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    Re: REPORT: Porsche facing dire times

    Spyderidol:

     

     

    100% in agreement! Very sad indeed.

    Even more sad that those idiots who engineered this collapse are still there running things!

    From I can understand Porsche is in financial coma and sustained by technical means.


    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

    Re: REPORT: Porsche facing dire times

    PORSCHE PRESENTS ITS NINE-MONTH INTERIM REPORT

     

    Stuttgart. Today, for the first time, the Porsche Automobil Holding SE, Stuttgart, is presenting an interim report, which includes the reporting figures for both the Porsche and Volkswagen Subgroups. The VW figures are from the first quarter of the current 2009 fiscal year, Porsche has reported on figures from the first nine months of its fiscal year (August 1, 2008 to April 30, 2009).

     

    Overall, the Porsche Group sold 1,405,584 vehicles in the period under review (three months for VW, nine months for Porsche). In the first nine months of the current fiscal year 2008-2009 (July 31), the Porsche Subgroup was unable to escape the general downward trend that has impacted the automobile industry worldwide. Sales fell by 27.6 percent to 53,635 vehicles compared to the same period last year.

    Sales in the Porsche Group, including the reported three-month figures from VW, totaled 28.4 billion Euro. In the Porsche Subgroup, sales decreased 15 percent down to 4.6 billion Euro.

    When looking at the individual models in the Porsche Subgroup, the 911 experienced a sales decline of 18.2 percent, down to 20,254 units. Sales of the Cayenne dropped 25.1 percent, down to 24,689 vehicles sold. Sales of the Boxster model, including the Cayman, plummeted 46.7 percent, down to 8,692 units. The reason for the heavy declines experienced by the three models is change in the model of the mid-engine sports car; the new vehicles have been on the market only since February 2009.

    A look at the distribution of sales worldwide shows that no region has remained untouched by the strong downturn in the automobile markets. In Germany, sales in the Porsche Subgroup fell in the first nine months of the fiscal year by 18.7 percent, down to 7,685 units, the decline in North America was 30.1 percent with 17,597 vehicles sold. In the other regions of the world, the Porsche Subgroup sold 28,353 units or 28.1 percent fewer vehicles than the year before.

    In total, 1,312,293 vehicles were produced in the Porsche Group. In the Porsche Subgroup, 59,609 vehicles rolled of the line in the first nine months of the fiscal year, this is 25.5 percent fewer units than last year. In Leipzig, 26,192 units of the Cayenne model were produced. This represents 26.4 percent less than during the same period of the last fiscal year. Already 296 units of the new Panamera have rolled off the production line. Sales of this model will begin in September 2009. At the Zuffenhausen factory, the decline in production of the 911 dropped 18.4 percent to 21,722 units. The production of the Boxster model sank overall by 36.1 percent to 11,399 units. In Finland, the number of vehicles produced fell by 37.1 percent to 11,224 units. With this figure, it must be taken into account that the Boxster model has been partially produced in Zuffenhausen since February 2009.

    The Porsche Group (including Volkswagen) had a workforce totaling 376,780 on April 30, 2009. Without taking into account the Volkswagen Subgroup, Porsche was also able to create additional jobs in the first nine months of the 2008-2009 fiscal year despite the decline in sales. The number of employees on April 30 was 12,685, thus exceeding by 4 percent the figure recorded on July 31, 2008. Additional employees were needed mainly in the Leipzig factory and in the Services division.
    The Porsche Group’s earnings before taxes have risen considerably compared to the previous year. In the process, the operational earnings from the Porsche Group, not including the Volkswagen Subgroup, were below last year’s level in the first nine months. However, a high return on sales was still achieved. The non-operational earnings from share option transactions, which are geared toward cash settlements and included in the changes in the VW market prices initiated by Porsche, rose considerably. This was mainly due to the high price level of the VW original shares on April 30, 2009, compared to the same period last year. However, earnings before taxes were influenced by expenditures for the fourth model, the four-door Panamera Gran Turismo and the hybrid drive for the Cayenne. Furthermore, the rising refinancing costs have kept earnings down.

