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    The saga continues

    It's a Porsche, so no surprise
    Shame on you Porsche, after almost 9 years , the problem is not solved. It's behond my compreension a problem like this still exist.

    http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/showthread.php?t=176722&page=3&pp=15



    J.Seven

    Re: The saga continues

    Yes, we talked about it in here:

    http://www.rennteam.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=997&Number=67911&page=1&fpart=5

    If its true, there has to be more for it to be confirmed though, its a real kick to the stomach of their customer base, there is absolutely no excuse to carry a "known" design flaw into a new model. They must think its more profitable to replace the seal that are on warranty that to re-design the engine, and so they did al the way through the 986 and 966's life span. But I wonder if they have weighed the damage to their image in their customer's eyes and brand loyalty, specially if they on top of it don't bother to fix it in the new model either.
    But like I said, its to early to pass judgement on the 997. We don't want to jump into conclusions. Won't take long to find out anuway.

    Re: The saga continues

    If another one appears then a good class action lawsuit in in order. One where the owners and lawyers will be compensated well and lifetime repair to the original owner.

    Re: The saga continues

    Only in America

    Gregor

    Re: The saga continues

    Quote:
    vtrader said:
    If another one appears then a good class action lawsuit in in order. One where the owners and lawyers will be compensated well and lifetime repair to the original owner.



    why no class action before in the 9 model years? and, why just the original owner? doesn't the original owner suffer the sting from poor resale owing to a rep for a defectively designed RMS problem? if so, shouldn't the warranty just be moved to 100k regardless of owner like it is on BMW's grenading M3 motor?

    Re: The saga continues

    This sounds good, my warranty is out already .

    But you know if the lawsuit happens it'll settle by the time 998 is ending its production life cycle.

    Re: The saga continues

    Quote:
    ben, lj said:
    Quote:
    vtrader said:
    If another one appears then a good class action lawsuit in in order. One where the owners and lawyers will be compensated well and lifetime repair to the original owner.



    why no class action before in the 9 model years? and, why just the original owner? doesn't the original owner suffer the sting from poor resale owing to a rep for a defectively designed RMS problem? if so, shouldn't the warranty just be moved to 100k regardless of owner like it is on BMW's grenading M3 motor?



    Porsche should have made the same thing BMW did, admit the problem and meanwhile give the owners a safe warranty period.

    J.Seven

    Re: The saga continues

    I thought the Rear Main Seal issue had been finally fixed. I was planning on ordering my new 997S later today (after 6 months of research and critical decisions on options, like what color...) . Now I am not so sure. The cost of the car I was ordering is $135,000CDN + tax = $155,000CDN($125KUS). For that amount of money, I expect the car to be free of major defects. This RMS issue creates FUD (fear, uncertainty and doubt) about the long-term maintainability of this car.

    Any new product has issues. However if I understand this RMS issue correctly, if the engine has this defect, it is very hard to permanently fix it. Maybe the Internet magnifies this problem beyond what it really is. Is the problem real or isolated?

    I think Porsche should step up to the plate on this issue, if it is real, and either fix the problem for good or offer an extended warranty. I dislike lawyers and frivolous lawsuits. However a class action suit with merit does have a way of focusing a company to fix a problem. The fact that there has been no class action lawsuit to date suggests that maybe the problem is indeed isolated.. The problem is finding the facts.

    Should I order today as planned or wait.

    Re: The saga continues

    TheOldMan,
    Use your own discretion regarding the order but to Porsche defense, actually no to their defense but personal experience, I have owned around 5 911 since 1998 and a '99 Boxster (of course I wasn't married then ) I never had any issues with any single one of them.

    It could be that I was a lucky one, GOD knows, but personally honest the god I never had any minor or major issues with any of them.

    Knock on wood, hope mine won't break this weekend.

