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    Carrera GT Test

    All tests that where made was with two persons and a full tank of gas.
    The weight of the production cars will be less than the press cars.(Don`t ask why.)
    Total weight will be 1430-1440kg incl A/C, Stereo and bigger battery.
    Conditions where not ideal at the testday.

    Look out for "Sport Auto Magazine Supertest".

    Re: Carrera GT Test

    I live in La Jolla and belong to the Del Mar CC.

    Re: Carrera GT Test

    Steve, you could not buy a new Spider from a Ferrari dealer.

    I admit that I want a car that is limited in production, looks sexy and has good performance. I do not race cars nor try pushing them to their limits on public streets. People die when that occurs especially with high performance super cars. If that makes me a poseur, I will gladly embrace that moniker.

    Re: Carrera GT Test

    Nick, you're right, they aren't a Ferrari dealer - yet. That should change in the next year or so at which time they could deliver a new 360 to me.

    I never said I like to push my cars to the limit on public streets. Maybe when I was young and dumb but these days I like to do that on the race track or autocross events. I don't do any wheel to wheel racing in my Porsches (I have in karts) but I have a helluva good time exploring their, and my, limits at those types of events. To me that's a large part of the enjoyment of the car. That's why I'm glad to see folks like Mike, and maybe Ben, that will do something similiar with a CGT and it won't just be a status symbol for them. They're my kind of car folks.

    Re: Carrera GT Test

    1) In my opinion, when the CGT debuts; you will not be able to but one at MSRP; because the orders have all been reserved with $50K deposits previously.You might get one over
    MSRP.
    2) The numbers are a bit dissapointing; because Porsche claims are ALWAYS conservative. The driver must have sucked, and the conditions had to have been wet. If not; lets
    see the next test numbers.
    3) I am glad that Mike Valentine has confidence in his driving ability; because; why shouldn't he? Does anybody really know his expertice? I know that I was in Leipzig driving a GT-2, and that I totally was dialed in to that car; and that with seat time, it would be the same in the Carrera GT. I think the GT
    will be even more predictable than the GT-2; with its midengine placement. And neither one has PSM !
    4) I don't care how fast that guy thinks the SLR is.....
    it's still hideous! And I guarantee it's lap times won't be close
    to the GT !!!
    Happy Halloween !
    Revvv

    Re: Carrera GT Test

    Quote:
    I live in La Jolla and belong to the Del Mar CC.



    Unless there is another 360 just like yours at your CC, then I have seen you crusing around more than once.

    Re: Carrera GT Test

    Steve it is a status symbol to everyone that buys it. Otherwise they could invest half or a third as much and modify an existing car with same if not better performance.

    Self denial regarding a car as status symbol is beyond my comprehension. If I hooked all of you up to a lie dector you all would flunk.

    BTW, if you are getting a 360 I congratulate you. You may never go back to Porsche.

    Re: Carrera GT Test

    Quote:
    Steve it is a status symbol to everyone that buys it. Otherwise they could invest half or a third as much and modify an existing car with same if not better performance.

    Self denial regarding a car as status symbol is beyond my comprehension. If I hooked all of you up to a lie dector you all would flunk.


    Nick, I didn't want you to think I agreed with your comments above, I just didn't feel like replying while traveling. Some people don't fit into your model of the Porsche and Ferrari owning world. They want to buy a car with a true racing heritage and drive it on the track to explore its potential. In my view to do otherwise is like buying a thoroughbred with a lineage of Kentucky Derby winners and using it to pull a carriage thru Central Park. Sure it's a horse but it's been bred for better things.

    If owning a Porsche somehow signifies status it's damn near the only thing about me that would do so. I dress in denim shorts, t-shirts or Hawaiian shirts and wear a $20 watch because to me that's what's comfortable. In seven years I've been persuaded to wear long pants twice because generally I don't give a damn if people think I look out of place in shorts. That aplies even if I'm dining at SF establishments like Harris' Steak House or Mortons of Chicago. They care more that I can pay than how I dress and I care more that they have damned good food than what it costs. That attitude carries over to my choice of cars. Having done the heavy modification route in the past it doesn't interest me anymore. I like GT3 because it has a direct lineage to Porsche's racing program and out of the box it's a damned capable car. I tip my hat, or I would if I wore one , to people that choose the CGT for the same reasons.

