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    Re: New Cayenne - first impressions from Geneva (Wonderbar)

    I also love the 911 but the problem with minor modifications on the exterior, make the car "outdated" more faster...

    The Panamera grow on me so strongly that right now i like very much this car (well it could be a bit diferent on the rear...). Why? because first it`s a PORSCHE and second it`s a "fresh" design...

    Im also thinking if Porsche will make in future a Panamera Coupé, this maybe will be the real rival for the future of the 911... because if this car (991) will grow some few cm, they will positioning this car on a more GT class, that`s why i don`t see un easy future for the 911 it changes that are all on the inside... it`s time for someting more Revolutionary...

    And yes, this modell could die, only because they have (and will have) other range models that for a Porsche costumer could drop from a 997 from probably to future boxster or Cayman... or even to a future Panamera Coupé... with the 911 in the midle and without significant changes (especialy on exterior) there will be dificult days for the icon...

    Posche need´s un urgent plan for the future of this icon...


    Re: New Cayenne - first impressions from Geneva (Wonderbar)

    The 911 is an icon and it would be suicidal to change it significantly. The type of people who buy these cars don't generally like frills and don't care too much about spectacle a la Italia, and they don't like their cars to be surrounded by curious teenagers and other irrelevant bystanders everywhere they park. The shape looks very clean and very neat and most of all timeless.

    Similarly the Boxster formula has been a success for 15 years already and similarly it shouldn't be messed up.

    However, one model that Porsche should work harder to improve in appearance is the Turbo. To me most of its styling cues look incoherent and a bit of an afterthought. It's the worst 911 for looks IMO.


    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

    Re: New Cayenne - first impressions from Geneva (Wonderbar)

    Again - I emphasize that revolution is not called for. No-one (in their right minds) would like to loose the 911 basic design, or see  "frilly"  additions to this iconic design. However, I refuse to accept that redesigning the rear lights and/or introducing another shade of gray/silver is the extent to which design innovations can be made on this car.

    Because some would like the "evolution" to move a little quicker, they are not advocating the need for revolution.

    My sports-car argument was not understood (or perhaps I framed it poorly):  Even in GT racing (where many car shapes are "revolutionized" for maximum performance) the 997 RSR is looking a little "long in the tooth". That does not mean it doesn't look good or efficient. It's just beginning to look like yesterdays racing car.

     

    When I was growing up, the 911 was the stuff of dreams for little boys. If the model is going to continue to be the flagship of the Porsche range, it needs to fulfill that role. Unless of course if Porsche gives that role over to the 918. In that case, the 911 can remain as it is and eventually become a micro- niche car.


    Re: New Cayenne - first impressions from Geneva (Wonderbar)

    The cars MUST evolve but that is so obvious that it need not be discussed.

    No one wants to see the 911 disappear but, in order to survive, it must offer a clear value proposition, which I think it still does. However, I don't think that being an Icon or a true Classic is enough to guarantee this survival moving forward.

    Ultimately, and based on the current offering, there need to be three VERY distinct and clearly differentiated lines: The Boxster / Cayman; the 911; the Panamera 4-door / Coupe. The 918, although an incredibly interesting machine, needs to be viewed differently and on its own; it doesn't immediately fit the mix.

    The more differentiated these three lines are, the better their specific chance of success / survival. One of the problems is that the pricing difference becomes a bit fuzzy between the 3 lines, especially when all the possible Porsche options and variants are brought in to the mix. This is where it becomes dangerous and cannibalism starts to happen.


    --

    Slow In, Fast Out


    Re: New Cayenne - first impressions from Geneva (Wonderbar)

    Agree with Spyderidol--my hope for a more exciting exterior for the 991 is not a hope for revolution, but for "something more" than restrained evolution.  I intentionally stayed an extensive period of time at the Porsche display in Geneva, studying the new Cayennes, new 918, the Boxter Spyder, the Panamera--all alongside the new Turbo S.  TO ME, and this is my personal view, the Turbo S looked outdated, too simplistic, too plain.  The rear wing is too small in proportion to the car, and--like the side air ducts--looks like an add-on.  (The light blue color didn't help display power and sportiness either).  