    Re: The saga continues

    Quote:
    TheOldMan said:
    I thought the Rear Main Seal issue had been finally fixed. I was planning on ordering my new 997S later today (after 6 months of research and critical decisions on options, like what color...) . Now I am not so sure. The cost of the car I was ordering is $135,000CDN + tax = $155,000CDN($125KUS). For that amount of money, I expect the car to be free of major defects. This RMS issue creates FUD (fear, uncertainty and doubt) about the long-term maintainability of this car.

    Any new product has issues. However if I understand this RMS issue correctly, if the engine has this defect, it is very hard to permanently fix it. Maybe the Internet magnifies this problem beyond what it really is. Is the problem real or isolated?

    I think Porsche should step up to the plate on this issue, if it is real, and either fix the problem for good or offer an extended warranty. I dislike lawyers and frivolous lawsuits. However a class action suit with merit does have a way of focusing a company to fix a problem. The fact that there has been no class action lawsuit to date suggests that maybe the problem is indeed isolated.. The problem is finding the facts.

    Should I order today as planned or wait.



    The RMS leak problems would never be a reason for me, not to buy the 997 S, as long as you get the extended warranty for...let's say ...10 years Just kidding.
    Anyway if I was on the market for a 997S, I wouldn't be consern about the RMS, this is a problem for those who are going to buy it on the second hand market few years from now. Ofcourse it's not good to see your brand new 997S in the garage with a RMS leak, but there's a warranty for this kind og things.
    That said, I think a X51 996TT is a much better option, those are really bullet proof engines, there are several running with 500Hp and more and still push strong. We have a member who ownes a 996TT with more than +/-180.000Km with minor problems

    J.Seven

    Re: The saga continues

    Quote:
    TheOldMan said:Maybe the Internet magnifies this problem beyond what it really is. Is the problem real or isolated?




    over half of my close friends w/ either boxsters or 911s (996s excluding TTs and GTs) have had at least one RMS replacement.

    Re: The saga continues

    Quote:
    TheOldMan said:
    I thought the Rear Main Seal issue had been finally fixed. I was planning on ordering my new 997S later today (after 6 months of research and critical decisions on options, like what color...) . Now I am not so sure. The cost of the car I was ordering is $135,000CDN + tax = $155,000CDN($125KUS). For that amount of money, I expect the car to be free of major defects. This RMS issue creates FUD (fear, uncertainty and doubt) about the long-term maintainability of this car.

    Any new product has issues. However if I understand this RMS issue correctly, if the engine has this defect, it is very hard to permanently fix it. Maybe the Internet magnifies this problem beyond what it really is. Is the problem real or isolated?

    I think Porsche should step up to the plate on this issue, if it is real, and either fix the problem for good or offer an extended warranty. I dislike lawyers and frivolous lawsuits. However a class action suit with merit does have a way of focusing a company to fix a problem. The fact that there has been no class action lawsuit to date suggests that maybe the problem is indeed isolated.. The problem is finding the facts.

    Should I order today as planned or wait.




    Let me give you my humble reasoning for what its worth:

    1* RMS issue on ANY year 996 or 986 is not fixed and is not an isolated issue, as many as one third of 996/986 are or will be affected.

    2* RMS issue on the 997 is an isolated problem to this date. Nobody knows yet if the issue has been transfered onto the 997 type. We will have to wait maybe a year and see the reported cases to arrive to a conclusion.

    3* RMS leak is not something that should keep anyone from buying a 997 espcecially if its new with warranty and all. Its a small leak with no risk to the engine and with an aprox Euro 800 cost to fix in most cases. So even if you are unlucky enough to get an RMS leak AND it out of warranty, AND the Porsche importer of your country decides not to pay for the fix on good will (In US and Germany for example its commonly fixed under good will), it will most likely be an Euro 800 fix and thats it, like was my case in the 996. In over 100,000 hard driven km that was my ONLY problem with the 996 I ever had, in a hard drive sportcar. So I would of buy the car again if I went back in time. For heavens sake, other makers would consider it regular maintenace!!

