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    GT3/GT2 demand (or apparent lack of demand)

    Saw couple of new GT3's on ebay from SF dealers in blk/seal gray essentially looking for a home (at probable significant discount to MSRP). Have also heard GT2 resale values are pathetic. Given I consistently hear how both GT3/GT2 are phenomenal from a hard-core driver's point of view, why do they seem to suffer a lack of buyer base vs 360CS (which is selling at $25-30K above MSRP in secondary mkt)? Is this only a silly US phenom.....or does 360CS win the marketing and resale value war in Europe as well? I know 996TT's weak resale value excuse is the high production numbers, but I thought GT2/GT3 have F-car like limited production numbers to help prop up their resale values....should be interesting to see where CGT resale values settle out in next 6-12 mos.....

    Re: GT3/GT2 demand (or apparent lack of demand)

    I think you may be mis-reading the situation.

    I picked up my GT3 yesterday in the Bay Area, and I think the Dealer would have given me money not to take it. There's a strong demand for the car.

    It is only the "stupidily" optioned cars that sit, because they represent poor value.

    We all read about poor GT2 values, test it and try to buy one to see what the dealers will really let it got for. Their values are getting stronger. Often the reality is very different from the myth perpetuated on these boards.

    A year ago the dealers let the GT2 go because they didn't know what the floor on the car was going to be. Now they know, and thus they're holding out for the price. There is one at Newport and they won't deal even though any number (too many people, including me ) have tried to buy it a a bargain basement price. The respect and desire for this car is growing mightily. In the interests of full disclosure, I own one so consider the potential bias.

    Re: GT3/GT2 demand (or apparent lack of demand)

    Quote:
    cnc said:
    I think you may be mis-reading the situation.

    In the interests of full disclosure, I own one so consider the potential bias.



    cnc,

    Maybe you just know what you are talking about!

    Re: GT3/GT2 demand (or apparent lack of demand)

    Quote:
    cnc said:
    I think you may be mis-reading the situation.

    I picked up my GT3 yesterday in the Bay Area, and I think the Dealer would have given me money not to take it. There's a strong demand for the car.

    It is only the "stupidily" optioned cars that sit, because they represent poor value.

    We all read about poor GT2 values, test it and try to buy one to see what the dealers will really let it got for. Their values are getting stronger. Often the reality is very different from the myth perpetuated on these boards.

    A year ago the dealers let the GT2 go because they didn't know what the floor on the car was going to be. Now they know, and thus they're holding out for the price. There is one at Newport and they won't deal even though any number (too many people, including me ) have tried to buy it a a bargain basement price. The respect and desire for this car is growing mightily. In the interests of full disclosure, I own one so consider the potential bias.



    The GT3 is a great car for a particular type of sport car enthusiast. One magazine stated it was the best Porsche model. The problem is there are not that many enthusiast of that kind.

    My neighbor has a son who is races Porsche's. I true fanatic. I saw him drive up in a black GT2 and I asked him whether he bought it. He indicated his friend bought it for $130,000 Y2002. I told him it was a great price and how did he get it so cheap. His response:

    "Because its probably one of the highest OVERPRICED cars around." That my explain why Porsche is sending less than 50 of these cars into the US.

    He loves Porsche but is realistic and very grounded when talking about value.

    BTW, the car had euro pipes on it and I must admit it almost sounded as good as my Ferrari.

    Re: GT3/GT2 demand (or apparent lack of demand)

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    BTW, the car had euro pipes on it and I must admit it almost sounded as good as my Ferrari.



    Yeh Nick, and the GT2 also performs almost as well as your Ferrari.

    Re: GT3/GT2 demand (or apparent lack of demand)

    Like I said the myths are perpetuated as realities!

    Do you ever notice how it's always somebody who knows somebody who bought one (3rd party, never the 1st party).

    Let's see some real statistics on what is being paid by customers for these cars.

    The GT2 is not nearly as soft as it was 12 months ago. E.G. An 03 could be had for dealer invoice, and for the properly equipped 04 today the dealer will barely move of invoice despite all the protestations of the wannabe buyers (including me ) who tell him he should know better. Guess who's seeing all the potential demand and activity..the dealer.

