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    Re: 991 GT3 RS

    SciFrog:

    The above is a "wishful future" to justify Porsche name in engine building for the time being. There is something to be said about N/A plus electric for very high end sporty configurations like the 918 and maybe some GTx models. But for more normal cars, not so much.

    The real future is full EV.

    I don't think you get what we like about the 911, check out the video Boxster Coupe GTS posted and see if you can get a similar experience in an EV.... we are not talking about people movers here, we are talking about sportcars.


    --

    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS


    Re: 991 GT3 RS

    RS 991:

    IMO they will go turbocharged for the Carrera's, turbocharged + electric for Turbo (maybe Turbo S only) and NA + electric for GT cars as long the electric tech becomes lighter... 

    That is a bit more realistic for the 992, but still I'm hoping, I don't want my next 992 (GTS?) to be a dulled by turbos... and a GT is not practical for me.


    --

    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS


    Re: 991 GT3 RS

    RS 991:

    IMO they will go turbocharged for the Carrera's, turbocharged + electric for Turbo (maybe Turbo S only) and NA + electric for GT cars as long the electric tech becomes lighter... 

    This is a very good assumption... Smiley Actually, exactly what I heard a while ago. The planned hybrid tech has been under scrutiny though recently, apparently it isn't at the point they need and/or want it. Quite a challenge, especially regarding space (engine bay) and even more...weight. They cannot build a GT car at 1.6 tons (I mean they could of course, but... Smiley), so the car requires a basic weight reduction to compensate for the hybrid tech. Turbo/S will have same issue but I think they managed to keep the weight at least at par with the current car.

    I still don't know if a n/a engined car with hybrid tech can be considered really a n/a car anymore because the hybrid tech will have some sort of power enhancing function and I do not know how it will influence throttle behavior and other stuff. This is going to be interesting stuff.


    --

     

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

     


    Re: 991 GT3 RS

    Turbo/S are already pretty overweight so an extra 100Kg more won't affect it much nor would the typical buyer care as much a GT buyer would, so I think the Turbo will be the easiest to implement it in if they have problems with weight reduction.


    --

     

    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

     


    Re: 991 GT3 RS

    For me and I think for many sports car lovers a true sports car will always contain an combustion engine and gear changes, this parts just make driving so emotional and this will never change. EV will be great for the daily commute and normal people. But nothing beats the interaction you have by blipping the throttle and enjoying the engine sound. 


    Re: 991 GT3 RS

    Carlos from Spain:

    Turbo/S are already pretty overweight so an extra 100Kg more won't affect it much nor would the typical buyer care as much a GT buyer would so.

    The problem is not how it affects the car (or the performance, I think that with advanced chassis, steering and aerodynamics tech, Porsche can compensate for that) but what customers will think. It is one thing to offer an overweight Panamera Turbo S but a 911 Turbo S? I'm not so sure. Unless the competition goes the same way. I doubt it though, look at the weight of the V8 Biturbo McLaren 720S and the n/a Porsche 991.2 GT3. Ouch, Porsche.


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    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)


    Re: 991 GT3 RS

    RC:
    RS 991:

    IMO they will go turbocharged for the Carrera's, turbocharged + electric for Turbo (maybe Turbo S only) and NA + electric for GT cars as long the electric tech becomes lighter... 

    This is a very good assumption... Smiley Actually, exactly what I heard a while ago. The planned hybrid tech has been under scrutiny though recently, apparently it isn't at the point they need and/or want it. Quite a challenge, especially regarding space (engine bay) and even more...weight. They cannot build a GT car at 1.6 tons (I mean they could of course, but... Smiley), so the car requires a basic weight reduction to compensate for the hybrid tech. Turbo/S will have same issue but I think they managed to keep the weight at least at par with the current car.

    I still don't know if a n/a engined car with hybrid tech can be considered really a n/a car anymore because the hybrid tech will have some sort of power enhancing function and I do not know how it will influence throttle behavior and other stuff. This is going to be interesting stuff.


    --

     

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

     

    There's still a lot of potential by further mechatronisation of the combustion engine, also as shown in the 918, that's why the V8 was so light.


    Re: 991 GT3 RS

    I believe the same, that the combustion engine still has a lot of unused potential but many large car manufacturers are scared by Tesla and the political and socio-cultural pressure to offer ELVs, so I'm afraid that at some (too early) point, they will make a big mistake and switch to ELVs completely. I still have hopes it doesn't happen.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)


    Re: 991 GT3 RS

    Did Ferrari and McLaren decide that a N/A engine with electric motors unfeasible?

