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    Cayman isn't a success

    A good article on the limited (sales) success of the Cayman

    http://www.total911.com/news/2698/?utm_source=Adestra&utm_medium=email&utm_term&utm_content=Why+the+Porsche+Cayman+i...


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: Cayman isn't a success

    Thanks.  But I dont think he knows much about Porsches or their strategic product marketing plan. 

    The Cayman exists because it sells for more and is cheaper to build than a Boxster. And obviously in that price range some people dont want a convertible. So, the solution was the Cayman.


    Re: Cayman isn't a success

    With the Cayman, things are quite as easy I'm afraid.

    This is my take on the Cayman and it's limited success (a couple of short points):

    1. Cayman looks too much like the Boxster, true

    2. Cayman is somehow considered to be the "poor" man's 911 (Boxster has similar problem, is perceived by many as a woman's Porsche)

    3. Cayman is underpowered...somehow (strong point is actually mid-engine design and chassis)

    4. Cayman could compete with the 911, under the following conditions:

    a.) The most powerful Cayman shouldn't be able to outrun the 911 Carrera top model (S or GTS) on the straight line, while the 991 needs to grow slightly and get more room in the rear (happening right now) to make it less attractive for young(er) people who need a very dynamic Porsche

    b.) Cayman shouldn't get the 911 Boxer engine(s) but it's own engine line (which is going to happen very likely with the rumored turbo charged 4-cyl. engine(s))

    c.) Cayman should get a more distinctive look to separate it more from the Boxster but especially from the 911 (roof line is the secret here)

    d.) Cayman top model should be extremely sporty, making it not interesting enough for potential 911 customers (lack of major comfort features, etc.)

    5. The name of the Cayman may also not be quite OK...we already know the fun making Gayman, for young men not really a good marketing decision. I would call the Cayman Porsche Sport or simply Coupe S or Coupe R but maybe some marketing genius finds a more appropriate name for it.

    Bottom line is: No matter how good the Cayman is, especially in the R flavor, it carries a lot of handicap for a Porsche.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW


    Re: Cayman isn't a success

    reginos:

    A good article on the limited (sales) success of the Cayman

    http://www.total911.com/news/2698/?utm_source=Adestra&utm_medium=email&utm_term&utm_content=Why+the+Porsche+Cayman+i...

    The only reason the Cayman does not sell in larger numbers is because it was not appropriately priced as a Boxster coupé when it was first introduced. The market recognises this and only the relatively smaller number of buyers who are prepared to overlook this go for it.

    This marketing strategy was surely a conscious decision so no one at Porsche should have any trouble living with it now. After all, the additional costs of developing and tooling a coupé version of an existing model would not be so great that the smaller production numbers result in it being a loss-maker. 

    The Cayman is a really great sports car for connoisseurs which, though not offered at bargain basement prices, adds to the company's product range and gives repeat buyers of the brand (which tends to have long life cycles with evolutionary model changes) an alternative to go for when they want a change. Success is not always obvious.


    --

    fritz


    Re: Cayman isn't a success

    What you are in effect saying is:

    Had it been cheaper than the Boxster it would still not generate proportionately more sales so as to raise Porsche's revenues further.

    Or

    The sales potential of this type of Porsche coupe is saturated at the present level, so Porsche are  maximizing their revenues by their odd pricing structure.

    It could be so


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: Cayman isn't a success

    The only problem of the Cayman is its price. It is ridiculous to price the Coupé higher than the corresponding Convertible. 

    Even if it has some extra hp which you most probably won't recognise.

    If a Boxster S costs 57k, price the Cayman S between 52k and 55k (and not at 62.5k) and it will sell. And if the cheapest Boxster is yours for 47k, you should not spend more than 45k for the cheapest Cayman.


    --

    The secret of life is to admire without desiring.


    Re: Cayman isn't a success

    Rossi:

    The only problem of the Cayman is its price. It is ridiculous to price the Coupé higher than the corresponding Convertible. 

    Even if it has some extra hp which you most probably won't recognise.

    If a Boxster S costs 57k, price the Cayman S between 52k and 55k (and not at 62.5k) and it will sell. And if the cheapest Boxster is yours for 47k, you should not spend more than 45k for the cheapest Cayman.

     I agree.

    I does not make sense that the 911 cabriolet in any form is priced higher than it's coupe counter part. In this case, this is the other way round Smiley


    Re: Cayman isn't a success

    RC:

    With the Cayman, things are quite as easy I'm afraid.

