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    Re: 991 GT3 RS

    Grant:

    I must talk with AP to know if the .2RS will be really the last NASmileySmiley

    He might not even know yet Smiley


    --

     

    73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

     

    He knows but I doubt he will tell. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)


    Re: 991 GT3 RS

    RC:
    He knows but I doubt he will tell. Smiley

    What's your guess.  One more round of NA for the 992.1 GT3 and RS??


    --

     

    73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

     


    Re: 991 GT3 RS

    Grant:
    RC:
    He knows but I doubt he will tell. Smiley

    What's your guess.  One more round of NA for the 992.1 GT3 and RS??


    --

     

    73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

     

    My guess would be no friggin way

    Reality? Don't have a clue but I heard that engineers are already battling with new EU emissions/noise regulations and that new WLTP testing method, so... Smiley

    As a sidenote: Drove the new RS5 recently. Car had sport exhaust but sound was barely noticeable. Smiley Biggest surprise: No more button to switch the sound. Smiley This is going to get worse, only first "phase" of new EU noise emission regulations.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)


    Re: 991 GT3 RS

    So do we think that the the 991.2 RS would be unaffected by the new regs?  i.e. still have a loud button and a sound level similar to the .1?


    --

    2015 911 GT3, 1964 Type 1


    Re: 991 GT3 RS

    DaveGordon:

    So do we think that the the 991.2 RS would be unaffected by the new regs?  i.e. still have a loud button and a sound level similar to the .1?

    You mean this little button? Good question. EU law forbids it now but I do not know when the 991.2 GT3 RS certification went through (date). Smiley

    2017-07-14_15-22-54.png


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)


    Re: 991 GT3 RS

    Guys, get your GT3s and RS' while you still can kiss the future is going to be grim!

    If 992 will still be NA, then you can trade the 991.2 in. If not, then you have the last of the NA! blush


    Re: 991 GT3 RS

    Look how going to turbo engines killed 991.2 and Ferrari and Macan and Cayenne sales... Oh wait angry

    Technology marches on, cars are getting better, safer and faster.


    Re: 991 GT3 RS

    SciFrog:

    Look how going to turbo engines killed 991.2 and Ferrari and Macan and Cayenne sales... Oh wait angry

    Well...which proves that most people are not really interested in the tech but in the brand and performance. Smiley

    The 991.1 GTS models however have kept a pretty good value according to my sales guy. Demand is high for these cars and achieved prices are much better than for the Carrera S models. People who want the last n/a in a Carrera usually want the GTS. Not sure if this is valid for other regions/countries as well. Smiley

    We need to view this from a different perspective: Sound and emotions. Future cars will be much quieter (exhaust/engine) and less emotional to drive. No more high revving engines with screaming sounds, no more switchable exhaust systems, etc.. 

    If this is what people want (or can accept), the future models will (usually) always be faster than the older ones.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)


    Re: 991 GT3 RS

    All depends on how you define "better". It's a subjective matter. There's no stopping technology advancement and the next generation will always be faster, but will it be better, all depends on what You(!) want from the car.


    Re: 991 GT3 RS

    Gauss:

    All depends on how you define "better". It's a subjective matter. There's no stopping technology advancement and the next generation will always be faster, but will it be better, all depends on what You(!) want from the car.

    The next generation, this is something I can tell you 100% (because it is related to new EU laws), will be less loud, less emotional from an exhaust/engine sound point of view. If people don't care about this stuff (for me, this is half the rent Smiley), they will enjoy the next generation which probably will be faster (track) and more refined, with more new tech and whatever. Also of course with a fresher look.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)


    Re: 991 GT3 RS

    Between better police monitoring, emissions and exhaust restrictions performance cars are fast becoming the equivalent of dinosaurs. Performance cars will no longer be fun to drive. The demand will diminish and we will have to find other toys. For me going from a N/A .1 GT3 to a turbo .2 Targa was an eye opener. Though the Targa had terrific performance it just was not as much fun to drive as the GT3. 


    --

    "A man wrapped up in himself makes for a very small bundle."