    If I read the quote from Porsche engineers correctly, a combination of N/A engine and electric motors would require a smaller and reduced hp engine. With the smaller engine and additional weight, wouldn't acceleration and sound be impacted? Maybe Nick can chime in and tell us what it is like with his 918.


    --

    "A man wrapped up in himself makes for a very small bundle."


    Re: 991 GT3 RS

    nberry:

    Did Ferrari and McLaren decide that a N/A engine with electric motors unfeasible?

    If I read the quote from Porsche engineers correctly, a combination of N/A engine and electric motors would require a smaller and reduced hp engine. With the smaller engine and additional weight, wouldn't acceleration and sound be impacted? Maybe Nick can chime in and tell us what it is like with his 918.

    The secret here is actually software and make everything (hardware) work together in perfect harmony.

    New tech is already here but the question is: Will it replace turbo charged engines and/or make turbo chargers replaceable or obsolete?! We'll find out soon.+

    No, the next 911 won't be electric, not the 992.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)


    Re: 991 GT3 RS

    The 918's V8 has probably the highest hp per weight (of the engine itself) of any engine Porsche makes.  Over 600hp from only 135kg.  But it is still 4.6L, so quite a bit more displacement than any current 911 engine.  Suppose we remove the entire hybrid system and all of the associated weight...who thinks the car would be faster on some tracks this way?  

    Having a slightly smaller displacement engine would not affect sound negatively necessarily.  Some of the best sounding cars of all time are only around 3.0L in displacement.  What is more important for electric hybrids though is probably external dimensions of the engine.  I understand that all of the Porsche flat 6 have about the same external dimensions.


    Re: 991 GT3 RS

    vantagesc:

    The 918's V8 has probably the highest hp per weight (of the engine itself) of any engine Porsche makes.  Over 600hp from only 135kg.  But it is still 4.6L, so quite a bit more displacement than any current 911 engine.  Suppose we remove the entire hybrid system and all of the associated weight...who thinks the car would be faster on some tracks this way?  

    I assume that with some tweaking and top notch materials/cooling/thermodynamics, Porsche could squeeze 650 to 700 hp out of this engine. Lower weight (no hybrid) and maybe a modern AWD system (918 has AWD, I know that but because of the hybrid setup) and I assume that the car could achieve the performance of the 918 without hybrid. Would be interesting to learn if Porsche did some testing in this regard.

    Having a slightly smaller displacement engine would not affect sound negatively necessarily.  Some of the best sounding cars of all time are only around 3.0L in displacement.  What is more important for electric hybrids though is probably external dimensions of the engine.  I understand that all of the Porsche flat 6 have about the same external dimensions.

    Many decades ago maybe... Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)


    Re: 991 GT3 RS

    700HP from the 4.6 in the 918 would be a big stretch.

    The bottom end is already quite gutless if you ask me. But even with saying that, the bottom end power is still there without the electric help. If I drive on Sport mode, it's basically engine power and I know exactly where on the throttle the e-motors kick in, lots of time I stay off that part and just use the gas engine, and the acceleration is nothing short of explosive, With electric help it is mind boggling. The hybrid helper in the car is just, amazing, the weight basically disappears. I have had quite a few racers that took my car on my track, they were astonished at how the car can handles, they only asked about the weight AFTER the drive and that amazes them even more, no one ever question about the weight of the car, it is only an issue with journalists that needed to find something to write about, 

    Someone did a back to back between my 918 and a P1, his first comment is that the P1 is way under tire and the power cannot be put down at all, the 918 seems to have limitless grip on the other hand. I won't name names however.

    If Porsche really wanted do it, the 918 could have had a 650 HP engine, perhaps 200kg less weight, but the resulting car would be barely better than the CGT, not the thing they want as a halo car after 10 years. That's why the current 918 was born, to separate it completely from the CGT performance-wise, and they did, the CGT can't even hope to keep pace with the 918.

    Only thing that's holding the 918 back is the tires, without the ECO certification Porsche so clamoured with, it will be a lot quicker. 

    But then again, who else can produce a ECO friendly car with such performance.

    Porsche tuned the 918 engine for the top end, they knew the hybrid system will take care of the low and middle end, and when the hubris system gives up, that's where the gas engine take over, which is exactly how real world experience tells us, electric car have amazing bottom end and acceptable middle and horrible top end, Porsche tuned the gas engine to take care of that. 