    This is my take on the Cayman and it's limited success (a couple of short points):

    1. Cayman looks too much like the Boxster, true

    2. Cayman is somehow considered to be the "poor" man's 911 (Boxster has similar problem, is perceived by many as a woman's Porsche)

    3. Cayman is underpowered...somehow (strong point is actually mid-engine design and chassis)

    4. Cayman could compete with the 911, under the following conditions:

    a.) The most powerful Cayman shouldn't be able to outrun the 911 Carrera top model (S or GTS) on the straight line, while the 991 needs to grow slightly and get more room in the rear (happening right now) to make it less attractive for young(er) people who need a very dynamic Porsche

    b.) Cayman shouldn't get the 911 Boxer engine(s) but it's own engine line (which is going to happen very likely with the rumored turbo charged 4-cyl. engine(s))

    c.) Cayman should get a more distinctive look to separate it more from the Boxster but especially from the 911 (roof line is the secret here)

    d.) Cayman top model should be extremely sporty, making it not interesting enough for potential 911 customers (lack of major comfort features, etc.)

    5. The name of the Cayman may also not be quite OK...we already know the fun making Gayman, for young men not really a good marketing decision. I would call the Cayman Porsche Sport or simply Coupe S or Coupe R but maybe some marketing genius finds a more appropriate name for it.

    Bottom line is: No matter how good the Cayman is, especially in the R flavor, it carries a lot of handicap for a Porsche.


    Agree with most of points, especially that Cayman should be extrememly sporty.  More raw like the 911 of the air-cooled engine time. 

    I personally have never heard anyone in person make fun of the Cayman Gayman name.  Find it very childish, and I will look down on (for the childishness) whoever make such joke. 


    --

    93' Guard Red 968 Coupe


    Re: Cayman isn't a success

    Heard the joke many, many times now. (Bad choice of names to start with, is the only blame).

    Price should have always been below the convertible version (early speculation thought it would be).

    Misname it, misprice it; interesting sales approach.

     


    Re: Cayman isn't a success

    RC:

    With the Cayman, things are quite as easy I'm afraid.

    This is my take on the Cayman and it's limited success (a couple of short points):

    1. Cayman looks too much like the Boxster, true

    2. Cayman is somehow considered to be the "poor" man's 911 (Boxster has similar problem, is perceived by many as a woman's Porsche)

    3. Cayman is underpowered...somehow (strong point is actually mid-engine design and chassis)

    4. Cayman could compete with the 911, under the following conditions:

    a.) The most powerful Cayman shouldn't be able to outrun the 911 Carrera top model (S or GTS) on the straight line, while the 991 needs to grow slightly and get more room in the rear (happening right now) to make it less attractive for young(er) people who need a very dynamic Porsche

    b.) Cayman shouldn't get the 911 Boxer engine(s) but it's own engine line (which is going to happen very likely with the rumored turbo charged 4-cyl. engine(s))

    c.) Cayman should get a more distinctive look to separate it more from the Boxster but especially from the 911 (roof line is the secret here)

    d.) Cayman top model should be extremely sporty, making it not interesting enough for potential 911 customers (lack of major comfort features, etc.)

    5. The name of the Cayman may also not be quite OK...we already know the fun making Gayman, for young men not really a good marketing decision. I would call the Cayman Porsche Sport or simply Coupe S or Coupe R but maybe some marketing genius finds a more appropriate name for it.

    Bottom line is: No matter how good the Cayman is, especially in the R flavor, it carries a lot of handicap for a Porsche.

     

    100 % agree on all points! I never ever would buy a Cayman as for the same money you can have an Carrera 6 months old. And lets face it "the" Porsche is a 911 - easy as that!

     

    Although I know the qualities of the Cayman -mid engine, light, extrem fun to drive, etc.


    Re: Cayman isn't a success

    That's funny I thought 'the' Porsche was the 356...


    --
    harrY 2006 Boxster S, Atlas Grey, Black/Black, 6spd

    Re: Cayman isn't a success

    harryo2b:

    That's funny I thought 'the' Porsche was the 356...


    I am inclined to believe that it is the 911. The 356 was developed at a time where a lot of shortages occured, otherwise Porsche would probably have chosen different components than of the Volkswagen.

    The 911, on the other hand, has been developed from scratch and under the influence of several important members of the Porsche family. The fact that this model was continued for a much longer time underlines it even further.


    Re: Cayman isn't a success

    I take some experience from the italian market (where I live).

    Tha Cayman had a huge success in its first 2 years after the market launch thanks to its wonderfull design (here never perceived too similar to the Boxster one).

