated dry sump design is quite innovative and makes sense too. A conventional dry sump with all its external components, pipes and many pumps fails too.

    Let's not repeat what the Director of the US Patent Office said over 100 years ago... Au contraire, I believe the future will bring better designs than the ones of the past.

    Re: GT1 engine GONE

    Quote:
    ADias said:

    A sensible POV. We are living a "sky is falling" mentality these days and that is reflected in this thread.
    The GT1 is an aged static design. Other designs exist that can be even better. The GT1 engine is far from bullet-proof - it has RMS failures too. The new engine's integrated dry sump design is quite innovative and makes sense too. A conventional dry sump with all its external components, pipes and many pumps fails too.



    True, the GT1 may have some failures (as could any engine). I think the concern is over moving from a race-bred, proven engine to a relatively unknown entity with the new engine, one that has not stood the test of time and mods.

    It is also easy to believe that Porsche is moving to a more cost-effective solution, rather than solely trying to improve the engine, thereby possibly introducing lower quality.

    In any case, time will tell.

    I'm still glad I have the GT1, as Ruf mods may be in my future some day!!

    Re: GT1 engine GONE

    porsche has a history of going from great to doggy...think early 70's 911s and rs vs. 75,76,77 911's...followed by pull your head out of your butt with sc and turbos....im sticking with my tt as the last of breed, or at least for me it is.

    Re: GT1 engine GONE

    When they start using the integrated dry sump motors in their race cars I'll be a believer. Till then I'm keepin my GT1 forever!

    Re: GT1 engine GONE

    Quote:
    TT Gasman said:
    When they start using the integrated dry sump motors in their race cars I'll be a believer. Till then I'm keepin my GT1 forever!



    THAT about sums it up for me!!!

    Re: GT1 engine GONE

    Quote:
    hesperus said:
    Quote:
    TT Gasman said:
    When they start using the integrated dry sump motors in their race cars I'll be a believer. Till then I'm keepin my GT1 forever!



    THAT about sums it up for me!!!




    Ditto. For now the only engine performance mods. I've done is the exhaust & plenum. They're the best (IMO) mods you can do & still keep your warranty (in my area anyway) but I plan to do further mods. down the road after a couple/few years when the newness of the car wears, I start to get a little bit bored & when the warranty is closer to expiring. ECU, IC's, Throttle Body, Turbo's, etc. something like the AWE 700S kit. I dont think anyone will likey know if the new Turbo Motor can take that kind of power reliably for many years & who wants to be one of the first ones to find out???????? It's nice to know I have the GT1. It could be one of those deals where in a few years people look back & wish they had bought & kept one of the first gen 997 Turbo's, reflecting on what a great motor it was. Who knows.

    Re: GT1 engine GONE

    Quote:
    STRADALE said:
    I dont think anyone will likey know if the new Turbo Motor can take that kind of power reliably for many years & who wants to be one of the first ones to find out????????



    Yup. Gonna be interesting. (imagine popcorn-eating emoticon here)

    Just a thought...

    Maybe there will still be a GT1 engine.

    Remember the reports saying the power of the Turbo and GT3/2 was too much for PDK? Maybe if you want a Turbo/GT with PDK, you have to get one with the non-GT1 engine. If you want a Turbo/GT in manual or tip (if they still will do tip), you will get the GT1 engine???

    I hope so, because I still hope to get a TT, but want the GT1 engine..

    Re: Just a thought...

    I'd say since Turbo falls under GT category, it'll be offered with 3.8L(9A1) turbo charged and they leave GT1 for GT2 and GT3 / RS.

    If you recall they mentioned (Porsche.com) that they have a new oil pump system that is not dry-sump but something new also in the video clip that showed the whole engine was turning and twisting like crazy with no dry-sump pump.

    Re: Just a thought...

    Quote:
    Ron (Houston) said:
    the video clip that showed the whole engine was turning and twisting like crazy with no dry-sump pump.