    As I compared all the cars, it began to occur to me that the 991 design, without altering the iconic look, could use more curves over the front and rear wheel wells.  The new 918 has these characteristics, as do the Boxster Spyder and (to some degree) the new Cayenne.  If you look at the side photos of the 918, and imagine incorporating some of the over the wheel arches "swells" into a new 991 design, that's a bit what I am talking about.  The new car would have more "muscularity" , and IMHO better reflect the performance and technology underneath.  I think such a design addition could be done tastefully, not abruptly, and in fact bring the 991 more in line with the design cues of the more recent Porsche models.  

     


    Re: New Cayenne - first impressions from Geneva (Wonderbar)

    Wonderbar:

    The rear wing is too small in proportion to the car, and--like the side air ducts--looks like an add-on.  

    As I compared all the cars, it began to occur to me that the 991 design, without altering the iconic look, could use more curves over the front and rear wheel wells.  The new 918 has these characteristics, as do the Boxster Spyder and (to some degree) the new Cayenne.  

     

    Like I said before, different markets (people), different tastes.

    Personally, I would prefer not to have ANY wing on the 911 Turbo. I hate wings and with modern aerodynamics, you can make a car pretty safe at high speeds even without a wing.

    I remember seeing a couple of 911 Turbo or 911 Carrera in the US, some of them had the rear wing/spoiler raised...at very low speeds. Not my taste, sorry.

    The Boxster is considered in Germany more of a women's car, so it isn't a good example. The Boxster Spyder is one of the most horrible products Porsche has in it's model range, speaking of showing off. I don't like it at all.

    The new Cayenne is a different story but it still isn't what I actually wanted (not expected) from Porsche. The new Cayenne looks sporty and mean but it doesn't scream "Porsche". Can't explain it but it has a similar effect on me like the Panamera. My father even didn't recognize the Panamera to be a Porsche, he thought it is a japanese car. Smiley

    Porsche takes the US market very seriously and all products get a thorough review by PCNA before introduced. Even during development, they talk to PCNA to make sure that the design is accepted by US customers. Since Germany is the second largest market for Porsche, things are very complicated. We like our Porsches less "obvious" and showing off, we like them actually "simple". This is why the Cayenne maybe got in trouble over here, it simply wasn't the "light" and "fast" tradition Porsche was standing for anymore.

    In Germany, the 911 was always the "subtle" sportscar, everybody knew it but it didn't attract attention enough to be offensive. Germans love that about the 911, this is why it was a very successful business car.

    Porsche needs to start to offer different products for different markets or at least adapt them. It will be more and more difficult to satisfy tastes and expectations in ALL markets. Impossible task.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (on the ship), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW


    Re: New Cayenne - first impressions from Geneva (Wonderbar)

    I'm with you on the Boxster Spyder - A exercise in bad taste.


    Re: New Cayenne - first impressions from Geneva (Wonderbar)

    I have seen the Boxster Spyder at the my local Porsche dealership yesterday, the roof layout looks comparatively solid for a mere canopy and most of the modifications over the regular car are certainly appreciable.

    I just cannot get over the feminine rearend introduced with the facelift, that ridicules the whole concept in my opinion and doesn´t fit stylistically or conceptually to that model. I do like the concept though...


    Re: New Cayenne - first impressions from Geneva (Wonderbar)

    The idea behind the Boxster Spyder is a good one, the execution however a bit hideous. 


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (on the ship), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW


    Re: New Cayenne - first impressions from Geneva (Wonderbar)

    RC:

    The idea behind the Boxster Spyder is a good one, the execution however a bit hideous. 

     

    +1 Smiley


    Re: New Cayenne - first impressions from Geneva (Wonderbar)

    RC:

    In Germany, the 911 was always the "subtle" sportscar, everybody knew it but it didn't attract attention enough to be offensive. Germans love that about the 911, this is why it was a very successful business car.
     


    I actually feel bad for Porsche.  A successful car company based in Germany, and probably a company that Germany is proud of.  With its cars and SUVs being relatively well accepted by most car buyers in the rest of the world, but not in its home country.

    You wonder if it is Porsche's fault, or the Germans?

