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    Re: GT3 or Turbo?

    For those of you who track REGULARLY, I can understand the point of getting a 'track car' a la GT3/GT3RS. For those who never tracks and only drive in the city, what is the point of getting a track car when you don't even track?

    For road use only the GT3/GT3RS is just too stiff except for those marcho type, it's tuned for mirror smooth track surfaces.

    Re: GT3 or Turbo?

    WHAT? too stiff? gt3 is a great daily driver, not very single purpose, more an all around sports car traditionally defined sports being the key word. a TT is a luxo GT

    Re: GT3 or Turbo?

    The way I look at it as a current owner of both, the GT3 is optimal for the 4-6 track weekends I get per year, but what about the other 353-357 days? At this price point, I am realizing it is silly to buy a car oriented mainly to the 1-2% of hard core closed circuit driving I may experience in the year. I have a track car that weighs 500lbs less and has 95% of the hp and 130% of the torque of my GT3. It cost me $15k all-in and if I crunch it I won't lose any sleep.

    If you are lucky enough to be spending 10% or more of your driving on the track/canyon roads, you'd be far better off in a cup car or some other stripped and prepped track vehicle. On Rennlist I hear many such GT3/RS owners obsessing over alignments, sunroofs, racing pads, weak factory bolt-in cages, and euro GT3 shells - then balking at using track-only tires because they don't want to tow, don't want to buy another set of wheels, and the DOT-R's don't last as long. Hard core, but not really eh?

    Your posts regarding the TT continually resonate on weight. It is a relatively heavy sportscar - no secret, and you still bought one nonetheless. There are well documented procedures for weight loss on the 996TT's which hold true for the 997TT as well that can relieve some of the pork:

    Battery 15-35 lbs
    Seats 35-70 lbs depending on the seat type
    Non electric wing ~ 30 lbs
    Wheels and tires - 30-40lbs
    Remove rear seats and sub woofer ~ 12 lbs
    Floor mats and carpet sound deadening 30 lbs
    Bumper supports 20lbs front 20 lbs rear
    Exhaust 30 lbs
    bonnet/trunk plastic trim 5 lbs
    CD changer and DVD nav transport - 15 lbs

    The key is that under most driving situations with equal drivers - stoplight to stoplight or highway blasts, wet or dry, day or night, hot or cold, the "pig heavy" TT (especially with a $3k software tune) will still embarrass the GT3. Under those rare perfect sunny track/track-like situations, the GT3 may edge out a TT but even then it will be very close. I love my GT3, but I cannot lie - my TT makes it feel like a slug, and a $50k Cayman has perhaps even better tactile responsiveness.

    Re: GT3 or Turbo?

    Well done.

    ps: Don't forget the biggest one/un-sprung weight of getting PCCB'.s

    Hey, the 2+2 Turbo Cabriolet is lighter & faster in a straight line and around the track then a Gallardo Spider, a car that is never accused of being a GT..Sounds good enough for me.

    Re: GT3 or Turbo?

    Wow, that's a lot of weight that can be taken off. By my rough calculation it's under 100lbs over the GT3's weight, talking about a rocket car.

    If he is so concerned about weight in a sports car, he's looking at the wrong brand, a Lotus Exige S is more suited for him.

    Actually, if I were to find a hardcore sports car/track car, the Lotus will be my choice, that or the Ariel Atom, I would not even conider a Porsche.

    Re: GT3 or Turbo?

    Very nice and reasonable post, as always. I am surprised the GT3's lack of low end power is not brought up more often.

    This is probably the biggest reason for me not going that route. For a 110k plus car, that lack of power below is troublesome, despite of the great handling.

    Quote:
    eclou said:
    I've got both, 1k miles on the GT3 and 6k miles on the TT. The TT is tuned now (~550hp).

    +GT3:
    1)steering feel more precise
    2)less float on rear end - very, very stable
    3)clutch much heavier and more feel on take-up
    4)aesthetics better to my eye

    -GT3:
    1)much less power, needs to be over 5500rpm to get stirred
    2)less ground clearance
    3)stiffer suspension means more jarring ride on streets

    +TT:
    1)much easier to drive in traffic
    2)huge power advantage. Makes the GT3 feel really slow
    3)back seats for kids/small guests
    4)more sound insulation

    -TT:
    1)more floaty in corners
    2)weight penalty
    3)less viscerally engaging when stock

    Both great cars. I prefer the TT without question. The performance and usability envelope of the TT is much broader, as are the potential to upgrade to supercar levels. The GT3 is at its peak and cannot go any higher.


    Re: GT3 or Turbo?

    Quote:
    eclou said:
    The way I look at it as a current owner of both, the GT3 is optimal for the 4-6 track weekends I get per year, but what about the other 353-357 days? At this price point, I am realizing it is silly to buy a car oriented mainly to the 1-2% of hard core closed circuit driving I may experience in the year. I have a track car that weighs 500lbs less and has 95% of the hp and 130% of the torque of my GT3. It cost me $15k all-in and if I crunch it I won't lose any sleep.

