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    Re: 458 Italia Supertest Thread Closed

    ISUK:

    Guys,

    You are seriously behind the times on Ferrari reliability, sevicing costs and build quality. The new generation of cars can hold their own against anything from Porsche.

    That's all fine and dandy for people who buy new and flip them every 18 months, since the car is under warranty the whole time. That seems to be the norm for a lot of folks and it seems to be what you have done as well. What about the enthusiasts who want a 355 or a 360/CS or even a 348? Guys are celebrating that they have reached 50,000km on their 25 year old Ferrari's! I've read on another site about owners of 430s who have had F1 tranny issues. Tarek, who used to post here, has had his car at the dealer for about 2 months now while they try to figure out what's wrong with the clutch. CS wheels seem to crack if you look at them the wrong way. There's always an excuse for Ferrari reliability and quality issues along the lines of "well, they're hand made" and "exclusive" and "it's a Ferrari" etc. Being hand made is supposed to be a hallmark of quality, not an excuse for half-assed assembly and sub standard parts. I'm glad to hear that the attitudes in Maranello are changing, hopefully because buyers are asking for more. Maybe now that owners are actually getting hit with real depreciation, they are demanding more from the company as that would be a great thing.

    Yes, the switch to chains on the 430, and being able to do a belt swap with the engine still in the car on the 360 has started to make some difference with cost of ownership. The 458 and Cali may be reliable and well built now, but that isn't all of a sudden going to change the reputation of the brand. It will take some time (if it's true) to sway the masses. In the meantime, low mileage cars with a complete service history will be the pre-owned F-cars that sell first.


    Re: 458 Italia Supertest Thread Closed

    ISUK:

    You are seriously behind the times on Ferrari reliability, sevicing costs and build quality.

    These alleged advancements remain to be proven as cars of the "reliable era" pile up the miles, provided of course owners dare to take them out on the road for normal use.

    When I see a 10 year old F-California daily all weather driver with 100.000 trouble free miles on the clock with reasonable maintenance requirements, then I'll change my perception.


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: 458 Italia Supertest Thread Closed

    I was comparing apples with apples Joe. The older cars were far more costly to maintain but the same is true of almost any make. Reliability has come a long way in recent years for most manufacturers due to improvements in materials quality, component design, CAD advancements etc.

    So  I guess the ticking bomb of the RMS issue on the 986/996 and even early 987/997 didn't happen. Nor did the total engine failures that have been documented on this site by some members that are not exactly a rare occurrence if you check around other boards. Add to those faults the carbon discs that cracked on the 996 GT3, porous/cracked cylinder liners, IMS failures, front radiators corroding due to lack of protection, coil pack failures etc etc.

    I'd forgotten just how reliable Porsches were up to the 987/997 series and how cheap they are to repair when you require a new engine, cooling system, replacement carbon brakes etc

    I could add to that the serious dissatifaction amongst owners in markets given only 2 year warranties on new cars unlike the US where early owners are given far longer protection from these issues as Porsche fears the litigation culture there.

     


     

     


    Re: 458 Italia Supertest Thread Closed

    Iain,

    I like new Ferraris very, very much. BUT...

    They are not designed for daily usage. California is included here. My friend got his Cali three months ago and he decided to drive it as much as possible. So far(5000km on clock) failures are: car stuck in Neutral-towed to Service(minor issue they claimed), Navi system do not work well, one of the electric seats motors too loud(left seat adjustment is louder then right seat). His opinion? His first and last Ferrari. Previously he owned 997.2 CS, R8 V8 and Bentley Conti GT. He is utterly dissapointed with Cali. Build quality is not good as he expected(I can confirm that since I drove his car). Suspension(optional Magnetic one) is way too soft at the back since he bottomed his car twice already on roads in Italy(!) and Slovenia.

    Few days ago I got the chance to inspect build quality of 458, 997.2 Turbo PDK and R8 V8 side by side. 458 had the worst build quality of three cars. By far the worst...  And Ferrari(directlly from Maranello) advice how to put front licence plate on 458 is really stupid one...


    Re: 458 Italia Supertest Thread Closed

    ISUK, these are urban legends, usually by the very small minority of afflicted owners exploding the issues on the internet.

    I can see Porsches of all ages and types running day in day out going about daily routines without any problem at all. Superb performance coupled with mainstream running and maintenance costs.

    Moreoever, 90% of the Porsches here are imported used from the UK (because of the high taxes on new cars) some after multiple owners, but nevertheless they are perfect after 10 and more years with minimal problems, if any at all. Read the German TUV ranking and you see that at 6 years the 911 is the most reliable car overall, not just in its class, in Germany.

