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    Re: 991.2 and future models Thread Closed

    The SUVs were necessary to maintain the financial health of the company


    Re: 991.2 and future models Thread Closed

    wantone:

    The SUVs were necessary to maintain the financial health of the company

    Yes but the introduction of the SUVs also diluted the Porsche brand.  


    Re: 991.2 and future models Thread Closed

    Without the SUVs Porsche would have been history. 


    Re: 991.2 and future models Thread Closed

    Since I am basically only interested in Porsche SUV, they make a lot of sense at least to some of us broken heart


    Re: 991.2 and future models Thread Closed

    SciFrog:

    Since I am basically only interested in Porsche SUV, they make a lot of sense at least to some of us broken heart

    What makes a Porsche SUV so much more attractive than the other premium brand SUVs on the market?


    Re: 991.2 and future models Thread Closed

    CGX car nut:
    SciFrog:

    Since I am basically only interested in Porsche SUV, they make a lot of sense at least to some of us broken heart

    What makes a Porsche SUV so much more attractive than the other premium brand SUVs on the market?

    It's fast and expensive -

    We would all be wrong to assume Porsche would sell more if they cut prices.  In your face pricing - and everyone knowing about it - is a huge statement by the owners.  To the point where certain accessories or options are clearly less value to make a point about high prices for the owners.  We should be happy that we get decent engineering and moderate value compared to price is no object brands like Bentley, Aston, Ferrari, etc.

    Let's not forget that Porsche Design sells EVERYTHING and for TOTALLY stupid prices (key chains, wallets, pens,...) in high end retail stores so I would not worry about an SUV with decent off-road credentials diluting the brand.  The same rule applies to them - high price sells.  Good business to be in. Good for Porsche. 

    The best news is we get a lot more value by owning their cars than their watches, SUVs, pens, etc. and in some cases we get collectors cars which gain value (like pleasant surprise in your cereal box)

    Cheers


    Re: 991.2 and future models Thread Closed

    Now which engine will they use for RACING?  Still the Mezger?  If a NEW racing engine shows up I want to see it's birth certificate!

     


    Re: 991.2 and future models Thread Closed

    wantone:

    Without the SUVs Porsche would have been history. 

    Definitely not the case.  Their independent status would have been difficult to sustain, but it's gone now even with SUV's.  Porsche as a brand was never in jeopardy.


    --

    73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550


    Re: 991.2 and future models Thread Closed

    If Porsche had been acquired by VW early enough in the 90s as a pure sportscar company, it would have remained as such within the VW Empire.  And Audi wouldn't have made the R8 and there would be no need for a Porsche SUV.

    However, once the lucrative Cayenne was introduced under Wiedeking  to falsely safeguard independence, subsequent owners VW didn't want to sidetrack such a cash earner. But I don't think VW would have invented this class within the Porsche brand. There might be S and RS versions of Audi SUVs instead.


    --

     

    "Form follows function"

     


    Re: 991.2 and future models Thread Closed

    Leawood911:

    Now which engine will they use for RACING?  Still the Mezger?  If a NEW racing engine shows up I want to see it's birth certificate!

     

    Mezger will not be used in the near future. 2017 brings new GTE rules. Expect to see non-mezger turbo RSR relatively soon.


    Re: 991.2 and future models Thread Closed

    wantone:

    Without the SUVs Porsche would have been history. 

    I would say this is not true.

    There would have been other ways to safe the company. The moment the SUVs been planned Porsche already was kind of financially stable. The problem was that the egocentric CEO tried to become the highest paid and most powerful automotive manager of the world.

    1st - Porsche could have stayed small and financially stable. Growth would have been much smaller but the spirit might have been survived

    2nd - Porsche could have actively gave up its independence - meaning, instead of planning an unfriendly take over of VW they could have actively managed to go underneath VW

    Either way would have made Porsche surviving, too. 

    Nevertheless: Out of shareholder view everything went right. The share went sky rocket, the company grows and grows. Again.... they build cars to make shareholders and their own pockets happy. It is not because the spirit of building fine cars.

    And btw.... have a look at Ferrari or at Lamborghini. Both managed to stay supercar builders in more or less a mixture of the above mentioned 1./2. steps. 


    Re: 991.2 and future models Thread Closed

    Grant:
    RC:

    Lighter? Yes. Smaller? No. Also, 992 will be based on a Porsche developed platform but of course it cannot be excluded that other brands in the VW group won't use it too.

    I thought I read that the 992 will use a VW Group modular chassis that is shared across platforms (can be built as rear engine, mid-engine, etc.)?  Smiley

    Like I said before, the platform for the 992 has been developed by Porsche but I have no clue how and if it will be used for other brands in the VW Group.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: 991.2 and future models Thread Closed

    Spyderidol:
    Leawood911:

    Now which engine will they use for RACING?  Still the Mezger?  If a NEW racing engine shows up I want to see it's birth certificate!