    After this phase of "must-have-car" the Cayman models (all) have had some problem due to their price positioning: a good equipped Cayman S (Italians love cars with full equipment) costs so much as a good fresh preowned 997... choice it is easy!

    But people and Porsche fans/owners have always recognize the Cayman like a real Porsche just too near (pricely) to the 911.


    Re: Cayman isn't a success

     As someone who is potentially the prime "target audience" for the Cayman (30's, ascendant professionally, enthusiastic about cars), this is why I chose against it: 

    If I want a Porsche coupe, then I'll buy a 911. That's it. ...I am a believer of 'form follows function' and 'less is more.' For this reason, I'm attracted to the Porsche brand. I'm also a technophile at heart; the dynamic superiority of a mid-engined platform speaks to me. However, if I'm going to put some real money (i.e. 2 x or more the average cost of a commuter car) into a sports car, then I'll want the car with history *and* performance. The Cayman is just too conservative (styling, performance) for a sports car with no pedigree; I'd rather have a more exciting package such as an Audi R8. The 997 (aka "911," although I do not completely agree with the association) defines Porsche; the Cayman requires a badge to validate it.

    All this said, I bought a 987 Boxster S with all the options, because I do love Porsches,  and do believe that the mid-engined platform is dynamically superior and will define Porsche in the future. And in addition to all that, I did want a convertible. The Boxster simply *is* more the sports car than the 997 cab. However, the "911" coupe -with all its variants -wins over the Cayman, every time. That's (911) what I would buy if I didn't want a convertible.


    --
    2008 Boxster S


    Re: Cayman isn't a success

    As others have said, if the Cayman were priced cheaper than the Boxster, this debate wouldn't be happening IMO ... no one would be bamboozled by the price .... how a convertible version can be cheaper than the coupe version ...

    I also believe that no one would then question it's identity - it's a Boxster Coupe - and the price would reflect that - and PAG would not be forced to engage in silly marketing efforts trying (in vain) to convince people that the Cayman is a distinct model in its own right ... "Instantly Porsche" ... remember that tagline?

    The Cayman is a great car - no doubt - but the Boxster just offers more (since it's a convertible) at a cheaper price ... the only thing the Cayman can offer is better handling from a stiffer chassis ... but most people don't appear to be prepared to pay more for that ... and the sales figures reflect that IMHO.

    Also, despite all the 'Gayman' nonsense, the Cayman doesn't seem to me to be as attractive to female buyers ... whereas, with the Boxster, although the majority of buyers is still male, there is a significant minority of buyers who are female. And that too is reflected in sales figures IMO.


    --


    RT Moderator 
    - 997.1 C2S GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm sports suspension/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen collection


    Re: Cayman isn't a success

    Interesting to note is that fact, that there seems to be a common notion as to "the cayman is a great car, no doubt, but...." - Porsche had nearly the same situation in the 90s when the 968 CS came out. Ok, it was a desperate move to keep the 968-series up and running, but when you talked to people on track days, the majority said: "the 968 CS is a great track car, no doubt , but...". I think Porsche has the same (marketing) problem Nissan has (at least in Germany) with the GTR - identifying the "face of the man / woman behind the wheel" - currently, I feel, the buyer of a Cayman always needs to justify herself / himself to others, something I have never heard / experienced with a 911 so far... and my first porsche was a 944 S2...


    Re: Cayman isn't a success

    Funny fact: When I was looking for my first Porsche more than 13 years ago, I actually fell in love with a 968 CS. The sales person didn't have one in stock but a very attractive (extremely low price for this car) brand new but previous model year 993 Targa.

    I wasn't too much into the 911, actually couldn't care less, especially since I had outran several 911 in the past in my BMW M3 Coupe and Lancia Delta HF Integrale but the sales person insisted that the 911 is the only true Porsche, so I went for it. 

    A test drive wasn't possible, I badly needed a new car (M3 was sold), so I bought the 993 Targa without even driving it before. What a huge mistake, when I first drove the car (remember: I was still used to the 286 hp M3 Coupe, which was a milestone at that time regarding high power sports cars...power-wise and price-wise), I hated it. Not that I didn't like it, I hated it. It felt like an old car, it drove like an old car, it handled like an old car, horrible. After a while I started getting used to it and I kind of liked the sound of the engine and the direct steering but everything else was kind of disappointing, I wasn't surprised that Porsche was in financial trouble. Things changed for me with the 996: I wanted to give Porsche another (and last) try, so I went for the first 996 Carrera on the market. What a huge difference: It finally felt and drove like a modern car but unfortunately it was one of the most unreliable Porsche I ever owned. 