    If you are lucky enough to be spending 10% or more of your driving on the track/canyon roads, you'd be far better off in a cup car or some other stripped and prepped track vehicle. On Rennlist I hear many such GT3/RS owners obsessing over alignments, sunroofs, racing pads, weak factory bolt-in cages, and euro GT3 shells - then balking at using track-only tires because they don't want to tow, don't want to buy another set of wheels, and the DOT-R's don't last as long. Hard core, but not really eh?

    Your posts regarding the TT continually resonate on weight. It is a relatively heavy sportscar - no secret, and you still bought one nonetheless. There are well documented procedures for weight loss on the 996TT's which hold true for the 997TT as well that can relieve some of the pork:

    Battery 15-35 lbs
    Seats 35-70 lbs depending on the seat type
    Non electric wing ~ 30 lbs
    Wheels and tires - 30-40lbs
    Remove rear seats and sub woofer ~ 12 lbs
    Floor mats and carpet sound deadening 30 lbs
    Bumper supports 20lbs front 20 lbs rear
    Exhaust 30 lbs
    bonnet/trunk plastic trim 5 lbs
    CD changer and DVD nav transport - 15 lbs

    The key is that under most driving situations with equal drivers - stoplight to stoplight or highway blasts, wet or dry, day or night, hot or cold, the "pig heavy" TT (especially with a $3k software tune) will still embarrass the GT3. Under those rare perfect sunny track/track-like situations, the GT3 may edge out a TT but even then it will be very close. I love my GT3, but I cannot lie - my TT makes it feel like a slug, and a $50k Cayman has perhaps even better tactile responsiveness.



    and tossability, repsonsiveness and light weight are just meaningless, because where you live there's no traffic and you pound your TT to redline 1000 times a day?

    HP, pure power is meaningless in the modern world. as for spending big $ to lighten a car Porsche should have lightened for me, no thanks.

    and living in the canyons, and driving them to and from daily, i vastly prefer a strad, then a 3, before a TT whose heaviness is evident in every downhill or off camber braking moment..

    to each his own

    Re: GT3 or Turbo?

    I think Eclou is right on the money, in the 5-6 tack days I do a yr the TT is king. I've driven modded up 996's on the track as well as a 996GT3, their power is a letdown compared to the TT. Forget the elise,can't even stay in the same zipcode as a TT on the track.
    I love the guys on rennlist with the gt3Rs cars going on and on about their track setups(for the green group).

    Re: GT3 or Turbo?

    Watt, one thing I can tell you...I too felt that the turbo was a bit of a dog when I first got it but now with over 3000 miles on it I feel a significant difference (mine is bone stock) in the cars power. You sold your TT with 900 miles on it and my point is the car gets better after you put some miles on it. Eclou your posts are terrific especially since you own both cars. For me I am counting on mods to make the turbo more to my liking but that is a big plus that the turbo comes with compared to the GT3. Of course i own a turbo and naturally I'm a bit biased but those owning both cars can really give us a better perspective on the comparison. Unfortunately GT3's are not readily available to test drive and the same could be said for turbos to some extent.

    Re: GT3 or Turbo?

    Quote:
    watt said:
    and tossability, repsonsiveness and light weight are just meaningless, because where you live there's no traffic and you pound your TT to redline 1000 times a day?

    HP, pure power is meaningless in the modern world. as for spending big $ to lighten a car Porsche should have lightened for me, no thanks.

    and living in the canyons, and driving them to and from daily, i vastly prefer a strad, then a 3, before a TT whose heaviness is evident in every downhill or off camber braking moment..

    to each his own



    No car is perfect out of the box. Some are more perfect than others for a person's intended usage. If I lived near the canyon roads in the Bay Area, or Texas Hill Country I would probably be able to enjoy the GT3 more. If I had a Stradale I would probably just enjoy staring at it for hours on end!

    I would agree that the GT3 has attributes that the TT may never have, but many simple things can be done to come close - alignment, MPSC tires - even before starting on any weight loss. There is simply more stuff in the TT to remove if you want a diet - the 4wd system only is a total of 50 lbs.

    If you watch the cars on the production line it is hard to ignore the fact that these are built on an identical platform (well, the TT has the wider body which everyone claims is just phenomenal advantage for the RS variant over the GT3). I am really puzzled when people try to claim that any 997 variant is so different dynamically than the other. They are more similar to each other than any other car line.

    The one of the big advantages to me of the TT is that I don't ever have to take it anywhere close to redline to enjoy the power, and it is hard to ignore that even last year 400 hp was no longer the bar for the top sportscars. If pure power was not important to this audience, we'd all be having this discussion on the Cayman or Elise board wouldn't we?