    Re: 991 GT3 RS

    nberry:

    Between better police monitoring, emissions and exhaust restrictions performance cars are fast becoming the equivalent of dinosaurs. Performance cars will no longer be fun to drive. The demand will diminish and we will have to find other toys. For me going from a N/A .1 GT3 to a turbo .2 Targa was an eye opener. Though the Targa had terrific performance it just was not as much fun to drive as the GT3. 

    I think performance cars will change and will be enjoyable through other means, similar to Tesla cars (gadgets, performance, etc.). Yes, the petrol dinosaurs will probably die a slow death, especially when governments start to force people to use autonomous cars or even robotic mass transportation but it will take a while, hopefully many decades. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)


    Re: 991 GT3 RS

    RC:

    The next generation, this is something I can tell you 100% (because it is related to new EU laws), will be less loud, less emotional from an exhaust/engine sound point of view. If people don't care about this stuff (for me, this is half the rent Smiley), they will enjoy the next generation which probably will be faster (track) and more refined, with more new tech and whatever. Also of course with a fresher look.

    In the US, there is no real problem with installing a louder aftermarket exhaust.  But if all the motors in the GT lineup are turbocharged, it won't be close to the current car in this respect...


    --

    73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi


    Re: 991 GT3 RS

    RC:
    Yes, the petrol dinosaurs will probably die a slow death, especially when governments start to force people to use autonomous cars or even robotic mass transportation but it will take a while, hopefully many decades. Smiley

    This is why it's good to buy a track car - track will be the last/best place to enjoy petro driver-driven cars (and maybe the values won't tank like a V8 or V12 sedan when all the road cars are self-driven and electric)...


    --

    73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi


    Re: 991 GT3 RS

    Grant:
    RC:

    The next generation, this is something I can tell you 100% (because it is related to new EU laws), will be less loud, less emotional from an exhaust/engine sound point of view. If people don't care about this stuff (for me, this is half the rent Smiley), they will enjoy the next generation which probably will be faster (track) and more refined, with more new tech and whatever. Also of course with a fresher look.

    In the US, there is no real problem with installing a louder aftermarket exhaust.  But if all the motors in the GT lineup are turbocharged, it won't be close to the current car in this respect...

    "They" will get you (US) as well sooner or later... Smiley Smiley Smiley

    Future cars will have tech which will make it difficult to add third party aftermarket parts to them, it already started. At some point, I actually think that tuning will be mostly about software, especially when the ELVs are getting more common, even in the performance car market.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)


    Re: 991 GT3 RS

    RC:
    Gauss:

    All depends on how you define "better". It's a subjective matter. There's no stopping technology advancement and the next generation will always be faster, but will it be better, all depends on what You(!) want from the car.

    The next generation, this is something I can tell you 100% (because it is related to new EU laws), will be less loud, less emotional from an exhaust/engine sound point of view. If people don't care about this stuff (for me, this is half the rent Smiley), they will enjoy the next generation which probably will be faster (track) and more refined, with more new tech and whatever. Also of course with a fresher look.

    Proper sound in a sportscar plays a major role in stimulating our senses. How emotional can a drive be if it's muted? Next generation cars will become more and more clinical. 


    Re: 991 GT3 RS

    Grant:
    RC:

    The next generation, this is something I can tell you 100% (because it is related to new EU laws), will be less loud, less emotional from an exhaust/engine sound point of view. If people don't care about this stuff (for me, this is half the rent Smiley), they will enjoy the next generation which probably will be faster (track) and more refined, with more new tech and whatever. Also of course with a fresher look.

    In the US, there is no real problem with installing a louder aftermarket exhaust.  But if all the motors in the GT lineup are turbocharged, it won't be close to the current car in this respect...

    Doesn't this void the Porsche approved warranty ? 


    Re: 991 GT3 RS

    Gauss:
    Grant:
    RC:

    The next generation, this is something I can tell you 100% (because it is related to new EU laws), will be less loud, less emotional from an exhaust/engine sound point of view. If people don't care about this stuff (for me, this is half the rent Smiley), they will enjoy the next generation which probably will be faster (track) and more refined, with more new tech and whatever. Also of course with a fresher look.