    Yeah..., I think I saw that somewhere; very strange - almost funny. Anybody know a link?


    Re: Just a thought...

    This is the best thing that could have happened to the resale value of 07-08TT cars. Thanks Porsche!

    Re: Just a thought...

    Quote:
    TT Surgeon said:
    This is the best thing that could have happened to the resale value of 07-08TT cars. Thanks Porsche!



    Funny too because I feel like I (we) have the pinnacle of P-car Turbo expression in my garage now. It's gonna stay a "new" car too because it's probably good enough to neutralize the "gotta-have-it" urges of the FL when it shows up.

    FL TT will likely be written in as a step backwards in Porsche Mythology?

    Strange feelings, huh?




    Re: Just a thought...

    Quote:
    MMD said:
    Quote:
    Ron (Houston) said:
    the video clip that showed the whole engine was turning and twisting like crazy with no dry-sump pump.



    Yeah..., I think I saw that somewhere; very strange - almost funny. Anybody know a link?





    Here you go. And grab your popcorn:

    http://www.autoblog.com/2008/06/27/video-porsche-engine-runs-the-ring-virtually/

    Re: Just a thought...

    I'd love to re-visit this thread in a year when all the details of the new engine will be known, and educated comparisons can be made.

    Re: Just a thought...

    Quote:
    Ron (Houston) said:
    If you recall they mentioned (Porsche.com) that they have a new oil pump system that is not dry-sump but something new also in the video clip that showed the whole engine was turning and twisting like crazy with no dry-sump pump.



    Interesting video (and very cool test rig), but I'm not sure it shows anything that even a current M96/03 couldn't handle. From the short clip, it looks like the engine is tilted about 45 degrees max from flat, which would correspond to about a 1G turn. You can get to this level pretty easily with DOT track tires.

    I'm pretty sure quite a few 996 and 997 cars have done laps on the 'ring without immediately blowing up. I'm glad the new engine can at least do it too

    BTW, I agree with TT Gasman who said that he'll agree it is a better engine if/when Porsche takes it racing (and shows it can endure and win!). They haven't done that yet with the wet sump engines...

    Re: Just a thought...

    Another thought came to me after thinking about my laps on the 'ring... That rig cannot really simulate all aspects of a lap.

    It can simulate all G forces acting on the car in the front (braking), back (accel), left and right (turns). I think that's what we're seeing with the pitching forward and back -- and you can hear the downshifts on the forward pitching! -- and the left/right tilting.

    But it cannot simulate down (like on the banked casousel) or up (like exitting the carousel!). Now, I haven't studied this in depth, but most oil starvation issues in wet sumps that I've heard of were caused by extended high speed inclined turns, where the oil ends up well away from the pick up points for the oil pumps.

    The gt1-based engine doesn't have this problem because they have the oil tank and lots of scavenging oil pumps ensuring a long lasting steady supply.


    Re: Just a thought...

    Quote:
    Turbo Al said:
    Quote:
    MMD said:
    Quote:
    Ron (Houston) said:
    the video clip that showed the whole engine was turning and twisting like crazy with no dry-sump pump.



    Yeah..., I think I saw that somewhere; very strange - almost funny. Anybody know a link?





    Here you go. And grab your popcorn:

    http://www.autoblog.com/2008/06/27/video-porsche-engine-runs-the-ring-virtually/



    this test does not reproduce "sustained" Gs which is the cause of oil starvation. This is Porsche marketing gimmick at its best for the "new and improved" design .

    Re: Just a thought...

    Quote:
    AAHTT said:
    Quote:
    Turbo Al said:
    Quote:
    MMD said:
    Quote:
    Ron (Houston) said:
    the video clip that showed the whole engine was turning and twisting like crazy with no dry-sump pump.



    Yeah..., I think I saw that somewhere; very strange - almost funny. Anybody know a link?





    Here you go. And grab your popcorn:

    http://www.autoblog.com/2008/06/27/video-porsche-engine-runs-the-ring-virtually/



    this test does not reproduce "sustained" Gs which is the cause of oil starvation. This is Porsche marketing gimmick at its best for the "new and improved" design .



