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    Re: Oh NO!! VAT rising from 16% to 19% in Germany

    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Poverty was very virtually nonexistent where I live up until a few years ago but has risen up to almost 10% recently, mostly as a result of the textile industry collapse due to much cheaper chinese imports.



    Poverty IS non-existent where I live.

    Re: Oh NO!! VAT rising from 16% to 19% in Germany

    In my opinion RC's analysis of the actual political situation is absolutely spot-on ! To me the so-called Grand Coalition just is a "Coalition of the Unwilling"
    Why unwilling: instead of implementing structural changes into the German system allowing for a recovery (de-bureaucratization, lean government, simplified transparent tax system, liberalisation of employment market - to mention only the most important issues) they are following the old path of tax increases. I am really pissed off with the German political class, which still is believing in the instruments of the seventies.....
    As an example for the ignorance of German polticians I might quote the Prime Minister (Governour) of the German state Hessia, who stated it was a clever idea to implement the VAT increase in January 2007 only, because this would allow for a sales boom in 2006 !

    I am happy though that my new 987 S is on order for March 06 not exposed to the tax increase coming into effect January 2007 only

    I just returned from a business trip from Japan (I had been suffering from the Rennteam Offline Syndrome for a week ) and it was quite interesting to learn about how the Japanese are just beginning to overcome their problems, which partly have been originated by a similar social mentality than in Germany.

    Re: Oh NO!! VAT rising from 16% to 19% in Germany

    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Ronald Reagan was until recently the worst president in US history (in my opinion).



    Curious. Why?

    Re: Oh NO!! VAT rising from 16% to 19% in Germany

    Quote:
    SoCal Alan said:
    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Poverty was very virtually nonexistent where I live up until a few years ago but has risen up to almost 10% recently, mostly as a result of the textile industry collapse due to much cheaper chinese imports.



    Poverty IS non-existent where I live.



    I'm talking country-wide. It is also nonexistant where I live.

    Re: Oh NO!! VAT rising from 16% to 19% in Germany

    Quote:
    SoCal Alan said:
    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Ronald Reagan was until recently the worst president in US history (in my opinion).



    Curious. Why?



    If I discount his foreign policy (Iran-Contra anyone?) and abusing the Teheran hostage crisis in order to win the 1980 election there's still enough ammunition left. He had no clue how the government worked, was superstitious (he actually listened to his wife's astrologer when appointing A. Kennedy for the Supreme Court, according to his Chief of Staff Don Regan). He was also a Christian Lunatic (declaring we'd see Armageddon, declaring 1983 the Year of the Bible, being hardline anti-abortion). He also pardoned many of his supporters who should be thrown in jail, but weren't. Please take note that I'm otherwise very pro-American and am more of a centralist than either a liberal or a conservative, but these (Reagan + the Bushes) are the people who were/are destroying the reputation of an otherwise friendly nation of Americans. You probably disagree with me, so feel free to rebuke my comments.

    Re: Oh NO!! VAT rising from 16% to 19% in Germany

    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Quote:
    SoCal Alan said:
    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Ronald Reagan was until recently the worst president in US history (in my opinion).



    Curious. Why?



    If I discount his foreign policy (Iran-Contra anyone?) and abusing the Teheran hostage crisis in order to win the 1980 election there's still enough ammunition left. He had no clue how the government worked, was superstitious (he actually listened to his wife's astrologer when appointing A. Kennedy for the Supreme Court, according to his Chief of Staff Don Regan). He was also a Christian Lunatic (declaring we'd see Armageddon, declaring 1983 the Year of the Bible, being hardline anti-abortion). He also pardoned many of his supporters who should be thrown in jail, but weren't. Please take note that I'm otherwise very pro-American and am more of a centralist than either a liberal or a conservative, but these (Reagan + the Bushes) are the people who were/are destroying the reputation of an otherwise friendly nation of Americans. You probably disagree with me, so feel free to rebuke my comments.



    I appreciate your comments. I was 15 when Reagan was elected.

    1) abusing the Teheran hostage crisis in order to win the 1980 election

    How so? From what I remember, Carter didn't do a damn thing until he lost the election, except for a failed rescue attempt.

    2) Iran/Contra

    I really don't a position with that. Was that important to Europe? I don't think that was really all that important to the American people.

    3) He had no clue how the government worked

    Some may say that is a positive. We have too many career politicians already. Personally, I don't care if whoever is elected has experience in politics or not. As long as their beliefs coincide with mine.

    4) was superstitious (he actually listened to his wife's astrologer when appointing A. Kennedy for the Supreme Court, according to his Chief of Staff Don Regan).

    Ok, Anthony Kennedy turned out to be a disaster as far as I'm concerned. Not a real conservative Supreme Court Justice.

    5) He was also a Christian Lunatic (declaring we'd see Armageddon, declaring 1983 the Year of the Bible, being hardline anti-abortion).