    There is only one sweet spot for electric cars, that's the bottom end, and for North American purposes, that;'s quite enough, as North Americans don't care for top end power, they only pay attention to bottom end numbers. 

     

     


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    Re: 991 GT3 RS

    So it will be interesting to see how their next Halo car will look alike...maybe around 2025? All electric? indecision angry


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)


    Re: 991 GT3 RS

    I was behind a 918 yesterday (gorgeous car from the rear, had me salivating; not so much the front end) and there was no exhaust sound. He even accelerated to dart between my car and another and no exhaust sound. It was as though the car teleported to the open space. Amazing acceleration! 

    And no Leawood he did not signal. 


    --

     

    "A man wrapped up in himself makes for a very small bundle."

     


    Re: 991 GT3 RS

    I believe the "992" GT3 (or whatever they call it) will remain naturally aspirated, based on the following:

    - Porsche has a captive audience of people who want to buy a $150-$200K car that has a high revving, high performance naturally aspirated engine, with a transmission choice. There is no credible, direct competition in the space. Limited overlap with American NA performance car market (Corvette, GT350) due to price, market positioning, Porsche branding, etc. The stablemate R8 / Huracan is not a direct competitor, either.

    - Porsche spent considerable funds to "fix" (hopefully) the engine issues of the .1 motors, and they are racing an engine based on this update.  It's not characteristic Porsche corporate behavior to change direction suddenly; everything is deliberate.  They have not historically discarded bespoke engines after a short lifespan; they will want to amortize the unit over many examples (recall that the business case for the 996 Mezger road engine necessitated usage in GT3 and the Turbo)

    For those reasons, I think the 992 will feature the following: 

    An evolved 4.0 flat six that revs to 9,000 RPM (or a bit more) that produces a bit over 500 bhp (maybe 515 bhp - they will dribble out the power bumps in small and empirically slight increments because they need to make the engine last awhile and they have to build in a margin for the successive 3RS models to have something additional for a more expensive car beyond big wing and funky color; plus, they CAN because they have such a captive audience, as detailed above).

    Choice of PDK or Manual, at least in the GT3 (the engineering cost is sunk, as long as they continue evolving the same engine they will be able to offer both transmissions).

    They will make the next gen Nurburgring times that are essential for marketing by using the latest tires, more aero, etc. Once more, as detailed above, there is substantial demand for such a car.

    For those reasons I'm confident in my decision to hold my 991.1 GT3 and sit on the sidelines for the 991.2 generation and order a 992 GT3 with European Delivery in 2020/2021. If I can't buy a 992 GT3 with a high revving (9K+ 500 bhp+) engine then I'll just buy a used 991.2, but I'm willing to gamble - I've followed the company for a long time, and I believe I have a strong observational understanding about how they think about development resources.

    I believe that the 992 Carrera could be shown as early as the Paris auto show in 2018 - i.e. fall of 2018 - and the final 991.2 cars will probably overlap with the new car's production, as happened with the 997.2 GT2 RS and 997.2 GT3 RS 4.0.

    Precedent:

    Geneva 2013 = 991.1 GT3
    Geneva 2014 = No GTx car (stop sale ongoing)
    Geneva 2015 = 991.1 GT3 RS
    Geneva 2016 = 991.1 911 R
    Geneva 2017 = 991.2 GT3 (following a September 2015 991.2 Carrera debut)

    Speculated:

    Geneva 2018 = 991.2 GT3 RS
    Paris 2018 = 992 Carrera
    Geneva 2020 = 992 GT3


    Re: 991 GT3 RS

    This is quite a newbie post - welcome! I would t be surprised if you are correct. 


    --

    Tesla Model S P100D & Model X P90D & 2016 BMW i8 & 2014 991 TTS Cab - Sept 991.2 GT3 ordered. 2017 Porsche Mission E on order


    Re: 991 GT3 RS

    Thanks; I've been around for awhile (I post a good bit on Rennlist but appreciate the discourse here as well).

     


    Re: 991 GT3 RS

    All sounds reasonable except that I am not sure these NA engines ( which I am a huge fan of) will keep performance competitive with turbocharged torque monsters which points to Porsche going the turbo route as well on GT models.


    Re: 991 GT3 RS

    crayphile:

    All sounds reasonable except that I am not sure these NA engines ( which I am a huge fan of) will keep performance competitive with turbocharged torque monsters which points to Porsche going the turbo route as well on GT models.