    Long story short: The Cayman is a good Porsche but...well ...but it is no 911. Unfortunately every bit of this says: I want to be a 911 but I didn't eat enough vitamins or my parents didn't invest too much time and money into my education...whatever. The Cayman needs it's own identity but I doubt it is going to happen like it is now and with this name. Why not call the Cayman 356 again...or any other famous number from Porsche's past? This could actually make a difference. They also need to change the roof line, make it look less 911-ish.

     


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW


    Re: Cayman isn't a success

    RC:

    Long story short: The Cayman is a good Porsche but...well ...but it is no 911. Unfortunately every bit of this says: I want to be a 911 but I didn't eat enough vitamins or my parents didn't invest too much time and money into my education...whatever. The Cayman needs it's own identity but I doubt it is going to happen like it is now and with this name. Why not call the Cayman 356 again...or any other famous number from Porsche's past? This could actually make a difference. They also need to change the roof line, make it look less 911-ish.

     

     

    RC, let's assume that Porsche put exactly the same engines in the Cayman as in the 911 but offered the Cayman  without many of the standard items in the 911 (Xenon, PCM, leather,LEDs, alcantara roof, auto  a/c, 19" wheels etc) so as to sell it at say 12K-13K Euro less than the 911.

    Also assume that the name was changed and the Boxster,  remained with the same lower engines.

    From your experience with cars what would be the effect on sales of the Cayman vs. 911 vs. Boxster?


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: Cayman isn't a success

    I can talk about Germany only (It is kind of mentality thing): Porsche could put a 450 hp GT3 RS engine into the current Cayman and I still think it wouldn't be a huge success.

    The problem with the Cayman is...identity. People associate the 911 with the Porsche sports car. If the Cayman would be something else, not a sports car, it would probably sell better.  I actually think that the name Cayman would have been more appropriate for the upcoming smaller SUV, the "Cajun". 

    The 911 can not be "beaten". The only Porsche sports car which could, could have more success than the 911, is the rumored GT based on the Panamera.

    How could Porsche re-design the Cayman to fit better in the model range? I don't have a clue. I would change the look (again...roofline), I would change the front and rear lights (no more semi-Boxster look) and I would reduce comfort features (optional) to lower weight further. Price tag should be under the Boxster price tag.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW


    Re: Cayman isn't a success

    RC:

    I can talk about Germany only (It is kind of mentality thing): Porsche could put a 450 hp GT3 RS engine into the current Cayman and I still think it wouldn't be a huge success.


     

    At least, Porsche could further continue to make the Cayman more sportive - I mean, the Cayman R is a step into the right direction, though with the marketing of a "55 kg weight saving programme" quite a failure. I have not yet come across any Cayman R in my area where AC and PCM is not included. Further, I would promote the Cayman officially to a motor sport car - in Italy a Cayman cup is up and running, two or three years ago the Porsche Club Germany was about to initiate a cayman club sport series and I understand in the US there are some (prepared) Caymans running in some series...what about giving the Cayman R the engine of the late 997 S, promote it to a Cayman RS and price it higher than the current Carrera S - and let it "officially" run in a (worldwide) Cayman Cup...I guess, I start dreaming and am in the need of a coffee...Smiley


    Re: Cayman isn't a success

    As said above, the pricing is ridiculous, I don't even know how thru sold any Cayman...

    Re: Cayman isn't a success

    Lars997:
     I never ever would buy a Cayman as for the same money you can have an Carrera 6 months old. And lets face it "the" Porsche is a 911 - easy as that!

     

    Not here in the UK! Smiley  I looked long and hard at that option, even if only to avoid the savage 1st year depreciation when buying new, ( I'd only buy from a Porsche dealer, to get the two year warranty), but the only 911 models, even non "S" versions, at anywhere near the price we paid for our Cayman were - and still are - over two and a half years old and /or high mileage in unpopular colours.

    When I suggested to several dealers about the option of a used PDK 911 for new Cayman S money I was literally laughed at by one dealer and politely told "not a chance" by three others. Smiley

    There is certainly no poor man's 911 image here that I've found with the Cayman, not that it matters to us but our Cayman S is certainly more admired than either of our previous Boxters were. Residual values are also slightly better than the equivalent Boxster.