    In light of the continuing financial and economic crisis, the general economic conditions worldwide will remain difficult. It cannot be ruled out that the economic situation may even intensify. The Porsche Subgroup had already extended Christmas vacation by three days at the Zuffenhausen parent plant as a reaction to the economic crisis. Moreover, Porsche will have had a total of 21 lost working days by the end of the fiscal year.

    In addition, Porsche introduced a rigid savings program that involves a triple digit amount in the millions. The only projects that will remain untouched are those that are of critical importance to the existence and future success of the company. These include the market launch of the Panamera, the development of the hybrid drive and enhancements to the existing model series.

    [Source: Porsche]


    --
    Dedi La vita è troppo corta per non guidare italiano.....

    Re: REPORT: Porsche facing dire times

    andrea:

     

    In addition, Porsche introduced a rigid savings program that involves a triple digit amount in the millions. The only projects that will remain untouched are those that are of critical importance to the existence and future success of the company. These include the market launch of the Panamera, the development of the hybrid drive and enhancements to the existing model series.

     

     

    This statement is very suspect. I foresee little expenditure for Motorsport activities and on the development of a new supercar to succeed the CGT.


    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

    Re: REPORT: Porsche facing dire times

     

     

    Yes, that's the end of Motorsport I'm afraid.

     

    Re: REPORT: Porsche facing dire times

     

     

    Just as an after thought, I sincearly hope that the "rigid" savings program includes a 99% reduction on Wendy's exorbitantly infalted salary, which is certainly not of critical importance to the existance nor to the success of the company. 


    Re: REPORT: Porsche facing dire times

    No matter what positive contribution WW made in the early years, IMO his position now is untenable. No excuse and no defence for what he has done.

    IMO they keep him there (for how long?) so as to show a sense of normality to the potential investors. As if these people who are studying the injection of so much capital are naive or stupid and they don't understand!


    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts


    Re: REPORT: Porsche facing dire times

    bigonion:

     

      It's sad that this is even being discussed in this forum but it is a pretty big deal for Porsche drivers if Porsche becomes a division of VW, which is where this looks like it is heading. 

     


    Apart from WW's ego, why is it such a big deal if Porsche becomes a part of VW... so long as it's run as a separate division?

    After all, Ferrari has been 85% owned by the Fiat Group since 1969, but is still run autonomously.  Similarly so with Maserati.

    VW would be mad to swallow up Porsche and then integrate it into one entity.

    If VW apply similar tactics with Porsche as Fiat has, for so long, with Ferrari and Maserati, I don't see a major problem at the consumer end..

     

     


    --

    "Things turn out best for people who make the best of the way things turn out."


    Re: REPORT: Porsche facing dire times

    John H:
    bigonion:

     

      It's sad that this is even being discussed in this forum but it is a pretty big deal for Porsche drivers if Porsche becomes a division of VW, which is where this looks like it is heading. 

     


    Apart from WW's ego, why is it such a big deal if Porsche becomes a part of VW... so long as it's run as a separate division?

    After all, Ferrari has been 85% owned by the Fiat Group since 1969, but is still run autonomously.  Similarly so with Maserati.

    VW would be mad to swallow up Porsche and then integrate it into one entity.

    If VW apply similar tactics with Porsche as Fiat has, for so long, with Ferrari and Maserati, I don't see a major problem at the consumer end..

     

     

    A difference IMO is that VW Group have been building up Audi as a sports brand (TTs vs. 987s, R-series vs. 911) with strong Motorsport activity where Porsche also compete (ALMS, 24H races) and this is bound to lead to conflict of interest.

    They cannot (after all this effort and success) downgrade Audi to make space for Porsche and OTOH Porsche is not a 6.000 cars per year brand like Ferrari/Maserati that can be clearly above everything else in the VW Group.


    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

    Re: REPORT: Porsche facing dire times

    Given Porsche's iconic nature, similar to Ferrari, one would think it would not be overly VW-ized if it becomes an operating division.  VW has done amazing things with Audi.  But VW is a volume car producer and their ability (VW and others that is) to restrain the number of cars produced and guard exclusivity is not consistent.  Porsche has arguably been heading down that road anyway, but there is a big difference between the expansion into SUVs and a high-performance balloon, er... saloon, versus very broadly based common platforms, which is the cost/capital saving regime of choice at VW and most volume producers.   There are propensities to platform-share, so one could easily imagine Audi's and VW's built on the 911-Boxster platform.  Not good.                            