    I respect the Ferrari name for the passion it generates, but let's admit that they are top as trophies for wealth and perhaps success and they make good ornaments next to someone's beautiful swimming pool. But as engineering achievements it's  case of "look but don't touch".

    I think I exhausted my time on this subject


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: 458 Italia Supertest Thread Closed

    KresoF1:

    Iain,

    I like new Ferraris very, very much. BUT...

    They are not designed for daily usage. California is included here. My friend got his Cali three months ago and he decided to drive it as much as possible. So far(5000km on clock) failures are: car stuck in Neutral-towed to Service(minor issue they claimed), Navi system do not work well, one of the electric seats motors too loud(left seat adjustment is louder then right seat). His opinion? His first and last Ferrari. Previously he owned 997.2 CS, R8 V8 and Bentley Conti GT. He is utterly dissapointed with Cali. Build quality is not good as he expected(I can confirm that since I drove his car). Suspension(optional Magnetic one) is way too soft at the back since he bottomed his car twice already on roads in Italy(!) and Slovenia.

    Few days ago I got the chance to inspect build quality of 458, 997.2 Turbo PDK and R8 V8 side by side. 458 had the worst build quality of three cars. By far the worst...  And Ferrari(directlly from Maranello) advice how to put front licence plate on 458 is really stupid one...

    OT, but what can you say about Lamborghini ? to be more specific the Gallardo ? I was this close to go for the 430 scud 2 years ago.....thank goodness I ended up with a GT2 and never looked back


    --


    Re: 458 Italia Supertest Thread Closed

    reginos:
    nberry:

    I agree that the 458 is a prettier car

    Most people who don't have a keen interest in cars (both men and women) from the engineering or racing point of view and in other words view recent Ferrari mid-engined cars as objects of a certain shape without the myth, don't find them attractive at all. I'm afraid, but some find them even funny to look at and very cartoonish and caricature-like.

    So if you isolate the shape from the marketing of the legend, this is not an opinion held by many.

     

    Are you for real?? Cartoonish my feet !!

    Looks wise, Ferrari  and Maserati are the best looking cars in the market bar none!! Even people who are clueless about cars, admire them whenever they spot one.

    I don't why you keep attacking Ferrari on every single post. You're starting to sound like major playa-hatiner !!


     


    Re: 458 Italia Supertest Thread Closed

    koko:
    reginos:
    nberry:

    I agree that the 458 is a prettier car

    Most people who don't have a keen interest in cars (both men and women) from the engineering or racing point of view and in other words view recent Ferrari mid-engined cars as objects of a certain shape without the myth, don't find them attractive at all. I'm afraid, but some find them even funny to look at and very cartoonish and caricature-like.

    So if you isolate the shape from the marketing of the legend, this is not an opinion held by many.

     

    Are you for real?? Cartoonish my feet !!

    Looks wise, Ferrari  and Maserati are the best looking cars in the market bar none!! Even people who are clueless about cars, admire them whenever they spot one.

    I don't why you keep attacking Ferrari on every single post. You're starting to sound like major playa-hatiner !!

    There shouldn't be quarrel about taste. Taste is a very subjective thing. I'm sure in the UAE people do and like things we'd never do or like and vice versa.

    As to your "playa-hater" term (if that's you meant by "playa-hatiner") because this term contains an element of jealousy, I can tell you that on the contrary I'm very relieved I've never been bitten by the Ferrari-fan bug. BTW to own such a car as a trophy and drive 1000km per year is within the financial  reach of thousands of affluent people in every country, if they preferred glitz over substance.


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: 458 Italia Supertest Thread Closed

    Maybe I should add some fuel to the fire: when racing a group N Lancia Delta HF Integrale back in the days, we had extensive contact to Lancia, Magneti Marelli and other italian companies who were responsible for the parts used/involved. One of the travel engineers who took care of our team was German but he was most of the time in Italy. 

    When we had problems with our cars, some of them were perfect, some of them made trouble all the time, we were wondering why there are so huge differences in build quality and part reliability.

    This engineer told us: "The quality depends on how the worker who build the car or manufactured the part slept the night before, if he had sex with his wife or not, if the spaghetti were aldente or not, if he had a fight with his mama or not and if he was in a good mood for work or not." We thought he made just a joke but he was darn serious.

    I guess this explains why some cars are perfect and without any issue and some are always trouble. 