    If someone drives a Cayenne Turbo and has to worry about what others will think about them, is there still any enjoyment and freedom in car buying?Smiley

     


    --

    Tim

    2010 997.2 GT3RS, January build;  2008 Cayenne Turbo;  2006 911 Club Coupe #13;  2006 BMW 530xi


    Re: New Cayenne - first impressions from Geneva (Wonderbar)

    This is a general problem in Germany, not only with Porsche cars.

    German society has changed a lot since the unification and I can't say it changed to something better. Social envy has increased a lot and since the financial crisis started, people are mad at almost everybody who earns a decent amount of money. 

    It is sometimes surprising that wealthy people over here don't seem (or don't want) to realize the social "impact" they cause and at the same time there are lots of less fortunate people who apparently think that everybody who is wealthy is a criminal and/or a tax evader.

    I don't like this social atmosphere in Germany at all, I always have to find "excuses" why I drive a nice car, why I have a nice house and so on.

    Just imagine you work with a customer and the customer suddenly asks you how much your car costs or what kind of income you have because you can afford such a car. They even look at my watch, my phone and what handbag my wife is carrying, this is insane.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (on the ship), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW


    Re: New Cayenne - first impressions from Geneva (Wonderbar)

    RC, the German psyche seems very complicated from what you often write!

    No wonder then,  that most of the renowned psychology and psychiatry names are German and most of the political thinkers and theorists of communism are German too.


    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

    Re: New Cayenne - first impressions from Geneva (Wonderbar)

    RC, I agree with the idea of no visible wing on the Turbo.  I wish Porsche could find a rising wing solution, where "Panamera like" the wing rises and spreads at higher speeds.  My comment about the current wing being proportionally too small was assuming that a wing was necessarily visible.  I prefer "stealth" as well...


    Re: New Cayenne - first impressions from Geneva (Wonderbar)

    Guys a 911 Turbo without the wing is not a 911 Turbo

    i whant a wing,and big

     

    world is various


    --
    997 TT, what a car/che'mmmmmaghena!!!

    Re: New Cayenne - first impressions from Geneva (Wonderbar)

    Wonderbar:

    RC, I agree with the idea of no visible wing on the Turbo.  I wish Porsche could find a rising wing solution, where "Panamera like" the wing rises and spreads at higher speeds.  My comment about the current wing being proportionally too small was assuming that a wing was necessarily visible.  I prefer "stealth" as well...

    There is some speculation that the 991 will have a version of the Panamera wing. Certainly would get my vote vs. the current accordion style on C2 & C2S.
     


    --
    2006 987S, Artic Silver, Cocoa, Cocoa Top 2006 Cayenne S Lapis Blue New York

    Re: New Cayenne - first impressions from Geneva (Wonderbar)

    The speculation could be right but I heard something even more surprising, speaking of hybrids.  

    I plan to go for a 991 Carrera S Cabriolet PDK to replace my wife's M3 Cab and my 997 Turbo but it remains to be seen in what price range the new 991 falls.

    Never have been a friend of huge wings, it simply just isn't me but to each his own I guess.

     


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (on the ship), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW


    Re: New Cayenne - first impressions from Geneva (Wonderbar)

    RC:

    This is a general problem in Germany, not only with Porsche cars.

    German society has changed a lot since the unification and I can't say it changed to something better. Social envy has increased a lot and since the financial crisis started, people are mad at almost everybody who earns a decent amount of money. 

    It is sometimes surprising that wealthy people over here don't seem (or don't want) to realize the social "impact" they cause and at the same time there are lots of less fortunate people who apparently think that everybody who is wealthy is a criminal and/or a tax evader.

    I don't like this social atmosphere in Germany at all, I always have to find "excuses" why I drive a nice car, why I have a nice house and so on.

    Just imagine you work with a customer and the customer suddenly asks you how much your car costs or what kind of income you have because you can afford such a car. They even look at my watch, my phone and what handbag my wife is carrying, this is insane.

    I can completely agree with this concerning Belgium.

    The P-car stays a lot in the garage (luckily the 996 cab was also black, so many think the p has now app 10 years...)

    The A5 (white one with carbonlook roof) is an Audi , and so accepted as a common car...