    And now I'm done commenting on this thread because we've wandered from the capabilities of the CGT to the rationalization behind owning one and that's obviously a subject for endless debate.

    Re: Carrera GT Test

    well put.

    Re: Carrera GT Test

    I do not doubt most people buy Porsche in part for performance. That said how does one explain not buying a Chevy Corvette Z06 which is half the price and probably would spank the GT3 as it has done to the TT? Or the Viper which is even faster? Today both of these makes have more racing heritage than Porsche. They have been the winners in all of their class of racing.

    I will tell you why. One is a Chevrolet and the other is a Dodge. Please don't tell to me about reliability yada yada. Their racing results have proven their reliability.

    Finally the fact you dress down and try to look out of place is an indication that subconsciously you like attention. If you did not like attention why would you drive around town in a car which will have a big wing its rear end? Let people know you are a racer?

    Steve,I will let you have the last word. Recognize it is all in good fun. But seriously, collective self denial among the human race has always been a mystery to me.

    Re: Carrera GT Test

    On the other hand, hard performance numbers are only part of the equation. While you can modify certain vehicles to obtain competitive performance, you can never replicate subjective feelings that have nothing to do with self image. Sound, styling, enjoyment of interior, customer service, driving feel, etc are all subjective. Driven a Z06 or Viper lately? It's completely different from a GT3! If Chrysler started selling rebadged SLRs tomorrow for $100k, then you might have a point.

    But I'm the type that might pick a GT over a 360 any day of the week (bit early to say as I've never driven the former). One is a Ford, and one is a Ferrari.

    Re: Carrera GT Test

    i've driven vipers and they could cut the accleration and braking times in half and i still wouldn't own one of those POS. the car is utter junk. it's hot, it's loud, it's huge, and is not remotely as balanced and predictable as a 911. i've not driven a Z06, and would like too. that said, the older vettes were just flat cruddy, and i hated the driving position and looking over that never ending nose. if i was a coupe driver, i would seriously have considered a Z06 though even though the interior is a disgrace.

    yep, i too am the kind of person that would consider buying a GT over a 360. it doesn't bother me at all that the ferrari killer (at least for four years straight after it came out) is a ford. in fact, i'd much prefer getting my automotive desires satisfied with american cars, but so far no such luck.

    Z06 better than GT3???

    I've driven a Z06, it's typically american, as in huge straight line, masive, faster than Turbo or GT3 I don't doubt that but it handles like crap and has no brakes, a Boxster is more fun on the track, much more fun, trust me!
    You can't compare the GT3 to the Z06, just like you can't compare the Turbo to the Z06, please...
    Haven't driven the Viper though so I won't say anything about that one.
    Fanch.

    Re: Z06 better than GT3???

    I'd have to agree with ben on this one...
    The Viper is fast but really is a POS. As far as the Z06 goes...how is it faster than a turbo? Straight line numbers don't even indicate this?
    Both cars however have the interiors of 20K cars.
    If we get into the semantics of interior than I can agree with going with the 360 because Porsche's interior is crappy when compared to Ferrari's. However the GT3 is more of pure racer.

    Re: Z06 better than GT3???

    In terms of desing, you're right, Ferrari is a bit "warmer" than Porsche but when it comes to material, oh dear, have you ever driven a 360? The interior is pure Fiat! With a special price for the japanese digital clock on the central mirror, man that must have cost at least Euro 0.50!!!
    Seriously, Ferrari interior quality is light years behind anything german, let's not even speak about the Corvette.
    But on the outside, I agree, they are the prettier car.
    Fanch.

    Re: Z06 better than GT3???