    Take Maserati as another example: a friend is an official Maserati dealer and maybe he should tell you about the issues these cars have. They are much more reliable than in the past but they are not at Porsche level...yet.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW


    Re: 458 Italia Supertest Thread Closed

    reginos:
    koko:
    reginos:
    nberry:

    I agree that the 458 is a prettier car

    Most people who don't have a keen interest in cars (both men and women) from the engineering or racing point of view and in other words view recent Ferrari mid-engined cars as objects of a certain shape without the myth, don't find them attractive at all. I'm afraid, but some find them even funny to look at and very cartoonish and caricature-like.

    So if you isolate the shape from the marketing of the legend, this is not an opinion held by many.

     

    Are you for real?? Cartoonish my feet !!

    Looks wise, Ferrari  and Maserati are the best looking cars in the market bar none!! Even people who are clueless about cars, admire them whenever they spot one.

    I don't why you keep attacking Ferrari on every single post. You're starting to sound like major playa-hatiner !!

    There shouldn't be quarrel about taste. Taste is a very subjective thing. I'm sure in the UAE people do and like things we'd never do or like and vice versa.

    As to your "playa-hater" term (if that's you meant by "playa-hatiner") because this term contains an element of jealousy, I can tell you that on the contrary I'm very relieved I've never been bitten by the Ferrari-fan bug. BTW to own such a car as a trophy and drive 1000km per year is within the financial  reach of thousands of affluent people in every country, if they preferred glitz over substance.

    Being a Ferrari fan or not, that's your problem not mine. What annoys me is the fact that u have to attack Ferrari in every single post. Man just give it up and enjoy whatever car u have/like and let us enjoy our choices in peace.

     


    Re: 458 Italia Supertest Thread Closed

    You are welcome to come over to the Porsche forum and express your concern with Porsche cars. I agree however that once somebody made his point, he should let owners/drivers lead the discussion.

    Now that Porsche owners made their point and Ferrari owners made theirs, back to topic guys...458 Supertest...nothing else. Thank you. 

     


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW


    Re: 458 Italia Supertest Thread Closed

    KresoF1:

    Iain,

    I like new Ferraris very, very much. BUT...

    They are not designed for daily usage. California is included here. My friend got his Cali three months ago and he decided to drive it as much as possible. So far(5000km on clock) failures are: car stuck in Neutral-towed to Service(minor issue they claimed), Navi system do not work well, one of the electric seats motors too loud(left seat adjustment is louder then right seat). His opinion? His first and last Ferrari. Previously he owned 997.2 CS, R8 V8 and Bentley Conti GT. He is utterly dissapointed with Cali. Build quality is not good as he expected(I can confirm that since I drove his car). Suspension(optional Magnetic one) is way too soft at the back since he bottomed his car twice already on roads in Italy(!) and Slovenia.

    Few days ago I got the chance to inspect build quality of 458, 997.2 Turbo PDK and R8 V8 side by side. 458 had the worst build quality of three cars. By far the worst...  And Ferrari(directlly from Maranello) advice how to put front licence plate on 458 is really stupid one...

     

    Kreso,

    Nearly 3000 miles on my Cali now and no faults or build quality issues. The gearbox fault on your friend's car is just one of those unfortunate things. The box is made by Getrag as you know so the fault lies at their door. Conicidentally I had to take our 987.2 S with pdk back to the dealer for a gearbox fault as the car was getting increasingly dangerous when moving away from rest as the clutch wasn't engaging straight away but suddenly banging into gear. Not clever when you are trying to exit a busy junction.

    I took the standard suspension as I've posted previously because the magna ride is tuned for the American market IMHO and is far too soft in comfort mode. I've had zero grounding issues with the standard set up and have driven it hard over some less than perfect road surfaces. Unless and until Ferrari modify the magna ride on the Cali to reflect the much better set up they've put on the 458 then I wouldn't consider it on this car personally. I've not had an issue with the nav system either. I've used better but also used worse. I found the system in the R8 wasn't easy to use on the move with the silly rotating dial graphic for inputing destinations being very cumbersome. I didn't rate it as a reason to dislike the car though Smiley

    Reginos,

    I respect your views but please don't try and teach me to suck eggs. I've owned many performance cars - Gallardos, 997tt, Audi R8, Maserati GranTurismos, 997C2/C2S/tt, Ferrari 430/Scuderia etc and had issues with most of them in some way shape or form. I'm not blind to the shortcomings of any of them and certainly haven't owned them for posing value as you seem to suggest. I've put some respectable miles on most of them so have some idea what I'm basing my judgements on Smiley  I'm guessing that your anti Ferrari views are based upon hearsay as opposed to direct personal experience Smiley

    Edit: Apologies RC. Posted my response before I saw your post.