    I'm not a religious person, and if he said those things, that's not a good thing. But I am anti-abortion (or pro-life), so I agree with his opinion on that. Not in all cases, I'm not that extreme. But alot of Americans are split on this issue so this is not a reason why Reagan would be considered a bad president.

    6) He also pardoned many of his supporters who should be thrown in jail, but weren't.

    Tell me what US President hasn't used their power of giving pardons? The most recent example being President Clinton in the last year of his presidency. This doesn't make Reagan a bad president.

    Re: Oh NO!! VAT rising from 16% to 19% in Germany

    Quote:
    SoCal Alan said:
    Quote:
    Robert2005 said:
    Quote:
    SoCal Alan said:
    Quote:
    Crash said:
    LOL at the last sentence . Like I said the economics need to change, but not in a way to mirror the US model. There HAS to be a way to keep a country economically stable and prosperous, while keeping poverty to a minimum (something the US failed to achieve). Regarding Germany's history, that is quite unfortunate, although 60 years ago they came extremely close. Luckily, they screwed themselves the last time...



    You will always have the poor, middle, and upper class. I don't quite understand your statement regarding "keeping povery to a minimum (something the US failed to achieve)". That's a pretty open-ended statement. What's your poverty acceptibility level? 15%? 10%? If you look at our history, we have had our poverty level between 10-15% for the last 40 years. And we continue to throw a higher percentage of our GDP into the welfare system. Shouldn't it have gone down by now?



    There is a bigger gap between rich and poor in the US than in the EU. (many reasons) If more low / middle class people are able to spend (more) money, the better your economy will sustain.



    What's the relevance of the first statement to the second?


    Sorry SoCal Alan and RC for dwelling on this.

    I realize that this is really off-topic, except that it goes to whether or not various governments are just on a revenue hunt, that is, trying to justify major tax and spending increases by fooling the public, and incidentally, raising the price of the car that we like to , or aspire to, drive, various Porsche's.

    The whole philospophy of taxing (I call it lootiing) those who have the income to give to those who won't work, or who are just jealous of those with a greater income, is nothing more than, in the words (paraphrased) of the 19th century French economist, Frederic Bastiat, "plunder." Politicians have only so many years to loot the public. That's why they make they promises they make, so that they can loot as much as they can as fast as they can.

    Jim

    Re: Oh NO!! VAT rising from 16% to 19% in Germany

    Quote:
    SoCal Alan said:
    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Quote:
    SoCal Alan said:
    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Ronald Reagan was until recently the worst president in US history (in my opinion).



    Curious. Why?



    If I discount his foreign policy (Iran-Contra anyone?) and abusing the Teheran hostage crisis in order to win the 1980 election there's still enough ammunition left. He had no clue how the government worked, was superstitious (he actually listened to his wife's astrologer when appointing A. Kennedy for the Supreme Court, according to his Chief of Staff Don Regan). He was also a Christian Lunatic (declaring we'd see Armageddon, declaring 1983 the Year of the Bible, being hardline anti-abortion). He also pardoned many of his supporters who should be thrown in jail, but weren't. Please take note that I'm otherwise very pro-American and am more of a centralist than either a liberal or a conservative, but these (Reagan + the Bushes) are the people who were/are destroying the reputation of an otherwise friendly nation of Americans. You probably disagree with me, so feel free to rebuke my comments.



    I appreciate your comments. I was 15 when Reagan was elected.

    1) abusing the Teheran hostage crisis in order to win the 1980 election

    How so? From what I remember, Carter didn't do a damn thing until he lost the election, except for a failed rescue attempt.

    2) Iran/Contra

    I really don't a position with that. Was that important to Europe? I don't think that was really all that important to the American people.

    3) He had no clue how the government worked

    Some may say that is a positive. We have too many career politicians already. Personally, I don't care if whoever is elected has experience in politics or not. As long as their beliefs coincide with mine.

    4) was superstitious (he actually listened to his wife's astrologer when appointing A. Kennedy for the Supreme Court, according to his Chief of Staff Don Regan).

    Ok, Anthony Kennedy turned out to be a disaster as far as I'm concerned. Not a real conservative Supreme Court Justice.

    5) He was also a Christian Lunatic (declaring we'd see Armageddon, declaring 1983 the Year of the Bible, being hardline anti-abortion).

    I'm not a religious person, and if he said those things, that's not a good thing. But I am anti-abortion (or pro-life), so I agree with his opinion on that. Not in all cases, I'm not that extreme. But alot of Americans are split on this issue so this is not a reason why Reagan would be considered a bad president.

    6) He also pardoned many of his supporters who should be thrown in jail, but weren't.

    Tell me what US President hasn't used their power of giving pardons? The most recent example being President Clinton in the last year of his presidency. This doesn't make Reagan a bad president.



    Regarding the hostage crisis, it was later revealed that Reagan was involved in secret talks with the new regime. He promised them arms and spare part shipments in exchange for the release of the hostages, but only after he would be elected. I'm not defending Carter, for whom I believe acted way too soft, but it was still an extremely immoral thing to do.