    In the US, there is no real problem with installing a louder aftermarket exhaust.  But if all the motors in the GT lineup are turbocharged, it won't be close to the current car in this respect...

    Doesn't this void the Porsche approved warranty ? 

    Of course it voids the warranty but the consequences aren't always palpable because some people may not experience warranty repairs (thus the aftermarket exhaust goes unnoticed) and others may actually not tell their story because they sell the car and/or just accept it that Porsche isn't paying up.

    I heard from one of our sources that future EU emissions/noise regulations will be tied at some point to the certification of the entire car. Meaning: Adding an aftermarket part to it, would void the entire certification, thus requiring a new certification for the entire car with that specific part. Not sure how many aftermarket parts manufacturers will be able to (financially) cope with that, so tuning with aftermarket parts will die a slow death as well at some point.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)


    Re: 991 GT3 RS

    Gauss:
    Grant:
    RC:

    The next generation, this is something I can tell you 100% (because it is related to new EU laws), will be less loud, less emotional from an exhaust/engine sound point of view. If people don't care about this stuff (for me, this is half the rent Smiley), they will enjoy the next generation which probably will be faster (track) and more refined, with more new tech and whatever. Also of course with a fresher look.

    In the US, there is no real problem with installing a louder aftermarket exhaust.  But if all the motors in the GT lineup are turbocharged, it won't be close to the current car in this respect...

    Doesn't this void the Porsche approved warranty ? 

    Unless Porsche can prove that the warranty item to be repaired is related to the after market exhaust, the warranty isn't voided.


    --

    "A man wrapped up in himself makes for a very small bundle."


    Re: 991 GT3 RS

    nberry:
    Gauss:
    Grant:
    RC:

    The next generation, this is something I can tell you 100% (because it is related to new EU laws), will be less loud, less emotional from an exhaust/engine sound point of view. If people don't care about this stuff (for me, this is half the rent Smiley), they will enjoy the next generation which probably will be faster (track) and more refined, with more new tech and whatever. Also of course with a fresher look.

    In the US, there is no real problem with installing a louder aftermarket exhaust.  But if all the motors in the GT lineup are turbocharged, it won't be close to the current car in this respect...

    Doesn't this void the Porsche approved warranty ? 

    Unless Porsche can prove that the warranty item to be repaired is related to the after market exhaust, the warranty isn't voided.

    You know how easy that is? Especially in the case of an engine damage? I wouldn't risk it but I guess Americans were always a little bit less worried about warranty issues and third party mods. Not only with Porsche cars. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)


    Re: 991 GT3 RS

    RC:
    nberry:
    Gauss:
    Grant:
    RC:

    The next generation, this is something I can tell you 100% (because it is related to new EU laws), will be less loud, less emotional from an exhaust/engine sound point of view. If people don't care about this stuff (for me, this is half the rent Smiley), they will enjoy the next generation which probably will be faster (track) and more refined, with more new tech and whatever. Also of course with a fresher look.

    In the US, there is no real problem with installing a louder aftermarket exhaust.  But if all the motors in the GT lineup are turbocharged, it won't be close to the current car in this respect...

    Doesn't this void the Porsche approved warranty ? 

    Unless Porsche can prove that the warranty item to be repaired is related to the after market exhaust, the warranty isn't voided.

    You know how easy that is? Especially in the case of an engine damage? I wouldn't risk it but I guess Americans were always a little bit less worried about warranty issues and third party mods. Not only with Porsche cars. Smiley

    I'm not aware of one case where Porsche warranty was disclaimed due to exhaust in the US.  In fact, it's pretty common for Porsche dealers here to do the exhaust installation without issue.

    This is the law that protects the consumer on this issue:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnuson%E2%80%93Moss_Warranty_Act


    --

     

     

    73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

     


    Re: 991 GT3 RS

    Grant:
    RC:
    He knows but I doubt he will tell. Smiley

    What's your guess.  One more round of NA for the 992.1 GT3 and RS??


