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    Re: AFTER the Rennteam Summer Party (Second Day)



    There is a reason that the standard test for sports cars is the Nordschleife.Flat racetracks do not put a car (and driver) through as many real-world performance measuring criteria as does the roller-coaster ride of the Nordschleife. But Ring knowledge takes time to acquire.

    Short, flat tracks are much easier to learn than the 20 kmof the Nordschleifewith its wild off-camber corners and blind humps. Nevertheless, the Ring is the ultimate sports car test.

    Driver skill and track knowledge are paramount at the Ring. I have seen hot hatches with good drivers eat supercars with more than twice their horsepower.

    Re: AFTER the Rennteam Summer Party (Second Day)

    Quote:
    KF said:
    Track is a kiddy place? Do you really think racing on public streets is an adult thing? Come on, Christian. You always say that only irresponsible guys would do such stupid things.



    Writing in a foreign language...always a sure source for misunderstanding.
    I meant that track driving is easier in my opinion because it takes place in a "controlled" environment where you can neglect a few things and concentrate on the driving only.

    Re: AFTER the Rennteam Summer Party (Second Day)

    Quote:
    AUM said:


    There is a reason that the standard test for sports cars is the Nordschleife.Flat racetracks do not put a car (and driver) through as many real-world performance measuring criteria as does the roller-coaster ride of the Nordschleife. But Ring knowledge takes time to acquire.

    Short, flat tracks are much easier to learn than the 20 kmof the Nordschleifewith its wild off-camber corners and blind humps. Nevertheless, the Ring is the ultimate sports car test.

    Driver skill and track knowledge are paramount at the Ring. I have seen hot hatches with good drivers eat supercars with more than twice their horsepower.



    The Ring is difficult, not because it necessarily poses a challenge for the car but because it is like a public road...which in fast it is.
    You even sometimes have the traffic of a public road, mixed traffic with motorcycles, fast cars, slow cars, crazy drivers, good drivers, bad drivers, all that at the same time on the same road. So yes, the driver is crucial on the Ring, not the car. This is why I don't quite understand your claim. I agree regarding the driver, I disagree regarding the car.

    For evaluating a car's handling performance, the Hockenheim Ring (Kleiner Kurs) is much better. This is also the reason why SPORT AUTO does both, the Nordschleife AND the Kleiner Ring because the Ring favors high power cars.

    Re: AFTER the Rennteam Summer Party (Second Day)

    Closed sessions can be arranged at the Ring with no other traffic on the road. The most significant lap time (performance measure) for sports cars is the Nordschleife.

    Re: AFTER the Rennteam Summer Party (Second Day)

    Quote:
    Crash said:
    So, do you prefer the Nordschleife then?



    Andrej, just a friendly reminder: I was directly behind the spearhead car and there was no possibility to pass him (unless I wanted to commit suicide). The others were aprox. 2 minutes behind us. CR played the safety car behind us and was keeping the rest of the cars at an "acceptable" speed to avoid any crashes and for a reason. He could have gone much faster, same with the Vette.

    And although I have humor, may I ask you: what car do YOU drive (or have you driven lately)?! Sorry to sound like an arrogant a.. but please, do yourself a favor and read but don't talk. You know what I mean. It isn't the first time I mentioned that Rennteam is for OWNERS/DRIVERS mainly and I won't repeat myself. There are enough other forums on the internet where people can play Grand Tourismo 4.

    Re: AFTER the Rennteam Summer Party (Second Day)

    Quote:
    AUM said:
    Closed sessions can be arranged at the Ring with no other traffic on the road. The most significant lap time (performance measure) for sports cars is the Nordschleife.



    AUM, so my Cayenne Turbo Powerkit must be a sportscar then. Judging by the Norschleife track time of 8:4x (sorry, don't remember the last number), it outruns many of the so called sportscars.

    Sorry, I can't agree: the Nordschleife is a benchmark for overall sportscar capability but it clearly favors high power cars. Taking two drivers at the same driving skill level, the driver in YOUR car will be always faster on the Nordschleife than the driver in a Cayman S for example (which handling-wise is a treat. )

    Re: AFTER the Rennteam Summer Party (Second Day)

    Great sports cars need a perfect balance of power and traction. The NBR is the litmus test of both. Porsche and most sports car makers understand this very well - hence so much sports car R&D at the Ring.

