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    2014 Austrian F1 Grand Prix in Spielberg

    It seems Rosberg's luck (with zero DNFs) exceeds the difference in ability between Hamilton and him. How many times will Hamilton have to keep winning just to overhaul the points differences that emerge from unreliability?


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    997.1 C2S GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen pickup, BMW Z4 2.5i Roadster Sterling Grey/Red


    Re: 2014 Austrian F1 Grand Prix in Spielberg

    easy_rider911:

    It seems Rosberg's luck (with zero DNFs) exceeds the difference in ability between Hamilton and him. How many times will Hamilton have to keep winning just to overhaul the points differences that emerge from unreliability?

    + 1 . I feel sorry for Hamilton . He deserves to be in front of Rosberg


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     997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm


    Re: 2014 Austrian F1 Grand Prix in Spielberg

    I'd never thought I'd say this but me too, you can't help but feel sorry for Hamilton this year.


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    Re: 2014 Austrian F1 Grand Prix in Spielberg

    Hamilton will win the title, if Mercedes continue to dominate. Driver luck swings both ways and Rosberg will have his share of bad luck too.

    However, Hamilton tends to overdrive often, instead of playing the tactical game of patience.


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    "Form follows function"


    Re: 2014 Austrian F1 Grand Prix in Spielberg

    My pre-season prediction still stands haha, I had picked Rosberg to win it all this year even when I like Hamilton better.

    This is like Senna vs Prost all over again. Rosberg is playing the part of Prost almost perfectly, including the dirty tricks. I just hope Rosberg won't copy Prost's infamous intentional crash to secure the title.


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    Re: 2014 Austrian F1 Grand Prix in Spielberg

    reginos:

    Hamilton will win the title, if Mercedes continue to dominate. Driver luck swings both ways and Rosberg will have his share of bad luck too.

    However, Hamilton tends to overdrive often, instead of playing the tactical game of patience.

    Which overdriving probably contributes to at least some of his reliability issues. In Montreal, they both had the same problem, yet Rosberg made it through the last lap, while Hamilton did not. Bad "luck" kept Rosberg from winning, but the same "luck" kept Hamilton from even finishing.

    Hamilton and Vettel remind me a lot of each other. 


    Re: 2014 Austrian F1 Grand Prix in Spielberg

    The explanation why Hamilton's brake problem proved terminal while Rosberg's did not was because Hamilton had a greater rear brake bias whereas Rosberg's car was set up to have more front brake bias. Hence Rosberg avoided rear brake failure and had more time to adjust brake bias even further towards the front.

    They both suffered the same MGUK problem, which was never resolved during the race. Both were driving with 160 bhp less than the rest of the cars. That's why the others caught them.


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    997.1 C2S GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen pickup, BMW Z4 2.5i Roadster Sterling Grey/Red


    Re: 2014 Austrian F1 Grand Prix in Spielberg

    easy_rider911:

    The explanation why Hamilton's brake problem proved terminal while Rosberg's did not was because Hamilton had a greater rear brake bias whereas Rosberg's car was set up to have more front brake bias. Hence Rosberg avoided rear brake failure and had more time to adjust brake bias even further towards the front. ...

    Right, but the reason they had different settings was that they have different driving styles.


    Re: 2014 Austrian F1 Grand Prix in Spielberg

    apias:
    easy_rider911:

    The explanation why Hamilton's brake problem proved terminal while Rosberg's did not was because Hamilton had a greater rear brake bias whereas Rosberg's car was set up to have more front brake bias. Hence Rosberg avoided rear brake failure and had more time to adjust brake bias even further towards the front. ...

    Right, but the reason they had different settings was that they have different driving styles.

    Yes exactly, different driving styles which lead them to want different set ups but that's different from overdriving Smiley


    --


    997.1 C2S GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen pickup, BMW Z4 2.5i Roadster Sterling Grey/Red


    Re: 2014 Austrian F1 Grand Prix in Spielberg

    easy_rider911:
    apias:
    easy_rider911:

    The explanation why Hamilton's brake problem proved terminal while Rosberg's did not was because Hamilton had a greater rear brake bias whereas Rosberg's car was set up to have more front brake bias. Hence Rosberg avoided rear brake failure and had more time to adjust brake bias even further towards the front. ...

    Right, but the reason they had different settings was that they have different driving styles.

    Yes exactly, different driving styles which lead them to want different set ups but that's different from overdriving Smiley

    Although, I think the physics of overdriving suggest that it's safest with more rear brake bias dialed in.


    Re: 2014 Austrian F1 Grand Prix in Spielberg

    Lol. Sorry for starting a new thread. I looked for this one but it had been dormant for long enough it dropped off my list of current threads.  Being homesick might have blinded me a bit. Wish I was there this weekend. 

