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    Re: 458 Italia Supertest Thread Closed

    arakis:

    it is a well known fact that sport auto avd von saurma is heavily biast toward porsche, 

    This is nonsense - there are plenty of excellent test results for other brands.


    Re: 458 Italia Supertest Thread Closed

    arakis:

    so would someone explain to me how gt3rs found 1.2s on hokenhaim, and 13s on NBR. these are just exaples off the top of my head,

     

    So... how long do we want to hold that debate? There is no other magazine or individual that performs the same cohesive test. Both tracks are open to the public and for trackdays so go ahead and provide us with the correct numbers.

    I guess I can find you as many other odd laptime figures that show the exact opposite. As a matter of fact, just compare 997 GT2 / 430 Scuderia and 997 TT / F430. You will figure that all above magazines have been pretty coherent. If you still believe that SportAuto cis on Porsche´s payroll, read their complaints about the first 997 TT. Smiley


    Re: 458 Italia Supertest Thread Closed

    I know its imposible to expect a porsche fan forum to belive that sport auto is biast, so i wont try, but in the future, while you guys are bashing italian mags for posting faster times on italian cars, you should remember that german mags are just as, if not more, biast. I am kind of getting tired of everybody using sport auto as if its god send, and bashing everything else because it suits their views :D

    my view either all mags are biast or all mags are not chose one off these and stick with itSmiley


    Re: 458 Italia Supertest Thread Closed

    arakis:

    I know its imposible to expect a porsche fan forum to belive that sport auto is biast, so i wont try, but in the future, while you guys are bashing italian mags for posting faster times on italian cars, you should remember that german mags are just as, if not more, biast. I am kind of getting tired of everybody using sport auto as if its god send, and bashing everything else because it suits their views :D

    my view either all mags are biast or all mags are not chose one off these and stick with itSmiley

     You forget an important point: many here own/drive/know from intense personal experience many high-performance sports car brands. Many pepole here know exactly what the pros and cons of various high-performance cars are. These people (most of them) also believe that the Supertest is the best magazine benchmark available in the world Smiley


    Re: 458 Italia Supertest Thread Closed

    +1


    --
    Speed has never killed anyone, suddenly becoming stationary... That's what gets you.

    Re: 458 Italia Supertest Thread Closed

    arakis:

    [...] everybody using sport auto as if its god send [...]


    Show me any other magazine that does such extensive test in each month´s edition, incl. wet track performance, highspeed braking or drag and downforce being measured in a windtunnel... than we can talk! Other than that, there are, as you said above, so many variables on a car´s performance that I would never dogmatically limit my opinion on one test alone. As an indication of a car´s capability, the SA test is very good though. If you would read the complete article you would realize how much praise v. Saurma has for certain brands, especially Ferrari.

    Take a look at the favourite cars of Nürburgring regulars and you will realize that their preference is clear, even if they don´t read SA. Smiley
     


    Re: 458 Italia Supertest Thread Closed

    You forget an important point: many here own/drive/know from intense personal experience many high-performance sports car brands. Many pepole here know exactly what the pros and cons of various high-performance cars are. These people (most of them) also believe that the Supertest is the best magazine benchmark available in the world Smiley

    maybe because "most of them" are... germans? Smiley    Smiley

     


    Re: 458 Italia Supertest Thread Closed

    zaf52:

    You forget an important point: many here own/drive/know from intense personal experience many high-performance sports car brands. Many pepole here know exactly what the pros and cons of various high-performance cars are. These people (most of them) also believe that the Supertest is the best magazine benchmark available in the world Smiley

    maybe because "most of them" are... germans? Smiley    Smiley

     

     That is BS per se: there are many more German sports cars other than Porsche: Lamborghini, for example, Audi R8/R10, Bugatti, AMG SLS, etc. etc. Smiley Seems your argument is a bit weak Smiley 

    Second point: we have no statistics about the members posting here. I guess you did one properly - because I very much doubt that the German sports car owners represent a majority here. Please post your calculations/statistics to validate your claim Smiley


    Re: 458 Italia Supertest Thread Closed

    Ferdie:
    arakis:

    so would someone explain to me how gt3rs found 1.2s on hokenhaim, and 13s on NBR. these are just exaples off the top of my head,

     

    So... how long do we want to hold that debate? There is no other magazine or individual that performs the same cohesive test. Both tracks are open to the public and for trackdays so go ahead and provide us with the correct numbers.