    I guess it's true in the car business that there's an ass for for every seat..and funny how that brought to mind the "loud' and inane Ferrari comment.

    Re: GT3/GT2 demand (or apparent lack of demand)

    Quote:
    cnc said:
    Like I said the myths are perpetuated as realities!

    Do you ever notice how it's always somebody who knows somebody who bought one (3rd party, never the 1st party).

    Let's see some real statistics on what is being paid by customers for these cars.

    The GT2 is not nearly as soft as it was 12 months ago. E.G. An 03 could be had for dealer invoice, and for the properly equipped 04 today the dealer will barely move of invoice despite all the protestations of the wannabe buyers (including me ) who tell him he should know better. Guess who's seeing all the potential demand and activity..the dealer.

    I guess it's true in the car business that there's an ass for for every seat..and funny how that brought to mind the "loud' and inane Ferrari comment.



    Sounds to me like the mkt for GT2/GT3 is fairly illiquid/lumpy where resale value really varies based on region of country, time of yr, colors, etc. But net, net it appears that resale or secondary mkt value of GT2/GT3 is more variable and probably weaker than that of 360CS which seems to be more firmly and consistently selling at 10% premium to MSRP in secondary mkt (for car w/delivery miles). IOW, in best case scenario, has anyone seen GT2/GT3 w/delivery miles recently selling at 10% over MSRP? Isn't this best "apples-to-apples" comparison of relative resale mkts for these cars? (I realize resale value doesn't necessarily represent which car is better driver's car, etc.)

    Re: GT3/GT2 demand (or apparent lack of demand)

    I think I know the Porsche market pretty well. I know nothing about the Ferrari market other than I've always considered I could never afford one, not in "absolute dollars" but in "value dollars". The after sale costs always seemed out of whack, they were catering to egos as opposed to drivers... and the local dealer was caught trying to sell a stolen one. I guess I just subscribe to good Germanic values, I leave the Ferraris to to other asses..mine belongs in a Porsche, since I subscribe to the value proposition, reasonable cost and every day reliability.

    Mais,,a chaque son gout.

    I hope this is a Porsche forum, not somewhere that certain types of Ferrari owners have to come to justify their purchases and assuage their egos. At the prices they pay Ferrari should provide an exclusive outlet.

    Re: GT3/GT2 demand (or apparent lack of demand)

    Quote:
    fritz said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:
    BTW, the car had euro pipes on it and I must admit it almost sounded as good as my Ferrari.



    Yeh Nick, and the GT2 also performs almost as well as your Ferrari.



    I finally found a picture on the internet showing Nick in his Ferrari.

    Re: GT3/GT2 demand (or apparent lack of demand)

    ROTFLOL
    /uploads/36963-anim_rofl2.gif

    Re: GT3/GT2 demand (or apparent lack of demand)

    Quote:
    cnc said:
    I think I know the Porsche market pretty well. I know nothing about the Ferrari market other than I've always considered I could never afford one, not in "absolute dollars" but in "value dollars". The after sale costs always seemed out of whack, they were catering to egos as opposed to drivers... and the local dealer was caught trying to sell a stolen one. I guess I just subscribe to good Germanic values, I leave the Ferraris to to other asses..mine belongs in a Porsche, since I subscribe to the value proposition, reasonable cost and every day reliability.

    Mais,,a chaque son gout.

    I hope this is a Porsche forum, not somewhere that certain types of Ferrari owners have to come to justify their purchases and assuage their egos. At the prices they pay Ferrari should provide an exclusive outlet.



    Oh my, talk about being defensive. It is common knowledge that the GT2 values have tanked.

    Look at the ads in Autoweek and you will find the prices substantially below MSRP. May issue, page 32 2002 GT2 70 miles asking $159,000 MSRP $185,000. (Correction the same car is now $152,000 June 7 issue). The only support level for the GT2 is Porsche acknowledging the marketing failure of the car and deciding not to sent many to the US.

    For someone to claim he knows Porsche prices and not be aware of this indisputable fact leaves me salivating over the propect of selling Porsche's to you in the future.

