Crown

Board: Porsche - 911 - 997 - Turbo Language: English Region: Worldwide Share/Save/Bookmark Close

Forum - Thread


    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    Quote:
    Walter said:
    Quote:
    franki68 said:
    Autocar's best handling car (which the Nissan won) illustrated how fast you can corner it,the car was fractionally slower over a road course than the LP560,but the GTR was limited to 112mph,now the gallardo hit over 135mph on some sections,they said without the limiter the GTR would have been 3-4 seconds quicker than the gallardo which is a formidable car.



    They won't believe you until someone posts a video.
    Autocar: Britain's best driver's car

    IIRC Steve Sutcliff (sp?) was the journalist that wrote an article about why he was sure that Nissan cheated on the Nurburgring. And now, he knows that a GT-R with a speed limiter can keep up with a LP560-4.



    But no one is claiming that the LP560 does 7:29 at the ring, and according to Sport Auto the LP560 is slower than the GT2 around the Hockenheim short track.

    Why do you and AUM keep trying to make this a Porsche versus Nissan thing? Its a Nissan claim versus objective logic. If I had to put money on it, the 7:29 is not legit time without an asterisk. Are you and AUM willing to make the same bet?

    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    real world GTR results far from fantastic This from the past weekend NASA race at Eagle's Canyon. The GTR was slower than a Civic, an E36, RX7, Z06

    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    Quote:
    thuggy said:
    Why do you and AUM keep trying to make this a Porsche versus Nissan thing? Its a Nissan claim versus objective logic. If I had to put money on it, the 7:29 is not legit time without an asterisk. Are you and AUM willing to make the same bet?



    According to Quattroruote, the LP560-4 is as fast as the GT2 and according to an American magazine it faster than the GT2.

    And again, many sources state that the GT-R is as fast if not faster than the GT2. Fast tracks, slow tracks, it doesn't matter. It always delivers what it promised.

    That's why I believe that it could match the GT2's time on the Nurburgring.

    BTW in the test than someone above posted, I believe the GT-R was faster than the GT Street on the track.

    Now let's get back to what someone from Prosche said. Who believes that the 997 Turbo can do a 7:38 which is only 4 seconds slower than the GT2?

    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    Quote:
    AUM said:
    Please supply test data evidence to back up your opinions and assumptions. I expect moderators to be more objective and better informed.

    Only one test was in Japan the rest were n the USA and UK. And yes I read many of the tests and saw the data. The GTR corners faster than the GT2.



    I will just repeat this:

    Compared to a GT2 the GTR:

    - is about 200kg heavier (if not more)
    - has 50hp less
    - has no cup tires
    - has AWD (no AWD car has been faster than a comparable RWD version in recent years)

    In this light it is impossible that the GTR will be able to get close to a GT2 or Scuderia on a regular race track. The only reliable test so far is the QR test done by Alain Prost (where the GTR was much, much slower than cuderia and GT2). The US stuff yields strange results (mentioned the R8 vs. GT2 wonder already) and, BTW, in most cases shows that the GT2 is faster by quite a margin. The Japanese stuff you can safely ignore - this is pure entertainment. Maybe somebody can post the UK test - I did not read it yet.

    What is your bet regarding the Sportauto Supertest times of the GTR? My guess: 7.45 NBR and 1.11 HHR. Want to bet? Just name the amount you are willing to invest. Let's see how seriously you believe in the nonsense you use to post recently

    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    Quote:
    thuggy said:
    Quote:
    Walter said:
    Quote:
    franki68 said:
    Autocar's best handling car (which the Nissan won) illustrated how fast you can corner it,the car was fractionally slower over a road course than the LP560,but the GTR was limited to 112mph,now the gallardo hit over 135mph on some sections,they said without the limiter the GTR would have been 3-4 seconds quicker than the gallardo which is a formidable car.



    They won't believe you until someone posts a video.
    Autocar: Britain's best driver's car

    IIRC Steve Sutcliff (sp?) was the journalist that wrote an article about why he was sure that Nissan cheated on the Nurburgring. And now, he knows that a GT-R with a speed limiter can keep up with a LP560-4.



    But no one is claiming that the LP560 does 7:29 at the ring, and according to Sport Auto the LP560 is slower than the GT2 around the Hockenheim short track.

    Why do you and AUM keep trying to make this a Porsche versus Nissan thing? Its a Nissan claim versus objective logic. If I had to put money on it, the 7:29 is not legit time without an asterisk. Are you and AUM willing to make the same bet?