    I guess I can find you as many other odd laptime figures that show the exact opposite. As a matter of fact, just compare 997 GT2 / 430 Scuderia and 997 TT / F430. You will figure that all above magazines have been pretty coherent. If you still believe that SportAuto cis on Porsche´s payroll, read their complaints about the first 997 TT. Smiley

    a good approximation to the "correct" numbers you get by taking the (weighted) average of the non sportauto lap times for the cars in question. gt2/scuderia: excluding wet lap times and sportauto lap times we have: 5 comparable times- 3 of them go to the scuderia and two of them to gt2: the latter ones are of the italian auto magazine in balocco, which uses moccia (a porsche race driver) as pilot, tested the scuderia with >30 degrees air temperatures and auto magazine had to perform a several-cars makeup test few months after (in which the scuderia has been faster than carrera gt-the track record holder) to rectify.

    the second track in which gt2 has been faster than scuderia is top gear's: the videos are on youtube and anybody interested is welcome to check stig's scuderia still start, time it and compare with any (e.g. auto motor und sport) scuderia's acceleration figures...

    all in all, non sportauto lap times imply that scuderia is, on average, a bit quicker than gt2; certainly do not imply that gt2 is faster than scuderia.

    sportauto nring times: gt2 8 seconds faster than scuderia,                                                sportauto hock times: gt2 0.6 sec faster.

    even worse it gets with gt2 vs lp560: more or less on par in non sportauto lap times (12 of them!),

    sportauto nring times: gt2 21 seconds faster than lp560,                                                     sportauto hock times: gt2 1.6 sec faster.

    do these numbers suggest anything to anybody in this forum?

     


    Re: 458 Italia Supertest Thread Closed

    MKSGR:
    zaf52:

    You forget an important point: many here own/drive/know from intense personal experience many high-performance sports car brands. Many pepole here know exactly what the pros and cons of various high-performance cars are. These people (most of them) also believe that the Supertest is the best magazine benchmark available in the world Smiley

    maybe because "most of them" are... germans? Smiley    Smiley

     

     That is BS per se: there are many more German sports cars other than Porsche: Lamborghini, for example, Audi R8/R10, Bugatti, AMG SLS, etc. etc. Smiley Seems your argument is a bit weak Smiley 

    Second point: we have no statistics about the members posting here. I guess you did one properly - because I very much doubt that the German sports car owners represent a majority here. Please post your calculations/statistics to validate your claim Smiley

    claiming Lamborghini is german is a bit optimistic, i would say. claiming Bugatti owners are of any statistical significance among those writing in this forum AND claiming that sportauto is the benchmark of the magazines is.... even more optimistic, to say the least   Smiley.

    second point: it was you who considered those writing in this forum a statistically relevant pool to establish whether sportauto is considered a benchmark or not. this of course, in particular, implies that fellows here represent a randomized enough sample of countries in the world. please post your figures  supporting this claim Smiley.

    Strictly speaking, i am not debating whether sportauto is widely considered as a reliable magazine or not. it might very well be, indeed. this would only show how ignorant most of car enthusiats are, since this question is just marginally sujective....

     

     


    Re: 458 Italia Supertest Thread Closed

    MKSGR:
    arakis:

    I know its imposible to expect a porsche fan forum to belive that sport auto is biast, so i wont try, but in the future, while you guys are bashing italian mags for posting faster times on italian cars, you should remember that german mags are just as, if not more, biast. I am kind of getting tired of everybody using sport auto as if its god send, and bashing everything else because it suits their views :D

    my view either all mags are biast or all mags are not chose one off these and stick with itSmiley

     You forget an important point: many here own/drive/know from intense personal experience many high-performance sports car brands. Many pepole here know exactly what the pros and cons of various high-performance cars are. These people (most of them) also believe that the Supertest is the best magazine benchmark available in the world Smiley

    these people are not profesionall raceing drivers, and touch nowere near the limits of the cars, i don't mean to insult anyone. and most of them are porsche owners, I said most not all! this is rennteam after all and it is a fist and formost a porsche forum, even though i like the ferrari comunity here as well, i miss nick on ou side though
     


    Re: 458 Italia Supertest Thread Closed

    I did not want to comment debate above... BUT...

    Arakis, I know personally few members here from Germany that you are talking about-they own Ferraris and they love them. BUT, they are pretty objective in their subjectivity if you understand me. Your assumptions are totally wrong, sorry.

    Do you know what is HvS favourite sportscar that he tested in Supertests in last five years? You do not know? 430 Scud...

