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    Re: 2012 German F1 Grand Prix at Hockenheim

    Carlos from Spain:

    "I didn't know were Button was"... "I went on the blue slippery paint"... what a lying brat:

    Do you really expect that F1 drivers are honest?  Cheating and lying is part of this business for these drivers, without exception (sad but true)


    Re: 2012 German F1 Grand Prix at Hockenheim

    Ferdie:

    Yes, he was... What I just don´t understand is how someone going around on the outside can gain such an advantage that it gives him the edge over the competitor.

    No, there is an important difference, hamilton did not overtake while outside the track, he went outside the track but at the moment he went back into the track he was behind Rosberg and Rosberg had the leading position, no overtake had taken place yet, Hamilton in fact made the overtake on the braking for the curve following, at which time he was inside the track.

    Going off track because you are pushed out or because you run wide so as not to loose to much momentum has never been penalised, and happens every GP and often preceeds an overtake attempt at the next corner because the driver was at the limit or got very close pre-emtively, as long as you don't perfrom the overtake while the 4 wheels are outside the track.

    Vettel made the pass on Button while he was outside the track taking advantage of the wider line he was able to take having much better traction than Button who by doing the tight hairpin depicted by the track course was slower. That is why Vettel slingshot in front of Button.


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    Re: 2012 German F1 Grand Prix at Hockenheim

    jesse:
    Carlos from Spain:

    "I didn't know were Button was"... "I went on the blue slippery paint"... what a lying brat:

    Do you really expect that F1 drivers are honest?  Cheating and lying is part of this business for these drivers, without exception (sad but true)

    I agree, its part of their extreme competive nature they were brought in, but the point is some much more than others. Would you imagine Button or Webber behaving that way?


    --


    Re: 2012 German F1 Grand Prix at Hockenheim

    Carlos from Spain:
    Ferdie:

    Yes, he was... What I just don´t understand is how someone going around on the outside can gain such an advantage that it gives him the edge over the competitor.

    No, there is an important difference, hamilton did not overtake while outside the track, he went outside the track but at the moment he went back into the track he was behind Rosberg and Rosberg had the leading position, no overtake had taken place yet, Hamilton in fact made the overtake on the braking for the curve following, at which time he was inside the track.


    Oh come on,

    that is a bit phony. Hamilton for example would´ve never had the opportunity to pass alongside Rosberg in this particular case and out brake him at the entry of the following corner. That is exactly why Rosberg moved to the right to prevent Hamilton from doing so.

    As I´ve said above, I seem to remember that many drivers were using this area outside of the designated track before and I cannot remember that anyone has been punished for that. Is it so difficult for the world´s greatest single-seater racing series to establish a proper surface that might not put you out of the race but clearly hinders you to receive a benefit?

    Bottom line... if you are off the track with four wheels and in a battle with your opponent, step back and give the position to your opponent. This though should account for all cases, no matter which position you have relative to the other car. I find it truly ridiculous that we, as F1 enthusiasts, have to debate whether such a move is legal or not. 

     


    Re: 2012 German F1 Grand Prix at Hockenheim

    I see it very clear cut and I'm not a fan of Hamilton, every part of Vettel's overtake was done while he was outside the track.

    Running out of the track but rejoining while still behind is not illegal. Do you think that if Vettel would of lifted and rejoined the track behind Button but close enough thanks to it, to jump on the inside line on the braking to the next corner and overtake Button he would of gotten penalised? Everybody seems to be pretty clear about it, the comentators, the marshalls and "most" of the fans of all colors yes 

    No one even mentioned Hamilton to be at fault for anything on that maneuver, in fact Rosberg was criticised instead (he did the same thing to Alonso on the same corner on the same race), and yet when Vettel did it the reaction was inmediate. It's like the following car attempting and overtake on the braking of a corner, failing to gain the lead and instead of letting the leading car through finally and rejoin behind him so as not to crash with him, cutting a chicane instead, rejoining the track in front and arguing he wanted to avoid collision. 


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    Re: 2012 German F1 Grand Prix at Hockenheim

    Ferdie:

    Yes, he was... What I just don´t understand is how someone going around on the outside can gain such an advantage that it gives him the edge over the competitor.