    4* The big problem is how Porsche is handling the issue, not the leak itself, and since its not a safety issue there is not likely to be a class action suit (like the wiring harness on the 993) nor a voluntary fix (like the convertible top issue on the 993Cabs) from Porsche with their attitude. At least if they don't want to fix it they could offer an extended warranty on RMS leak and problem solved, thats it, but they don't. The only reason not to buy a 997 would be to punish Porsche for their politics, which is a personal chice, but not because of being afraid of an RMS leak.

    5* My view on the matter? The posibility of the RMS issue being present in the 997 will not keep me from buying and enjoying a 997, and I will not settle for a lesser sportcar becuase of it. But that does not mean Porsche should not get away with the selfish and unloyal position the have taken towarads thier customer base in these years on the RMS and should be held accountable at least publicly for it, specially if they don't bother fixing it into the new 997 model. Thats a big issue for me, but not the leak itself. They will loose the trust they have earned from their loyal customers in all these years, who have kept them alive and in bussiness through the tough times. Not very smart if the decide to carry on the RMS engine flaw onto the 997.

    Just my 2 cents

    Re: The saga continues

    Carlos: well stated. I reiterate that PAG should extend the warranty on the engine to 100,000 miles or 10 years. That would be a statement of the quality (or service) behind the product.

    Re: The saga continues

    Thanks everyone for the feedback on the RMS issue. I did not order the 997S today as originally planned, but will do so next week. I will take my chances with the RMS issue. Hopefully I will be in the majority and have a great Porsche experience.

    Re: The saga ? M96 and M97 Hell

    How long have they known this !!!!!!

    M96 and M97 blocks are not useable for racing.PERIOD.
    They are just for street use production only and lack much for durability and oiling at extreme g forces.

    RMS, oil filler pipes that break and leak, coolant tanks that crack, et al., are more symptomatic of a British
    '60's sportscar than a Porsche in 200X. For the 997
    the dipstick has been eliminated. What genius thought
    of that?

    I hate to say it but the M96 and M97 are
    "Poseurs" as motors. Cheaper, yes, better
    No.

    Good value for resale? No. And thats a big change
    in the Porsche world that begun with Toyota consultants
    at the Factory and 996/986 series of cars.

    Is their a German word for disposable big money car?

    Re: The saga ? M96 and M97 Hell

    I should point out that "M96" is not the carrera engine, its the family it pertains to which includes the other 996's and 986's. The GT3/GT2/996TT/986 are also M96.

    The 996carrera 3.4l is the M96.01 and the 3.6l is the M96.03. The 997 3.6l is the M96.05. The GT3 is M96.76. The 996TT is M96.70. The GT2 is M96.70S. Boxster 2.5/2.7/3.2 is M96.20/21/22.
    The 997S is now the M97.01 but its based on the M96.03.

    Re: The saga continues

    I can't understand why Porsche do not fix the issue.
    It's completely inconceivable this failure.
    We are not talking about little cars around 10,000 $.
    A Porsche is a complex machine with an extense history in the world of cars. The most important characteristic of a nine-eleven always was the sturdiness and the reliability

    Re: The saga continues

    I'm still waiting to hear about an OFFICIALLY confirmed RMS issue on the 997 Carrera S engine (M97). So far, nobody was able to put convincing facts on the table, just speculations, gossip, rumours which have travelled from one person to another and so on.

    And although it seems that the RMS leakage was a serious issue on the 996, it actually wasn't. Affected cars didn't brake down spontaneously, they were still "driveable" and so far I owned two 996 (one C2 and one C4 with powerkit) and none had the RMS issue. I also personally know a lot of 996 owners and none of them had such an issue.
    Meaning: it might not be as common as people think but of course I wouldn't like to see it happening on the 997 Carrera S engine (M97). This would REALLY be a shame.