    I'd like to see the Turbo with this "new-and-improved" engine be fitted with slicks and put on a high-speed oval or several hard laps on the 'Ring...

    Until Porsche actually uses this engine in races, it's just anoter way for them to make an extra 20.000 euros per car .

    Re: Just a thought...

    If you look at it in a different light, it would have been very derogatory for the engineering talents of Porsche if they were not able to improve on a 15+ year engine design and as a result they were forced to keep using it indefinitely.

    Other premium manufacturers like BMW and Audi improve and change their engines every year or so that very few take notice.

    But like many things Porsche this engine acquired mythical status! It is like the 993 Carrera that many admire and swear to it. I drove one the other day and it felt like a cart(not kart)compared to a Boxster S MkI.

    Put everything in the right perspective please!

    Re: Just a thought...

    Quote:
    Silver Bullet said:
    I'd love to re-visit this thread in a year when all the details of the new engine will be known, and educated comparisons can be made.



    Agreed... let's revisit this thread in another couple years. Now to make a reminder...

    Re: Just a thought...

    Quote:
    reginos said:
    If you look at it in a different light, it would have been very derogatory for the engineering talents of Porsche if they were not able to improve on a 15+ year engine design and as a result they were forced to keep using it indefinitely.


    But surely the point is that they have been improving the design every year for 15+ years, this engine has evolved and evolved - a 997tt engine is quite different from a 993tt engine in many subtle ways but the strong bits, the stuff proven time and again on the track stays the same - The new 997tt engine can be made to run 900NM reliably - it is a total beast !
    It is all about the $$$$$ as Crash posted 20K Euros extra profit per car.
    Quote:
    reginos said:
    But like many things Porsche this engine acquired mythical status! It is like the 993 Carrera that many admire and swear to it. I drove one the other day and it felt like a cart(not kart)compared to a Boxster S MkI.

    Put everything in the right perspective please!


    I hope it felt like a solid hand built cart which will last another 15 years

    Re: Just a thought...

    Quote:
    TB993tt said:
    Quote:
    reginos said:
    If you look at it in a different light, it would have been very derogatory for the engineering talents of Porsche if they were not able to improve on a 15+ year engine design and as a result they were forced to keep using it indefinitely.


    But surely the point is that they have been improving the design every year for 15+ years, this engine has evolved and evolved - a 997tt engine is quite different from a 993tt engine in many subtle ways but the strong bits, the stuff proven time and again on the track stays the same - The new 997tt engine can be made to run 900NM reliably - it is a total beast !
    It is all about the $$$$$ as Crash posted 20K Euros extra profit per car.
    Quote:
    reginos said:
    But like many things Porsche this engine acquired mythical status! It is like the 993 Carrera that many admire and swear to it. I drove one the other day and it felt like a cart(not kart)compared to a Boxster S MkI.

    Put everything in the right perspective please!


    I hope it felt like a solid hand built cart which will last another 15 years


    I know that most of you take a cynical view of Porsche AG that they do everything for money, because they have managed to make lots of surplus in the last 10-12 years. But even the best engineering achievements have a definite life, so we must give PAG the benefit of doubt and judge the new engine if and when it comes.

    The previous 997s with non dry-sumped engines were not specified with Cup tyres due to fears of oil starvation during cornering. The 997.2 engined cars are allowed with Cup tyres which indicates a greater confidence in the new engines even in the absence of dry-sump lubrication.

    As regards the 993, which I also like as a piece of Porsche history, I can accept that it is well built with nice proportions and an interior that evokes 60s and 70s nostalgia, but as piece of equipment it is antiquated, IMO.
    Actually I have kept my 986S from 2000,it has 97,000km and it looks like it will also last another 20 years, accidents excepted of course.

    Re: Just a thought...

    Quote:
    TT Surgeon said:
    This is the best thing that could have happened to the resale value of 07-08TT cars. Thanks Porsche!