    I also remember that in the past a lot of people used this strip of run-off area to avoid a collision. Not sure but I believe it was Schumacher who once damaged his rear tire because he went over the kerbs with too much speed while returning back onto the defined track area just the way Vettel did.

    yes

    Hamilton had passed Nico on the inside. Sebastian on the outside which is much faster on that hairpin curve. 

    Schumi is drving MB 220 CDI while Vettel drives Infity FX :)


    --

    AM
    www.aldo-yachting.de


    Re: 2012 German F1 Grand Prix at Hockenheim

    Carlos from Spain:

    Running out of the track but rejoining while still behind is not illegal. 


    Carlos,

    I understand your reasoning and can relate to that. I still think that both passes we discussed have a very similar pattern in that they both were pushed off the defined track area by a competitor, moved entirely beyond this border and gained a significant advantage by doing that. Hamilton did pass alongside Rosberg due to this maneuver and had the far better line for the next corner. Vettel, by avoiding Button, took the longer line over a painted stretch of tarmac and the curbs and still passed him. I believe that the degradation of Button´s tires contributed far more than that particular maneuver.

    Don´t get me wrong, I am fine with any penalty they give them but I do not see the consistency. We obviously have to start nitpicking to see the differences between these two passes that presumably explain the incorrectness of Vettel´s move alone. I also believe that both would´ve been able to stop their overtaking maneuver at an early stage and been able to make another attempt.

    As I´ve said, we wouldn´t need to make these discussions if there would´ve been a solid wall or gravel trap.

    Smiley


    Re: 2012 German F1 Grand Prix at Hockenheim

    Hi Ferdie,

    I agree that both gained some advantage, but Vettel gained much more, this was no particular corner, it was a hairpin  type corner and by opening up the steering coming out of the turn and going on the ouside of the track which was not slippery, he was able to accelerate much faster than Button who had to drop his speed much more to trace the hairpin and lost some additional traction with a bit oversteer.

    I guarantee you if there were slippper grass or sticky gravel on the outside of that corner, Vettel would have never gone on the outside and would of simply lifted the throttle midcorner and follwed right behind Button on the exit of the corner. He knew he could safely go ouside the track there and accelerate WOT there and he used it for an advantage.

    I guess you have to cross the line somewere and this is a very clear cut place to do it for rule clarity, if the overtake maneuver occurs with all four wheel outside the track, its illegal. Its like cutting the chicane in Monaco vs simply grabbing the inside line into the corner and having to go half car inside the curve because the outside driver closes the door too much.

    I don't understand why  the team did not tell Vettel inmediately to give up his position and try another overtake, he had time to do it still given Button's tires  

    Also I can understand Vettel in the heat of the moment making a bad call like that the split second you have to make it, everybody is human. But what I criticise is how inspite being inmediately clear afterwards that it was a mistake and an unfair overtake, he did not correct it afterwards, went on to the finish line, stripped Button of his second place podium celebration and the icing on the cake is outright lying afterwords to try to cover it up and get away with it ("Button didn't complain" "I went on the slippery blue paint" "I didn't know were he was" etc). Shameful behaviour.


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    Re: 2012 German F1 Grand Prix at Hockenheim

    I share your view but value the severeness differently, especially in comparison to other exemplary cases as the one involving Hamilton and Rosberg. Where does the overtaking maneuver end? When you pass alongside the opponent, when your rear axle is in front of his front axle, when he cannot read the advertisement on your rear wing anymore...? As you correctly stated, as soon as you gain advantage by your maneuver you have to be penalized for it. Why these double-standards then...?

    On the gif animations you provided further up one can clearly see that Vettel gained a lot of momentum at the end of the maneuver. I still believe that his tire advantage over Button was decisive in this battle, less so his movement to the outside of the track.

    I agree that this behavior should be penalized but as one can see in this discussion, drawing a line that is forbidden to overstep is not the most fruitful approach. Anyway... wink


    Re: 2012 German F1 Grand Prix at Hockenheim

    Ferdie,  while the subtleties of what is and what is not penalized do seem to draw a very fine line; I just want to commend your cool reserve for not calling it blatant favoratism toward Ferrari. (that used to come up quite a bit from some other Rennteamers).

    Surely if other similar situations had been penalized, then Vettel would have known to keep the situation in check and capitalize on his remaining opportunities. He pushed the limits a tiny bit too hard and was then the one to get screwed. Quite unfortunate since he was going to pass Button before the end of the race.