    At least based on the commentary implying savings down to the last pfennig (often companies verging on a BK sound like this, read the last missives of Lehman Bros or Worldcom and they sound unfortunately similar -  talking about savings at the smallest levels - like that would somehow ameliorate massive overleverage), this situation will come to a head fairly soon.  Were it to somehow drag on it may effect Porsche development years down the line, as many projects will surely be curtained or scuttled to save those pennies.


    Re: REPORT: Porsche facing dire times

    John H:

     

    Apart from WW's ego, why is it such a big deal if Porsche becomes a part of VW... so long as it's run as a separate division?

    After all, Ferrari has been 85% owned by the Fiat Group since 1969, but is still run autonomously.  Similarly so with Maserati.

    VW would be mad to swallow up Porsche and then integrate it into one entity.

    If VW apply similar tactics with Porsche as Fiat has, for so long, with Ferrari and Maserati, I don't see a major problem at the consumer end..
     

    It would be almost like asking Donald Trump to move in with Ivanka Trump's boyfriend Jared Kushner.

    Or asking the Queen of England leaving England and moving to the Royal House of Denmark.

    It's just about matter of principle, Porsche was and still is VW's largest shareholder, it and the government of Lower Saxony were the guardians for VW. The Porsche family do not want to see Porsche goes from parent company to subsidary.

    VW will never do the same thing as FIat as long as Piech is breathing. Fiat treated Ferrari as the crown jewel in the company, Piech loathe anything Porsche.


    Re: REPORT: Porsche facing dire times

    reginos:
    A difference IMO is that VW Group have been building up Audi as a sports brand (TTs vs. 987s, R-series vs. 911) with strong Motorsport activity where Porsche also compete (ALMS, 24H races) and this is bound to lead to conflict of interest.

     

    That is true but Audi does not really sell sports cars - the TT is a wannabe and the R8 is a slow starter (a son of a Lambo). If sense prevails Audi can continue to be a sports sedan division with a couple of entry-level sports coupes. After all PAG is planning an entry-level Boxster w/ an Audi engine... let that be a proper Audi and PAG continue with proper sports cars. While we are at that let's rebadge Panamera as an Audi.

    On the Motorsports front... well, Audi had its run and now w/ PAG, PAG should carry that flag. Let's just wish...

     


    --

    _________________________________________________________ 

    A. Dias --- 997.2S (ordered). Previous cars: Corvette C6,  996 C4.


    Re: REPORT: Porsche facing dire times

    Wow, watching the Porsche financial fiasco unfold is jaw-dropping. From a afar, the appearance of the financial division looks eerily similar to the over-leveraged brokerage firms (Bear Stearns, Lehmann Brothers & Merrill Lynch) just before their demise kicked off the world credit crisis. It's a shame that bad financial engineering is starting to affect the core company, itself, in the form of reduced R & D spending. 

    Perhaps the positive that I see in the anticipated Porsche/VW merger is the possibility that Porsche can focus entirely on premium sports cars, and leave the luxury SUV & saloon stuff to Audi.

    From a more global perspective, I'm under the impression that the automobile status quo is undergoing a palpable change, and will look decisively different five to ten years from now.  Brands previously thought special may be a little less so (Mercedes? Ferrari? Porsche?? I hope not but my gut says otherwise) and other brands previously in the gutter may be more special (Jaguar? Saab?). Most interesting will be the possibility of entirely new companies emerging to the forefront if some disruptive technology (Fisker??) or unconventional approach (minimalist Lotus??) changes the landscape; I bet that the last idea will fill the niche craving that defines the generations of car enthusiasts.


    --
    2008 Boxster S


    Re: REPORT: Porsche facing dire times

    I would not be so sure about Jaguar by Tata, but Saab might have a spot with the backing of the ecentric Koennisigg or whatever their named is spelled.

    Fisker needs a deep pocket backer to succeed, Lotus will always be there, however small their market share will be.