    Iran-Contra had a really small impact because it was uncovered years after the actual events. Reagan sold shipments of arms and spare parts clandestinely to the Iranians and the money was then used to support the Contras in Nicaragua (some of it was also pocketed by his cabinet members). You surely remember Nicaragua and Salvador where his administration and that of Bush Sr. supported the anti-marxist rebels (N) and the corrupt anti-communist government (S). This left hundreds of thousands dead over the span of a decade.

    In regard inexperienced politicians you might actually be right, although someone who has absolutely no idea how things work in D.C. can be a liability. Bush Jr. seems to be a near-identical copy of Ronnie. Not too bright and doing only the things his advisors order him to. Interesting thought: many of his advisors are the same as during 1981-1993.

    Anthony Kennedy for me was not really an issue, but the way he took some political decisions makes me cringe, especially when you consider the US and the USSR had literally thousands of nukes pointing at each other at the time.

    I'm also not a supporter of abortion as a stand-in for contraception, but I really don't think anyone should be telling you what to do with your body...

    As for pardoning, here is a list of some of the pardons:
    Ronald Reagan's Presidential Pardons
    Albert Alkek Clemency for withholding information from federal officials regarding an oil price-fixing scheme.
    Gilbert Dozier Commuted sentence for extortion and racketeering.
    W. Mark Felt Clemency for authorizing FBI agents to break into Vietnam protestors' offices without warrants.
    Junior Johnson Pardoned for liquor offences committed in the 1950s.
    Edward Miller Clemency for authorizing FBI agents to break into Vietnam protestors' offices without warrants.
    George Steinbrenner Clemency for making illegal contributions to Richard M. Nixon's 1972 re-election campaign.

    Also, I never claimed Clinton was a saint

    Re: Oh NO!! VAT rising from 16% to 19% in Germany

    Well, there you go again Crash....

    If we applied your spin test to all US presidents, Lincoln would have been impeached for corruption, destruction of private property, a illegal draft and suspending habeous corpus.

    Ronnie did something substantially different than his predecessors, something wich no one can ever second guess.

    He called BS on "peaceful coexistence" and the status quo between the USSR and the West. Then he out spent them defense wise until they collapsed from trying to keep up.

    JFK might have gone to Berlin and slagged off a cute phrase, but thats all he did. JFK allowed the Russians to construct the Berlin Wall in violation of the existing Four Power Treaty. It was Reagan whose policies finally got it removed.




    Re: Oh NO!! VAT rising from 16% to 19% in Germany

    Politics aside,

    I remember when I was an exchange student in Germany in the summer of 1981. Our group from Rochester (Brighton), New York was touring Berlin before we lived with our exchange group from Bremen (Lesum), former West Germany. In Berlin, we stopped at "Checkpoint Charlie" at the Friedrichstrasse entrance to the former East Berlin. We were forbidden to take photographs per East German rules, but I pulled out my old Kodak, manual crank regular-eight movie camera (from about 1955 vintage), it looked more like a machine gun housing than a camera, and I panned around from our bus, catching the guards and the gate. Our courier said later I was lucky I wasn't machine gunned down. Then ten years later, what a delight to watch it all come down.

    Re: Oh NO!! VAT rising from 16% to 19% in Germany

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    Well, there you go again Crash....

    If we applied your spin test to all US presidents, Lincoln would have been impeached for corruption, destruction of private property, a illegal draft and suspending habeous corpus.

    Ronnie did something substantially different than his predecessors, something wich no one can ever second guess.

    He called BS on "peaceful coexistence" and the status quo between the USSR and the West. Then he out spent them defense wise until they collapsed from trying to keep up.

    JFK might have gone to Berlin and slagged off a cute phrase, but thats all he did. JFK allowed the Russians to construct the Berlin Wall in violation of the existing Four Power Treaty. It was Reagan whose policies finally got it removed.







    Well, since Lincoln did not applaud the cast in that theatre enough, they dealt with him in that most American of manners - gunned him down . Who knows what were to happen if he lived. But then again, he had a perfect cover: his criminal actions probably went unnoticed. Now who else in VERY recent history has used war as an excuse? Dubya for his oil exploits and Billy for his cigar handling (remember Sudan?) .

    Ronnies actions were idiotic. Granted, they did result in a pleasant ending, but it could have been worse. Btw, the Soviet Union was already in deep trouble by the end of the '70s and various nations inside the Union, such as the Ukranians and the Belarussians were bound to get out sooner or later. Reagan MAY have accelerated the process, but he sure didn't cause it.
    Regarding JFK, with thousands of Soviet tanks surrounding Berlin, I really don't think there was much he could do. They were lucky enough to keep West Berlin under allied control. Admittedly though, there was an option put forth by Stalin in 1952 to make Germany a tampon zone of sorts, making it a neutral state. Truman denied. So Kennedy isn't really the one to blame, is he?

    P.S.: Does anyone else get the feeling that we might have veered a bit off topic?