    Re: 2012 German F1 Grand Prix at Hockenheim

    Vettel needed someone cool in the pits to tell him right away to let Button by and retake him on the next lap.  Why does this position not exist in F1.  Like a spotter in, dare I say it, NASCAR.

    Vettel was not a good judge of his own actions.  As far as he was concerned he thought he did something brilliant - passing on the slippery paint!  While it may have been a miracle that he got traction on the paint - the fact was it was out of the racing track.  It may have been impossible for anyone else to have done that BUT still he did not see the wrong in it from his charged viewpoint.

    Good race anyway!  Alonso kicked ASS!  He drove consistently and is the first driver to really figure out how to manage a lead with those tires - Kimi failed at that earlier.

    Now - you will all hate me - THE FACT IS Vettel was quicker and he would have overtaken Button by the end.  I think the judges need to take little facts like that into account and not penalize Vettel in this instance.  I know - not logical but more like real life.

     

     


    Re: 2012 German F1 Grand Prix at Hockenheim

    Carlos from Spain:
    jesse:
    Carlos from Spain:

    "I didn't know were Button was"... "I went on the blue slippery paint"... what a lying brat:

    Do you really expect that F1 drivers are honest?  Cheating and lying is part of this business for these drivers, without exception (sad but true)

    I agree, its part of their extreme competive nature they were brought in, but the point is some much more than others. Would you imagine Button or Webber behaving that way?

    Ack. 

    It seems to be that Button and Webber are IMO generally less ambitious or let's say especiall in extreme situations less overambitious.  It's part of their personallity, maybe that's the reason why they are less successful than these usual younger F1 swots.

    I dont want to nitpick but If I'm right, wasn't Button accused to cheat with his former BAR car? (remember dual fuel tank usage?) . Additionaly this comes to mind http://thestar.blogs.com/autoracing/2011/04/was-buttons-pit-error-on-purpose.html  </nitpicking off>
     


    Re: 2012 German F1 Grand Prix at Hockenheim

    Leawood911:

    Vettel needed someone cool in the pits to tell him right away to let Button by and retake him on the next lap.  Why does this position not exist in F1.  Like a spotter in, dare I say it, NASCAR.

    Vettel was not a good judge of his own actions.  As far as he was concerned he thought he did something brilliant - passing on the slippery paint!  While it may have been a miracle that he got traction on the paint - the fact was it was out of the racing track.  It may have been impossible for anyone else to have done that BUT still he did not see the wrong in it from his charged viewpoint.

    Good race anyway!  Alonso kicked ASS!  He drove consistently and is the first driver to really figure out how to manage a lead with those tires - Kimi failed at that earlier.

    Now - you will all hate me - THE FACT IS Vettel was quicker and he would have overtaken Button by the end.  I think the judges need to take little facts like that into account and not penalize Vettel in this instance.  I know - not logical but more like real life.

     

     

    Exactly my thoughts... Smiley


    Re: 2012 German F1 Grand Prix at Hockenheim

    Leawood911:
     As far as he was concerned he thought he did something brilliant - passing on the slippery paint!  While it may have been a miracle that he got traction on the paint - the fact was it was out of the racing track.  It may have been impossible for anyone else to have done that BUT still he did not see the wrong in it from his charged viewpoint.

    Smiley

    I have often driven myself over this painted curb during Trackdays in Hockenheim - I really can´t see any advantage for Vettel, there is zero traction. It seems Button looked to Vettel on the left side for a second and forgot to put his foot down on the pedalSmiley that could be the reason for the easy overtaking of Vettel.

    Because of race-situations like this - I watch F1 - not because of the stupid DRS-Action...

    Blueflame Smiley


    Re: 2012 German F1 Grand Prix at Hockenheim

    I disagree with this analysis. Button was on asphalt, Vettel was on the Santander logo, so in that situation, the surface didn't offer either an advantage over the other.

    If Vettel had driven on the blue/white kerb, then he would have had a disadvantage. So he was trying not to be disadvantaged by going all 4 wheels off track i.e. he was gaining an advantage over where he would have (legally) been by (illegally) going off track.

    Vettel overtook round the outside, so he needed the wider line to keep his speed up going a longer distance around Button.

    As for Leawood's view, F1 is not decided by what might/could/would have happened ... you actually have to make the pass and you have to do it legally. What you have said merely illustrates that Vettel was impatient and chose the wrong time to overtake. I also think he could easily have passed at a subsequent corner since Button's tyres were finished but Vettel didn't do that so he paid the price.