    I don't feel sorry for Hamilton as it will not make him any quicker.  Guess I still recall how massa missed the championship after Glock let him by in the rain on the last lap in Brazil.  Go nico!


    Re: 2014 Austrian F1 Grand Prix in Spielberg

    apias:
    easy_rider911:
    apias:
    easy_rider911:

    The explanation why Hamilton's brake problem proved terminal while Rosberg's did not was because Hamilton had a greater rear brake bias whereas Rosberg's car was set up to have more front brake bias. Hence Rosberg avoided rear brake failure and had more time to adjust brake bias even further towards the front. ...

    Right, but the reason they had different settings was that they have different driving styles.

    Yes exactly, different driving styles which lead them to want different set ups but that's different from overdriving Smiley

    Although, I think the physics of overdriving suggest that it's safest with more rear brake bias dialed in.

    If a driver overdrives the car then increased rear brake bias may well help but one cannot necessarily argue that, just because a driver prefers more rear brake bias then he must be overdriving.

    Anyway, I think we're over-analysing this somewhat. The truth is that the rear brakes on all 2014 F1 cars AFAIK have been downgraded to save weight since some braking is achieved by the MGUK unit. When the MGUK units failed in both cars, all the braking burden fell on rear brakes that are no longer designed to handle the entire burden. The solution is just to ensure that the MGUK units don't fail again. That way, driving styles won't place too high a burden on the rear brakes again. Problem solved. I bet Mercedes has been making sure that the MGUK units are more reliable for this very reason and also so as not to lose 160 bhp either. The next few races will tell us whether they've achieved this once the replacement MGUK units have done some high mileage. It's no coincidence after all that both MGUK units failed almost simultaneously after numerous race weekends.


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    997.1 C2S GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen pickup, BMW Z4 2.5i Roadster Sterling Grey/Red


    Re: 2014 Austrian F1 Grand Prix in Spielberg

    easy_rider911:
    apias:
    easy_rider911:
    apias:
    easy_rider911:

    The explanation why Hamilton's brake problem proved terminal while Rosberg's did not was because Hamilton had a greater rear brake bias whereas Rosberg's car was set up to have more front brake bias. Hence Rosberg avoided rear brake failure and had more time to adjust brake bias even further towards the front. ...

    Right, but the reason they had different settings was that they have different driving styles.

    Yes exactly, different driving styles which lead them to want different set ups but that's different from overdriving Smiley

    Although, I think the physics of overdriving suggest that it's safest with more rear brake bias dialed in.

    If a driver overdrives the car then increased rear brake bias may well help but one cannot necessarily argue that, just because a driver prefers more rear brake bias then he must be overdriving.

    Anyway, I think we're over-analysing this somewhat. The truth is that the rear brakes on all 2014 F1 cars AFAIK have been downgraded to save weight since some braking is achieved by the MGUK unit. When the MGUK units failed in both cars, all the braking burden fell on rear brakes that are no longer designed to handle the entire burden. The solution is just to ensure that the MGUK units don't fail again. That way, driving styles won't place too high a burden on the rear brakes again. Problem solved. I bet Mercedes has been making sure that the MGUK units are more reliable for this very reason and also so as not to lose 160 bhp either. The next few races will tell us whether they've achieved this once the replacement MGUK units have done some high mileage. It's no coincidence after all that both MGUK units failed almost simultaneously after numerous race weekends.

    Brembo recently posted a video of the F1 braking system, indicating that the rear brakes are a brake-by-wire system to compensate for regeneration braking factor from the MGUK unit.  The interlocking systems with multiple modes and paths for failure reminds me of the scholarly research conducted by Charles Perrow on the failure of complex large-scale organizations.   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Perrow

     


    Re: 2014 Austrian F1 Grand Prix in Spielberg

    Hamilton doesn't learn from his mistakes. He doesn't realise that having a banker lap will save his backside if/when he screws up his other runs in Q3. It's rare to have such a great championship winning chance but he is gifting it to Rosberg.


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    997.1 C2S GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen pickup, BMW Z4 2.5i Roadster Sterling Grey/Red


    Re: 2014 Austrian F1 Grand Prix in Spielberg

    Could it be that Vettel may not be as good a driver as people thinks even with 4 World Championships? Now that he doesn't a have a dominant car even his rookie teammate is proven to be a faster driver.

    Hamilton will never learn, his  ego always gets in the way. And I LIKED that guy.

     


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    Re: 2014 Austrian F1 Grand Prix in Spielberg

    easy_rider911:

    Hamilton doesn't learn from his mistakes. He doesn't realise that having a banker lap will save his backside if/when he screws up his other runs in Q3. It's rare to have such a great championship winning chance but he is gifting it to Rosberg.

    After all these years you would think he would have matured more... 