    Re: AFTER the Rennteam Summer Party (Second Day)

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Quote:
    Crash said:
    So, do you prefer the Nordschleife then?



    Andrej, just a friendly reminder: I was directly behind the spearhead car and there was no possibility to pass him (unless I wanted to commit suicide). The others were aprox. 2 minutes behind us. CR played the safety car behind us and was keeping the rest of the cars at an "acceptable" speed to avoid any crashes and for a reason. He could have gone much faster, same with the Vette.

    And although I have humor, may I ask you: what car do YOU drive (or have you driven lately)?! Sorry to sound like an arrogant a.. but please, do yourself a favor and read but don't talk. You know what I mean. It isn't the first time I mentioned that Rennteam is for OWNERS/DRIVERS mainly and I won't repeat myself. There are enough other forums on the internet where people can play Grand Tourismo 4.



    HALLELUJAH!
    I've wanted to say something about this recently but I'm not a Editor/ Moderator so

    It's not that I don't want to hear other's opinion's or points it's just that recently more & more the opinion's of some are regurgitations of what they've read on chat board's and not from their own personal experiences. It sometimes waters down the information quite a bit unfortunately.

    RC- Great report!

    Re: AFTER the Rennteam Summer Party (Second Day)

    If you really want to conduct a fair and safe "shootout" I would avoid Norschleife (just my opinion). Why ?

    1. Because NS favours those drivers who have done 100 laps or so already enjoying a big advantage in experience over those who are not racing the Ring that often (I'm not talking about driving experience in general, but specific NS-experience with its 73 curves and permantly changing track conditions -learning the curves by heart with a playstation is no substitute ).

    2. Way more important: even if you arrange a closed session on NS it's not really safe compared to a modern track (if you loose your car it will hurt your bankaccount at least...).

    So I guess HHR (Kleiner Kurs) or maybe Oschersleben is the way to go: much easier to learn (compared to NS) and a safe playground in case something goes wrong.

    And don't forget to design the "shootout" in a fashion complying with your insurance.

    Re: AFTER the Rennteam Summer Party (Second Day)

    Short technical tracks may favour Tip for some drivers. But the Nordschleife requires traction and power, which makes the manual LSD faster on this real-world undulating race road. This may be another reason to avoid the Ring?

    Re: AFTER the Rennteam Summer Party (Second Day)

    Sorry, but I value safety higher than everything else when it comes to near the limit driving (maybe it's just me becoming older). If I rethink the whole "shootout" thing it might be a silly idea in the first place for some amateurs (even for the most skilled ones). At the end of the day the results can be challenged anyway because somebody might claim it's all about the different drivers (even swapping the cars won't help to avoid that - just to the contrary ), so it might be totally useless, unless it's a pure fun thing (I guess that has been the intention for the Black Forest drive).

    Re: AFTER the Rennteam Summer Party (Second Day)

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Quote:
    Crash said:
    So, do you prefer the Nordschleife then?



    Andrej, just a friendly reminder: I was directly behind the spearhead car and there was no possibility to pass him (unless I wanted to commit suicide). The others were aprox. 2 minutes behind us. CR played the safety car behind us and was keeping the rest of the cars at an "acceptable" speed to avoid any crashes and for a reason. He could have gone much faster, same with the Vette.

    And although I have humor, may I ask you: what car do YOU drive (or have you driven lately)?! Sorry to sound like an arrogant a.. but please, do yourself a favor and read but don't talk. You know what I mean. It isn't the first time I mentioned that Rennteam is for OWNERS/DRIVERS mainly and I won't repeat myself. There are enough other forums on the internet where people can play Grand Tourismo 4.



    The Nordschleife comment was referring to your Turbo, not your driving skill, I'm sorry if it came out wrong. Yes, I realize that I'm not close in skill to you guys and that there is more to driving than leaving the right foot planted, that's what many of us get from reading this board, regardless of whether we are owners or not. And I don't like Grand Tourismo, as I much prefer GTR to it .

    Re: AFTER the Rennteam Summer Party (Second Day)

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Quote:
    Crash said:
    So, do you prefer the Nordschleife then?