     


    Re: 458 Italia Supertest Thread Closed

    nberry:

    Yes. 997.2 Turbo numbers will be less than the 1/2 of the 6000 per year of the 458.

     

    Well, I am afraid you are mistaken Nick. 6000 is the TOTAL production number for Ferrari. About 2000 458s a year, another 3000 Calis and about 1000 V12s. So I stand by what I previously said.

     


    --
    FERRARI RULES!!!


    Re: 458 Italia Supertest Thread Closed

    ISUK:

    Reginos,

    I respect your views but please don't try and teach me to suck eggs. I've owned many performance cars - Gallardos, 997tt, Audi R8, Maserati GranTurismos, 997C2/C2S/tt, Ferrari 430/Scuderia etc and had issues with most of them in some way shape or form. I'm not blind to the shortcomings of any of them and certainly haven't owned them for posing value as you seem to suggest. I've put some respectable miles on most of them so have some idea what I'm basing my judgements on Smiley  I'm guessing that your anti Ferrari views are based upon hearsay as opposed to direct personal experience Smiley 

    I appreciate that you respect my views and it's good for us to draw from your own personal experience of special cars.

    However, we have all been around in the world of cars for many years and the bad experiences of others in relation to certain cars has a lot of value. "Hearsay evidence" might not be allowed in a court of law but in life "there is no smoke without fire".

    Moreover, the rationale that unless someone experiences something cannot have proper views on the matter is often flawed. For example, I've never experienced drugs but I can rightly  have a negative opinion whereas a cocaine addict might insist that his/her powder is the best thing that happened to him/her in life. Smiley


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: 458 Italia Supertest Thread Closed

    ISUK:

    I was comparing apples with apples Joe. The older cars were far more costly to maintain but the same is true of almost any make.

     

     

    OT (sorry, have to reply)Smiley

    Yes, all manufacturers have issues. I guess my point is that for some reason defects seem to be acceptable if it's a Ferrari. Expensive watches, homes, stereo equipment and other cars are held to a much higher standard for quality and workmanship (hence the outrage from some over the RMS issue) so I guess I just don't understand why Ferrari is (has been?) exempt from scrutiny. Full disclosure: my disappointment comes from the research I've been doing on the 360CS which IMO is one of the best looking and sounding cars I've ever seen, and could very well be in my garage next spring when the 997 goes. If I buy it I would do so knowing what the risks are and take my chances I guess, although maybe the 430 with a stick would be the better choice.


    Re: 458 Italia Supertest Thread Closed

     final.gif


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW


    Re: 458 Italia Supertest Thread Closed

    RC:

     final.gif


    I guess the problem is that there is no Sportauto Supertest published yet (except for the leaked NoS laptime) - hence the thread seems like an invitation to all kind of speculation and off topic posts SmileySmiley


    --

    public roads: Porsche 987 S Seal/Cocoa, toll road Smiley : Porsche 997 GT3 Arctic/Black


    Re: 458 Italia Supertest Thread Closed

    RC:


    This engineer told us: "The quality depends on how the worker who build the car or manufactured the part slept the night before, if he had sex with his wife or not, if the spaghetti were aldente or not, if he had a fight with his mama or not and if he was in a good mood for work or not." We thought he made just a joke but he was darn serious.


    So true Smiley But hopefully those days are in the past now Smiley
     


    --

     
    RT Moderator - 997.1 Carrera S GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen collection

    Rennteam signature photo 2.jpg


    Re: 458 Italia Supertest Thread Closed

    You are way off base. They will produce a minimum of 2500 458 coupes and 2500 Spiders. The target for Ferrari in total car production is 10,000 cars per year. Smiley

     


    --

     


    Re: 458 Italia Supertest Thread Closed

    I will have to wait for the end of year results but I reckon that total production will be roughly the same as last year's. 10,000 units is a utopic figure IMHO, especially in this economic climate.


    --
    FERRARI RULES!!!

    Re: 458 Italia Supertest Thread Closed

    To reach 10.000 Ferrari must introduce new models. Not possible with the current range, even if you allow for the 458 Spyder.

    But what? I can only think of a convertible 599. What else?


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: 458 Italia Supertest Thread Closed

    Honestly, who cares about a couple of seconds on the Nordschleife anyway? In my opinion, one has to look beyond the numbers, on these cars especially, and appreciate the effort and engineering that has gone into them. As Iain and Dimitry pointed out before, due to its electronics the car is far more versatile than most of its competitors.