    A couple of years ago a test was performed conparing the TT to the Z06 in all apects of performance. Porsche had Hurley Haywood driving the TT and Ron Millen drove the Z06.

    The Z06 outperformed the TT. The GT3 performs close to the TT but not better. You reach your own conclusion. Your reaction is typically a European reaction.

    Re: Z06 better than GT3???

    Yes you're right American just don't know how to make sports cars, fact.
    Otherwise, you'd have a Z06 instead of the 360 Spider right!
    Just being a smart arse Nberry, sorry
    I still prefer europeean sports cars though, until the arrival of the sublime Ford GT that is.
    Fanch.
    PS: I still can't believe that a Z06 outperformed a Turbo though!!! but if it's true, it's true!

    Re: Carrera GT Test

    Corvettes and Vipers don't have more racing heritage than Porsche! That's laughable. They never have and never will. Just because the Porsche factory isn't racing doesn't mean Porsche has stopped racing. The GT3RS has won more races than both the Vette and Viper and on certain endurance races beat them!

    I've driven Vettes and Vipers and both are fast. They have terrible build quality. They have bang for the buck if you like straight line racing. A GT3 would take these cars on the track no problem. If you take money out of the comparo, you can't even compare those American cars to the 911s.

    Re: Z06 better than GT3???

    i think the main problem is that the porsche interior doesn't work on pictures... but if you sit in a 996, especially if the full leather option has been specced, you FEEL the quality.

    with the 360 is the other way round... the cockpit does look nice on pics but in reality you are disappointed because it looks and feels slightly cheap. even the leather. they have improved a lot from 355 to 360, but it's still no match for porsche interior finishing IMO.

    Re: Z06 better than GT3???

    I am getting a headache from reading all of the "rantings" and "trying to prove my point because I am right" replies.

    Performance is so subjective. We all have different preferences in driving characteristics and feel. We have individuals like nberry who try to prove a point that doesn't persuade. Dude, you can give me all the numbers that back up your arguement but little does it convey in the real world.

    So if I had a Miata MX-5, would you tell me that my car is not a quick car and I should invest in a Corvette Z06? Would you tell me that a Corvette performs better and provide me a whole list of information that will increase your case and claim? Define what you think performance is because from my understanding you are seeing it in terms of figures rather than how the cars feel and behave to driver inputs.

    Here are some Merriam-Webster definitions of performance that relate with driving:

    1 : the execution of an action b : something accomplished : DEED, FEAT
    2 : the ability to perform : EFFICIENCY b : the manner in which a mechanism performs <engine performance>
    3 : the manner of reacting to stimuli : BEHAVIOR

    The Miata is a small car but it can perform better than the Corvette Z06 because it fulfills those definitions. When I use to autocross, I would meet up with a regular who owned a Miata. The car executed every turn with accuracy and swiftness. Those are ideal for a quick car, am I right? Now how about reacting to stimuli? It followed every input without fuss. Opposite lock to throttle steering. So performance is not about numbers but a bigger picture, the communication between man and machine. I for one think the Miata performs better since it meets all the requirements to that definition while the undesirable Corvette Z06 can be purchased by other people who crave for American muscle rather than precision that most people associate with other cars such as the Miata or something built by Porsche.

    Sure they may be a publication that conducted a test between the Chevrolet and Porsche flagship cars but does it mean anything to us? I am confident that I will have a more easier time exploring the limits of the Porsche rather than the Corvette if I went to circuit. As for the GT3 being a lesser vehicle, please. The automotive world knows that GT3 is a fine machine and its abilities are harder to access but the end result is getting your blood pulsing and hair standing. Something that numbers on a piece of paper will never convey. There may be cars that are quicker than a Porsche 911 GT3 or a Carrera GT at a lesser price but let me ask you this, would the experience be the same from these lesser cars? Think about it. As for me, my wallet will allow me to purchase a motorcycle, which is more skill intensive, yet there will always be a place in my heart for Porsche.