    Andrej, just a friendly reminder: I was directly behind the spearhead car and there was no possibility to pass him (unless I wanted to commit suicide). The others were aprox. 2 minutes behind us. CR played the safety car behind us and was keeping the rest of the cars at an "acceptable" speed to avoid any crashes and for a reason. He could have gone much faster, same with the Vette.

    And although I have humor, may I ask you: what car do YOU drive (or have you driven lately)?! Sorry to sound like an arrogant a.. but please, do yourself a favor and read but don't talk. You know what I mean. It isn't the first time I mentioned that Rennteam is for OWNERS/DRIVERS mainly and I won't repeat myself. There are enough other forums on the internet where people can play Grand Tourismo 4.




    Re: AFTER the Rennteam Summer Party (Second Day)

    If you use a track for your next shoot out, I suggest you
    run laps individually for safety.

    Having a professional driver there to moderate, course briefing, safety and observation would probably be a wise idea. My first choice would be that Swedish Carrera Cup
    driver, Jenna.

    And no passing on the infield!

    Re: AFTER the Rennteam Summer Party (Second Day)

    Nice post RC, this is part of the ownership great experience we can have with a beast like 997TT, having big fun with some exoctic toys. No matter who's de fastest, what really counts is the spirit, and having fun among friends with same passion for fast cars . Thanks for sharing

    Re: AFTER the Rennteam Summer Party (Second Day)

    Quote:
    AUM said:
    Short technical tracks may favour Tip for some drivers. But the Nordschleife requires traction and power, which makes the manual LSD faster on this real-world undulating race road. This may be another reason to avoid the Ring?



    Have you driven the 997 Turbo Tip? When you have, talk to me again, sorry.

    Re: AFTER the Rennteam Summer Party (Second Day)

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    If you use a track for your next shoot out, I suggest you
    run laps individually for safety.

    Having a professional driver there to moderate, course briefing, safety and observation would probably be a wise idea. My first choice would be that Swedish Carrera Cup
    driver, Jenna.

    And no passing on the infield!



    Jim, this is exactly what it WASN'T about: driver skills. It was about the cars and apparently each owner had a different view of reality.

    Re: AFTER the Rennteam Summer Party (Second Day)

    Quote:
    CF said:
    It was nice to finally meet all you guys, let's hope we can have another Rennteam meeting soon again.



    August maybe?

    Re: AFTER the Rennteam Summer Party (Second Day)

    Myprimary interest is a well-documented comparison between manual/LSD and Tip 997 Turbos on the NBR, the benchmark track for sports car comparison, according to Porsche and most respected authorities.

    Walter claims the manual/LSD is 3 seconds faster around the NBR, despite the Tip's acceleration advantage to 200 kph, and despite the Tip always making perfect fast shifts.

    This indicates that the traction advantage of manual/LSD must be significant on the Ring. 50 kg less weight may also help the manual/LSD Ring times.I also want to know which car is fastest from 200-300 kph and 0-300kph.

    Any shootout that does not compare the manual/LSD and Tip performance on the Ring is irrelevant to me and anyone who wants to know which car is truly fastest on the benchmark track.

    Re: AFTER the Rennteam Summer Party (Second Day)

    I'm pretty sure that Walter Röhrl is 3 seconds faster on the Nordschleife in a LSD equipped manual operated 997 Turbo. 3 seconds on a 20 km track. Done by a professional driver who 1. took a major role in 997 Turbo development and 2. knows the Nordschleife like his own bedroom.

    I still think that a non-professional driver would profit from Tiptronic more because keeping both hands on the steering wheel is a major advantage for the "average Joe" (oh boy, do I love this expression... ) driver.

    If you consider yourself a pro like Walter, then so be it, I agree with you. But then you need to get a GT3 RS and not a GT3 or even a Turbo. To use the words of a friend: AWD and PSM are for pussies. Of course I don't agree but you may actually like this statement.

    Re: AFTER the Rennteam Summer Party (Second Day)

    It seems to me that manual vs. TIP debate is going in very wrong direction...
    Both versions are excellent, although different. There are lot of people out there with different needs, so we have two versions. One(manual/LSD) is definitely better car on twisty road and track in RIGHT hands. Other(TIP) is better daily driver and faster in AVERAGE person hands.
    Ultimate track car? GT3RS or wait for new GT2, maybe even F430PISTA...
    You want manual gearbox with possiblity to hold your steering wheel with both hands? Buy Gallardo e.gear or F430F1! I am not kidding here...
    BTW, most of the people forget that 997 Turbo is faster in real world condition then 99.999% cars on the road! That is the fact...