    The 2009 would be included, right? Supposedly, Porsche is only giving the MY2009 a visual FL and interior treatment, PCM, Bluetooth, etc... The new engine follows in MY2010.

    Re: Just a thought...

    Quote:
    TT Surgeon said:
    This is the best thing that could have happened to the resale value of 07-08TT cars. Thanks Porsche!




    That would be nice but how many people % wise will even know the difference? 5? But I wouldnt mind it a second if it ended up being true, not that it matters, I doubt I'll sell this car anyway.

    Re: Just a thought...

    devo,

    The quote below is from "sparkhill," 6speedonline. If the info is true, ****ORDERING NOW**** for one of those slots between now and December 2008 gives you the best of both worlds: GT1 engine, plus Blue Tooth/Touch Screen Navi/Ipod capabilities.

    In other words, early MY 2009 may turn out to be the best Turbo ever.

    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    To the best of my knowledge:

    1. no face-lift in MY2009 for the Turbo
    2. the MY2009 3.6L engine/crankcase will be unchanged
    3. minor changes to MY2009 include updated PCM, Bluetooth, rumored PASM tweaks
    4. no known allocations for MY2009 past December, 2008
    5. MY2010 to be released in early 2009 to include new DFI 3.8L engine and face-lift
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    Quote:
    devo said:
    Quote:
    TT Surgeon said:
    This is the best thing that could have happened to the resale value of 07-08TT cars. Thanks Porsche!



    The 2009 would be included, right? Supposedly, Porsche is only giving the MY2009 a visual FL and interior treatment, PCM, Bluetooth, etc... The new engine follows in MY2010.


    Re: Just a thought...

    If this is true, the pre FL 997TT will be the most desired Turbo since the 993TT and the '94 3.6 Turbo.

    Re: Just a thought...

    I have good reason to believe the information below is correct, but Porsche has not released anything official on the 2009's yet. I have an August completion 2009 coming and I know the updated PCM is to be included. New options include XM radio, Bluetooth, voice-control PCM, 6-disc in-dash CD changer. A few items like door finishers in leather and PCM in leather are not orderable at this time.

    Quote:
    cannga said:
    devo,

    The quote below is from "sparkhill," 6speedonline. If the info is true, ****ORDERING NOW**** for one of those slots between now and December 2008 gives you the best of both worlds: GT1 engine, plus Blue Tooth/Touch Screen Navi/Ipod capabilities.

    In other words, early MY 2009 may turn out to be the best Turbo ever.

    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    To the best of my knowledge:

    1. no face-lift in MY2009 for the Turbo
    2. the MY2009 3.6L engine/crankcase will be unchanged
    3. minor changes to MY2009 include updated PCM, Bluetooth, rumored PASM tweaks
    4. no known allocations for MY2009 past December, 2008
    5. MY2010 to be released in early 2009 to include new DFI 3.8L engine and face-lift
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    Quote:
    devo said:
    Quote:
    TT Surgeon said:
    This is the best thing that could have happened to the resale value of 07-08TT cars. Thanks Porsche!



    The 2009 would be included, right? Supposedly, Porsche is only giving the MY2009 a visual FL and interior treatment, PCM, Bluetooth, etc... The new engine follows in MY2010.




    Re: Just a thought...

    I realize it is not directly comparable but Land Rover cut costs when Ford purchased it from BMW by dropping the 4.4 vanos BMW engine and putting in the Jaguar V8 - I still have the BMW engined RR (chipped) and think it is a much better unit than the cheaper Jag lump - the trade pricing does not reflect anything to do with this just the usual model year differentiation affecting used prices (bad example since used RRs are worth peanuts anyway)

    Re: Just a thought...

    Quote:
    AAHTT said:


    this test does not reproduce "sustained" Gs which is the cause of oil starvation. This is Porsche marketing gimmick at its best for the "new and improved" design .



    Thanks for the insight AAHTT. Makes the video more fun to watch.

     
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