    Just had the same idea

    Lets bet for money. This is the ultimate test to what degree AUM believes in what he writes

    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    Quote:
    Walter said:
    Quote:
    thuggy said:
    Why do you and AUM keep trying to make this a Porsche versus Nissan thing? Its a Nissan claim versus objective logic. If I had to put money on it, the 7:29 is not legit time without an asterisk. Are you and AUM willing to make the same bet?



    According to Quattroruote, the LP560-4 is as fast as the GT2 and according to an American magazine it faster than the GT2.

    And again, many sources state that the GT-R is as fast if not faster than the GT2. Fast tracks, slow tracks, it doesn't matter. It always delivers what it promised.

    That's why I believe that it could match the GT2's time on the Nurburgring.

    BTW in the test than someone above posted, I believe the GT-R was faster than the GT Street on the track.

    Now let's get back to what someone from Prosche said. Who believes that the 997 Turbo can do a 7:38 which is only 4 seconds slower than the GT2?



    The LP560-4 was slower than the GT2 in QR as well as in SportAuto.

    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    Quote:
    AUM said:
    People who habitually base their opinions on assumptions rather than facts and test data may not be suitable as moderators.



    I don't think you know what a forum moderator is AUM, (which BTW is not your place to question), I think you are getting "forum moderator" confused with "oracle"

    Also when people express opinions, some opinions are based on assumptions (not everything discussed can have facts around it, ex: GT-R NRing time) and other opinions are based on facts, and moderators are just as free to express them as anybody else.

    When discussing sportcars, especially one doesn't even exist here in Europe yet and don't even know its specs, the "you don't have the facts and I do" card is easy to play in a discussion but not very effective.

    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    Quote:
    AUM said:
    Quote:
    Carlos from Spain said:
    Quote:
    AUM said:
    Please supply test data evidence to back up your opinions and assumptions. I expect moderators to be more objective and better informed.



    Quit playing the mderator card, it shows lack of argumentation, and so far its been a good discussion. You should be more open to other's opinions hold not understimate the knowledge of people you don't know about.



    People who habitually base their opinions on assumptions rather than facts and test data may not be suitable as moderators.



    We will make sure to ask for your approval the next time. It is great to have such a brilliant guy on board

    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    Quote:
    MKSGR said:What is your bet regarding the Sportauto Supertest times of the GTR? My guess: 7.45 NBR and 1.11 HHR. Want to bet?



    7:45 is my guess to, maybe even couple seconds less if conditions are right, and the tranny doesn't blow

    I just wish Saurma could get his hands on an Euro-spec customer GT-R and get this all over with.

    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    Quote:
    Carlos from Spain said:
    Quote:
    MKSGR said:What is your bet regarding the Sportauto Supertest times of the GTR? My guess: 7.45 NBR and 1.11 HHR. Want to bet?



    7:45 is my guess to, maybe even couple seconds less if conditions are right, and the tranny doesn't blow

    I just wish Saurma could get his hands on an Euro-spec customer GT-R and get this all over with.



    Maybe they will start the Supertest with 5 GTRs in parallel - at least one should lap the entire NBR

    Let's see whether AUM is willing to bet that the GTR is close to 7.33 and 1.09,7 (the times of the GT2). If he believes in what he posts he should be in a position to accept a bet

    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    Quote:
    Carlos from Spain said:
    Quote:
    MKSGR said:What is your bet regarding the Sportauto Supertest times of the GTR? My guess: 7.45 NBR and 1.11 HHR. Want to bet?




    7:45 is my guess to, maybe even couple seconds less if conditions are right, and the tranny doesn't blow

    I just wish Saurma could get his hands on an Euro-spec customer GT-R and get this all over with.



    Since we are playing guessing games what would the Suzuki Ring time be in the same GTR on the same day as a 7.45 HvS lap?

    In the meantime let's stick to the independent tests that already exist as the best indicators of true performance.

    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    Quote:
    AUM said:
    Quote:
    Carlos from Spain said:
    Quote:
    MKSGR said:What is your bet regarding the Sportauto Supertest times of the GTR? My guess: 7.45 NBR and 1.11 HHR. Want to bet?



    Since we are playing guessing games what would the Suzuki Ring time be in the same GTR on the same day as a 7.45 HvS lap?

    7:45 is my guess to, maybe even couple seconds less if conditions are right, and the tranny doesn't blow

    I just wish Saurma could get his hands on an Euro-spec customer GT-R and get this all over with.





    Not that easy You claim that the GTR is as fast as the GT2 (or comes close to the GT2's performance).

    Now, life tells us that is easy to TALK about many things. A different thing is to believe in its judgement enough to take out a bet (let it be a business decision or a real bet).