    --

    73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CS

    I'm hoping that the 992 GT3 or at least the 992.2GT3 will go NA+hybrid like the 918, so NA will be back and Turbo's left for their traditional application of the 911 Turbo and not for "cheating" the emissions tests on other variants. Turbo is not the future, its really not more fuel efficient in a sportscar, only if you are driving Miss Daisy like in current emissions tests, but if you actually step on the throttle it burns through fuel just the same or even more than NA. To me it seems like a stop gap measure for emissions certification until better tech is available. With a hybrid you still get the NA, but also the electric instant push (no lag) and added performance, win-win, unlike the turbo. So hopefully that tech can trickle down to the 911 and have new types of NA's? fingers crossed, would really suck if my next 911 is turbocharged Smiley


    --

    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS


    Re: 991 GT3 RS

    If they do go NA + Electric, I hope they continue to make RWD versions (and not put the electric motors on the front axle).  Also wonder if that sort of drive system lends itself to manual gearbox or just PDK?


    --

    73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi


    Re: 991 GT3 RS

    Carlos from Spain:
    Grant:
    RC:
    He knows but I doubt he will tell. Smiley

    What's your guess.  One more round of NA for the 992.1 GT3 and RS??


    --

    73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CS

    I'm hoping that the 992 GT3 or at least the 992.2GT3 will go NA+hybrid like the 918, so NA will be back and Turbo's left for their traditional application of the 911 Turbo and not for "cheating" the emissions tests on other variants. Turbo is not the future, its really not more fuel efficient in a sportscar, only if you are driving Miss Daisy like in current emissions tests, but if you actually step on the throttle it burns through fuel just the same or even more than NA. To me it seems like a stop gap measure for emissions certification until better tech is available. With a hybrid you still get the NA, but also the electric instant push (no lag) and added performance, win-win, unlike the turbo. So hopefully that tech can trickle down to the 911 and have new types of NA's? fingers crossed, would really suck if my next 911 is turbocharged Smiley

    I've read a technical paper written by Porsche engineers about the future of the Boxer engine. Here some interesting notes: "There are two different hybrid concepts – one with a large-volume, naturally aspirated engine, and the other with a downsized turbo engine. For the future, the focus must be on rightsizing and reducing complexity. 

    The topic of rightsizing needs to be reinterpreted for the future. Whereas we currently talk about rightsizing in terms of the “right degree of downsizing”, in the future a zero degree of turbocharging is also conceivable. The conflicting priorities of performance, emotionality, efficiency, weight and economy will see naturally aspirated engines be- come increasingly important again in combination with an electric drive, and they will form the basis for the design of the Porsche Boxer engine of the future – a slimmed- down engine with reduced complexity, for example through reduced variability in the valve drive and without turbocharging. This will reduce the vehicle weight and deliver emotional benefits thanks to high-speed capability and an attractive sound.

    The disadvantages of combustion engine-powered driving, such as reduced low-end torque, can be compensated with the torque of the electric machine. Operation of the combustion engine in combination with the electric machine permits realisation of the required performance range – also in continuous operation. The possibility of load point shifting also creates fuel-saving potential."


    Re: 991 GT3 RS

    That sounds promising. But I don't see how they manage to keep 6-cylinder boxer motors, add electric power, and not add significantly more weight (motors, batteries, etc.).   Not sure NA Flat-4 with Electric power would be very satisfying...


    --

     

     

    73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

     


    Re: 991 GT3 RS

    The above is a "wishful future" to justify Porsche name in engine building for the time being. There is something to be said about N/A plus electric for very high end sporty configurations like the 918 and maybe some GTx models. But for more normal cars, not so much.

    The real future is full EV.


    Re: 991 GT3 RS

    Carlos from Spain:
    Grant:
    RC:
    He knows but I doubt he will tell. Smiley

    What's your guess.  One more round of NA for the 992.1 GT3 and RS??