    Do you know why is Nick more objective lately? His wife drives 997.2 Turbo PDK Cabrio and Nick drives it occasionally. He now has full prespective about recent Ferrari and Porsche models.

    Here on rennteam most members that I know are true sportscar enthusiasts(and most of them wrote here they personal experiance about these sportscars). NOT brand biased fanatics.

    What if I told you that McLaren MP4-12C will be better and faster overall sportscar then 458 Italia? What you will call me then? Maybe a British fanatic? Come on! Be little bit more objective.


    Re: 458 Italia Supertest Thread Closed

    zaf52:
    Ferdie:
    arakis:

    so would someone explain to me how gt3rs found 1.2s on hokenhaim, and 13s on NBR. these are just exaples off the top of my head,

     

    So... how long do we want to hold that debate? There is no other magazine or individual that performs the same cohesive test. Both tracks are open to the public and for trackdays so go ahead and provide us with the correct numbers.

    I guess I can find you as many other odd laptime figures that show the exact opposite. As a matter of fact, just compare 997 GT2 / 430 Scuderia and 997 TT / F430. You will figure that all above magazines have been pretty coherent. If you still believe that SportAuto cis on Porsche´s payroll, read their complaints about the first 997 TT. Smiley

    a good approximation to the "correct" numbers you get by taking the (weighted) average of the non sportauto lap times for the cars in question. gt2/scuderia: excluding wet lap times and sportauto lap times we have: 5 comparable times- 3 of them go to the scuderia and two of them to gt2: the latter ones are of the italian auto magazine in balocco, which uses moccia (a porsche race driver) as pilot, tested the scuderia with >30 degrees air temperatures and auto magazine had to perform a several-cars makeup test few months after (in which the scuderia has been faster than carrera gt-the track record holder) to rectify.

    the second track in which gt2 has been faster than scuderia is top gear's: the videos are on youtube and anybody interested is welcome to check stig's scuderia still start, time it and compare with any (e.g. auto motor und sport) scuderia's acceleration figures...

    all in all, non sportauto lap times imply that scuderia is, on average, a bit quicker than gt2; certainly do not imply that gt2 is faster than scuderia.

    sportauto nring times: gt2 8 seconds faster than scuderia,                                                sportauto hock times: gt2 0.6 sec faster.

    even worse it gets with gt2 vs lp560: more or less on par in non sportauto lap times (12 of them!),

    sportauto nring times: gt2 21 seconds faster than lp560,                                                     sportauto hock times: gt2 1.6 sec faster.

    do these numbers suggest anything to anybody in this forum?

     

     I agree that the relative performance of GT2 Mk1 and Scuderia depends on the track (for example Scuderia is faster on Porsche's Leipzig track, GT2 is faster on HHR and NBR etc,). However, you make a serious mistake in implying that Sportauto is biased or something. These are two different things: which car is faster on which track - is Sportauto biased Smiley


    Re: 458 Italia Supertest Thread Closed

    zaf52:

    second point: it was you who considered those writing in this forum a statistically relevant pool to establish whether sportauto is considered a benchmark or not. this of course, in particular, implies that fellows here represent a randomized enough sample of countries in the world. please post your figures  supporting this claim Smiley.

     

     

     No, not quite: my point is that some people here have such a broad experience that they can much better than 99% of normal car fans tell you key facts about reality Smiley You can benefit a lot by just reading the opionion of those people carefully. These opinions carry more information than most "magazine tests" Smiley


    Re: 458 Italia Supertest Thread Closed

    zaf52:

    claiming Lamborghini is german is a bit optimistic, i would say. claiming Bugatti owners are of any statistical significance among those writing in this forum AND claiming that sportauto is the benchmark of the magazines is.... even more optimistic, to say the least   Smiley.

     

     

     While I don't share a single percent of what you write I would encourage you to continue writing anyhow... At least you bring some traffic to this thread SmileySmileySmiley


    Re: 458 Italia Supertest Thread Closed

    KresoF1:

    I did not want to comment debate above... BUT...

    Arakis, I know personally few members here from Germany that you are talking about-they own Ferraris and they love them. BUT, they are pretty objective in their subjectivity if you understand me. Your assumptions are totally wrong, sorry.

    Do you know what is HvS favourite sportscar that he tested in Supertests in last five years? You do not know? 430 Scud...

    Do you know why is Nick more objective lately? His wife drives 997.2 Turbo PDK Cabrio and Nick drives it occasionally. He now has full prespective about recent Ferrari and Porsche models.

    Here on rennteam most members that I know are true sportscar enthusiasts(and most of them wrote here they personal experiance about these sportscars). NOT brand biased fanatics.