    Cheers

    "pure power is meaningless in the modern world"

    Watt - if that's a political statement, I understand. If that's a statement about modern cars, what century are you living in? Happen to notice the horsepower wars going on - seems like the market doesn't see pure power as a fault. BTW, handling finesse is wonderful and I'm sure you and Nick can discuss the F-car steering feel etc all day, but the reality is for those of us who use our cars everyday for every purpose (yes including commuting) the near instantaneous punch and low end grunt of the turbo is far more valuable as a driving attribute than "handling finesse". And let's get real - it isn't like the turbo is a '74 Buick with resepct to steering feel - it is still very, very good in that category

    Chipper - GT3 has a stiff clutch and you need to wring it out to derive it's full potential - if you don't like living life above 6000RPM, the turbo is the choice.I will hazard a guess and suggest that your wife will much prefer the less frenetic environment of the turbo.

    Re: GT3 or Turbo?

    >>HP, pure power is meaningless in the modern world.

    Really?! Which other guru says this? Strongly agree to disagree.

    >>to lighten a car Porsche should have lightened for me

    Porsche does do it for you. It's called the GT2. In buying the TT and selling it after 900 miles, clearly you bought the wrong car for YOUR intended use and YOUR personal preferences. Why blame the car if you made the erroneous choice?

    Quote:
    watt said:

    HP, pure power is meaningless in the modern world. as for spending big $ to lighten a car Porsche should have lightened for me, no thanks.

    and living in the canyons, and driving them to and from daily, i vastly prefer a strad, then a 3, before a TT whose heaviness is evident in every downhill or off camber braking moment..

    to each his own


    Re: GT3 or Turbo?

    Quote:
    watt said:

    and tossability, repsonsiveness and light weight are just meaningless, because where you live there's no traffic and you pound your TT to redline 1000 times a day?

    HP, pure power is meaningless in the modern world. as for spending big $ to lighten a car Porsche should have lightened for me, no thanks.

    and living in the canyons, and driving them to and from daily, i vastly prefer a strad, then a 3, before a TT whose heaviness is evident in every downhill or off camber braking moment..

    to each his own



    If those are really what you required in a car, then my suggestion for a Lotus Exige S is perfect for you. The Ferrari is like a pig compared with the lightness of the Lotus. On handling, tossability and repsonsiveness the little Lotus will run rings around the Ferrari. The GT3 will come close to the Lotus but it's also a pig compared with the Lotus.

    Since you said hp is meaningless nowadays, 500 in the Ferrari and 400 in the Porsche is way too much, 220 in the Lotus is just perfect.

    Now if you STILL prefer the Ferrari or the GT3 over the Lotus, the only reason I can think of is that you PREFER/LIKE the snobbiness of the Ferrari/Porsche over the better handling and lighter Lotus.

    Re: GT3 or Turbo?

    wait for the GT3 with PDK... this will be the perfect porsche..

    Re: GT3 or Turbo?

    I like the Lotus Exige S a lot for short twisty tracks, but prefer a GT3 to a Lotus for its faster Ring time and high speed acceleration. Horsepower isn't everything but it sure helps. The Lotus is great car but a bit underpowered for my taste.

    Re: GT3 or Turbo?

    Quote:
    cannga said:
    Porsche does do it for you. It's called the GT2. In buying the TT and selling it after 900 miles, clearly you bought the wrong car for YOUR intended use and YOUR personal preferences. Why blame the car if you made the erroneous choice?




    If rennteam's forum search function still worked you could find Watt's old posts indicating that he has already owned a couple of (996) GT2s.

    Watt always seems to sell his cars at around 900 mls or therabouts. Watt does not make erroneous choices. Watt just makes frequent and wildly varying choices.

    Is that right, Watt?

    Re: I was just offered a new GT3

    Check out this little review, just for fun:

    http://www.mpt.org/motorweek/video/roadtests.shtml

    GT3 is third one down. Choose video or written.

    Just more info for ya.

    Re: I was just offered a new GT3

    Gents
    I have a 997 TT with PCCB and all the fruit. I am selling it and getting a used GT3 with steel (heaven forbid but no PCCB GT3 sold here new in NZ) as the TT is just a bit dull. Sure the power is great but it is almost too much in 2nd and the power delivery does not happen in a pleasurable way.

    Re: I was just offered a new GT3

    Good luck, however bear in mind that at 3,000 or 4,000rpm the GT3 will feel like a bicycle compared to a motorbike. Consider that that can never be rectified for the GT3. However you can get a lot of the advantages (and feel) of the gt3 on a turbo with a few relatively simple mods that a lot of members of this board have successfully tried, with the added benefit of course of an uncomparable power advantage.

    Re: I was just offered a new GT3

    Turbo for street GT3 for track.

    That being said I want a GT3 for street :P But have a Turbo for practicality.

    Cant go wrong.

     
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