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    Re: Any hard objective facts comparing PCP and ste

    I do not agree. That article is relevant to a test car, not a race car or track driven car. Brake usage on street cars, no matter how hard you try, can not even approach to use on track.

    175,000 track miles? Where? Who? Certainly not the PDE cars. That would be an astonishing achievement, and clearly not backed up by the other article by Christophorous citing rotor replacement on cup cars. Certainly cup cars see nowhere near 175k miles, let along even 20,000 miles.

    I have no axe to grind, was a prior PCCB owner, may be again, but I'd prefer to have the facts out there rather than repeated intnet lore.

    Re: Any hard objective facts comparing PCP and ste

    Quote:
    frayed said:
    I do not agree. That article is relevant to a test car, not a race car or track driven car. Brake usage on street cars, no matter how hard you try, can not even approach to use on track.

    175,000 track miles? Where? Who? Certainly not the PDE cars. That would be an astonishing achievement, and clearly not backed up by the other article by Christophorous citing rotor replacement on cup cars. Certainly cup cars see nowhere near 175k miles, let along even 20,000 miles.

    I have no axe to grind, was a prior PCCB owner, may be again, but I'd prefer to have the facts out there rather than repeated intnet lore.




    Even if what I was told by my own Porsche sales rep about 175,000 PDA miles showing .01mm wear was incorrect I think the article you posted showing NO WEAR on a 175,000 test car speaks volumes. That info. is good info. for me. NO WEAR at 175,000 miles so how many miles can you drive before needing a rotor replacement? 275,000? 300,000? And I bet THEIR 175,000 miles is a lot harsher on brakes then my own miles.

    But just to be thorough because I agree that internet lore sucks I've emailed the rep to ask for back-up. Here's his original email which you have to admit is very believable after you read the article you posted:

    " Steel rotors are cheap $1000, three different part numbers
    997-351-405-00
    997-351-406-00
    997-352-405-01

    Ceramic rotors are cost $$arm and $$leg sometimes $$firstborn too

    I don't have exact pricing yet and parts are going to get back to me with
    that but in testing the CERAMIC ROTORS after 300,000 miles showed VIRTUALLY
    NO WEAR. At PDE (Porsche Driving Experience) in RACE ONLY cars, with
    175,000 RACE MILES and RACE BRAKING...showed less than .01mm wear at the
    rotor. You'll never need replacement of a rotor unless you plan on driving
    to the moon. This is a worthwhile option because not only does the car
    brake better, but the car handles better because of unsprung weight.
    Literally you can brake so late into corners and on the street it is safer
    because of the shorter stopping distance and resistance to fade...MOST
    IMPORTANT, NO BRAKE DUST!!! Am I doing a good job selling this option yet?
    When you get standard brakes, when you do pads, they will suggest rotor
    changes as well making pad replacement much more expensive in the
    $2300-$2400 range. After a few brake jobs you've recouped your money! :-)

    Anyway, I would MAKE YOU UPGRADE CARS BEFORE YOU EVEN WOULD NEED A BRAKE
    CHANGE!"


    Point being I wont ever need PCCB rotor replacement.......The guy I sell my turbo to in 5 or 6 or 7 years from now probably wont need PCCB rotor replacement and the guy he sells the car to probably wont need rotor replacement.

    Re: Any hard objective facts comparing PCP and ste

    Stradale, I don't doubt what you've been told, but salesman have proven time and time again that they are, ahem, salesmen.

    I may get PCCBs again, but I'd be doing so with my eyes wide open. I test drove the exact spec cars except for steel v. pccb back to back. The PCCB car just felt better. More precise, more nimble. Hard to explain.

    However, they are not completely proven. The article came from Christophorus, which is not the best place to get unbiased input. PDE cars have indeed reported to be holding up well.

    My point is that going PCCB is not w/o some risk.

    By the way, another point that I didn't bring up:

    - I *believe* that PCCB equipped cars can handle track use w/o pad swaps. There are different PCCB specific pads available, but people have been running stock pads at the track with pad replacement at half wear. This is a huge boon to lazy people like me. . . just show up at the track and drive the pizz out of it.

    Re: Any hard objective facts comparing PCP and ste

    Quote:
    frayed said:
    Stradale, I don't doubt what you've been told, but salesman have proven time and time again that they are, ahem, salesmen.

    I may get PCCBs again, but I'd be doing so with my eyes wide open. I test drove the exact spec cars except for steel v. pccb back to back. The PCCB car just felt better. More precise, more nimble. Hard to explain.

    However, they are not completely proven. The article came from Christophorus, which is not the best place to get unbiased input. PDE cars have indeed reported to be holding up well.

    My point is that going PCCB is not w/o some risk.

    By the way, another point that I didn't bring up:

    - I *believe* that PCCB equipped cars can handle track use w/o pad swaps. There are different PCCB specific pads available, but people have been running stock pads at the track with pad replacement at half wear. This is a huge boon to lazy people like me. . . just show up at the track and drive the pizz out of it.




    It's okay, nothing personal I know. This is good/interesting stuff imo.

    Of course there's risk, there's risk w/ anything. I was reading the current Road & Track and the Corvette's steel rotors had cracks in them from tracking the car, cracks you could see easily. Would this ever happen w/ steel rotors on a 997, I highly doubt it but it appears like the Carbon Ceramics are almost bullit-proof against wear. In comparison steel rotors need frequent replacement because of wear. I wonder how many steel rotors they would have gone through in that same 175,000 mile test? Any guesses????????? 10? If so that's about $10,000 worth of rotor replacements versus $0 for the Carbon Ceramics.

    Re: Any hard objective facts comparing PCP and ste

    cracks? yeah, any steel braked, cross drilled porsche will get cracks. The fine ones from the holes are OK, but when they move beyond minor you have to pitch them. They are truly disposable, track use can eat them up with aplomb.

    Re: Any hard objective facts comparing PCP and ste

    Don't bet on better stopping distances for ceramic over steel, no data out suggesting that at all. Could be after 5-panic stops, but on the street, highly unlikely so many high speed panic stops are required, if so, best the driver stays home before he kills someone.

    Re: Any hard objective facts comparing PCP and ste

    Quote:
    johnww said:
    Don't bet on better stopping distances for ceramic over steel, no data out suggesting that at all. Could be after 5-panic stops, but on the street, highly unlikely so many high speed panic stops are required, if so, best the driver stays home before he kills someone.




    Not so sure about that. Autoweek just broke the all time best stopping distance w/ a PCCB equipped turbo. Granted I haven't seen the 0-60 stopping time for steel but so far the Autoweek record belongs to PCCB's and they give credit to the stopping record to the PCCB's:

    "But the Turbo didn't only dominate off the line. It took the top spot in braking, too, using just 99 feet of tarmac to come to a stop from 60 mph. That beats all comers before it, including the Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution that previously held the record at 100 feet flat.

    Much of the credit for that record-breaking stopping power falls to the $8,840 optional ceramic brakes found on our test car, which never overheated, smoked or pulsed even after repeated hard braking from 100 mph."

    Re: Any hard objective facts comparing PCP and ste

    On my 96 turbo I have 996 RSR big reds. I'd be very interested to compare these, for power and feel, to 997 ceramics. And they fit under 18 wheels (barely). Anybody driven these, and can compare them to PCCBs? I think I paid about 8k for em - wonder if they are better.

     
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