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    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    The idea that they run Turbos at 20% is utter nonsense. I've had a lot of engines built with custom turbos in a wide range of sizes (600-1100bhp), right up to the biggest being a Trust T88 single on one of my GTRs which was massive (it made 650bhp at 0.8bar boost, but only came on boost at 5000rpm, so was crap to drive).

    If a pair of turbos made 620bhp at 20% they'd be capable of flowing 5 x 620 = 3100bhp. Turbos that are capable of flowing 1500bhp each are vast and would never spool up at low rpm on a small engine like the MP4.

    There may be some headroom on the MP4 Turbos, but it's not another 2500bhp.......


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    I believe the first power upgrade was free only because they released the car too early. The current power config of the car is what they had in mind and what they want the 1st gen cars to be. 

    McLaren might charge the 12/13 owners for a modest upgrade fee if they spec the 14 cars with a higher power output. 

    Porsche doesn't say whether the 991 Turbo will have VTG, I assume it won't. I also assume Porsche will also spec MHI turbos for it.

    The BorgWarner VTG pretty much runs out breath after 6000rpm, hence the lower rev range, those MHI have normal impellers, and they can run higher rpms, see the McLaren engines. 

    But even with the MHIs, I don't see 991 Turbo/S engines can match the McLaren in revs, simple physics dictate the smaller pistons in the McLaren can withstand higher speed than the bigger ones in the Porsche. Both are 3.8l but one is a V8 and the other a flat 6.

    As for the 20% claim, kinda of make sense but not as low as McLaren still left quite a bit of reserve capacity for the P1, which uses the same engine, just 'tweaked'. 

    My guess would be manufacturers would go for about 70% max to preserve some head room for reliability. It could even be 50%.


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    Guy:

    The idea that they run Turbos at 20% is utter nonsense. I've had a lot of engines built with custom turbos in a wide range of sizes (600-1100bhp), right up to the biggest being a Trust T88 single on one of my GTRs which was massive (it made 650bhp at 0.8bar boost, but only came on boost at 5000rpm, so was crap to drive).

    If a pair of turbos made 620bhp at 20% they'd be capable of flowing 5 x 620 = 3100bhp. Turbos that are capable of flowing 1500bhp each are vast and would never spool up at low rpm on a small engine like the MP4.

    There may be some headroom on the MP4 Turbos, but it's not another 2500bhp.......

     

    Haha, it doesn't quite scale that way, not even close to linear. Remember the turbo is only one part of the equation, piping, cooling and compression ratio also plays big roles.

    MP4-12C has a 3.8l engine, lets say a nominal figure of 100hp per litre, something very doable without much trouble, so 380hp as a NA engine? slap on a pair of turbos and an extra 240hp. THe P1 puts out about 727hp, so another 100hp out of the engine. Still very doable if they were only lightly stress in the 12C. 

    The turbos in the McLaren are not big, quite small actually, lets say they are pushing about 300hp max each. In the 12C configuration each will only be asked to supply 120hp, not quite 20%, more like 40%. In the P1 configuration they will still be pushing only 150hp each, 50%. Right around the ballpark I speculated on the post above. 


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    Whoopsy:

    I believe the first power upgrade was free only because they released the car too early. The current power config of the car is what they had in mind and what they want the 1st gen cars to be. 

    McLaren might charge the 12/13 owners for a modest upgrade fee if they spec the 14 cars with a higher power output. 

    Porsche doesn't say whether the 991 Turbo will have VTG, I assume it won't. I also assume Porsche will also spec MHI turbos for it.

    The BorgWarner VTG pretty much runs out breath after 6000rpm, hence the lower rev range, those MHI have normal impellers, and they can run higher rpms, see the McLaren engines. 

    But even with the MHIs, I don't see 991 Turbo/S engines can match the McLaren in revs, simple physics dictate the smaller pistons in the McLaren can withstand higher speed than the bigger ones in the Porsche. Both are 3.8l but one is a V8 and the other a flat 6.