    What I ask you is: are you prepared to bet that your theory (GTR as fast as GT2) will be confirmed by the Supertest? You have frequently confirmed that you accept the Supertest as the best benchmark in the car magazine space. I would love to place a bet as I am 100% convinced that I will win

    In essence: stop the BS game - let's test HOW convinced everybody is about the stuff he writes. If I should win you could share the loss with Walter

    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    Quote:
    AUM said:
    Quote:
    Carlos from Spain said:
    Quote:
    MKSGR said:What is your bet regarding the Sportauto Supertest times of the GTR? My guess: 7.45 NBR and 1.11 HHR. Want to bet?




    7:45 is my guess to, maybe even couple seconds less if conditions are right, and the tranny doesn't blow

    I just wish Saurma could get his hands on an Euro-spec customer GT-R and get this all over with.



    Since we are playing guessing games what would the Suzuki Ring time be in the same GTR on the same day as a 7.45 HvS lap?

    In the meantime let's stick to the independent tests that already exist as the best indicators of true performance.



    How about Motortrend comparison then? Around Laguna Seca GT-R was only marginally faster then Audi R8. How is that possible?

    Regarding UK's tests... Interesting that 997 GT2 is underperformer in ALL UK's tests... Maybe UK press guys need some accomodation to manual gearbox after driving DCTs or sequentials...

    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    Quote:
    KresoF1 said:
    Regarding UK's tests... Interesting that 997 GT2 is underperformer in ALL UK's tests...



    I have not really followed test reports that closely recently, but I also "thought" I had noticed that all UK tests of GT2 had not produced spectacular results.
    Has anyone noticed if all UK tests have been carried out with the same press car?

    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    Quote:
    KresoF1 said:
    How about Motortrend comparison then? Around Laguna Seca GT-R was only marginally faster then Audi R8. How is that possible?



    The R8 was also 1.5 seconds faster than the 997 Turbo and it was as fast as the Z06.

    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    We cannot rely on any one test to determine a cars true performance (even the most hallow Sport Auto Supertest). There are many reasons for lap times and other performance data to vary. In order to get a true indication of any car's performance we need many tests by many credible publications. When we have ten or more authorities all reporting similar results we start to have some certainty about a car's true performance.

    Testing of the GTR is still not complete but the results of the tests so far indicate astonishing cornering speeds and grip levels with lap times ahead of the Turbo and close to the GT2 (despite being slower in a straight line). When we deny this growing and conclusive body of evidence we start to look like flat-earth-believers who cannot come to terms with a new reality.

    A similar situation occurred with the release of the 997 Turbo. Most testers were disappointed with the car's tricky-at-the-limit handling. This provoked an avalanche of disbelief and outrage against the motoring press from Turbo lovers. Time has proven those reports to be quite accurate.

    Perhaps it is time for a more open and mature approach to the GTR. I do not like its styling, image, weight, size - and there are reliability questions. All of this can be debated according to personal opinion and preferences. But from a performance perspective the body of evidence from more than a dozen independent tests is clear: The GTR has raised the bar considerably.

    "We just finished our V8 saloons group test and will be publishing our conclusions in the next few days. We were quite pleased with the lap times that were set around Silverstone GP's circuit, but none of our 400+ bhp saloons got within 5 seconds of the lap time we set with the GT-R, not even close and they are all the same kind of price. That's puts the GT-R's pace more in perspective. " SteveD Drivers Republic

    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    The Sport Auto Supertest is the ultimate authority on Ring times. SA have been using the same driver (HvS) and testing procedures for years. This removes some of the main variables and lends the results credibility. But there are other variables, including track conditions, weather and driver familiarity that need to be taken into account.

    Many of us are eagerly awaiting the Sport Auto Ring time for the GTR. Many European sports car owners and fans want the time to be less than Nissan's 7.29 claim. We cannot tolerate an ugly Nissan being as quick as the best of Porsche. HvS is well aware of all this and must be under some considerable pressure to ensure that the status quo is not disturbed. HvS is also unfamiliar with the GTR and it is unlikely he can lap as fast as Suzuki on the same day in the same GTR. How many seconds difference is debatable. But Suzuki will certainly be faster.

    So even the SA test will not be conclusive and accepted by everyone and the GTR debate will continue until enough customer cars are at the Ring and the reality of its performance becomes evident to everyone. Stay tuned!

    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    Quote:
    thuggy said:
    Quote:
    Walter said:
    Quote:
    franki68 said:
    Autocar's best handling car (which the Nissan won) illustrated how fast you can corner it,the car was fractionally slower over a road course than the LP560,but the GTR was limited to 112mph,now the gallardo hit over 135mph on some sections,they said without the limiter the GTR would have been 3-4 seconds quicker than the gallardo which is a formidable car.