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    Re: 2014 Austrian F1 Grand Prix in Spielberg

    Whoopsy:

    Could it be that Vettel may not be as good a driver as people thinks even with 4 World Championships? Now that he doesn't a have a dominant car even his rookie teammate is proven to be a faster driver.

    I think this season made it pretty obvious, it's not one weekend, its one weekend after another now... it's only that until now he always had a much superior car so no one could compete one to one with him and he could not be compared to his competition. And it's made even more evident now by the fact that his teamate is a rookie and who has come from another team, and inspite of all that has been consitently out performing Vettel from day one....


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    Re: 2014 Austrian F1 Grand Prix in Spielberg

    No World Champion, in recent years at least, has been as good a driver as people thought he was. It's interesting, in horse racing, everyone forgets about the jockey and the horse gets all the credit. In motorsport, they forget about the horse and the jockey gets all the credit.

    Not that Vettel hasn't shown himself a great driver, especially given the right circumstances -- for example, Monza, 2008 -- but, unfortunately, due to RBR's dominance in past years, it's been impossible to objectively judge his true abilities against other drivers. The current rules and cars, clearly don't suit his driving style, though, and he hasn't shown himself able to adapt. (Assuming of course, that there isn't something in his personal life, of which we are unaware, that has completely thrown him off tis season.)

    Hamilton suffers too much from both hubris and impatience, and he doesn't seem to have learned much about himself in all these years.


    Re: 2014 Austrian F1 Grand Prix in Spielberg

    There is no doubt Hamilton is the fastest current driver, he has the most raw speed and get the most out of any car. But his mentality is several steps behind and not really catching up. If only he would grow up. Even then he still need luck to be on his side in order to win the championship, as in he needs some DNF from Rosberg. 

    Rosberg seems to have the complete package this year, fast car, good enough speed, impeccable mentality and luck. That's a pretty hard combo to beat.

     


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    Re: 2014 Austrian F1 Grand Prix in Spielberg

    Whoopsy:

    Rosberg seems to have the complete package this year, fast car, good enough speed, impeccable mentality and luck. That's a pretty hard combo to beat.

    You are forgetting the most important thing... its not just "a fast car" its a car on another galaxy Smiley without the superiority of his car, Rosberg was just another driver till now, its Vettel/RBR all over again. The only reason he is leading over Hamilton is because Hamilton is making stupid mistakes and has had a looooot of bad luck.

    Good drive by Bottas, but again, his car was was on par withn the Mercs today, for Massa to finish fourth its must of been a great car Smiley so not that big of an achievement save for the fact that he is a rookie.

    Meanwhle Alonso drives the wheels of the Ferrari and manages to place a Ferrari on fith place and is 4th in the championship, 4 points behind Ric... on a Ferrari Smiley ... just look at Kimi's performance with the Ferrari, barely managing to ome 10th Smiley It was amaizng to see how easily Hamilton with the Merc passed Alonso's Ferrari on the first lap, it was like watch cars from two diffferent classes in LeMans Smiley

    Overall good to see the Mercs advantage not so big as before, though I suspect it was just due to the particularities of this track and the gap will grow back to huge again on the next GP's...

     


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    Re: 2014 Austrian F1 Grand Prix in Spielberg

    Whoopsy:

    Could it be that Vettel may not be as good a driver as people thinks even with 4 World Championships? Now that he doesn't a have a dominant car even his rookie teammate is proven to be a faster driver.


    I always said that in the past. One could already see that in the last four years, when why reason ever Vettel could not dominate the rest of the field. Now with a car not superior it's quite obvious.


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    The secret of life is to admire without desiring.


    Re: 2014 Austrian F1 Grand Prix in Spielberg

    Carlos from Spain:

    ... Meanwhle Alonso drives the wheels of the Ferrari and manages to place a Ferrari on fith place and is 4th in the championship, 4 points behind Ric... on a Ferrari Smiley ... just look at Kimi's performance with the Ferrari, barely managing to ome 10th Smiley It was amaizng to see how easily Hamilton with the Merc passed Alonso's Ferrari on the first lap, it was like watch cars from two diffferent classes in LeMans Smiley...

    Alonso is definitely the best driver in F1 today and it's sad to see him have to struggle so hard to finish in the middle of the points.

    Vettel, while he's still underperforming compared to his teammate when his car is reliable, seems almost cursed this season, as though he did something to offend the motorsport gods and they are handing down retribution.


    Re: 2014 Austrian F1 Grand Prix in Spielberg

    Indeed it's sad to see such a driver being wasted by underperforming cars, he just doesn't catch a break. Imagine what great battles he would give the fans if he had a minimally competitive car, he doesn't need the fastest car, that would be boring dice there would be no competition anymore, but imagine if Alonso had a Williams fir example this weekend... he would of given the Mercedes more than a run for their money and probably right up there with them in the championship.


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    Re: 2014 Austrian F1 Grand Prix in Spielberg

    It is Alonso's fault for choosing Ferrari. He didn't evaluate well.