    As for the 20% claim, kinda of make sense but not as low as McLaren still left quite a bit of reserve capacity for the P1, which uses the same engine, just 'tweaked'. 

    My guess would be manufacturers would go for about 70% max to preserve some head room for reliability. It could even be 50%. 

     


    Actually Porsche DOES state that they use VTG on the 991 Turbo S.  Go configure a car and print out the specs and click on all the boxes when you print it out. 

    Under the engine features section it says "Twin-turbos with Variable Turbine Geometry and dual intercoolers"


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    OT: I have a few hundred vinyl from 1960-1980 that got damaged in Sandy. Is that worth something or should I just toss them out?


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    Whoopsy:

    Porsche doesn't say whether the 991 Turbo will have VTG, I assume it won't. I also assume Porsche will also spec MHI turbos for it.

    Nope, the new 991 Turbo/Turbo S uses a new generation of VTG chargers as far as I heard.

    The BorgWarner VTG pretty much runs out breath after 6000rpm, hence the lower rev range, those MHI have normal impellers, and they can run higher rpms, see the McLaren engines. 

    Let's see how the new VTG chargers hold up...

    But even with the MHIs, I don't see 991 Turbo/S engines can match the McLaren in revs, simple physics dictate the smaller pistons in the McLaren can withstand higher speed than the bigger ones in the Porsche. Both are 3.8l but one is a V8 and the other a flat 6.

    This is why Porsche is apparently using the MHI  chargers in the Panamera Turbo S.

    As for the 20% claim, kinda of make sense but not as low as McLaren still left quite a bit of reserve capacity for the P1, which uses the same engine, just 'tweaked'. 

    20% is really pretty low but hey, everything is possible, even if not very likely.

    My guess would be manufacturers would go for about 70% max to preserve some head room for reliability. It could even be 50%.

     

    Depends. The latest cars, incl. the 991 Turbo S, run on pretty high boost pressures.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    Whoopsy:

    Haha, it doesn't quite scale that way, not even close to linear. Remember the turbo is only one part of the equation, piping, cooling and compression ratio also plays big roles.

    MP4-12C has a 3.8l engine, lets say a nominal figure of 100hp per litre, something very doable without much trouble, so 380hp as a NA engine? slap on a pair of turbos and an extra 240hp. THe P1 puts out about 727hp, so another 100hp out of the engine. Still very doable if they were only lightly stress in the 12C. 

    The turbos in the McLaren are not big, quite small actually, lets say they are pushing about 300hp max each. In the 12C configuration each will only be asked to supply 120hp, not quite 20%, more like 40%. In the P1 configuration they will still be pushing only 150hp each, 50%. Right around the ballpark I speculated on the post above. 

     

    You are right about there being more to it than that, but trust me I know what I'm talking about, one of my GTRs (an R34) ran with 5 different turbo configurations, including twin and singles and I spent plentynof time on the dynos and looking over compressor maps etc.

    You are incorrect about your assumptions regarding how power is added. All the air that goes into the engine goes through the turbos, so if the engines are 600bhp, then they are flowing 300bhp through each turbo. Note that turbos are usually measured in airflow in lbs/min not bhp, since all the turbo does is flow air whereas bhp is a more complex product of engine design, BMEP/efficiency, advance and fuel quality. Volumetric efficiency of a turbocharger is also very poor when used near maximum etc.

    The bigger the turbo the more efficient is at passing greater volumes of air, but the downside is lag, both in terms of transient lag (ie speed to react), but also boost threshold ie what rpm it comes on boost. As an example, I had the same 2.6l RB26 engine in two different GTRs and with small stock turbos is came on boost fast and low in the range <2500rpm, but could never make more than about 460bhp (from memory), then with bigger Trust T617z, it spooled up about 1000rpm later, but made 680bhp at max boost. When a similar engine was fitted with Garret 3037s, it made as much as 1015bhp, but only came on boost at 5500rpm (it was built for drag-racing).

    McLaren like every car manufacturer will have chosen a turbo size that runs about 60-80% of capacity in normal use, but that is small enough to spool up quickly. This leaves spare capacity for upgrades. No one ever fits turbos that run only a small amount of their designed volume as they would be far too big and result in terrible ability to respond, both transient and rpm-based.