    They won't believe you until someone posts a video.
    Autocar: Britain's best driver's car

    IIRC Steve Sutcliff (sp?) was the journalist that wrote an article about why he was sure that Nissan cheated on the Nurburgring. And now, he knows that a GT-R with a speed limiter can keep up with a LP560-4.



    But no one is claiming that the LP560 does 7:29 at the ring, and according to Sport Auto the LP560 is slower than the GT2 around the Hockenheim short track.

    Why do you and AUM keep trying to make this a Porsche versus Nissan thing? Its a Nissan claim versus objective logic. If I had to put money on it, the 7:29 is not legit time without an asterisk. Are you and AUM willing to make the same bet?



    As I said ring times are worthless indicators of a cars prowess,so I really do not care what NIssan say.To claim Nissan 'cheat' when every manufacturer cheats on ring times is the problem.
    I am simply pointing out every time a car comes along that matches or beats a 911 loads of people on here start bleating about a load of irrelevant rubbish,we saw it with the R8 and again now with the GTR.
    Here's the Autocar test.


    http://www.autocar.co.uk/VideosWallpapers/Videos.aspx?AR=235168&CT=V

    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    Quote:
    AUM said:
    The Sport Auto Supertest is the ultimate authority on Ring times. SA have been using the same driver (HvS) and testing procedures for years. This removes some of the main variables and lends the results credibility. But there are other variables, including track conditions, weather and driver familiarity that need to be taken into account.

    Many of us are eagerly awaiting the Sport Auto Ring time for the GTR. Many European sports car owners and fans want the time to be less than Nissan's 7.29 claim. We cannot tolerate an ugly Nissan being as quick as the best of Porsche. HvS is well aware of all this and must be under some considerable pressure to ensure that the status quo is not disturbed. HvS is also unfamiliar with the GTR and it is unlikely he can lap as fast as Suzuki on the same day in the same GTR. How many seconds difference is debatable. But Suzuki will certainly be faster.

    So even the SA test will not be conclusive and accepted by everyone and the GTR debate will continue until enough customer cars are at the Ring and the reality of its performance becomes evident to everyone. Stay tuned!



    You did not yet answer my question: are you willing to bet that the Supertest results of the GTR will be close to the GT2 (7.33, 1.09,7)? My feeling is that you rather agree that the GTR will never deliver these results but rather get a 7.45 and 1.11 (as we anticipate). If so, you can just agree with our view

    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Quote:
    AUM said:
    The Sport Auto Supertest is the ultimate authority on Ring times. SA have been using the same driver (HvS) and testing procedures for years. This removes some of the main variables and lends the results credibility. But there are other variables, including track conditions, weather and driver familiarity that need to be taken into account.

    Many of us are eagerly awaiting the Sport Auto Ring time for the GTR. Many European sports car owners and fans want the time to be less than Nissan's 7.29 claim. We cannot tolerate an ugly Nissan being as quick as the best of Porsche. HvS is well aware of all this and must be under some considerable pressure to ensure that the status quo is not disturbed. HvS is also unfamiliar with the GTR and it is unlikely he can lap as fast as Suzuki on the same day in the same GTR. How many seconds difference is debatable. But Suzuki will certainly be faster.

    So even the SA test will not be conclusive and accepted by everyone and the GTR debate will continue until enough customer cars are at the Ring and the reality of its performance becomes evident to everyone. Stay tuned!



    You did not yet answer my question: are you willing to bet that the Supertest results of the GTR will be close to the GT2 (7.33, 1.09,7)? My feeling is that you rather agree that the GTR will never deliver these results but rather get a 7.45 and 1.11 (as we anticipate). If so, you can just agree with our view



    The whole thrust of my position is based on actual tests not guesses. That is our fundamental difference. You like to guess and assume. I never bet on anything or assume anything I don't know. I wait for evidence.

    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time


    Track Report - My GT-R compared to my GT3

    http://www.gtr.co.uk/forum/106151-track-report-my-gt-r-compared-my-gt3.html

    Took the GT-R and my 997 GT3 to the local track. Until now I had not driven both cars at the same track on the same day.

    The GT3 is clearly the "track natural" of the two. Spectacular handling - very flat, great balance, amazing grip, smooth transitions, perfectly weighted. Decent power (could handle more). Intoxication sound at 8400 rpm! Feels very solid, but not too heavy. As I had expected, the GT3 was better at turn-in and corner entry. No understeer at all. Very precise. (Surprisingly the brakes felt soft, with lots of pedal travel after driving the GT-R. Never noticed this when I am only driving the GT-3).