    As for my ego and value of my car I paid 200,000 for my 2004 Spider. I can get $240,000. That my friend is value. What do you think you can get for your GT3 once you drive off the showroon floor? You better hope you can find a buyer that that knows as much about Porsche prices as you do.

    Re: GT3/GT2 demand (or apparent lack of demand)

    Nick,
    How come you paid so much for you 04 Spyder?
    And someone really offered you $240,000? It's quite an old model bby now I would have thought.
    Gorgeous car though! Are you getting the new sport exhaust form the factory? If you are, looking forward to hear how you compare it to the Tubi.

    Re: GT3/GT2 demand (or apparent lack of demand)

    Guys, don't buy GT3s!!!!!!! Its better for current owners! We don't want to see them too much around!

    Re: GT3/GT2 demand (or apparent lack of demand)

    Quote:
    Captain Bady said:
    Guys, don't buy GT3s!!!!!!! Its better for current owners! We don't want to see them too much around!



    You are absolutely right. Now if only Porsche would catch on.

    Fanch, the Spider's in the US remain a hot item. The lowest price for 2004 I read in ads was $235,000. Mine is a Feb. 2004 delivery and will get more. I cannot discuss my exhaust on the internet but I assure you it sounds marvelous.

    Re: GT3/GT2 demand (or apparent lack of demand)

    To be balanced, I have heard F cars (360/Enzo only; 575/456 are F's resale value dogs) enjoy substantially better resale/secondary mkt value in US vs Europe. Cost of ownership of 360/Enzo can be much lower than expected if one is "old money" enough to get one from dealer at MSRP....given the strong resale values. Admittedly, P wins points w/its much cheaper maintenance costs vs F. However, net, net given P's steep relative depreciation, ownership costs over 1-2 yrs for MSRP 360 vs 996TT/GT2/GT3 or Enzo vs CGT may be surprisingly similar (or F may even look like the frugal buyer's choice). Again, many drivers love 360/911/Enzo/CGT equally but differently.....and many have both brands (as well as Lambo) in their fleets....but many of these same buyers are financial types who also like to measure performance or driving pleasure/ownership cost dollar.

    Re: GT3/GT2 demand (or apparent lack of demand)

    I've seen many threads on this board stating that the GT2 is heavily overpriced. Bearing in mind that the least Ferrari, being arguably inferior in performance, costs 50 grands more than Porsche's top of the line sportscar, it's a bargain.

    Nick, seize the chance sell your Spider and get the GT2!

    I'm sure that the board wouldn't tease you about your former faux pas.

    RG TL

    I wish every car were a GT2/3. :-p

    Quote:
    Captain Bady said:
    Guys, don't buy GT3s!!!!!!! Its better for current owners! We don't want to see them too much around!



    What would be the problem if every single car sold in the world was a GT3 and you saw them coming and going every single day? You'd still be driving a phenomenal car. What else matters?

    Stephen

    Re: GT3/GT2 demand (or apparent lack of demand)

    Quote:
    cnc said:
    Like I said the myths are perpetuated as realities!

    Do you ever notice how it's always somebody who knows somebody who bought one (3rd party, never the 1st party).

    I guess it's true in the car business that there's an ass for for every seat...



    and the ass is?


    i have bought 3 and sold 2 GT2's. they are not firming. as i predicted last november, 03's have now fallen into the US$140k's, last year one could get a new 02 from a private party for 140 and a new 03 from a dealer for 150 - actual sales data.

    my slate 03 with 4k miles is worth 145-147 retail 138-140 wholesale today. of course gt3 seats, teq. bar and fikses would add 5 to that.

    the red 02 gt2 mentioned above that has been in autoweek [for over one year!!!!] is vastly overpriced. i spoke to the guy when i bought my SY 02 for 140 cash in may 03. his car is now worth at best 125/130 w/r, red is very hard to sell. he refuses to face reality... as many sellers do

    no one was foolish enough to buy an 04 to flip, so they're all at the dealers and artificially supported at window. once a private 04 sells, i expect it to be in the 160's at most.