    (NB When describing lag I mean both types, both at what rpm the turbos start to produce meaningful boost when at low rpm in a high gear and transient response, which I mean as when you are already at high-rpm but the turbos are not spooling and suddenly are required to spool. The bigger the turbo in relation to engine size the worse they are at both, hence why VTGs were invented to try to partially get around this issue.)

     


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    So why not two serial turbos? One small for low rpm, one big? (Funny enough when the first twin turbos came out that's what I always thought they had).

    Or why not 4 or more turbos in parallel?


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    SciFrog:

    So why not two serial turbos? One small for low rpm, one big? (Funny enough when the first twin turbos came out that's what I always thought they had).

    Or why not 4 or more turbos in parallel?


    Complexity... the pressure management and hose layout is a. very complex and b. has to endure a lot of heat on the exhaust side. That´s why it is not so much of an issue on the diesel cars with such layouts as they run on lower temperatures.


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    I am curious about the VTG charger setup on the new Turbo/Turbo S. Since Porsche is, to my knowledge, the only manufacturer to use VTG chargers on a non-Diesel engine, they may be onto something here. Tuners hate the VGT chargers but I actually wonder why. My 997 Turbo RUF 550 engine ran over 20k km trouble-free with over 70 horses more and 1.2 bar boost pressure (instead of 1.0 bar with overboost) and I drove this car pretty hard on the Autobahn, most of the time at full throttle. Car was in excellent condition when it was sold.

    Also keep in mind that the new Turbo/Turbo S achieves the new EU6 environmental legislation for cars, so it is pretty much one of the "cleanest" sports cars on the market.

     


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    Claim that MP4-12C engine is using only 20% of its turbo capablities is total nonsense. According to my P friend it is claim "made by someone who clearly do not have a clue about engine design".

    MP4-12C engine designed by Ricardo is from several points nothing special actually. It is still using non-direct fuel injection and it is very, very short stroke engine by design. Relatively low CO2 figures are achieved by very long DCT gearing. Just look at in gear acceleration in latest tests of MP4 Spider.

    McLaren goal was to produce an engine with very broad power and torque curve. This is why this engine has relatively low torque-600Nm and pretty high power-625ps for 3.8L V8 configuration.

    Just look what is latest 991 Turbo engine capable in RUF RT 35-630ps/825Nm. You can order it with AWD and PDK. Top speed is 338km/h and 0-300km/h is 25.1s...


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    SciFrog:

    So why not two serial turbos? One small for low rpm, one big? (Funny enough when the first twin turbos came out that's what I always thought they had).

    Or why not 4 or more turbos in parallel?

     

    The 959 had sequential turbos, but same size.


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    RC:

    I am curious about the VTG charger setup on the new Turbo/Turbo S. Since Porsche is, to my knowledge, the only manufacturer to use VTG chargers on a non-Diesel engine, they may be onto something here. Tuners hate the VGT chargers but I actually wonder why.

    It's the heat, because VTG can effectively be giving full boost from 2500 to 6500rpm that is a lot of heat. Mild states of tune like your 550/800NM for 997tt VTGs and about 600PS/820NM for the GT2 sized VTGs are OK and the power can be maintained fairly well unless the ambient temp goes much over 20C (if it does then 50-100hp can easily be "taken" from your tune as the ECU pulls timing, boost and richens the mixture)

    The limit for the GT2 sized VTG which is the biggest (talking about hot side VTG mechanism) is about 700PS at full speed and about 1.55bar boost pressure - I have loads of data logging to support this, basically the hot side reaches the limit of how much exhaust it can flow and back pressure in the exhaust manifold reaches over 3 bar = big heat, limited power.

    The VTGs for the 991 turbo and S will have the same size hot side VTG as the 997s is my information since BW have not produced anything bigger.


    --



     

    3.9  GT2 2011 make over


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    Getting back to the very mundane, any views regarding 18 way vs 14 way sport seats.  I've got to decide shortly.  Have had both, but interested in others views.