    The GT-R was the torquier/stronger of the two. Very easy to drive fast - almost effortless. Power was intoxicating as was the easy/fast/smooth shifting from the transmission - can actually shift mid-turn with the accelerator floored and still not upset the car. While the GT-R feels heavy and tends to understeer going into the turns, once settled in the turn, its ability to power out of the turns, without drama was excellent.The GT-R was clearly better from mid-turn to corner exit, and this tended to give the GT-R a higher speed at the end of each straight section post-turn.

    We ran the cars simultaneously with my son and I taking turns in each car and swapping leader/follower, and concluded that the cars are pretty evenly matched in the hands of experienced but non-pro drivers. In the final analysis, the GT-R is probably a touch quicker, because of it superior corner exit speeds and ability to put power down ie. brilliant 4 wheel drive system, and inspires more confidence since it tends to be more stable, error resistant, and the paddle shifters allow one to fully concentrate on braking and turning.
    The GT-3 is more engaging and more of a natural "track car". The GT-R uses its technology to comensate for its inherent weight disadvantage.

    All in all, two outstanding, if very different cars, quite closely matched.

    We aslo had a 996 Twin Turbo on the track. It performed quite well, achieving quite good terminal speeds at the end of the straights (felt as strong as the GT-R). However, it was no match for either of the other cars as a track car. It tended to understeer more, and its 4 wheel drive system was more of a disadvantage (undesteer, extra weight) than an advantage.

    However, as a reminder of how finely balanced the GT-3 is, up to 99.9%, on one of the turns late in the session, I was driving briskly, but not overly aggressive. I had the suspension set to stiff. Went over a small perturbation mid turn, on a turn that I have done probably 500 times, and the rear end instantly snapped, rotating me into the grass. My son, who was chasing me in the GT-R said there was NO indication that this was about to happen. Good reminder what 66% weight on the rear wheels can do once the pendulum starts to swing!!

    Anyhow, two great cars - and a lot of fun to boot. (If only I had not put the Z06 away for winter, it would be interesting to test the GT-R against it at the track.)

    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    Quote:
    AUM said:
    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Quote:
    AUM said:
    The Sport Auto Supertest is the ultimate authority on Ring times. SA have been using the same driver (HvS) and testing procedures for years. This removes some of the main variables and lends the results credibility. But there are other variables, including track conditions, weather and driver familiarity that need to be taken into account.

    Many of us are eagerly awaiting the Sport Auto Ring time for the GTR. Many European sports car owners and fans want the time to be less than Nissan's 7.29 claim. We cannot tolerate an ugly Nissan being as quick as the best of Porsche. HvS is well aware of all this and must be under some considerable pressure to ensure that the status quo is not disturbed. HvS is also unfamiliar with the GTR and it is unlikely he can lap as fast as Suzuki on the same day in the same GTR. How many seconds difference is debatable. But Suzuki will certainly be faster.

    So even the SA test will not be conclusive and accepted by everyone and the GTR debate will continue until enough customer cars are at the Ring and the reality of its performance becomes evident to everyone. Stay tuned!



    You did not yet answer my question: are you willing to bet that the Supertest results of the GTR will be close to the GT2 (7.33, 1.09,7)? My feeling is that you rather agree that the GTR will never deliver these results but rather get a 7.45 and 1.11 (as we anticipate). If so, you can just agree with our view



    The whole thrust of my position is based on actual tests not guesses. That is our fundamental difference. You like to guess and assume. I never bet on anything or assume anything I don't know. I wait for evidence.



    That is a nice way to put that you are not sure enough about your views to place bets on them. I am 100% sure of my view of the GTR

    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Quote:
    AUM said:
    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Quote:
    AUM said:
    The Sport Auto Supertest is the ultimate authority on Ring times. SA have been using the same driver (HvS) and testing procedures for years. This removes some of the main variables and lends the results credibility. But there are other variables, including track conditions, weather and driver familiarity that need to be taken into account.

    Many of us are eagerly awaiting the Sport Auto Ring time for the GTR. Many European sports car owners and fans want the time to be less than Nissan's 7.29 claim. We cannot tolerate an ugly Nissan being as quick as the best of Porsche. HvS is well aware of all this and must be under some considerable pressure to ensure that the status quo is not disturbed. HvS is also unfamiliar with the GTR and it is unlikely he can lap as fast as Suzuki on the same day in the same GTR. How many seconds difference is debatable. But Suzuki will certainly be faster.