    Re: Carrera GT Test

    Quote:
    I do not doubt most people buy Porsche in part for performance. That said how does one explain not buying a Chevy Corvette Z06 which is half the price and probably would spank the GT3 as it has done to the TT? Or the Viper which is even faster? Today both of these makes have more racing heritage than Porsche. They have been the winners in all of their class of racing.



    I remember we had a long long discussion on this issue around two years ago when the test has been published and I still think that test was pure BS.
    Here's something maybe you didn't know: GM flew in to Germany a US spec'd Z06 for a comparison to the (old) GT3. SPORT AUTO did that comparison test in Hockenheim and yes, the Z06 was slightly faster than the GT3 by a fraction(!) of a second.
    The Z06 was almost at the 996 Turbo level...in Hockenheim.
    Again: this was a factory prepped car imported to Germany just for the test because the Z06 isn't street legal over here (well, I wonder why...maybe because it didn't pass some endurance tests? ).
    At the Nuerburgring, things are different. The Z06 stands no chance against the (old) GT3 or even the 996 Turbo. And drive a Z06 for 5 minutes at top speed on the german Autobahn and you probably can wreck the engine (I did 309 kph or 193 mph(!) on the speedo in my Mercedes E55 limousine(!) this summer at an outside temperature of around 100*F for almost 5 minutes NONSTOP in bright sunlight and nothing wrong with my car).
    The Viper GTS was 3 seconds(!) slower than the GT3 or 996 Turbo in Hockenheim and as far as I remember more than 10 seconds slower than both on the Nuerburgring Nordschleife.
    We're always talking about stock cars, of course I can modify a Viper in such a way that it outruns even the Ferrari Enzo.

    The point I want to get to is: US cars are usually made for the US, german or italian cars are made for international customers. And this is a huge difference, not only regarding driving conditions but also regarding drivers. I do speeds over here in Germany (not only on the Autobahn) which most people in the US can't even do on the track. This is part of our automotive culture, as strange as it might sound. Not having a speed limit on certain streets might be one plausible reason. Same applies to other countries.

    And the best proof for what I say is actually the fact that german car manufacturers deliver US bound models with different suspension setups (usually more comfortable and less "spicy" to reduce the risk of a rollover or accident).

    Fact is: I owned a 996 Turbo for more than 3 years and there was NO car to be faster on the street or on the track. Sorry to say that but this is true. Nobody passed me (not that they didn't try... ). And I consider myself a good driver but not one like Walter Roehrl or HH. The 996 Turbo is a fantastic car in the right hands but can be very slow in the wrong hands. From my personal experience, people in cheaper cars usually have more racing experience and risk more. People track racing in expensive cars usually are more careful or don't have enough experience because they actually only want to show off their baby or just think that a fast car makes a fast driver. I don't know if this is valid for the US too but over here in Germany, it definetely is.

    Re: Carrera GT Test

    Watch speed channel and judge for yourself. In the recent past I listen to announcer's bemoan the fact the Porsches were outclassed and outgunned and how embarrassing it was to the badge. The Porsches were running in the slow class and were having difficulty keeping up.

    Yes I know the other cars had factory support while Porsche received very little. None the less their pathetic performance has to be part of their heritage.

    I do not dispute in the distance past Porsche had a sterling racing heritage. Today its reputation is one of good quality and performance which will drain your pocket book because of the notoriously bad resale value. However, it is comforting to know they remain the most profitable car manufacturer in the world

    Re: Carrera GT Test

    Quote:
    From my personal experience, people in cheaper cars usually have more racing experience and risk more. People track racing in expensive cars usually are more careful or don't have enough experience because they actually only want to show off their baby or just think that a fast car makes a fast driver. I don't know if this is valid for the US too but over here in Germany, it definetely is.



    From my experience instructing at Driver's Education events at race tracks in the US, it's absolutely true here, too. I think it's just a case of statistics.

    The really motivated (risk taking) drivers with a bunch of experience are somewhat rare, but show up in good numbers. The people able to afford very expensive cars are somewhat rare, but show up quite a bit as well. To be a simultaneous member of both groups and show up at the track event, too, is exceedingly rare. But it does happen once in a while.