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    Depends who will be using the car. If only you, all those seat adjustments are useless. I recall I was talked into the 18 way and after the first adjustment never used them again.


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    KresoF1:

    Just look what is latest 991 Turbo engine capable in RUF RT 35-630ps/825Nm. You can order it with AWD and PDK. Top speed is 338km/h and 0-300km/h is 25.1s...

    According to this articel it is the 997.2  3.8 Liter turbo engine

    http://m.auto-motor-und-sport.de/fahrberichte/ruf-rt-35-im-fahrbericht-den-ruf-nach-turbo-erhoert-5215668.html


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    nberry:

    Depends who will be using the car. If only you, all those seat adjustments are useless. I recall I was talked into the 18 way and after the first adjustment never used them again.

    As I recall the 18 way were a bit tighter through the hips than the 14 way. Is this correct?


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    Dario:
    KresoF1:

    Just look what is latest 991 Turbo engine capable in RUF RT 35-630ps/825Nm. You can order it with AWD and PDK. Top speed is 338km/h and 0-300km/h is 25.1s...

    According to this articel it is the 997.2  3.8 Liter turbo engine

    http://m.auto-motor-und-sport.de/fahrberichte/ruf-rt-35-im-fahrbericht-den-ruf-nach-turbo-erhoert-5215668.html


    Ahem, no... the article says that it uses the Turbo engine from the 997.2 with direct fuel injection:

    Im Heck des 991 arbeitet nicht ein mit zwei Ladern samt Peripherie zwangsverheiratetes Carrera S-Aggregat, sondern der Sechszylinder-Biturbo des 997 in seiner letzten Ausprägung mit Direkteinspritzung.


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    Ferdie:
    Dario:

    According to this articel it is the 997.2  3.8 Liter turbo engine

    http://m.auto-motor-und-sport.de/fahrberichte/ruf-rt-35-im-fahrbericht-den-ruf-nach-turbo-erhoert-5215668.html


    Ahem, no... the article says that it uses the Turbo engine from the 997.2 with direct fuel injection:

    thats what i am saying...


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    My bad... I thought you had written about the GT3 somewhere in between. At least now, I can't see that part anymore.

    indecision


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    RUF doesn't use the new 991 Turbo engine, simply because he can't (engine isn't available yet as a spare part, so he cannot order it and no, RUF is not officially supported by Porsche, even if he now runs an official Porsche repair shop). It would have been great to see RUF as some sort of AMG or M GmbH for Porsche but I guess if Porsche is ever going to go that way, it will be Porsche Motorsport instead.

    The performance of the RUF RT35 sounds nice but isn't that spectacular compared to the 991 Turbo S. I also doubt it that it would be as fast as the 991 Turbo S on the Nordschleife since the new 991 Turbo S has the new all-wheel-steering and of course the new PTM/PDK system.

    RUF is listed as the smallest car manufacturer in Germany, not a tuner but I actually think he may be barking the wrong tree here. With individual, reliable and OEM-style performance tuning, he could have achieved more recognition from Porsche and maybe even some sort of "house tuner" status at some point (look at ABT and Audi/VW for example). Or look at Brabus and Mercedes. RUF's products are too extreme, a bit outside the Porsche philosophy, thanks god not as extreme as Gemballa or Techart but still maybe too much for Porsche.

    It was however a good sign of faith that Porsche provided RUF with the status of an official Porsche repair/maintenance shop. He cannot sell cars there though (which could have been interesting but RUF probably isn't interested or it would have complicated his "other" business, I don't know exactly).


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    Conrad2:

    Getting back to the very mundane, any views regarding 18 way vs 14 way sport seats.  I've got to decide shortly.  Have had both, but interested in others views.