    What if I told you that McLaren MP4-12C will be better and faster overall sportscar then 458 Italia? What you will call me then? Maybe a British fanatic? Come on! Be little bit more objective.

     Kreso, that is a perfect summary Smiley


    Re: 458 Italia Supertest Thread Closed

    Back to topic guys, sorry for deleting some of the unnecessary posts but things were getting out of hands. 


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW


    Re: 458 Italia Supertest Thread Closed

    yourself included,

     

    back on topic, I am sure the results will be fast, but I am also sure, the hokenhaim, and NBR times will be by far the worst compared to some porsche. btw, I belive nberry posted here that it was a good thing HvS posts near porsche factory numbers on the ring, and its normal, that on all other cars he goes 5-15sec slower then their perspective factory drivers? somehow this by itself is enough to prove that he pushec the porikes just a tad bit harder, but then again thats just my opinin, even if it is folowed by facts.


    Re: 458 Italia Supertest Thread Closed

    Just a hint for you-458 results are very, very good as I wrote few days ago. How good? Again, read between the lines-very, very good...


    Re: 458 Italia Supertest Thread Closed

    I wish you will tell us now, maybe the very very good results will bring some peace! Can't wait till 24th

    Re: 458 Italia Supertest Thread Closed

    KresoF1:

    Just a hint for you-458 results are very, very good as I wrote few days ago. How good? Again, read between the lines-very, very good...

     

    Perhaps you could share the straight line performance results with us. 

    Smiley

     


    --
    FERRARI RULES!!!

    Re: 458 Italia Supertest Thread Closed

    No, I wont tell you the results right now. I have some obligations towards my Motorpresse friend.

    BTW, for die hard Ferrari fans(which usually are 10-18 years old) Sport Auto results do not mean anything at all...


    Re: 458 Italia Supertest Thread Closed

    Why not keep this thread locked until the 24th ?


    --


    Re: 458 Italia Supertest Thread Closed

    OK. Seems to me that far too many people do not know how to read between the lines...

     

    Amazing results-faster then CGT and 997.1 GT2...

    Very, very good results-as fast as Scud or better...


    Re: 458 Italia Supertest Thread Closed

     

    like i said, if the car beats the gt2 997.1 on every other mag, and in this one it is slower, my prevus point stands, but to find that out will have to wait for all the raceing mags/shows to test it.

     

    as far as "very,very good" results, if the thing is as fast as, or faster then the scud, i am then verry impresed with the future of ferrari cars!


    Re: 458 Italia Supertest Thread Closed

    KresoF1:

    OK. Seems to me that far too many people do not know how to read between the lines...

     

    Amazing results-faster then CGT and 997.1 GT2...

    Very, very good results-as fast as Scud or better...

     The CGT and 997.1GT2 were 7.32 and 7.33. The Scud was 7.38.  

    If I am reading this right then the 458 is below 7.32. If true, then the Ferrari support did a marvelous job in setting up the car for the Ring or Ferrari in five years has improved the car substantially from the 430 which I believe did not break 7.50 at the Ring.Smiley


    --

     


    Re: 458 Italia Supertest Thread Closed

    Nick,

    Quiz...

    A. Is 458 Ring time 7.33min or better?

    B. Is 458 Ring time between 7.38min and 7.34min?

    C. Is 458 Ring time between 7.42min and 7.39min?

     

    Choose your answer....


    Re: 458 Italia Supertest Thread Closed

    Soon this discussion will be of little relevance, if the GT2 RS laps the NBR below 7.20, as rumoured.


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: 458 Italia Supertest Thread Closed

    actually i would have expected the italia to beat the gt2.1 no less.

    comparing how old the 997 paltform is to the new 458 just affirms porsche's superiority imo.

    while dct may not offer significant gains on the nbr, the 40 horses more the 458 has should hve helped.

    then again, what tires were on the 458 for the test ?

    nevertheless...kudos to porsche.

    gt2rs will hve the competition for brekfast.


    --
    Speed has never killed anyone, suddenly becoming stationary... That's what gets you.

    Re: 458 Italia Supertest Thread Closed

    reginos:

    Soon this discussion will be of little relevance, if the GT2 RS laps the NBR below 7.20, as rumoured.

     

    Do you regard the GT2 RS as a 458 competitor? I see it as a GTO competitor. Also, let's wait for tests in other tracks by non german and italian magazines. 

    Smiley

     


    --
    FERRARI RULES!!!


     
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