    Re: Oh NO!! VAT rising from 16% to 19% in Germany

    Quote:
    Crash said:
    P.S.: Does anyone else get the feeling that we might have veered a bit off topic?



    I'm still trying to work out whether it was as a result of understeering or oversteering.

    Re: Oh NO!! VAT rising from 16% to 19% in Germany

    Quote:
    fritz said:
    Quote:
    Crash said:
    P.S.: Does anyone else get the feeling that we might have veered a bit off topic?



    I'm still trying to work out whether it was as a result of understeering or oversteering.



    Don't know. Ask my passenger

    Re: Oh NO!! VAT rising from 16% to 19% in Germany

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    Sorry, RC, but the German military has been a joke in Afghanistan.With the exception of the few SF teams they have in country, the regular German units there have been timid, useless and nothing more than armed tourists. They are a national disgrace for their combat avoidance, lack of initiative and zero fighting spirit. Worse yet they dont even realize that or want to admit it. Blame it on the political leadership, the culture or whatever, but they are a joke force of suntan seekers from a costume shop. Excluding the KsK, the German military in the past ten years
    cannot name, or even guess the name, of a SINGLE bandit, Taliban, terrorist, Somali warlord, Balkan butcher or Afghani drug runner it has fired even one bullet at. Their score is zero for 10 years of overseas deployment in the worlds hotspots.




    Jim, this time, I have to disagree with you. You may want to learn something about Germany's constitution, laws (some of them forced upon us by the US occupancy after WWII) and international agreements.

    1. the german army was never allowed to get involved in war activities outside the german border, you can't ignore the constitution and a law, which actually resulted from WWII.
    2. the first time Germany attacked a foreign country was in Serbia, german planes were jamming certain frequencies and at the same time deploying rockets on radar and anti-air/ground-to-air missle sites. The german Luftwaffe did that to keep these missles off the US Airforce's b.tt because the US Airforce didn't have this technoogy (believe it or not). This action was backed by a UN resolution.
    3. the german army is in Afghanistan on a PEACE mission, they are not in war. This is ESSENTIAL to their whole presence there, you should learn a little bit more about international politics, laws and agreements. The fact that the KSK is operating in this region is a well known "secret", the german government doesn't like to talk about it because it could endanger the presence of their soldiers there. First goal of the german army in Afghanistan is a police action, to secure the work of aid helpers and to patrol around Afghanistan to give people confidence. Trust me if I tell you that no Afghani is really happy to see a US uniform.
    4. the german navy is also supporting patrol and police action (also backed by UN resolutions) in certain regions, especially next to Africa.

    I'm afraid that I have to say something about the Bush government too and believe me, everybody who knows me, knows that I'm with the US on most of the global issues but I also think that the Bush government did a lot of mistakes. You can't cut a tumor from somebody's body with a nuke, you need a scalpel if you want to have even the slightest chance to rescue him.

    Look at your post and I start to realize why the Bush goverment lost support in the international world. You just have to learn to INFORM yourself before you start to plan a strategy. The Bush government also succeeded in making the US the most hated country in the world and I'm not exaggerating and I'm not talking about the middle east only. I'm afraid the US press and especially television is a little bit biased, if you would see and hear what we see and hear over here, you would be ashamed of the whole situation. But to make one thing clear: I do NOT agree with it, I AM a supporter of the USA but I also think that the Bush government broke a lot of porcellan like we say here.

    Take the supporting countries like Italy, the Netherlands or others. Even the UK. Do you think the population likes what happens? Do you think that the US has a positive image in these countries? Have you never asked yourself: why the heck do they hate us? Why do they protest against us? The answer is simple: 90% of the people in the Bush government have no clue about diplomatic rules, propaganda and how to "persuade" friends to help. You can't put a gun at a friend's head and ask him for support. This ain't gonna work. Pres. Bush isn't even the problem, I don't know why all the people blame him for what is happening. The problem are certain people in the US government who lied to him and who had and still have their own agenda. Especially Rumsfeld and Cheney come on my mind.

    Look what is happening in Iraq: you fight a war, you win it and then you loose over 2000 lives in activities AFTER the war officially ended. This is insane.
    Why did this happen? Simple: because the US strategy was focused on military action only but forgot completely about police action, propaganda action and more important actions to win the sympathy of the population.

    Regarding France, this is a different story. You can't expect a country which has strong ties to the middle east, incl. some very important oil contracts, to be on your side when you want to start a war.

    Sorry Jim but the world isn't just black and white, wrong or not wrong, good or bad. There is much more involved and unfortunately the US succeeded in losing almost all sympathy they had after 9/11 from the international community. This was the dumbest thing the US government could ever do. And believe it or not, the next dumbest move will probably be the removal of the US presence/army from Iraq sooner or later, leaving Iraq in chaos.

    Politically and economically, I agree, Germany is a mess indeed. But this has nothing to do with the army or with the support for the US in the past.
    You should ask yourself how it was possible that the media worldwide (incl. even US media) portraits Pres. Bush and his government as THE evil, sometimes even more than the Taliban, Bin Laden and all the others? How was it possible to get this far? It is a shame.