     


    Re: REPORT: Porsche facing dire times

    ..and now we have Daimler in on the game! Here


    Re: REPORT: Porsche facing dire times

    Spyderidol:

    ..and now we have Daimler in on the game! Here

    I thought Daimler were courting Aston Martin for a share. I don't know how realistic this scenario is but possibly the Porsche identity could stay more intact than with VW/Audi Smiley

    i remember that the Cayenne was originally going to be developed together with Daimler-Benz but Porsche pulled out because D-B demanded a shareholding in Porsche in exchange for the collaboration. Could things turn full circle?


    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

    Re: REPORT: Porsche facing dire times

    ..and then we have this article


    Re: REPORT: Porsche facing dire times

    It looks like the sale of Porsche AG to VAG is inevitable.


    Re: REPORT: Porsche facing dire times

    Too many rumours ,nobody knows the full truth.

    However, the various bidders appear to be biting their time until Porsche really goes down deep and it can be picked up on their terms. Let's see who will be there for the rescue (if anyone)!


    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts


    Re: REPORT: Porsche facing dire times

    My 2c is that one really cannot know what will happen to Porsche under VW's wing, but the risks are asymmetric to the downside.   Maybe it is treated with appropriate reverence, maybe not - realisitcally the best case is that things stay more or less as they are, right?   Maybe the average option price goes down a little.  All other outcomes would be incrementally worse -  more product and platform sharing with VW, cross-pollenization of sports car engineering and engine development, in the very worst case deep platform sharing such that there are Porsche and VW versions of what are underneath fairly much the same car.   This is not idle chatter.  It is not like VW has not done this with Audi/VW/Skoda platform-shares before.  The TT is a Bug is a Golf is a Jetta. The Tiguan is a Q5.  The Passat is an A6. The Gallardo is the R8.  Oh, the S6 and S8 have the R8 v10, or is that the Gallardo's v10.  Maybe a 4 cyl 911 might share a few thousand parts with a 2016 Bug on the next redisign instead of being a rounded A3, or is that a Golf, or TT.  The Cayenne is already just a Touareg with better components.    

    Who the heck knows but it is reasonably clear that risks of product mutation and mission creep jump many-fold if Porsche is no longer independent.  VW is a heavily unionized shop and arguably senior VW engineers would not want to earn less that comparatively junior Porsche engineers, even if this might be justified by their comparative skillsets.  What kind of job and product development shuffling does something like that create? Alternatively, as others are pointing out the desireability of being seen driving expensive high performance cars and sedans has taken a major turn south in the last 12 months.  It could be a passing thing but maybe standards need to be set lower.  How does VW react to something like that?  Are GT2s a thing of the past?  There can only be loose speculation right now but Pandora''s box is open.

    I  just like knowing that I drive a car that has very unique heritage, is engineered through one of the most distinctive and iterative processes in all autodom, does not change stylistically very often, and offers a legitimately unique driving character that one just has to experience to appreciate.  The fact that I get weekly thumbs up and nods at the valet and all that is just gravy.   EVERYONE knows Porsches are special, especially 911s, whether they are 2006 vintage or 1986 vintage.  Does everyone know Audi's are special? I like them too, but they aren't Porsches.


    Re: REPORT: Porsche facing dire times

    bigonion: You do make sense. Smiley


    --

    _________________________________________________________ 

    A. Dias --- 997.2S (ordered). Previous cars: Corvette C6,  996 C4.


    Re: REPORT: Porsche facing dire times

    You are wrong

    Q5 is not a Tiguan

    A6 is not a Passat

     

    Both, Tiguan and Passat, shares GOlf/A3 platform.


    Re: REPORT: Porsche facing dire times

    The upside could be that Porsche being the sportiest brand VW would have, they would push and potentiate that aspect of Porsche and use Porsche as their motorsport brand and tranfer their racing programs to Porsche, and limit Porsche to building sportcars (and prevent it from becoming another BMW as it was moving towards to), and in the end kind of like Fiat does with Ferrari. Then again Porsche going back to racing and putting all their efforts on building sportcars would be too good to be true


    --


    Re: REPORT: Porsche facing dire times

    Carlos - Whilst what you describe would be wonderful, it just won't happen under VAG. The transferal of their motorsport programs to Porsche is highly unlikely.