     

    Mezger will not be used in the near future. 2017 brings new GTE rules. Expect to see non-mezger turbo RSR relatively soon.

    According to a couple of Weissach engineers I talked to during various occasions, the "Mezger" engine (they actually didn't know it by this name but the technical designation) is outdated and not as reliable as many may think. They all claimed that the new tech is better but of course this doesn't mean that you can use the new tech to easily put 800 horses in a 911 Turbo. A good engine isn't defined by the durability when tuned but many other factors. The "Mezger" engine is, according to these people, obsolete. I know it is hard to believe, especially considering the issues the GT3 had but I heard this from different people, not only one person and none of them had a reason to lie to me or to uphold the official Porsche "message". These were private talks, not "official business".

    I am actually very curious about the new tech. Btw: The current 991 engine is quite reliable according to my mechanic. He hasn't seen many 991 engines, especially lately, in the repair shop but tons of 997 and 996 engines. 


    --

     

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

     


    Re: 991.2 and future models Thread Closed

    Lars997:
    wantone:

    Without the SUVs Porsche would have been history. 

    I would say this is not true.

    There would have been other ways to safe the company. The moment the SUVs been planned Porsche already was kind of financially stable. The problem was that the egocentric CEO tried to become the highest paid and most powerful automotive manager of the world.

    1st - Porsche could have stayed small and financially stable. Growth would have been much smaller but the spirit might have been survived

    2nd - Porsche could have actively gave up its independence - meaning, instead of planning an unfriendly take over of VW they could have actively managed to go underneath VW

    Either way would have made Porsche surviving, too. 

    Nevertheless: Out of shareholder view everything went right. The share went sky rocket, the company grows and grows. Again.... they build cars to make shareholders and their own pockets happy. It is not because the spirit of building fine cars.

    And btw.... have a look at Ferrari or at Lamborghini. Both managed to stay supercar builders in more or less a mixture of the above mentioned 1./2. steps. 

    I agree. Porsche would have survived even without the Cayenne or Panamera but they would have evolved differently and with a much lower profit per car.

    This is actually what angers me most: Porsche tries to keep the profit margin per car at the current level and this also means that the improvements are always limited according to budget because they want to keep the profit margin at a high level.

    I do not know how Ferrari does it  and I do not know how high their profit margin is but the new 488 is really a benchmark in its class, a very impressive product.

    When I look at the new Huracan, the new R8 V10 Plus and the 488, I feel cheated by Porsche with the 991 Turbo S. I can't help it.

    Also, when I compare the new BMW X5M with the Cayenne Turbo S, I get the same feeling. 

    On the other hand, I am not sure if Porsche would have been able to keep up the quality improvements over years without the profits they made. Even if I still think that there is a lot of room for improvements and the next 911 generation will prove me right (according to rumors, the interior will have the highest quality standard in its class).


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: 991.2 and future models Thread Closed

    Lars997:
    wantone:

    Without the SUVs Porsche would have been history. 

    I would say this is not true.

    There would have been other ways to safe the company. The moment the SUVs been planned Porsche already was kind of financially stable. The problem was that the egocentric CEO tried to become the highest paid and most powerful automotive manager of the world.

    1st - Porsche could have stayed small and financially stable. Growth would have been much smaller but the spirit might have been survived

    2nd - Porsche could have actively gave up its independence - meaning, instead of planning an unfriendly take over of VW they could have actively managed to go underneath VW

    Either way would have made Porsche surviving, too. 

    Nevertheless: Out of shareholder view everything went right. The share went sky rocket, the company grows and grows. Again.... they build cars to make shareholders and their own pockets happy. It is not because the spirit of building fine cars.

    And btw.... have a look at Ferrari or at Lamborghini. Both managed to stay supercar builders in more or less a mixture of the above mentioned 1./2. steps. 

    This is pure speculation of what it could have happened if the SUV was not introduced. From what I can remember the management at that time didn't want to take option 1 or option 2. My opinion option 1 would result in the diminishing of the company since cars had become a lot more complex due to safety and emmisions requirements (regulation) and more sales were needed to break even. Plus marketing and dealership costs were high and 1.5 model could not sustain the network. They obviously fought fiercely against option 2 (which I think that's what Ferrari, Lambo took quite early in order to stay focused on sports cars).