    100% agree


    Re: 991 GT3 RS

    BjoernB:
    crayphile:

    All sounds reasonable except that I am not sure these NA engines ( which I am a huge fan of) will keep performance competitive with turbocharged torque monsters which points to Porsche going the turbo route as well on GT models.

    100% agree

    +1


    --

    2015 981 Cayman GT4 | Powerkit White - The fastest car on Rennteam
    2013 Audi S3 | Glacier White


    Re: 991 GT3 RS

    AP said in an interview that there was still room for exploiting the new GT3/CUP engine further. Maybe it will be enough for a whole 992 (.1&.2) cycle  Porsche's bhp increments come in small steps anyway. But like crayphile said, if the competition is sailing away with turbos then Porsche needs to jump on board aswell.


    Re: 991 GT3 RS

    AP said a lot indecision 


    --

    2015 981 Cayman GT4 | Powerkit White - The fastest car on Rennteam
    2013 Audi S3 | Glacier White


    Re: 991 GT3 RS

    Yes, like that we would be able to order the bucket seats without that silly stripe that no one wants mail


    Re: 991 GT3 RS

    Gauss:

    Yes, like that we would be able to order the bucket seats without that silly stripe that no one wants mail

    That delete will be available for the special edition last run 991 GT3 ( gen 3 ) .

    You've heard it form The Hairy Chest Advisor first,,,  okay! Smiley... 


    --

    throt

    "I Have Done It!".

    991 GT3 pick up in October 2014.

    Rennteam Hairy Chest Advisor.


    Re: 991 GT3 RS

    Gauss:

    Yes, like that we would be able to order the bucket seats without that silly stripe that no one wants mail

    I actually like it... Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)


    Re: 991 GT3 RS

    RC:
    Gauss:

    Yes, like that we would be able to order the bucket seats without that silly stripe that no one wants mail

    I actually like it... Smiley

    Hahaha, I hate the stripe but love yuuuuggge wings. On both counts your the opposite but we are of the same age. Definitely all a personal preference then. Smiley Smiley...


    --

    throt

    "I Have Done It!".

    991 GT3 pick up in October 2014.

    Rennteam Hairy Chest Advisor.


    Re: 991 GT3 RS

    throt:
    RC:
    Gauss:

    Yes, like that we would be able to order the bucket seats without that silly stripe that no one wants mail

    I actually like it... Smiley

    Hahaha, I hate the stripe but love yuuuuggge wings. On both counts your the opposite but we are of the same age. Definitely all a personal preference then. Smiley Smiley...

    I like the wing on the GT3 RS...as weird as this may sound, it just fits the whole car and look of that car. GT3? Not so much but believe me or not, sometimes I get used to wings. Never believed I would like the R8 wing but now, I do. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)


    Re: 991 GT3 RS

    RC:
    throt:
    RC:
    Gauss:

    Yes, like that we would be able to order the bucket seats without that silly stripe that no one wants mail

    I actually like it... Smiley

    Hahaha, I hate the stripe but love yuuuuggge wings. On both counts your the opposite but we are of the same age. Definitely all a personal preference then. Smiley Smiley...

    I like the wing on the GT3 RS...as weird as this may sound, it just fits the whole car and look of that car. GT3? Not so much but believe me or not, sometimes I get used to wings. Never believed I would like the R8 wing but now, I do. Smiley

    Wait a minute, you like the wing on the GT3 RS better, because it is bigger, yet on the other hand, you like the wing of your R8? That's not even a wing, but a teeny-weeny spoiler at best Smiley


    Re: 991 GT3 RS

    Gauss:
    RC:
    throt:
    RC:
    Gauss:

    Yes, like that we would be able to order the bucket seats without that silly stripe that no one wants mail

    I actually like it... Smiley

    Hahaha, I hate the stripe but love yuuuuggge wings. On both counts your the opposite but we are of the same age. Definitely all a personal preference then. Smiley Smiley...

    I like the wing on the GT3 RS...as weird as this may sound, it just fits the whole car and look of that car. GT3? Not so much but believe me or not, sometimes I get used to wings. Never believed I would like the R8 wing but now, I do. Smiley

    Wait a minute, you like the wing on the GT3 RS better, because it is bigger, yet on the other hand, you like the wing of your R8? That's not even a wing, but a teeny-weeny spoiler at best Smiley

    It is big enough to create a whopping 150 kg downforce at top speed. Smiley

    I may be wrong here but I think this is a tiny bit more than the 991.1 GT3 rear wing creates... Smiley

    Don't forget that the R8 not only has a rear wing but also a massive rear diffuser which "adds" to the wing quite well.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)


     
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