    The Audi LMP1 is now so ingrained and well funded, that it would essentially be like turning the clock back a decade , if it were transferred to Porsche.

    The current rules are made for Audi (pro-diesel) and not Porsche.

    Even if the 2011 rule change brings about equality between Gasoline powered cars and diesel powered cars, Audi will still have the option of choosing between the two (Porsche does not).

    Even if VAG "allows" Porsche to maintain a motorsport program, it will always play second fiddle to the Audi program.

    Porsche will be "allowed" to compete in the lesser classes (if the R8 does not compete or if proves to be quicker than the existing Porsche), but it will never be "allowed" to compete (on equal grounds) with the Audi product.

    At best VAG would "allow" a Porsche program if it proved to be profitable, whilst a full fledged VAG funded Audi program would flourish at a loss and written off as a "marketing" cost.

    Should Porsche be sold to VAG, expect to see a flourishing Carrera Cup series and little else.


    Re: REPORT: Porsche facing dire times

    Unless Audi decides to enter F1(or whatever it's called at the time) in order to compete against Mercedes and BMW. In this case the rest of the motorsport series would be vacant for Porsche.


    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

    Re: REPORT: Porsche facing dire times

    That is true, but again I cant see that happening in the near future.... unless some things change.

    1. F1 (or what ever it will be called) does not provide "relevance" to street going technologies. VAG (and especially Audi) have a vested interest in demonstrating the superiority and usefulness of their diesel technology to the buying public.  F1 regulations do not allow for this.

    2. Contrary to popular belief, F1 is quite restrictive (due to its rules) when it comes to innovative and diverse technologies.

    If , in the future, F1(or what ever it will be called after giving Smax a darn good spanking), does come up with a more "creative" set of regulations, then perhaps VAG can be attracted to joining in on the circus, but until then, I don't see it happening.

    On the other hand, assuming that VAG does develop a F1 program, one can safely assume that that program would have priority over all other racing programs (within the group) so Porsche would (once again) get the short end of the stick.

    This all goes back to Wendy's fateful decision to give up the Porsche LMP1 program in 1999 (for 2000 season) in exchange for the platform sharing opportunity for the Cayenne. It allowed Audi room to develop (at low cost due to lack of competition) their program , that has over the years been allowed to "occupy" Porsche's hallowed position.

    With every year that passes it will become more and more difficult for Porsche to come back (successfully) to the top class of Prototype racing, and thus loosing it's prime showcase for its technological superiority. (which even if non existant, could be marketed in that way)

    Wendy did'nt just give up a program. He gave up a whole way of comunicating (marketing) the Porsche product; and he gave away decades of hard earned heritage.

     


    Re: REPORT: Porsche facing dire times

    Ever line those cars up next to each other?  I have Passats, A6s, a Tiguan, and a Q5 all in my parking garage.  They respectively look like ringers for each other. 


    Re: REPORT: Porsche facing dire times

    WTF?

     

    Q5    4629mm

    Tiguan  4427mm

    A6 4928mm

    Passat  4765mm

     

     

     

    Q5    2807mm

    Tiguan 2604mm

    A6 2846mm

    Passat  2709mm


    Re: REPORT: Porsche facing dire times

     My understanding is that it began as Porsche vs Piech battle but as a result has turned into so much more.


    --

    Thanks, MJSpeed


    Re: REPORT: Porsche facing dire times

    It is impossible to know all the issues here, but I personally harbor no resentment about Weideking and Porsche's aggressive approach.  He and the Porsche management took a huge--and for a while incredibly successful--risk.  Seems to me that the unexpected world economic crisis sabotaged this strategy, not some decision to pull Porsche out of LeMans, etc. 

    Will Porsche be terminally damaged?  I very seriously doubt it.  Will
    Weideking take the fall?  Probably, but not because of his ineptitude.  Big time corporate managers live by the sword, and die by the sword.


    Re: REPORT: Porsche facing dire times

    Don't know what's happened,but yesterday and today Porsche' shares fly!


    --
    997 TT, what a car/che'mmmmmaghena!!!


     
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