    Re: 991.2 and future models Thread Closed

    Lets put things this way - what would happen if Porsche decides to drop Cayenne & Panamera? You will get your answer why those cars were introduced in first place 


    --

     

    My new blog with automotive & motorcycle renders: tessoart.blogspot.com

     


    Re: 991.2 and future models Thread Closed

    Milanno:

    Lets put things this way - what would happen if Porsche decides to drop Cayenne & Panamera? You will get your answer why those cars were introduced in first place 


    --

     

    My new blog with automotive & motorcycle renders: tessoart.blogspot.com

     

    Now it is too late, Porsche is a stock company now and dropping the Cayenne and Panamera would drive them into bankruptcy pretty fast. Also, what sense would it make to drop these cars now?

    Ferrari has done it right, from an enthusiast's point of view. They stayed small, even if they always had their back covered by mother Fiat. I doubt that Ferrari is as profitable as Porsche, probably not by a long shot but they are getting by quite well and the new 488 and the upcoming F12 Speciale or GTO or whatever it will be called, are amazing products for somehow "affordable" money.

    If I had 200k now and I had to choose between a 991 Turbo S and a 488, I know exactly what I would get.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: 991.2 and future models Thread Closed

    RC:

    If I had 200k now and I had to choose between a 991 Turbo S and a 488, I know exactly what I would get.

    mmmh....sure?


    --

    997TT RS Tuning stage II(sold),2011 Cayenne Turbo(sold),waiting 991 GT3 RS


    Re: 991.2 and future models Thread Closed

    RC:
    Spyderidol:
    Leawood911:

    Now which engine will they use for RACING?  Still the Mezger?  If a NEW racing engine shows up I want to see it's birth certificate!

    Mezger will not be used in the near future. 2017 brings new GTE rules. Expect to see non-mezger turbo RSR relatively soon.

    According to a couple of Weissach engineers I talked to during various occasions, the "Mezger" engine (they actually didn't know it by this name but the technical designation) is outdated and not as reliable as many may think.

    Mezger schmezger... This engine has turned into an Internet legend far from it's actual merits and shortfalls.


    --

    2015 981 Cayman GT4 | White | Full Bucket Seats | Sport Chrono
    2014 991 Carrera 4S | Dark Blue Metallic | PDK | Sport Chrono | SPASM


    Re: 991.2 and future models Thread Closed

    so what are the Mezger issues?

     


    Re: 991.2 and future models Thread Closed

    RC:
    Milanno:

    Lets put things this way - what would happen if Porsche decides to drop Cayenne & Panamera? You will get your answer why those cars were introduced in first place 


    --

     

    My new blog with automotive & motorcycle renders: tessoart.blogspot.com

     

    Now it is too late, Porsche is a stock company now and dropping the Cayenne and Panamera would drive them into bankruptcy pretty fast. Also, what sense would it make to drop these cars now?

    Ferrari has done it right, from an enthusiast's point of view. They stayed small, even if they always had their back covered by mother Fiat. I doubt that Ferrari is as profitable as Porsche, probably not by a long shot but they are getting by quite well and the new 488 and the upcoming F12 Speciale or GTO or whatever it will be called, are amazing products for somehow "affordable" money.

    If I had 200k now and I had to choose between a 991 Turbo S and a 488, I know exactly what I would get.

    I think you are missing the point (again).

    991 Turbo S is the high end model of a lower category series of cars that starts with the Boxster. You will obviously find less value at the high end since the car is loaded with options that have extremely high margins. 488 is the entry level supercar (of a more expensive and limited production platform) and therefore if made right it offers more value for your money.


    Re: 991.2 and future models Thread Closed

    I totally get that the mezger is ancient tech. That makes the fact that they race it and not the super reliable 991 engine even more strange which is why I asked the question. Btw stating that there are lots of 996 and 997 engines failing at the shop misses the fact that these are not mezger engines. They are the ones they will not take on the race track. Pitiful that Porsche themselves chose to race the old tech up until now. I wonder if we will see the next race engine in a road car?

    the fact is you can call it old tech or whatever. They more they bash it the more crow they eat when they can't seem to replace it on the track. Does anyone see this or am I the only one?


    Re: 991.2 and future models Thread Closed

    9A1 (991) engine showed itself as incredibly reliable through whole range of 991 models. GT3 agony should be treated separately.


    --

    My new blog with automotive & motorcycle renders: tessoart.blogspot.com


    Re: 991.2 and future models Thread Closed

    Milanno:

    9A1 (991) engine showed itself as incredibly reliable through whole range of 991 models. GT3 agony should be treated separately.

    The 9A1 started even earlier, in 2008 with the 997.2,. Therefore 7 years and some 140.000 cars without any problems.


    --

     

    "Form follows function"

     


    Re: 991.2 and future models Thread Closed

    9A1 will be replaced in 991.2 and 981.2 


    Re: 991.2 and future models Thread Closed

    Can't see it mentioned anywhere in this long thread, but in this week's Autocar they say "Facelifted 911 details emerge" 

    "key changes include the adoption of a new turbocharged six cylinder engine in place of the 911's traditionally aspirated flat six.