    So even the SA test will not be conclusive and accepted by everyone and the GTR debate will continue until enough customer cars are at the Ring and the reality of its performance becomes evident to everyone. Stay tuned!



    You did not yet answer my question: are you willing to bet that the Supertest results of the GTR will be close to the GT2 (7.33, 1.09,7)? My feeling is that you rather agree that the GTR will never deliver these results but rather get a 7.45 and 1.11 (as we anticipate). If so, you can just agree with our view



    The whole thrust of my position is based on actual tests not guesses. That is our fundamental difference. You like to guess and assume. I never bet on anything or assume anything I don't know. I wait for evidence.



    That is a nice way to put that you are not sure enough about your views to place bets on them. I am 100% sure of my view of the GTR



    Your 100% certainty in your unverified opinions is obvious.

    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    Quote:
    AUM said:
    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Quote:
    AUM said:
    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Quote:
    AUM said:
    The Sport Auto Supertest is the ultimate authority on Ring times. SA have been using the same driver (HvS) and testing procedures for years. This removes some of the main variables and lends the results credibility. But there are other variables, including track conditions, weather and driver familiarity that need to be taken into account.

    Many of us are eagerly awaiting the Sport Auto Ring time for the GTR. Many European sports car owners and fans want the time to be less than Nissan's 7.29 claim. We cannot tolerate an ugly Nissan being as quick as the best of Porsche. HvS is well aware of all this and must be under some considerable pressure to ensure that the status quo is not disturbed. HvS is also unfamiliar with the GTR and it is unlikely he can lap as fast as Suzuki on the same day in the same GTR. How many seconds difference is debatable. But Suzuki will certainly be faster.

    So even the SA test will not be conclusive and accepted by everyone and the GTR debate will continue until enough customer cars are at the Ring and the reality of its performance becomes evident to everyone. Stay tuned!



    You did not yet answer my question: are you willing to bet that the Supertest results of the GTR will be close to the GT2 (7.33, 1.09,7)? My feeling is that you rather agree that the GTR will never deliver these results but rather get a 7.45 and 1.11 (as we anticipate). If so, you can just agree with our view



    The whole thrust of my position is based on actual tests not guesses. That is our fundamental difference. You like to guess and assume. I never bet on anything or assume anything I don't know. I wait for evidence.



    That is a nice way to put that you are not sure enough about your views to place bets on them. I am 100% sure of my view of the GTR



    Your 100% certainty in your unverified opinions is obvious.



    See: that is the problem with your posts. Your posts are full of praise for a car you have never driven (for obvious reasons as the car does not even exist in the configuration relevant for our market). You ignore certain test results and state that a number of tests (which are dubious to say the least) confirm that the car sets "a new benchmark". You state (implicitly) that the GTR is the first car in history that beats cars that are several 100kg lighter, more powerful, well balanced, equipped with cup tires etc. etc. You repeat all this again again again and again.

    But when it actually comes to TESTING your REAL background and judgement you are extremely risk averse. Needless to mention that you did not invest any money in the GTR either (I assume that reading your other post about CSL/GTR).

    If you believed in all this BS you should act accordingly. Life is not about talking but doing.

    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    There are texts being copied and pasted word by word on two different threads about the exact same subject yet different sections so we are going to close this thread and the discussion will continue solely on the other thread:

    http://www.rennteam.com/showflat.php?Cat...;vc=1&nt=13

    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    AUM:
    The Nissan 7.29 claim cannot be proved or disproved so let's stick to what we know from independent tests. The GTR laps very close to the GT2 in most tests. http://www.fastestlaps.com/index.php?page_id=compare&car1=4717b80e35715&car2=46a06c22ab41a

    Given this evidence it seems possible that the GTR and GT2 are also close at the Ring. We know the GT2 Ring time. Why not come to terms with the fact that the GTR is a very fast car (with styling, image and maybe reliability problems). And wait for the Sport Auto test for the final verdict.

    Witch hunts lower the standing of Porsche owners.

    Just found something very interesting (connected to our previous discussions on the GTR):

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrd8VzfZzN8

     In short, this video shows a US test of the GTR vs. GT3 in "Willow Springs" (this is one of the few test tracks in AUM's above link where the GTR is remarkably fast compared to the GT2). In the video link I posted above the GTR is 4s faster than the GTR... 

     Now, the video link  highlights why summary tables found somewhere in the Internet can be "dangerous" andgrossly misleading when it comes to comparing the performance of sports cars...