    The RR is named 8 years old and a very cheap 2-hand car because of the big engine...

     

    You have to explain everything to make it look  worthlessSmiley


    --

    ex 965 3.3turbo/ ex 993 targa / ex 996 cab /

    now 997S cabrio //  Audi A5 S-line 3.0tdi Quattro


    Re: New Cayenne - first impressions from Geneva (Wonderbar)

    RC:

     

    German society has changed a lot since the unification and I can't say it changed to something better. Social envy has increased a lot and since the financial crisis started, people are mad at almost everybody who earns a decent amount of money. 

    Just imagine you work with a customer and the customer suddenly asks you how much your car costs or what kind of income you have because you can afford such a car. They even look at my watch, my phone and what handbag my wife is carrying, this is insane.


    Unification might explain some of this. It is becoming clearer now.

    However, there is something that I don't quite understand: Your wife and yourself are professionals, have worked hard to get there, and are now reaping some rewards. Shouldn't that mean something? What do people expect, that you work for free?  Germany is still a capitalist nation. Smiley

    In North America, we expect our prefessionals to be well remunerated... even though it still isn't at the level of the entrepreneurs. I understand that you would not want to be ostentatious, but for people to question your accessories SmileySmiley


    --

    Slow In, Fast Out


    Re: New Cayenne - first impressions from Geneva (Wonderbar)

    RC:

    The speculation could be right but I heard something even more surprising, speaking of hybrids.  


    Please no, this is scary, I am not ready for a hybrid Smiley

    Too complicated and convoluted.


    --

    Slow In, Fast Out


    Re: New Cayenne - first impressions from Geneva (Wonderbar)

    interesting topic.

    FFaust, i think RC was talking about a hybrid wing for the next TT, which leads me to believe they have already copied McLaren's little nose hole that is operated by the driver.


    --

    indeed shifting is ancient technology - so is a fuel burning engine..  I happen to like both :) 
    _____________________________________________________________________
    1984 BMW 323i 5spd 2.3L 141 hp (105 kW) More door. Black on black (parting out) 
    1986 BMW 325e 5spd 2.7L 121 hp (172 lb·ft) Le Mans Blau on Tan leather.
    1986 BMW 325is 5spd 2.5L 168 hp (164 lb-ft) White on Tan leather (parted out) 
    2005 Ford Focus S, 5spd 2.0L 136 hp (120lb-ft) CD silver on grey (sold)
    1986 Porsche 944, 5spd 2.5L 150 hp (168lb-ft) champagne gold on grown leather. (sold)


    Re: New Cayenne - first impressions from Geneva (Wonderbar)

    Atzporsche:

    i
    FFaust, i think RC was talking about a hybrid wing for the next TT, which leads me to believe they have already copied McLaren's little nose hole that is operated by the driver.

     

    Nope, I wasn't talking about the wing. Smiley Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (on the ship), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW


    Re: New Cayenne - first impressions from Geneva (Wonderbar)

     OK , so now we know that  there will be a hybrid 991.

    Question: - Will it have that "little" magic button for overtaking?


    Re: New Cayenne - first impressions from Geneva (Wonderbar)

     Hybrid like Cayyenne S Hybrid...or more like 918?


    Re: New Cayenne - first impressions from Geneva (Wonderbar)

    FFaust:

    However, there is something that I don't quite understand: Your wife and yourself are professionals, have worked hard to get there, and are now reaping some rewards. Shouldn't that mean something? What do people expect, that you work for free?  Germany is still a capitalist nation.

     

    To me, at the end it is still the difference between status and success. Germany has had its fair share of wealth in the past and acquiring status symbols hasn´t been much of an issue as long as you worked for it.

    Certain circumstances, such as the unification, unemployment rate in certain regions and workforce from neighbouring former communistic countries, have made it more difficult for the average person to obtain this "status". In the US on the other hand I have experienced people to be totally fine with their state of living, certainly with an aim to look beyond but not connecting their housing situation or mode of transport with their position in society.

    I want in no way defend above shown notion, merely explain why cars such as the Panamera or Cayenne are perceived differently here.