    Again: I agree with the reasons why the US had to do what they did and I even agree with most of the methods.
    What I don't agree with is the fact that they ignored the opinion of their friends and walked over dead bodies to achieve their own agenda, ignoring some vital political facts and national delicacies.

    Re: Oh NO!! VAT rising from 16% to 19% in Germany

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    Sorry, RC, but the German military has been a joke in Afghanistan.With the exception of the few SF teams they have in country, the regular German units there have been timid, useless and nothing more than armed tourists. They are a national disgrace for their combat avoidance, lack of initiative and zero fighting spirit. Worse yet they dont even realize that or want to admit it. Blame it on the political leadership, the culture or whatever, but they are a joke force of suntan seekers from a costume shop. Excluding the KsK, the German military in the past ten years
    cannot name, or even guess the name, of a SINGLE bandit, Taliban, terrorist, Somali warlord, Balkan butcher or Afghani drug runner it has fired even one bullet at. Their score is zero for 10 years of overseas deployment in the worlds hotspots.




    Jim, this time, I have to disagree with you. You may want to learn something about Germany's constitution, laws (some of them forced upon us by the US occupancy after WWII) and international agreements.

    1. the german army was never allowed to get involved in war activities outside the german border, you can't ignore the constitution and a law, which actually resulted from WWII.
    2. the first time Germany attacked a foreign country was in Serbia, german planes were jamming certain frequencies and at the same time deploying rockets on radar and anti-air/ground-to-air missle sites. The german Luftwaffe did that to keep these missles off the US Airforce's b.tt because the US Airforce didn't have this technoogy (believe it or not). This action was backed by a UN resolution.
    3. the german army is in Afghanistan on a PEACE mission, they are not in war. This is ESSENTIAL to their whole presence there, you should learn a little bit more about international politics, laws and agreements. The fact that the KSK is operating in this region is a well known "secret", the german government doesn't like to talk about it because it could endanger the presence of their soldiers there. First goal of the german army in Afghanistan is a police action, to secure the work of aid helpers and to patrol around Afghanistan to give people confidence. Trust me if I tell you that no Afghani is really happy to see a US uniform.
    4. the german navy is also supporting patrol and police action (also backed by UN resolutions) in certain regions, especially next to Africa.

    I'm afraid that I have to say something about the Bush government too and believe me, everybody who knows me, knows that I'm with the US on most of the global issues but I also think that the Bush government did a lot of mistakes. You can't cut a tumor from somebody's body with a nuke, you need a scalpel if you want to have even the slightest chance to rescue him.

    Look at your post and I start to realize why the Bush goverment lost support in the international world. You just have to learn to INFORM yourself before you start to plan a strategy. The Bush government also succeeded in making the US the most hated country in the world and I'm not exaggerating and I'm not talking about the middle east only. I'm afraid the US press and especially television is a little bit biased, if you would see and hear what we see and hear over here, you would be ashamed of the whole situation. But to make one thing clear: I do NOT agree with it, I AM a supporter of the USA but I also think that the Bush government broke a lot of porcellan like we say here.

    Take the supporting countries like Italy, the Netherlands or others. Even the UK. Do you think the population likes what happens? Do you think that the US has a positive image in these countries? Have you never asked yourself: why the heck do they hate us? Why do they protest against us? The answer is simple: 90% of the people in the Bush government have no clue about diplomatic rules, propaganda and how to "persuade" friends to help. You can't put a gun at a friend's head and ask him for support. This ain't gonna work. Pres. Bush isn't even the problem, I don't know why all the people blame him for what is happening. The problem are certain people in the US government who lied to him and who had and still have their own agenda. Especially Rumsfeld and Cheney come on my mind.

    Look what is happening in Iraq: you fight a war, you win it and then you loose over 2000 lives in activities AFTER the war officially ended. This is insane.
    Why did this happen? Simple: because the US strategy was focused on military action only but forgot completely about police action, propaganda action and more important actions to win the sympathy of the population.

    Regarding France, this is a different story. You can't expect a country which has strong ties to the middle east, incl. some very important oil contracts, to be on your side when you want to start a war.

    Sorry Jim but the world isn't just black and white, wrong or not wrong, good or bad. There is much more involved and unfortunately the US succeeded in losing almost all sympathy they had after 9/11 from the international community. This was the dumbest thing the US government could ever do. And believe it or not, the next dumbest move will probably be the removal of the US presence/army from Iraq sooner or later, leaving Iraq in chaos.

    Politically and economically, I agree, Germany is a mess indeed. But this has nothing to do with the army or with the support for the US in the past.
    You should ask yourself how it was possible that the media worldwide (incl. even US media) portraits Pres. Bush and his government as THE evil, sometimes even more than the Taliban, Bin Laden and all the others? How was it possible to get this far? It is a shame.

    Again: I agree with the reasons why the US had to do what they did and I even agree with most of the methods.
    What I don't agree with is the fact that they ignored the opinion of their friends and walked over dead bodies to achieve their own agenda, ignoring some vital political facts and national delicacies.