    Since the 18 ways are for free, I went for them. The couple of kg additional weight don't really count on a 1600 kg car and sometimes, when I pull my back (it happens), the additional adjustments options help. Smiley
    The 18 way sport seats have another advantage: They look sportier (compare the side parts with the ones of the 14 way sport seats). So the question is not if 18 ways or 14 ways seats but Adaptive Sport Seats Plus (18-way) or Sport Seats Plus. Do not take the Power Sport Seats (14-ways), they look (and feel) less sporty. Unless you are a pretty "large" person, then the Power Sport Seats (14-ways) could make sense since they would feel more comfortable around the shoulders and waiste.

    23.06.png


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    Yes, that is correct. However, it make it more difficult to get in and out of the seat. Tighter hip area is better for performance driving but not as comfortable for DD. If you plan on doing PD get the 18 way. When you are spending close to $200,000 for the car a couple thousand more for the 18 way should not be an issue.Smiley

    BTW, if you are getting the TTS aren't the 18 way standard?Smiley


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    RC:.

    The performance of the RUF RT35 sounds nice but isn't that spectacular compared to the 991 Turbo S. 

    Ruf Rt35 0-300 in 25 -26secs, 991 turbo s around 32 sec ( if he es really 4-5 sec faster than 997 turbo s)

    So that is a hugue gap, also it looks like ruf is putting down more than 650 hp to achieve those numbers

     


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    Dario:
    RC:.

    The performance of the RUF RT35 sounds nice but isn't that spectacular compared to the 991 Turbo S. 

    Ruf Rt35 0-300 in 25 -26secs, 991 turbo s around 32 sec ( if he es really 4-5 sec faster than 997 turbo s)

    So that is a hugue gap, also it looks like ruf is putting down more than 650 hp to achieve those numbers

     

    Comparing the first 997 Turbo with 480 hp to the RUF 911 Turbo products at that time, I'd say that the current performance gap Rt35 vs. Turbo S is quite small. Also, chassis/handling wise, the Rt35 won't be able to cope with the new PTM/PDK setup and of course the AWS implementation. Considering the fact that the Rt35 is over 70k EUR more expensive, I would rather wait for RUF to offer a reliable 991 Turbo S tuning than buying a Rt35 now. Or I'd wait for RUF's Rt35 version based on the 991 Turbo, shouldn't take longer than a year for RUF to finish it.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    Waffling on color again.  Have agate grey currently on order, but black/black on a turbo is so hard to beat!!  In need of serious counseling !!    Strong opinions appreciated.


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    I'd stick with Agate. , the metallic will bring out the details on the turbo a lot more than black. 


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    Black hides the lines of the car. However, with black wheels it will look very sinister and aggressive. Agate grey does little for me.


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    Conrad2:

    Waffling on color again.  Have agate grey currently on order, but black/black on a turbo is so hard to beat!!  In need of serious counseling !!    Strong opinions appreciated.

    i had a black 997TT and it looked great. im staying with black so far for the 991, thats if i dont change my mind about the whole thing.... 


    --

    2011 CTT

    2005 F430

    2010 Audi S5

     

     


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    Conrad2:

    Waffling on color again.  Have agate grey currently on order, but black/black on a turbo is so hard to beat!!  In need of serious counseling !!    Strong opinions appreciated.

    I was always a strong believer in black/black combos but I ordered agate grey met. with a black/Carerra red bi-color interior for a change. My Cayenne GTS is meteor grey met., so I kind of started to like this color and agate is close (a bit darker though).

    The new 991 Turbo has certain design elements which may not be visibile on a black car but I agree that the combination of a wider rear and black would look aggressive. Not sure however if agressive is what you are looking for. Agate grey is more of a sporty but not that aggressive color, it is difficult to explain. Silver tones are more elegant though. I was even thinking about speed yellow and guards red (what the heck, this is a 911 Turbo) but this is way too much...I think.

    I decided to stick with agate grey met. and the black/red interior combo and if I don't like it, I can always use a company in the vicinity of my dealership, they offer foil coverage of cars in any possible color, incl. matte ones and they do a hell of a job.

    My dealer already finalized the order and while I could still change it until July 3rd (deadline, after that I cannot change anything), I won't bother anymore. I made my decision, now I have to live with it.

     

     


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)


     
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