    It is like Messi choosing Villarreal and then complaing he cannot win anything, although he is the best player.

    Alonso himself said that his underdog heroics bring him no joy. He would trade that kind of respect for more victories.

     


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: 2014 Austrian F1 Grand Prix in Spielberg

    Carlos from Spain:

    Indeed it's sad to see such a driver being wasted by underperforming cars, he just doesn't catch a break. Imagine what great battles he would give the fans if he had a minimally competitive car, he doesn't need the fastest car, that would be boring dice there would be no competition anymore, but imagine if Alonso had a Williams fir example this weekend... he would of given the Mercedes more than a run for their money and probably right up there with them in the championship.

    ...we had that exact situation  in 2007 and 2010.  Alonso in a competitive car. We know had happened.

    No doubt Alonso is a great driver, likely the most complete in current lineup. Though he is somewhat limited by his character. He was in a position to choose cars/teams he wanted and he messed it up. He could made McLaren his home. He could go to Red Bull. Also is dubious which feedback he is given to the team, considering that Ferrari is technacilly moving backwards that dramatic in recent years.

    Maybe its a consolation for fans, that guilty is always with others (Dennis, Ferrari engineering/strategy, Vettel/RBR/Newey...) so it can be asumed that this is only a part of the truth. I guess drivers as Lauda, Senna, Schu would know how to turn things into their direction.

     


    Re: 2014 Austrian F1 Grand Prix in Spielberg

    By the way, is it only me to mention, that this (natural) track is quite entertaining on TV !?!?  Simple layout with nice uphill / downhill sections, beautiful surrounding landscape and still with all the safety features nowadays required. I had fun yesterday not only following the "race", but also watching the drivers and their individual lines. So, I am looking forward to 2015...kiss


    Re: 2014 Austrian F1 Grand Prix in Spielberg

    Pretty funny how with 20/20 hindsight everybody seems to know which team is the fastest and which cars are competitive but if they were asked before each season which car will be theme most competitive, they'd have no clue, often race to race even they well be way off... yet they blame the drivers for not knowing that?  Please, nobody knows which team will be competitive and to make things worse, drivers can't change to the tram of their linking from season to season, their previous contract need to be up which happens from years at a time, and when they are free, there needs to be an open seat on the team the would like to go, which is often not the case. All you can do is choose a team with a good budget and a seat available and hope for the best in the following years...


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    Re: 2014 Austrian F1 Grand Prix in Spielberg

    kashmir:
    Carlos from Spain:

    Indeed it's sad to see such a driver being wasted by underperforming cars, he just doesn't catch a break. Imagine what great battles he would give the fans if he had a minimally competitive car, he doesn't need the fastest car, that would be boring dice there would be no competition anymore, but imagine if Alonso had a Williams fir example this weekend... he would of given the Mercedes more than a run for their money and probably right up there with them in the championship.

    ...we had that exact situation  in 2007 and 2010.  Alonso in a competitive car. We know had happened.

    No doubt Alonso did an amazing job at the wheel if it maid you think that he had a competitive car in 2010 compared to redbull... but reality is that he came to the last race of the season leading the championship because of his consistency and ability to take a car and drive it 110% in combination with Vettel's shortcomings that year, since the championship was his to take with the car he had. Unfortunately the Ferrari was so slow that it was impossible for a Ferrari to overtake a lotus on the only place you can overtake in that track, the straight and he lost the championship because of it.

    2007 is a difference story, he had the car to win, just that his team had other intentions, aka "lying Dennis" golden boy Hamilton, and McLaren made such a mess of it that they not only have away the championship (neither Alonso not Hamilton would get it) but were also immersed in one of the worry scandals of F1 for cheating... Ron Dennis at his best.

     


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    Re: 2014 Austrian F1 Grand Prix in Spielberg

    Sorry...all excuses. Racing is like life...about taking chances and making most out of it.  In 2010 Alonso went as championship leader to the last race. I doubt that a Lauda, Senna, Schu went for a pitstop changing tyres, just because another driver (Webber in that case) was doing so. They would always following their instict.

    Same with 2007. The Dennis thing is an excuse, McLaren let their driver go...even if they commit war to each other. Instead of starting a media battle, Alosnso should have focused on himself. Btw on top of that...Alonso left those points, which he was short to the title,  in Japan by spinning out during the race in wet conditions.


    Re: 2014 Austrian F1 Grand Prix in Spielberg

    No, excuses are what anti-Alonso fans are using, where is Vettel now that he doesn't have a superior to compete with?by now even Marko is criticising Vettel and the team is focusing on Ricciardo. Adrian Newey won the four championships not Vettel...  were is that "Kimi is going to crush Alonso in Ferrari"?... time puts everybody in its place I guess...

     

     


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