    Watching the video my conclusion is clear: "Willow Springs" suffers from a number of serious problems, each making this track rather useless for professional car comparisons: 

     - The track is located in the desert, obviously, sand on the track has a huge impact on traction and performance of cars (you need rallye tires not race tires to be fast there... Also, AWD will help a lot as traction is key in these bad surface conditions)

    - Test conditions can vary substantially within minutes - it all depends on the wind and on how much sand there is on the track; from lap to lap the test conditions can change significantly - making the lap times not objective 

    - Temperature is (obviously) very high, n/a cars will suffer more, turbo cars will suffer less (the turbos will just operate at higher boost pressure, thus compensating for the hot atmosphere)

    - The track favours fast cars, there are few tight corners (where the GTR would suffer given its high weight).

    In summary, this track is absolutely useless for testing cars. The results obtained in such environment cannot be considered "objective" at all. In particular, tests like the one in the video are not comparable to Sportauto Supertest results: In comparison, the Supertest can be called "clinical"...

     I am writing all this to highlight my above point again: posting test data found in the Internet (or in US magazines...) can be VERY misleading Smiley

    BTW, the above video and its implications for the GTR test results discussed above supports my expectation regarding the Supertest of the GTR Smiley


    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    MKSGR:
    AUM:
    The Nissan 7.29 claim cannot be proved or disproved so let's stick to what we know from independent tests. The GTR laps very close to the GT2 in most tests. http://www.fastestlaps.com/index.php?page_id=compare&car1=4717b80e35715&car2=46a06c22ab41a

    Given this evidence it seems possible that the GTR and GT2 are also close at the Ring. We know the GT2 Ring time. Why not come to terms with the fact that the GTR is a very fast car (with styling, image and maybe reliability problems). And wait for the Sport Auto test for the final verdict.

    Witch hunts lower the standing of Porsche owners.

    Just found something very interesting (connected to our previous discussions on the GTR):

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrd8VzfZzN8 

     In short, this video shows a US test of the GTR vs. GT3 in "Willow Springs" (this is one of the few test tracks in AUM's above link where the GTR is remarkably fast compared to the GT2). In the video link I posted above the GTR is 4s faster than the GTR... 

     Now, the video link  highlights why summary tables found somewhere in the Internet can be "dangerous" andgrossly misleading when it comes to comparing the performance of sports cars...

    Watching the video my conclusion is clear: "Willow Springs" suffers from a number of serious problems, each making this track rather useless for professional car comparisons: 

     - The track is located in the desert, obviously, sand on the track has a huge impact on traction and performance of cars (you need rallye tires not race tires to be fast there... Also, AWD will help a lot as traction is key in these bad surface conditions)

    - Test conditions can vary substantially within minutes - it all depends on the wind and on how much sand there is on the track; from lap to lap the test conditions can change significantly - making the lap times not objective 

    - Temperature is (obviously) very high, n/a cars will suffer more, turbo cars will suffer less (the turbos will just operate at higher boost pressure, thus compensating for the hot atmosphere)

    - The track favours fast cars, there are few tight corners (where the GTR would suffer given its high weight).

    In summary, this track is absolutely useless for testing cars. The results obtained in such environment cannot be considered "objective" at all. In particular, tests like the one in the video are not comparable to Sportauto Supertest results: In comparison, the Supertest can be called "clinical"...

     I am writing all this to highlight my above point again: posting test data found in the Internet (or in US magazines...) is misleading Smiley

    This video supports my expectation regarding the Supertest of the GTR Smiley

    The link to the video is bad, but if it is the Head2Head test on TorqueTV the driver drifts the Gt3 around the corners, which is akin to braking in the corners vs accelerating out of the corners. This is comparable to intentionally blowing the lap to skew a result. To give you a comparison on Oct 30th Craig Stanton took a stock 997tt and leisurely ran a 1:32.2 around Willow Springs on street tires and with a passenger. He felt the car was capable of 1:29's. The same day he took a 996Gt3 around Willow Springs in 1:28.9. A 201hp Spec Boxster typically can run the track in 1:34, and even an 89 Civic can run 1:37. To post a 1:36 in a 997GT3 is an intentional set-up.

    --

    track vid

    0-300kph

    chasing a 997GT2




    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    Very interesting benchmark figures for this track. Many thanks Smiley

     I think we are talking about the same video. However, most drifts look like power induced (he seems to drift while applying the throttle at the exit of the corners).

     BTW, what do you think of my thoughts about the track itself (sand, temperature etc.)? 


    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    MKSGR:

    Very interesting benchmark figures for this track. Many thanks Smiley

     I think we are talking about the same video. However, most drifts look like power induced (he seems to drift while applying the throttle at the exit of the corners).

     BTW, what do you think of my thoughts about the track itself (sand, temperature etc.)? 