    The rules need to be adhered to otherwise it becomes a free for all. And, Vettel fans need to realise that the rules apply to him too. If Vettel and RBR can accept the stewards' decision without appealing, why can't Vettel fans?


    --


    997.1 C2S
     GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen pickup, BMW Z4 2.5i Roadster Sterling Grey/Red


    Re: 2012 German F1 Grand Prix at Hockenheim

    Overall, I thought it was quite a dull race. Some great drives by Alonso, Vettel, Button and the Sauber drivers ... but, in terms of action, it was not an unpredictable ding-dong kind of race. I'm sure the warm, sunny weather is to blame.

    Post race strategy report

    http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2012/07/german-gp-shows-whos-getting-on-top-of-the-tyre-lottery/


    --


    997.1 C2S
     GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen pickup, BMW Z4 2.5i Roadster Sterling Grey/Red


    Re: 2012 German F1 Grand Prix at Hockenheim

    easy_rider911:

    I disagree with this analysis. Button was on asphalt, Vettel was on the Santander logo, so in that situation, the surface didn't offer either an advantage over the other.

    If Vettel had driven on the blue/white kerb, then he would have had a disadvantage. So he was trying not to be disadvantaged by going all 4 wheels off track i.e. he was gaining an advantage over where he would have (legally) been by (illegally) going off track.

    Vettel overtook round the outside, so he needed the wider line to keep his speed up going a longer distance around Button.

    As for Leawood's view, F1 is not decided by what might/could/would have happened ... you actually have to make the pass and you have to do it legally. What you have said merely illustrates that Vettel was impatient and chose the wrong time to overtake. I also think he could easily have passed at a subsequent corner since Button's tyres were finished but Vettel didn't do that so he paid the price.

    The rules need to be adhered to otherwise it becomes a free for all. And, Vettel fans need to realise that the rules apply to him too. If Vettel and RBR can accept the stewards' decision without appealing, why can't Vettel fans?

    It's just because these stupid double-standard rules could make this man lose the title! I really doubt he accepted it! I am really frustrated that they hadn't challenged the steward's call... 


    Re: 2012 German F1 Grand Prix at Hockenheim

    Gladstone:

    Ferdie,  while the subtleties of what is and what is not penalized do seem to draw a very fine line; I just want to commend your cool reserve for not calling it blatant favoratism toward Ferrari. (that used to come up quite a bit from some other Rennteamers).


    To be bloody honest,

    I didn´t even think of any favoritism towards other teams. It´s just this indiscernible line of argumentation that the stewards seem to follow. For some reason, the addition of a professional driver to judge any incidents on track did not necessarily make the decisions more transparent. Maybe some of them want to make a point, others see it very objectively.

    There is one more thing that should be considered, as there is a difference in written rules that you have to obey on track and gentlemen´s agreements that usually all drivers adhere to. One example of the latter might be Schumacher´s maneuver against Barrichello, pushing him towards the wall on the main straight in one race last year. Even if Schumacher would´ve had a logical and perfectly legal explanation for that, he overstepped the limit (and rightfully was penalized).


    Re: 2012 German F1 Grand Prix at Hockenheim

    blueflame:
    Leawood911:
     As far as he was concerned he thought he did something brilliant - passing on the slippery paint!  While it may have been a miracle that he got traction on the paint - the fact was it was out of the racing track.  It may have been impossible for anyone else to have done that BUT still he did not see the wrong in it from his charged viewpoint.

    Smiley

    I have often driven myself over this painted curb during Trackdays in Hockenheim - I really can´t see any advantage for Vettel, there is zero traction. It seems Button looked to Vettel on the left side for a second and forgot to put his foot down on the pedalSmiley that could be the reason for the easy overtaking of Vettel.

    Because of race-situations like this - I watch F1 - not because of the stupid DRS-Action...


    Thanks!! That´s exactly what I was referring to, if someone implements that Vettel had a big advantage going around the outside, across the painted areas and crossing the curbs yet ends up in front of Button after this maneuver. Therefore we have to decide whether it was illegal to go off the defined track space or illegal to gain a significant advantage due to this maneuver. Whichever it is, why doesn´t he get treated the same way as Hamilton in Bahrain?