    --

    73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CS

    I'm hoping that the 992 GT3 or at least the 992.2GT3 will go NA+hybrid like the 918, so NA will be back and Turbo's left for their traditional application of the 911 Turbo and not for "cheating" the emissions tests on other variants. Turbo is not the future, its really not more fuel efficient in a sportscar, only if you are driving Miss Daisy like in current emissions tests, but if you actually step on the throttle it burns through fuel just the same or even more than NA. To me it seems like a stop gap measure for emissions certification until better tech is available. With a hybrid you still get the NA, but also the electric instant push (no lag) and added performance, win-win, unlike the turbo. So hopefully that tech can trickle down to the 911 and have new types of NA's? fingers crossed, would really suck if my next 911 is turbocharged Smiley

    Let's keep in mind that the GT3 R has flirted with hybrid technology on track and those that had a chance to drive it were very impressed...

    Porsche 911 GT3 R Hybrid


    Re: 991 GT3 RS

    RS 991:
    Carlos from Spain:
    Grant:
    RC:
    He knows but I doubt he will tell. Smiley

    What's your guess.  One more round of NA for the 992.1 GT3 and RS??


    --

    73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CS

    I'm hoping that the 992 GT3 or at least the 992.2GT3 will go NA+hybrid like the 918, so NA will be back and Turbo's left for their traditional application of the 911 Turbo and not for "cheating" the emissions tests on other variants. Turbo is not the future, its really not more fuel efficient in a sportscar, only if you are driving Miss Daisy like in current emissions tests, but if you actually step on the throttle it burns through fuel just the same or even more than NA. To me it seems like a stop gap measure for emissions certification until better tech is available. With a hybrid you still get the NA, but also the electric instant push (no lag) and added performance, win-win, unlike the turbo. So hopefully that tech can trickle down to the 911 and have new types of NA's? fingers crossed, would really suck if my next 911 is turbocharged Smiley

    I've read a technical paper written by Porsche engineers about the future of the Boxer engine. Here some interesting notes: "There are two different hybrid concepts – one with a large-volume, naturally aspirated engine, and the other with a downsized turbo engine. For the future, the focus must be on rightsizing and reducing complexity. 

    The topic of rightsizing needs to be reinterpreted for the future. Whereas we currently talk about rightsizing in terms of the “right degree of downsizing”, in the future a zero degree of turbocharging is also conceivable. The conflicting priorities of performance, emotionality, efficiency, weight and economy will see naturally aspirated engines be- come increasingly important again in combination with an electric drive, and they will form the basis for the design of the Porsche Boxer engine of the future – a slimmed- down engine with reduced complexity, for example through reduced variability in the valve drive and without turbocharging. This will reduce the vehicle weight and deliver emotional benefits thanks to high-speed capability and an attractive sound.

    The disadvantages of combustion engine-powered driving, such as reduced low-end torque, can be compensated with the torque of the electric machine. Operation of the combustion engine in combination with the electric machine permits realisation of the required performance range – also in continuous operation. The possibility of load point shifting also creates fuel-saving potential."

    Interesting read, and this is kind of what I'm hoping will be a reality sooner rather than later, i.e sometime with the 992 gen and not wait till the next gen.


    --

    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS


    Re: 991 GT3 RS

    Grant:

    That sounds promising. But I don't see how they manage to keep 6-cylinder boxer motors, add electric power, and not add significantly more weight (motors, batteries, etc.).   Not sure NA Flat-4 with Electric power would be very satisfying...


    --

    73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

    Think that just removing the turbo would be about 100Kg savings which is what the 991.2 gained, and the NA engine could be simpler as RS991 pointed out and therefore lighter,  not necessarily less cylinders, not sure a Flat-4 + hybrid will be enough to reach the HP figures of the time (450-500HP in the carrera and above) , and would be easier with a flat-6, but true that reasonable weight is definitely a hurdle they need to solve before they can implement it


    --

    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS


    Re: 991 GT3 RS

    IMO they will go turbocharged for the Carrera's, turbocharged + electric for Turbo (maybe Turbo S only) and NA + electric for GT cars as long the electric tech becomes lighter... 


     
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