    Re: New Cayenne - first impressions from Geneva (Wonderbar)

    Ferdie, not sure that I fully understand. Are you saying that hard work leads to success BUT that success does not necessarily bring status?

    Would status = right to own

    If this is correct, then who in your society has status? Or, if  you prefer, is there anyone for whom it would be socially acceptable to own expensive "stuff"?

    I can somewhat understand the perception that you allude to but it is confusing because the Panamera and Cayenne, as symbols of German success, should be embraced by the population as accomplishments of Germany on the international forum... unless German success is taken for granted and therefore simply expected.

    As a Canadian, I am thrilled whenever I see success by one of ours, be it Bombardier, Cirque du Soleil, Michael J. Fox or even Celine (well, not a fan, but you get the point). But then again, maybe some Canadians, myself included, have an inferiority complex so our successes are particularly sweet (remember that hockey game that delayed a flight )


    --

    Slow In, Fast Out


    Re: New Cayenne - first impressions from Geneva (Wonderbar)

    Sorry if it didn´t come across clearly, did not intend to hijack this thread with that particular topic so only gave a brief comment.

    Luxury items in North America, such as expensive clothes, cars, journeys or housing, are a display of success. In Europe, it is a display of acquired social status. Whether justified or not, I sense that many people are affected by that phenomenon and, since lacking perspective to achieve higher goals on their own, share a certain resentment towards richer people (due to Germany´s education pattern to shape highly skilled but usually specialized workers, many people feel reluctant to change profession at a certain age, I sense that versatility within one acquired education in North America can be bigger). So if one steps out of line and, for example, drives a car that is much bigger than his profession or status allows people might look odd at you.

    I met a hotel owner that did not only remove the badge on his V12 7-series but also changed exhaust tips, kidneys and other trim elements to make it look like the smaller model. He told us in private because we were extensively debating cars with him. Smiley

     


    Re: New Cayenne - first impressions from Geneva (Wonderbar)

    Thanks, I think that I understand the resentment that you mean


    --

    Slow In, Fast Out


    Re: New Cayenne - first impressions from Geneva (Wonderbar)

    RC:
    Atzporsche:

    i
    FFaust, i think RC was talking about a hybrid wing for the next TT, which leads me to believe they have already copied McLaren's little nose hole that is operated by the driver.

     

    Nope, I wasn't talking about the wing. Smiley Smiley

    oh wow are you serious? Not too sure how i feel about that. I had hoped for a flat 6 4.0L in the 991 carrera S. please don't tell me all engines will be ruined with hybrid crap. I can accept a hybrid 911 version (barely) 


    --

    indeed shifting is ancient technology - so is a fuel burning engine..  I happen to like both :) 
    _____________________________________________________________________
    1984 BMW 323i 5spd 2.3L 141 hp (105 kW) More door. Black on black (parting out) 
    1986 BMW 325e 5spd 2.7L 121 hp (172 lb·ft) Le Mans Blau on Tan leather.
    1986 BMW 325is 5spd 2.5L 168 hp (164 lb-ft) White on Tan leather (parted out) 
    2005 Ford Focus S, 5spd 2.0L 136 hp (120lb-ft) CD silver on grey (sold)
    1986 Porsche 944, 5spd 2.5L 150 hp (168lb-ft) champagne gold on grown leather. (sold)


    Re: New Cayenne - first impressions from Geneva (Wonderbar)

    RC and others, what is it about the Boxster Spyder you don't like? I love it as do 99% of people I know. The roof does get some criticism from those in colder climate or unstable climate like the UK. I acknowledge that although I personally love the concept of this roof and living in Australia and habit a few other cars also mean it isn't a cocern for me. Btw, I've driven it and it is sensational. Sharper steering than the Boxster S, much more tied down suspension. Go drive one and don't just take my word for it. I see it akin to what the GT3 is to the 911. Back to the Cayenne. I am now warming to the looks which I admit I didn't like initially. The car doesn't arrive here for another 4-5 months so I can't wait to see it in person. I could very well trade the X5M in for one in 18 months or so, which should mean any initial issues have been ironed out. Only issue is that I will have to buy the turbo in order to match the level of performance of the X5M, and the turbo is a lot more than the X5M. :(

     
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