    It´s not about Vettel or Hamilton, just about a constant line of argumentation regarding these incidents.


    Re: 2012 German F1 Grand Prix at Hockenheim

     

    OK last post I'm going to type on the matter myself. Its as simple as he overtook while having 4 wheels outside the track, period. Gaining the position IS the advantage gained during that time. If Vettel would not have gone outside the track, he would of not been able to pass unless he would of driven over Button's car in the process because Button had the racing line out of the corner covered. Vettel ignored that and went outside the specified course to bypass that, just like if cutting a chicane. I really don't see any controversy, and there really doesn't seem to be any regarding this issue outside this board yes

    Vettel purposedly went on the outside through the whole corner and on the exit, Hamilton on the other hand was litterally pushed out of the track after the exit as he has the inside and Rosberg violently turned to the inside on purpose instead of following the normal exit line with is the outside, and Hamilton he did not gain a position while outside the track, he just did not loose momentum and he made the overtake under braking for the next corner. The two incidents have nothing in comon. If anything Rosberg is at fault for pushing him out like that while in a straight line, and he was rightfully criticised for it as I remember, as he did the same thing to Alonso on the same place and same race. Nobody even thought of penalising Hamilton.


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    Re: 2012 German F1 Grand Prix at Hockenheim

    Carlos from Spain:

    Vettel purposedly went on the outside through the whole corner and on the exit, Hamilton on the other hand was litterally pushed out of the track after the exit as he has the inside and Rosberg violently turned to the inside on purpose instead of following the normal exit line with is the outside, and Hamilton he did not gain a position while outside the track, he just did not loose momentum and he made the overtake under braking for the next corner. The two incidents have nothing in common. 


    We have to agree to disagree. I see a lot of similarities in these two incidents but we don´t have to debate them to death. Hamilton could´ve braked and remained behind Rosberg just as Vettel could´ve remained with two wheels on the defined track. They both gained an advantage, Vettel´s was presumably superior since Button´s tires were shod (or he deliberately slowed down as it actually looks like in the above posted gifs) while Hamilton was able to pass alongside Rosberg and gain the far better entry to the next corner. 

    Similiarities? Both went off the track and both gained an advantage. Period. Smiley


    Re: 2012 German F1 Grand Prix at Hockenheim

    Sorry Ferdie,

    look at this video:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yC05YfPIBVc

    This stories are different! Hamilton overtook Nico at the next corner. Yes he got an advantage but Nico pushed him outside the track. I thought Nico would get a penalty for that action.

    Here you see that Vettel even opens in the hairpin corner (position 20 seconds).  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gn_kMe-Xm38

     


    --

    AM
    www.aldo-yachting.de


    Re: 2012 German F1 Grand Prix at Hockenheim

    Well I missed the race because I had to do a uni interview in Hamburg kiss

    I thought i'd watch it sometime this week, as I recorded it, but honestly the race was quite boring so I didn't finish it. Great drive by Alonso, yet again. But this punishment on Vettel was a bit silly to say the least.. I am with Ferdie on this one, but I will also say this.. this is how F1 should be (minus the silly punishment). It seems the ruling body of F1 really can't make up their minds and/or are confused who's in charge in these decisions.. Perhaps they've changed the rules so much lately, they don't even know what's what anymore (like a true governing entity feels like around the globe)

    What I find problematic about this season is that the thing is too controlled.. it's like an art they (F1 ruling body) has perfected. Races are now just about managing your tires and nothing else, they enter too much into the race results and it's making the whole thing very artificial I think. Second, the DRS zone and passing flap stuff is just silly.. reducing downforce would have done the job (more passing action).

    Honestly if F1 continues this route we'll soon have 2 cylinder Honda's and Toyota's (yes they will come back for that as long as they pay the big boss) with 4 turbos and very silly ruling to alter the entire race structure while drivers are 100% safe, pushing the car only 50% because tires would be shot within 2 laps. You might as well let them all run after each other in a timed session a la WRC enlightened


    Re: 2012 German F1 Grand Prix at Hockenheim

    ALDO:

    This stories are different! Hamilton overtook Nico at the next corner. Yes he got an advantage but Nico pushed him outside the track. I thought Nico would get a penalty for that action.