    they are great performance deals at these prices. they were overpriced at window. but also the general erosion of porsche exclusivity as a truck maker and the huge volume they do now damages prices.

    i've been looking at the "exclusive" cars as an alternative stradale and gallardo, and if you DRIVE them 10-12k per year as i do, it's insane to purchase one, as you'll get hammered on resale. GT2 remains the one supercar you can pound the sh.t out of every day, heavy miles and it just goes.... and goes and doesnt break and cant really depreciate

    Re: GT3/GT2 demand (or apparent lack of demand)


    So what are the dealers selling the "new" 04 GT2 for, actual transaction price, assuming MSRP of $194K?

    Re: GT3/GT2 demand (or apparent lack of demand)

    Quote:
    Tim said:
    Nick, seize the chance sell your Spider and get the GT2!




    Don't do it Nick! Stay with your 360.

    The GT2 is for real sportscar enthusiasts.

    Re: I wish every car were a GT2/3. :-p

    Quote:
    FixedWing said:
    Quote:
    Captain Bady said:
    Guys, don't buy GT3s!!!!!!! Its better for current owners! We don't want to see them too much around!



    What would be the problem if every single car sold in the world was a GT3 and you saw them coming and going every single day? You'd still be driving a phenomenal car. What else matters?

    Stephen



    Matters when I want to change it with another sports car....!
    I like spending but don't like throwing away money!

    Re: I wish every car were a GT2/3. :-p

    Quote:
    Captain Bady said:
    Matters when I want to change it with another sports car....!
    I like spending but don't like throwing away money!



    Your loss but my gain. Presumably, with production of GT3's in Model T Ford quantities, the car will be a hell of a lot cheaper than it is now. Imagine a GT3 readily available from every dealer for only US$20K ... heaven!

    I'd even agree if it was available in any colour you wanted so long as it was black.

    Stephen

    Re: I wish every car were a GT2/3. :-p

    Quote:
    FixedWing said:

    Your loss but my gain. Presumably, with production of GT3's in Model T Ford quantities, the car will be a hell of a lot cheaper than it is now. Imagine a GT3 readily available from every dealer for only US$20K ... heaven!

    I'd even agree if it was available in any colour you wanted so long as it was black.

    Stephen



    Hehehehe....nice one

    I can't answer you for the rest because your point doesn't correspond to reality !
    May be if we all had GT3s , its performance will be normal, so we need something better...

    Re: I wish every car were a GT2/3. :-p

    Quote:
    Captain Bady said:
    I can't answer you for the rest because your point doesn't correspond to reality !
    May be if we all had GT3s , its performance will be normal, so we need something better...



    Why does it need to correspond to reality? In fact, if it did then surely the question would be moot. We're obviously talking "what if?" :-)

    But your point on performance hits the nail right on the head. In absolute terms, the performance of the GT3 is incredible. I could be satisfied with it. So could you. But if every little grandma out there was doing her grocery shopping then would it then be inadequate? In other words, is performance measured in absolute terms or relatively?

    Stephen

    Re: I wish every car were a GT2/3. :-p

    relative to evolution of human being? don't you think so?

    Re: I wish every car were a GT2/3. :-p

    Quote:
    Captain Bady said:
    relative to evolution of human being? don't you think so?



    Don't know. But I do know that most of us wouldn't want to be passed by grandma with her shopping bags piled up on the passenger seat.

    Stephen

    Re: I wish every car were a GT2/3. :-p

    Quote:
    is performance measured in absolute terms or relatively?




    Performance is certainly measured in absolute terms but our perception and enjoyment of that performance is subjective and relative. But, it's not necessarily relative to our neighbor's car, although it could be, and by my reading of these forums, often is. Our enjoyment of the performance may also be relative to our other life experiences and not related to comparisons with what others have.

    I agree with you Stephen, if everyone drove GT-3's, we would all be driving great cars, and some of us would be enjoying it immensely. If grandma wants to pass me, that's great. We'll have a good race because I know her car is no faster than mine. Plus, I admire grandma for her sporting nature. Good for her.

     
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