     

     


    --
     

    Porsche Cayman S PDK Aqua Blue / Ocean Blue  (November 10) : Toyota Yaris D4D (Oct 10) 


    Re: Cayman isn't a success

     I think the Boxster has a better "profile" in Australia than the Cayman (pardon the pun).

    The Boxster is seen as a fun, entry level Porsche and the Cayman still seen as an "almost" 911. The 911 icon status is so strong that I doubt an equal performing Cayman would surpass it. The 911 looks more balanced and the extra seats are a big plus for many people.


    Re: Cayman isn't a success

    I'm fairly tall (6' 2", 1.89m) but my legs are proportionately longer than my torso so legroom is really important for me as a driver - otherwise I get cramp.

    This happens to me in a Boxster and a Cayman - I just can't get comfortable in them - especially over long journeys.

    Plus, my preferred driving position (in any car) is not to tuck my legs up and sit within close reach of the steering wheel.

    In a 911, the rear passenger footwells are crucial for me - I can slide the driver's seat much further back which means I can stretch my legs fully - it makes the 911 so much more comfortable for a long-legged person like me - especially on longer journeys.

    The 911 doesn't just offer rear seats - fold them down and you have a lot of load carrying space - the main limitation is actually ease of inserting/removing loads through the gap between the front seats or through the gap between the B pillar and the front seat backs. The Targa solves that - but I don't want a Targa.

    Sadly, neither the Boxster nor the Cayman work for me.


    --


    RT Moderator 
    - 997.1 C2S GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm sports suspension/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen collection


    Re: Cayman isn't a success

    easy_rider911:

    I'm fairly tall (6' 2", 1.89m) .....

    Sadly, neither the Boxster nor the Cayman work for me.

     Same here.

    I'm 6'4" (1,93m) and I need at least 4 more inches of room between the firewall and the foot well.  The lack of leg room is a complete deal breaker for me.


    --

    Mike

    2005 Carrera GT + 2008 Tesla Roadster +2010 Panamera Turbo + 2001 BMW Z8 + 1972 BMW 3.0 CSi +2009 Bentley Arnage T


    Re: Cayman isn't a success

    JimFlat6:

    Thanks.  But I dont think he knows much about Porsches or their strategic product marketing plan. 

    The Cayman exists because it sells for more and is cheaper to build than a Boxster. And obviously in that price range some people dont want a convertible. So, the solution was the Cayman.


    Right - simple as that Smiley

    From Porsche's POV the answer is easy: the Cayman is a (commercial) success if the combined Boxster + Cayman sales numbers are at least not lower than what originally has been budgeted for the Boxster alone (assuming that the Cayman generates a higher profit than the Boxster).

    Can't blame a (good) car for silly marketing Smiley

    @ DC: glad to hear that you're happy with the Boxster Coupé SmileySmiley

    Can't wait for the specs of the 981 - my better half is already becoming unpatient Smiley


    --

    public roads: Porsche 987 S Seal/Cocoa, toll road Smiley : Porsche 997 GT3 Arctic/Black


    Re: Cayman isn't a success

    Hi Porsche-Jeck, saw the 981 several times at one of my customers. Looks great. Looks great from the outside (most people will have a hard time to identify the new Boxster, if you can’t compare 987/981 they are of the same size) and the interior room will be a (big) improvement. I am happy to change my car in early 2013. And no, I am not allowed to take any photos


    Re: Cayman isn't a success

    The interior design will be a big improvement, not so much the interior room I'm afraid. 

    On the 991, things may look different though: Last time I checked, the back was more roomy and the seats better suitable for the rear passengers. Haven't seen the Cab though, would be interesting to know if they improved the 991 Cab rear room too, especially that weird seating position.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW


    Re: Cayman isn't a success

    Itsme:

    And no, I am not allowed to take any photos


    C'mon Itsme, I sign an NDA for you Smiley Thank you very much for the exciting infos Smiley

    Same size = good Smiley Improved interior = very good SmileySmiley

    Now the only things I need to know in addition is which engine will be available at what time and when it will be possible to grab a very early production car (against my habit I will have to go for an early car for some reason). SmileySmiley

     


    --

    public roads: Porsche 987 S Seal/Cocoa, toll road Smiley : Porsche 997 GT3 Arctic/Black


    Re: Cayman isn't a success

    Yes, interior design. Saw the car but wasn't allowed to sit in the car. Never saw a 987 and a 981 together.

    As a 987 owner I would say "similar size". But maybe I need new glasses, my eyes grow older

    Engine: don't know, no info. The exhaust looks like my exhaust, don't know if this is any valuable info.


     
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