    It's just the way the world's math works out.

    Re: Carrera GT Test

    Nick, you're talking about MODIFIED cars but I'm actually talking about STOCK cars.
    Of course it is much easier (and much cheaper too) to modify a US made car in the USA as it is much easier to prepare a German made car in Germany for the track. Or do US Porsche drivers have access to Porsche Motorsport parts and other exclusive parts available for professional racing only? Most Porsche drivers in the US do not, so they have to race with what they've got or get. And the worst part: some 3rd class Porsche Tuners in the US who claim wonders from their kits BS customers whereever they can. Money rules I guess.

    BTW: how many Ferraris get busted by Vipers and Corvettes?

    Re: Carrera GT Test

    Nberry, Sorry but you don't know what you are talking about. I watch Speed alot, I think that announcer was just venting about Porsche not racing in the top class. (Porsches were outclassed and outgunned and how embarrassing it was to the badge). (The Porsches were running in the slow class and were having difficulty keeping up.) First off Porsche is selling GT class racers to race in the lowest class(GT). They own this class and have WON Daytona 24HRs and SPA 24hrs OVERALL! Not to mention the ALMS championship and the FIA GT championship. Porsche has more consecutive win in the ALMS that any other mark including Audi.

    (None the less their pathetic performance has to be part of their heritage. )

    The GT3R/RS is so far from a pathetic performer its not even funny. I remember Lemans a couple of years back when the Factory Vettes had to stop in the pits to save their cars to the end. All the while the awesome 911 drove right on by to beat them. So much for pathetic performance and no heritage. Porsche has WON more sportscar races than any other mark in history. More Endurance races than anyone and no other mark even comes close! The 911 has WON more races than another car in history and hello! They are still winning races and championships to this day! Heritage is alive and well with Porsche. In 2005 Porsche will return with a factory effort to remind the nay sayers what the best is all about.


    Re: Carrera GT Test

    Not that I would necessarily buy one, but the 2004 Corvette Z06 lapped the Nordschliefe in under 8 minutes (I think it was 7:56 - same as GT3 MkI with Walter driving) with stock equipment and tires. They brag about this in company literature - they tuned the shocks this year at the Ring and really reduced laps times. Many owners of 2001-2003 Z06's have been retrofitting the 2004 shocks which supposedly are far better (only around $400 for all four). Not bad for $50k... The 2005 Vette (not Z06) is promised to have better performance than the current Z06 and the 2006 Z06 promises 500HP and better handling. I also think GM will use Brembos across its best performers (new Cadillacs and Corvettes anyways). They still don't feel as good as Euro cars, but the value is there.

    Re: Carrera GT Test

    Or, those who have much to lose just are being smart.

    I watched a souped up Honda take out a TT because of driver error and or poor equipment.

    Re: I believe your headache has clouded

    your mind.

    The discussion started on the issue of people buying cars in part because they are status symbols. Many on this board and elsewhere deny it. Thus the reason for bringing up performance and costs.

    Your example regarding the Miata illustrates my point perfectly. I readily admit that the badge means a lot to me. Though a Z06 can out perform a Porsche or Ferrari means little to me. I want performance, exclusivity and sex appeal.
    Those who state that only performance and reliability mean anything in their purchase are not being honest with themselves.

    Are you one of them dude?


    Re: I believe your headache has clouded

    Don't psychiatrists call that "projection"?

    Re: Carrera GT Test

    Grant,

    I too see a lot of talk in Chevy's literature about the Z06's Nurburgring tested supension. No where is there ANY talk about what lap time they got there. I've look around a bit and haven't had any luck finding any offical time for the Z06 at the Nurburgring. Chevy has made the Vette in Z06 trim a very fast car. I'd be very surprised though if Horst von Saurma could break the 8 minute mark at the ring with the Z06. Any help in finding an offical time would be great .Thanks

     
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