    EXACTLY my sentiments! RC, congratulations on another great post!

    Re: Oh NO!! VAT rising from 16% to 19% in Germany

    Yes, good post RC, even though I don't agree with some of your points. Thanks.

    Re: Oh NO!! VAT rising from 16% to 19% in Germany

    Quote:
    Jim48 said:
    Quote:
    SoCal Alan said:
    Quote:
    Robert2005 said:
    Quote:
    SoCal Alan said:
    Quote:
    Crash said:
    LOL at the last sentence . Like I said the economics need to change, but not in a way to mirror the US model. There HAS to be a way to keep a country economically stable and prosperous, while keeping poverty to a minimum (something the US failed to achieve). Regarding Germany's history, that is quite unfortunate, although 60 years ago they came extremely close. Luckily, they screwed themselves the last time...



    You will always have the poor, middle, and upper class. I don't quite understand your statement regarding "keeping povery to a minimum (something the US failed to achieve)". That's a pretty open-ended statement. What's your poverty acceptibility level? 15%? 10%? If you look at our history, we have had our poverty level between 10-15% for the last 40 years. And we continue to throw a higher percentage of our GDP into the welfare system. Shouldn't it have gone down by now?



    There is a bigger gap between rich and poor in the US than in the EU. (many reasons) If more low / middle class people are able to spend (more) money, the better your economy will sustain.



    What's the relevance of the first statement to the second?


    Sorry SoCal Alan and RC for dwelling on this.

    I realize that this is really off-topic, except that it goes to whether or not various governments are just on a revenue hunt, that is, trying to justify major tax and spending increases by fooling the public, and incidentally, raising the price of the car that we like to , or aspire to, drive, various Porsche's.

    The whole philospophy of taxing (I call it lootiing) those who have the income to give to those who won't work, or who are just jealous of those with a greater income, is nothing more than, in the words (paraphrased) of the 19th century French economist, Frederic Bastiat, "plunder." Politicians have only so many years to loot the public. That's why they make they promises they make, so that they can loot as much as they can as fast as they can.

    Jim



    I agree with you Jim. I studied some Economics in college and although it was not my major, I would not have minded if it was. Had to go the Electrical Engineering route.

    Re: Oh NO!! VAT rising from 16% to 19% in Germany

    RC, please disagree all that you wish. believe it or not, I happen to know something about the German constitution and its history.

    The German Army in Afghanistan is under NATO contol and command. The NATO mission involves curtailing drug operations and security against any resurgent Taliban.
    So far the German army hasnt achieved jack except for country drives and handing out pens and paper like school teacher assistants. Is that any use for a Army? You say the US is hated in Afghanistan? Im sure that the taliban and tribal drug growing operators hate them and love how the Germany army just waves and smiles as they drive by.

    Good NATO partner there? Not when your forces wont fight and don't really help those who are. The KSK is very small and was even smaller recently because of a "political problem." I am being polite about that phrase, but if you know anything about the KSK's history, you know what I mean. The Heroin from Afghanistan is more of a problem for you than for us, has the German army engaged drug growers there? No. Its there choice not to.

    Yes, you have constitutional restraints etc and Germany can use those as an excuse to let others do the fighting and the dying for their benefit. Nice, have another beer!

    And some how that does tie in with Germanys economic woes.
    Its the psychology of the politcal and economic climate. How can Germany move ahead from its malaise to attract more jobs and make better lives if no one is responsibile for anything or willing to scarifice anything?

    As for what you choose to view in the european press, in general, what president havent they hated except Roosevelt? They damned truman,eisenhower, kennedy, Johnson, carter, ford, reagan, bush, clinton and the current bush. Suprise!

    If the US government formulated its policies and actions based upon a concensus of the european press and its readers, this forum would be in Cyrilic and posting about Ladas and Moskvitch's or debating wich Esso station is more islamic than the next.

    You want instant peace in Iraq? Forget it. Its not going to happen, its turned into a burial ground for any jihadist with a bus ticket and a AK. That may go one until their concept is exhuasted or we run out of places to bury them. At least Sweden, Belgium, Switzerland and Germany are profiting directly from the huge amounts of ammo we use. You should thank us for helping you keep jobs going.

    So tell us, what does the German government plan to do about Iranian nuclear missiles pointed at Berlin ?

    And what plan and what army does the european press have for that?

    And what plan does the German government have about Iranian support of jihadists in Iraq? Any answers? What, teach police recuits how to march and give speeding tickets?

    You have any troops or aircraft on the border with Iran to deal with a Iranian nutball regime armed with nuclear missles? Just who will you call about that?

    Look at the bigger picture.

    Re: Oh NO!! VAT rising from 16% to 19% in Germany

    EXACTLY, JIM!!!!!


    It's easy to be moral when you're sleeping!

    Re: Oh NO!! VAT rising from 16% to 19% in Germany

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    RC, please disagree all that you wish. believe it or not, I happen to know something about the German constitution and its history.