    Re: AFTER the Rennteam Summer Party (Second Day)

    The whole point of a comparison is to separate the facts from opinions. IMO you seem to be afraid of taking your Tip to the Ring for a true comparison with manual LSD.

    Re: AFTER the Rennteam Summer Party (Second Day)

    Quote:
    Both versions are excellent, although different. There are lot of people out there with different needs, so we have two versions.



    i completely second this. there is no "wrong" or "correct" in this case, each to his own.

    Re: AFTER the Rennteam Summer Party (Second Day)

    Quote:
    KresoF1 said:
    It seems to me that manual vs. TIP debate is going in very wrong direction...
    Both versions are excellent, although different. There are lot of people out there with different needs, so we have two versions. One(manual/LSD) is definitely better car on twisty road and track in RIGHT hands. Other(TIP) is better daily driver and faster in AVERAGE person hands.
    Ultimate track car? GT3RS or wait for new GT2, maybe even F430PISTA...
    You want manual gearbox with possiblity to hold your steering wheel with both hands? Buy Gallardo e.gear or F430F1! I am not kidding here...
    BTW, most of the people forget that 997 Turbo is faster in real world condition then 99.999% cars on the road! That is the fact...



    997 gt2 will be The Rocket...

    Re: AFTER the Rennteam Summer Party (Second Day)

    Quote:
    andrea said:
    Quote:
    KresoF1 said:
    It seems to me that manual vs. TIP debate is going in very wrong direction...
    Both versions are excellent, although different. There are lot of people out there with different needs, so we have two versions. One(manual/LSD) is definitely better car on twisty road and track in RIGHT hands. Other(TIP) is better daily driver and faster in AVERAGE person hands.
    Ultimate track car? GT3RS or wait for new GT2, maybe even F430PISTA...
    You want manual gearbox with possiblity to hold your steering wheel with both hands? Buy Gallardo e.gear or F430F1! I am not kidding here...
    BTW, most of the people forget that 997 Turbo is faster in real world condition then 99.999% cars on the road! That is the fact...



    997 gt2 will be The Rocket...



    ... as it always has been.

    Re: AFTER the Rennteam Summer Party (Second Day)

    Quote:
    AUM said:
    The whole point of a comparison is to separate the facts from opinions. IMO you seem to be afraid of taking your Tip to the Ring for a true comparison with manual LSD.



    Believe me. RC is one of the best drivers i know. I mean not professionals!

    IMO you're an absolut Ring freak. The ring gives you a perfect opportunity to make a comparison between cars driven by the same person. But to compare some cars with different drivers you have to use a track like Hockenheim or
    GP-track NBR.

    I have ca. 50-60 rounds on the Ring, but i prefer safe tracks to go to the limit.

    Re: AFTER the Rennteam Summer Party (Second Day)

    I am not interested in anyone's driving ability.The only relevant comparison is between cars not drivers.

    I want to know the true performance difference on the universally acknowledged benchmark track between manual/ LSD and Tip.Three seconds difference (more if you consider the Tip's acceleration advantage out of 73 corners over 20 Kms) means the manual/LSD has a lot more traction.

    I want a comparison to determine the extent of the manual / LSD traction advantage. Perhaps this information is of interest to other enthusiasts, since superior manual traction appears to offset the Tip's straight line speed.

    Re: AFTER the Rennteam Summer Party (Second Day)

    Quote:
    AUM said:
    The whole point of a comparison is to separate the facts from opinions. IMO you seem to be afraid of taking your Tip to the Ring for a true comparison with manual LSD.



    You really don't want this, trust me.

    Re: AFTER the Rennteam Summer Party (Second Day)

    Quote:
    KF said:
    Believe me. RC is one of the best drivers i know. I mean not professionals!




    Re: AFTER the Rennteam Summer Party (Second Day)

    Quote:
    Rossi said:
    997 gt2 will be The Rocket...



    ... as it always has been.



    I just have to remind myself of the performance of KF's 996 GT2 MkII last weekend. VERY impressive. And this is actually an "old" car with "old" technology. Unbelievable.

     
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