    Here you see that Vettel even opens in the hairpin corner (position 20 seconds).  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gn_kMe-Xm38


    Carlos & Adnan,

    I totally respect your point of view and totally agree with what happened. I just disagree with how and why they spoke out a penalty because in my point of view the essential aspects to speak out a penalty account for both. Maybe the reason Hamilton did not receive a penalty was because of Rosberg´s rather spirited move towards the outside of the track, unlike Button who left sufficient room. We can leave it at that, the incident itself is not so important to me as it appears to be in this conversation.

    Smiley


    Re: 2012 German F1 Grand Prix at Hockenheim

    Atzporsche:

    But this punishment on Vettel was a bit silly to say the least.. I am with Ferdie on this one, but I will also say this.. this is how F1 should be (minus the silly punishment). It seems the ruling body of F1 really can't make up their minds and/or are confused who's in charge in these decisions.. Perhaps they've changed the rules so much lately, they don't even know what's what anymore (like a true governing entity feels like around the globe)

    What I find problematic about this season is that the thing is too controlled.. it's like an art they (F1 ruling body) has perfected. Races are now just about managing your tires and nothing else, they enter too much into the race results and it's making the whole thing very artificial I think. Second, the DRS zone and passing flap stuff is just silly.. reducing downforce would have done the job (more passing action).


    Those are my feelings as well. As I´ve said, I wasn´t sure if I missed out on any change of rules since the incident with Hamilton. The fact that we have to debate this incident and obviously share very different views on that shows that all those regulations just make it ridiculously more complicated than necessary. 

    What´s the problem with providing a run-off surface that does, under all circumstances, does not provide you with an advantage yet remains safe in any case of mishap? F1 used to be about drivers and advancements in technology, now it´s about artificial aids to increase the action and legal battles off the track. It sure is exciting to watch as it gets so mixed up over the course of the race but one hardly figures whether it´s due to the driver, the car or an additional artificial element. Smiley


    Re: 2012 German F1 Grand Prix at Hockenheim

    Ferdie:


    It sure is exciting to watch as it gets so mixed up over the course of the race but one hardly figures whether it´s due to the driver, the car or an additional artificial element. Smiley

    I am still a follower of MSC and admire what he does at his age, though, I totally agree with you: Is it really his car as a package putting him back to seventh place from third or the way he treats his car or are really the tires to blame for the results ? I do think that differences of cars etc. within F1 are marginal, but they seem to sum up somehow...


    Re: 2012 German F1 Grand Prix at Hockenheim

    Had many friends go to the Ring this past weekend, the fanbase he enjoys is unmatched.. imagine everyone cheering as he drives by.. very cool. I too wish him a couple more wins and then leave a legacy in terms of a greatly competitive Mercedes. But I fear there's too much involved now than just sheer driving excellence.


    Re: 2012 German F1 Grand Prix at Hockenheim

    Was able to watch the race via the link Misha kindly provided on the Valencia race thread. First of all, have to say that I highly prefer the unbiased commentary on Sky sports from Brundle over mostly anything RTL (and Sky) provides in Germany. Very interesting and sensible commentary.

    Cannot resist to remark that both commentators were initially reluctant to judge on Vettel´s pass. It just proves my point that these incidents are difficult to judge and shouldn´t be made so legally complicated in the first place.

    Certainly impressive drive by Alonso. The way he controlled the race from the front was exemplary. Also happy to see Button regain his momentum as well as Raikkonen showing some solid performance once again. Also impressive how good the Sauber faired, even if they didn´t make it on the podium they left some prominent names behind them.


    Re: 2012 German F1 Grand Prix at Hockenheim

    David Croft and Martin Brundle are both typical of most British commentators who, if they know that an issue is being investigated by the stewards, will not state an opinion too forcefully since (1) they would not want to pre-empt what the stewards will say (since they know that the stewards have access to far more info than what is available to us on the TV e.g. more camera angles, data from the F1 teams themselves etc), (2) they would not want to say something prematurely which later makes them look foolish if the stewards come to a completely different view.

    I didn't get the impression that they were finding it difficult to form a view over this incident ... just that, because the stewards were involved, they prefered to await the outcome of that investigation.


    --


    997.1 C2S
     GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen pickup, BMW Z4 2.5i Roadster Sterling Grey/Red


    Re: 2012 German F1 Grand Prix at Hockenheim

    I was referring to the commentary during the incident. They started to speculate about a penalty only when Button reported his view over radio.


     
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