    Just looked up the following (official statistical data of the EU, 2003):

    Total Public Debt / GDP: Germany 64%, USA 63%
    Deficit of Public Budget / GDP: Germany -3.9%, USA -4.9%

    So if you are talking about a financial mess in Germany also the US seems to be in a very difficult situation. The difference between both countires is that the US citizens are not yet fully aware of their problems while the Germans are...

    Re: Oh NO!! VAT rising from 16% to 19% in Germany

    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    RC, please disagree all that you wish. believe it or not, I happen to know something about the German constitution and its history.




    Just looked up the following (official statistical data of the EU, 2003):

    Total Public Debt / GDP: Germany 64%, USA 63%
    Deficit of Public Budget / GDP: Germany -3.9%, USA -4.9%

    So if you are talking about a financial mess in Germany also the US seems to be in a very difficult situation. The difference between both countires is that the US citizens are not yet fully aware of their problems while the Germans are...



    So how do those numbers explain Germany's way larger unemployment rate and also the net negative birth rate?

    To claim that US citizens are not as "aware" as Germans are
    about their own economy is a good example of arrogance.

    Who are you to say that? Prove it!

    Re: Oh NO!! VAT rising from 16% to 19% in Germany

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    RC, please disagree all that you wish. believe it or not, I happen to know something about the German constitution and its history.




    Just looked up the following (official statistical data of the EU, 2003):

    Total Public Debt / GDP: Germany 64%, USA 63%
    Deficit of Public Budget / GDP: Germany -3.9%, USA -4.9%

    So if you are talking about a financial mess in Germany also the US seems to be in a very difficult situation. The difference between both countires is that the US citizens are not yet fully aware of their problems while the Germans are...



    So how do those numbers explain Germany's way larger unemployment rate and also the net negative birth rate?

    To claim that US citizens are not as "aware" as Germans are
    about their own economy is a good example of arrogance.

    Who are you to say that? Prove it!



    Your earlier statement is part of my prove

    Why? Because you state that the financial situation in Germany is a mess (something I could fully agree upon ). But then the US has the same debt / deficit to GDP figures! What would be your conclusion from your own remark and the statistical facts? Obviously, in claiming that the US citizens have not started to realize their own difficult financial situation I made the assumption that you could be somehow representative for a "typical" US citizen. That may indeed be a wrong assumption

    My explanation to the birth rate is simple: The Germans currently lack faith in their own economic future. However, this lack of faith is the outcome of a necessary calibration process: The process of realizing that something has to be done differently in the future in order to continue being successful as an economic force. I would expect the birth rate to improve when the public perception of the economic outlook will change to the better. This may take some time.

    The German unemployment rate is much too high. But as everybody in Germany is focused on this subject I am convinced that, over the next 5 to 10 years, this matter will be resolved somehow. There has been and still is increasing pressure on the government to lower unemployment rates. Actually, I think that this topic is the major impetus for a, probably, lengthy restructuring of the German system.

    But I am positive that the issues will be resolved at some day in the future

    Re: Oh NO!! VAT rising from 16% to 19% in Germany

    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Quote:
    SoCal Alan said:
    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Poverty was very virtually nonexistent where I live up until a few years ago but has risen up to almost 10% recently, mostly as a result of the textile industry collapse due to much cheaper chinese imports.



    Poverty IS non-existent where I live.



    I'm talking country-wide. It is also nonexistant where I live.



    Re poverty, I went to the States several times, there's 1 thing that comes back every time, old people, mostly black people, 70/75/80 years old cleaning the floor, serving dinner, helping out in the kitchen...etc. I just can't believe it. I just can't believe that I still have to work when I'm 70 years old!

    Re: Oh NO!! VAT rising from 16% to 19% in Germany

    Quote:
    Robert2005 said:
    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Quote:
    SoCal Alan said:
    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Poverty was very virtually nonexistent where I live up until a few years ago but has risen up to almost 10% recently, mostly as a result of the textile industry collapse due to much cheaper chinese imports.



    Poverty IS non-existent where I live.



    I'm talking country-wide. It is also nonexistant where I live.



    Re poverty, I went to the States several times, there's 1 thing that comes back every time, old people, mostly black people, 70/75/80 years old cleaning the floor, serving dinner, helping out in the kitchen...etc. I just can't believe it. I just can't believe that I still have to work when I'm 70 years old!



    True. Or drive through LA and look at all the homeless people sleeping on park benches. And the worst part is that normal people just don't care.

    Re: Oh NO!! VAT rising from 16% to 19% in Germany

    Quote:
    Robert2005 said:
    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Quote:
    SoCal Alan said:
    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Poverty was very virtually nonexistent where I live up until a few years ago but has risen up to almost 10% recently, mostly as a result of the textile industry collapse due to much cheaper chinese imports.



    Poverty IS non-existent where I live.



    I'm talking country-wide. It is also nonexistant where I live.