    Power induced drifts will still yield much less forward propulsion than a car with traction. It is almost like a car burning out at the start line of a drag race. It also as mentioned before overheats the tires and further reduces grip. I think for rallye purposes it is a more appropriate technique.

    You are correct about WS having some wind and dust/dirt issues. Usually though after a few runs the track line will be pretty clean. I have not driven WS but have heard it favors HP cars. Temps there can get warm in August, but California is much more temperate than say Texas or Arizona. With the heat though usually turbo cars suffer more because of heat soak which leads to boost and timing being pulled by the ECU. I make sure to run 104 octane to be safe.

     Just another point of reference the 911 cup cars can run mid 1:24-6 at Willow Springs.

    Cheers



    --

    track vid

    0-300kph

    chasing a 997GT2




    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    On usual race track conditions you'll loose speed by drifting.

    But as a WRC fan I know that this is not true for dirt or hairpins...


     
    Edit

    Forum

    Board Subject Last post Rating Views Replies
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: New 991.2 GT3 (2017) 10/13/18 7:49 PM
    lukestern
    388317 5041
    Porsche Sticky SUN'S LAST RUN TO WILSON, WY - 991 C2S CAB LIFE, END OF AN ERA 10/14/18 11:37 PM
    watt
    316336 1950
    Porsche Sticky 992 (Next 911 generation 2019/2020) 10/15/18 8:47 AM
    RCA
    222408 2542
    Porsche Sticky The moment I've been waiting for... 7/21/18 6:45 AM
    bluelines
     
     
     
     
     
    208082 1067
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: 911 GT2 RS (2017) 10/4/18 3:41 PM
    WhoopsyM
    178455 2635
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: 991.2 GT3 RS (2018) 10/13/18 1:16 PM
    RCA
    108341 2227
    AMG Sticky Mercedes E63 S AMG (2018) - Short Review (updated on a regular basis) 9/25/18 7:06 AM
    RCA
    29739 315
    Porsche Sticky Paint protection film 9/25/18 6:14 PM
    throt
    13141 121
    Porsche Sticky Child seats in a 991 6/18/18 8:51 PM
    Monkey
    12508 31
    Porsche 918 latest news Thread Closed 11/6/17 10:43 AM
    RCA
    610764 5574
    Porsche 991 GT3 RS 1/9/18 1:43 PM
    Kimi
    511643 5816
    Porsche OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S 4/3/18 9:15 AM
    KresoF1
    481892 4254
    Porsche OFFICIAL: 911 R (2016) 9/13/18 10:12 AM
    RCA
    273082 2589
    Porsche Cayman GT4 10/4/18 10:04 PM
    lexs4
    255333 2550
    Porsche OFFICIAL: New 991.2 Turbo and Turbo S 1/23/18 12:27 AM
    RCA
    190337 1074
    Ferrari 488 GTB/GTS 10/10/18 9:19 PM
    koko
    183136 1625
    McLaren McLaren on a winning streak 10/15/18 10:07 AM
    WhoopsyM
    174832 3187
    Porsche Boxster Spyder (981) 8/31/18 10:25 AM
    WAY
    141863 757
    Others Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016 model) - Review (updated Feb 13th 2017) 10/7/18 8:43 PM
    Boxster Coupe GTS
    135530 2187
    Porsche OFFICIAL: New Panamera (2016) 1/6/18 10:41 PM
    Wonderbar
    126610 1284
    Ferrari Ferrari F12 Berlinetta / 599 GTO Successor 5/22/18 9:16 PM
    RCA
    110985 789
    Others VW caught cheating emissions tests 5/3/18 7:52 PM
    CGX car nut
    105947 871
    Porsche OFFICIAL: 718 Boxster (2016) 10/20/17 11:17 AM
    DaveGordon
    98822 732
    Porsche Porsche Mission E - the future of Porsche? 10/16/18 1:54 PM
    ISUK
    76580 992
    Porsche Donor vehicle for Singer Vehicle Design 10/13/18 9:50 PM
    RCA
    65422 672
    Porsche UPDATES: 2018 Porsche Cayenne 2/6/18 2:13 PM
    RCA
    56726 423
    Lambo Huracán Performante in "6.52 something" at the Ring? 11/7/17 12:30 AM
    kingjr9000
    49735 852
    Porsche OFFICIAL: New 991.2 Carrera GTS models 11/29/17 12:27 PM
    DJM48
    45572 471
    Others Tesla Model X Thread Closed 2/23/18 3:41 PM
    RCA
    42552 1122
    AMG AMG GT R 1/26/18 7:19 AM
    GoHardGT3RS
    40795 597
    306 items found, displaying 1 to 30.