    The new engine shares its architecture, including its individual cylinder volume, with the smaller turbo four cylinder power plant that Porsche boss Matthias Muller has said will go into Facelifetd Boxster and Cayman next year.

    in the facelifted 911 Carrera the turbo flat six has a capacity of 3.0 litres and a claimed 365bhp at 6500 rpm. The Carrera S has around 414 bhp with 369 lb ft at just 1700 rpm. This gives a reduction in the 0-62mph time for the 911 Carrera at 4.2 seconds. the 911 Carrera drops 0.5 secs to 4.0 secs with the optional seven speed dual clutch gearbox.

    the new engines are claimed to deliver notably better fuel economy too. Nothing is official but the Carrera S is now said to average 37.7 mpg. 

    A sound symposer which directs the exhaust noise through the cabin has been adopted to enhance the aural qualities of the 911's new turbocharged engine.

    Latest test cars also showed a new steering wheel mounted driving mode control offering the choice of four settings. Similar to the one in the 918!Spyder, it is among a myriad of detailed interior modifications"

     


    --

     

    Porsche Boxster GTS Carrara white / Skoda Octavia Mk.3 daily drive

     


    Re: 991.2 and future models Thread Closed

    bluelines:
    RC:
    Spyderidol:
    Leawood911:

    Now which engine will they use for RACING?  Still the Mezger?  If a NEW racing engine shows up I want to see it's birth certificate!

    Mezger will not be used in the near future. 2017 brings new GTE rules. Expect to see non-mezger turbo RSR relatively soon.

    According to a couple of Weissach engineers I talked to during various occasions, the "Mezger" engine (they actually didn't know it by this name but the technical designation) is outdated and not as reliable as many may think.

    Mezger schmezger... This engine has turned into an Internet legend far from it's actual merits and shortfalls.

    That is the true.


    --

    J.Seven

    997.2 Cab 2S

    Maserati Quattroporte Sport GTS

    BMW X6 4.0D

     


    Re: 991.2 and future models Thread Closed

    sfo:

    9A1 will be replaced in 991.2 and 981.2 

    Not because it has any flaws, it will be replaced because Porsche needs a lower fleet consumption and CO2 output and this is only possible with turbo engines right now.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: 991.2 and future models Thread Closed

    dreamcar:

    Can't see it mentioned anywhere in this long thread, but in this week's Autocar they say "Facelifted 911 details emerge" 

    "key changes include the adoption of a new turbocharged six cylinder engine in place of the 911's traditionally aspirated flat six.

    The new engine shares its architecture, including its individual cylinder volume, with the smaller turbo four cylinder power plant that Porsche boss Matthias Muller has said will go into Facelifetd Boxster and Cayman next year.

    in the facelifted 911 Carrera the turbo flat six has a capacity of 3.0 litres and a claimed 365bhp at 6500 rpm. The Carrera S has around 414 bhp with 369 lb ft at just 1700 rpm. This gives a reduction in the 0-62mph time for the 911 Carrera at 4.2 seconds. the 911 Carrera drops 0.5 secs to 4.0 secs with the optional seven speed dual clutch gearbox.

    the new engines are claimed to deliver notably better fuel economy too. Nothing is official but the Carrera S is now said to average 37.7 mpg. 

    A sound symposer which directs the exhaust noise through the cabin has been adopted to enhance the aural qualities of the 911's new turbocharged engine.

    Latest test cars also showed a new steering wheel mounted driving mode control offering the choice of four settings. Similar to the one in the 918!Spyder, it is among a myriad of detailed interior modifications"

     


    --

     

    Porsche Boxster GTS Carrara white / Skoda Octavia Mk.3 daily drive

     

    You're a little bit late to the party, this has already been said with the photos published a few days ago by various publications where the final testing in South Africa is shown.

    So far, it seems that the power figures will be 420 hp for the Carrera S and 370 hp for the Carrera (the bhp values you posted should be correct). Good news for GTS owners, even if the Carrera S will be slightly faster under real life conditions because of the higher torque and the "pre-loading" of the turbo chargers.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: 991.2 and future models Thread Closed

    wantone:
     

    991 Turbo S is the high end model of a lower category series of cars that starts with the Boxster. You will obviously find less value at the high end since the car is loaded with options that have extremely high margins. 488 is the entry level supercar (of a more expensive and limited production platform) and therefore if made right it offers more value for your money.

    In theory this might sound interesting. But in practice... A 488 is a 488. A turbo S is a turbo S - both are in the same league. It is a matter of taste. I, for example, don't want a 488 after the experiences I had with Ferrari. But I want a turbo S.


     
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