    Re poverty, I went to the States several times, there's 1 thing that comes back every time, old people, mostly black people, 70/75/80 years old cleaning the floor, serving dinner, helping out in the kitchen...etc. I just can't believe it. I just can't believe that I still have to work when I'm 70 years old!



    Where did you see this at, Robert?

    Re: Oh NO!! VAT rising from 16% to 19% in Germany

    Quote:
    Robert2005 said:
    I just can't believe that I still have to work when I'm 70 years old!



    If one is still mentally and physically healthy at age 70, then one SHOULD still work.

    Re: Oh NO!! VAT rising from 16% to 19% in Germany

    Quote:
    Robert2005 said:
    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Quote:
    SoCal Alan said:
    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Poverty was very virtually nonexistent where I live up until a few years ago but has risen up to almost 10% recently, mostly as a result of the textile industry collapse due to much cheaper chinese imports.



    Poverty IS non-existent where I live.



    I'm talking country-wide. It is also nonexistant where I live.



    Re poverty, I went to the States several times, there's 1 thing that comes back every time, old people, mostly black people, 70/75/80 years old cleaning the floor, serving dinner, helping out in the kitchen...etc. I just can't believe it. I just can't believe that I still have to work when I'm 70 years old!





    You're crazy! Do you want to pay the pension of somebody who never work of his live and who only take your money? Because when you work and when you pay your taxes (or social securities if you are employee), you pay all the people who prefer remain at house and prefer to not work, all the lazy peoples. I prefer to work till my dead. In all case, I must because I owning my business. I'm sorry but people like you are the dead of Europe. I will stop otherwise I will be nervous.

    Just one word considering Germany, I go often there and it's a great nation. When Germany will have a good government, this economy will be very good because there are people who mind well.

    Sorry for my English!

    Re: Oh NO!! VAT rising from 16% to 19% in Germany

    Quote:
    mljd said:
    Quote:
    Robert2005 said:
    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Quote:
    SoCal Alan said:
    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Poverty was very virtually nonexistent where I live up until a few years ago but has risen up to almost 10% recently, mostly as a result of the textile industry collapse due to much cheaper chinese imports.



    Poverty IS non-existent where I live.



    I'm talking country-wide. It is also nonexistant where I live.



    Re poverty, I went to the States several times, there's 1 thing that comes back every time, old people, mostly black people, 70/75/80 years old cleaning the floor, serving dinner, helping out in the kitchen...etc. I just can't believe it. I just can't believe that I still have to work when I'm 70 years old!





    You're crazy! Do you want to pay the pension of somebody who never work of his live and who only take your money? Because when you work and when you pay your taxes (or social securities if you are employee), you pay all the people who prefer remain at house and prefer to not work, all the lazy peoples. I prefer to work till my dead. In all case, I must because I owning my business. I'm sorry but people like you are the dead of Europe. I will stop otherwise I will be nervous.

    Just one word considering Germany, I go often there and it's a great nation. When Germany will have a good government, this economy will be very good because there are people who mind well.

    Sorry for my English!



    You should be a posterboy for Bush. We actually care for quality of life here. When I work and pay taxes I also pay for MY retirement check, with which I will be spared work at an old age. I feel sorry for narrow-minded people like you. Also, you apologized about your English (which is fine btw.). Where are you from, if not from the US?

    Re: Oh NO!! VAT rising from 16% to 19% in Germany

    Quote:
    Al Pettee said:
    Quote:
    Robert2005 said:
    I just can't believe that I still have to work when I'm 70 years old!



    If one is still mentally and physically healthy at age 70, then one SHOULD still work.



    At that age, one should work for his own mental well-being, not out of necessity. I know I probably will, but many people can't or are worse at their jobs than younger, more able people.

    Re: Oh NO!! VAT rising from 16% to 19% in Germany

    Quote:
    Crash said:
    You should be a posterboy for Bush. We actually care for quality of life here. When I work and pay taxes I also pay for MY retirement check, with which I will be spared work at an old age. I feel sorry for narrow-minded people like you. Also, you apologized about your English (which is fine btw.). Where are you from, if not from the US?



    Sorry, Crash. But you are reading too much propaganda over there in Belgium. We do care about our quality of life here. That's why it's better to have our Social Security system revamped so that people can "OWN" their retirement that they've accumulated all their lives. You should hear the restrictions that my father-in-law has for the measly amount of retirement check he's getting. He should be getting ALL the money that he's put in the system, for 42 years. He just started drawing Social Security retirement checks a few months ago, since he turned 62. Instead, if he lives for a few years, all that money is gone. That money is HIS. That money should be passed on to whoever he wants it to go to, for example his daughter. So that his family is taken care of. So that there's one less family that needs to go on welfare. Instead the government keeps it. Tell me, Crash. Is that fair? Do I want to see the Social Security system revamped. You bet your ass. Am I a poster boy for Bush in this regard? I guess so. But I don't think he's going far enough. Bush is a moderate Republican, as far as I'm concerned. Sorry for my vent.

     
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