    I wouldn´t mind having both brands in the garage...


    Re: 458 Italia Supertest Thread Closed

    Ferdie:

     

    due to its electronics the car is far more versatile than most of its competitors.

    I wouldn´t mind having both brands in the garage...

     More veratile? Maybe. More synthetic? Maybe as well. Personally, I simply cannot stand the synthetic feeling of the steering of the Ferraris (compared to GT3/GT2) or the indifferent feel of the suspension.

    The Ferrari cars feel differently - in the end it is a matter of taste. If you prefer the solid, precise feeling of a GT Porsche you are unlikely to be satisfied with a Ferrari Smiley


    Re: 458 Italia Supertest Thread Closed

    MKSGR:
    Ferdie:

     

    due to its electronics the car is far more versatile than most of its competitors.

    I wouldn´t mind having both brands in the garage...

     More veratile? Maybe. More synthetic? Maybe as well. Personally, I simply cannot stand the synthetic feeling of the steering of the Ferraris (compared to GT3/GT2) or the indifferent feel of the suspension.

    The Ferrari cars feel differently - in the end it is a matter of taste. If you prefer the solid, precise feeling of a GT Porsche you are unlikely to be satisfied with a Ferrari Smiley

    Ferdie has a point. 

    Even if you are a lover of tee-bone steaks, it doesn't mean that you can't enjoy a lobster on a Friday, or a Ferrari on a Sunday.  Smiley


    --

    fritz


    Re: 458 Italia Supertest Thread Closed

    fritz:
    MKSGR:
    Ferdie:

     

    due to its electronics the car is far more versatile than most of its competitors.

    I wouldn´t mind having both brands in the garage...

     More veratile? Maybe. More synthetic? Maybe as well. Personally, I simply cannot stand the synthetic feeling of the steering of the Ferraris (compared to GT3/GT2) or the indifferent feel of the suspension.

    The Ferrari cars feel differently - in the end it is a matter of taste. If you prefer the solid, precise feeling of a GT Porsche you are unlikely to be satisfied with a Ferrari Smiley

    Ferdie has a point. 

    Even if you are a lover of tee-bone steaks, it doesn't mean that you can't enjoy a lobster on a Friday, or a Ferrari on a Sunday.  Smiley

    Fritz, I assume you meant T-Bone. Sorry, I could not resist. 


    --

     


    Re: 458 Italia Supertest Thread Closed

    haha this was an interesting read. I believe the 458 to be a great new effort from ferrari and raising the level of high end sports car simply due to the fact that they seem to have found a way to enhance the safety thru electronics without taking away the sportiness. I hope Porsche will step up their game in this regard. Yes they may be more oldschool, precise steering, but the 458 is hard to critique really...


    --

    indeed shifting is ancient technology - so is a fuel burning engine..  I happen to like both :) 


    Re: 458 Italia Supertest Thread Closed

     I agree, R8 nav unit sucks balls. Impossible to move the map.


    Re: 458 Italia Supertest Thread Closed

    fritz:
    MKSGR:
    Ferdie:

     

    due to its electronics the car is far more versatile than most of its competitors.

    I wouldn´t mind having both brands in the garage...

     More veratile? Maybe. More synthetic? Maybe as well. Personally, I simply cannot stand the synthetic feeling of the steering of the Ferraris (compared to GT3/GT2) or the indifferent feel of the suspension.

    The Ferrari cars feel differently - in the end it is a matter of taste. If you prefer the solid, precise feeling of a GT Porsche you are unlikely to be satisfied with a Ferrari Smiley

    Ferdie has a point. 

    Even if you are a lover of tee-bone steaks, it doesn't mean that you can't enjoy a lobster on a Friday, or a Ferrari on a Sunday.  Smiley

     

    Filet Mignon all the way...medium done...nothing else. Never  

    Now I need to see how I connect this post to the 458 Italia... Smiley Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW


    Re: 458 Italia Supertest Thread Closed

     Medium? Might as well eat charcoal. Medium-rare at the most.


    Re: 458 Italia Supertest Thread Closed

    wedouglas:

     Medium? Might as well eat charcoal. Medium-rare at the most.

     

    There seems to be a wrong perception of medium in many US restaurants: medium does not allow any kind of charcoal crust/whatever. It is however very difficult to achieve medium: it means that the outside has to be brown (no crust though !) but the inside has to be slightly rose, not completely done.

     


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW


     
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