    Re: The saga continues

    Quote:
    RC said:
    I'm still waiting to hear about an OFFICIALLY confirmed RMS issue on the 997 Carrera S engine (M97). So far, nobody was able to put convincing facts on the table, just speculations, gossip, rumours which have travelled from one person to another and so on.




    oh sure, just deny it. if your mind can handle the truth, why don't you just put this poor bastard thru your little vin interigation routine and "confirm: it - he even included his e-mail:

    My car (launch 997s) now has just over 7,150 miles on it and I took it to my dealer this morning to have the oil changed. I also asked them to take a look at everything else to make sure there were no problems. In the process of doing that, the mechanic spotted slight RMS leak. The necessary parts are on order now and the dealer is going to fix it ASAP early next week. Of course, I grilled my service advisor about the situation, explaining it was unacceptable and they said they are going to take care of it. He said they frequently fixed this same problem on base 996s (as I knew) but he explained that they key was fixing it early on. He said some customers with out-of-warranty 996s or Boxters would be told about an RMS problem but would not fix it due to the price (about 10 labor hours), which only compounded problems for such owners later down the road. Based on the experiences the rest of you have had (and what you have read), it would be good to develop a consensus about how "serious" this problem really is, given the launch of a new generation of 911s by Porsche.

    This, of course, raises another issue. I definitely will NOT keep this car outside of warranty.
    __________________
    Austin
    infestation@mac.com

    '05 997 Carrera S
    Black/Black
    __________________
    '04 GT metallic silver 40th anniv. 911 (The Beast)
    '96 Arena red 993 C4S (The Beauty)
    '70 Adriatic blue 914-6 ('Lil B*stard) BEST FACTORY 914/6 @ 2004 914 MIDWEST CLASSIC
    '71 Canary yellow 914 (Yellowbird)
    Ex '91 Black 964 C4 (The Queen)
    Ex '70 Ivory 914-6 (The organ donor)

    Re: The saga continues

    RMS on a 997S... ugh

    keep us updated on this one ben.

    Replaced seal will also fail?

    As I understand it, the seal fails because of the unique deformity created by the mating of the individual engine and transmission.

    If this were true, it would mean a replacement seal made of the same material (which it undoubtedly would be) would fail, like it's predecessor, after roughly the same service interval.

    Therefore, a car that has one RMS leak is fated to continually get them.

    Wouldn't this mean the engine/transmission pairing is defective and should be replaced?

    Re: Replaced seal will also fail?

    Carlos told that's no matter how you usually drive your car. It appears suddenly in different tipe of cars (but not all)

    Re: Replaced seal will also fail?

    Its definately confirmed now. This RMS leak we are talking about is the first RMS leak (and only so far) in a 997/S, in this case a 997S with 7000miles. Its if the same issue as in the 996carrera and not the ocasinal thing like in the 996GT3/TT, we will start to see many more soon. Will be keeping an eye on this...

    Re: Replaced seal will also fail?

    Guys,

    How serious is a RMS leak? Does the car staul? Do you just see oil on the garage floor? How costly is it to repair outside of warranty?

    Sorry, but not too knowledgeable about this issue

    Thanks,
    GG

    Re: Replaced seal will also fail?

    Why is that the car is referred to as an 05 Carrera4/Carrera SC, does it not need the key VIN designators to confirm beyond doubt that it is a 05 Carrera S [997].
    Am I missing something in the "Autobahn" invoice

    Re: Replaced seal will also fail?

    The car is a 997s launch car. I just wasn't sure about whether or not I should make my VIN publicly available on the internet.

    As to why the dealer entry says "05 Carrera4/Carrera S C," I don't know. I originally posted the RMS report to Rennlist and Carlos copied it here. I have subsequently sent my VIN to Carlos, so he can vouch for me.

    For Rennlist, visit here: http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/showthread.php?t=182123

    Austin

    Re: Replaced seal will also fail?

    2005 C4, C4S, or C2S? I'm confused.

    Re: Replaced seal will also fail?

    The only S variant currently available for the 997, is the Carrera 2 S.

    Re: Replaced seal will also fail?

    Guess I'm suggestion the possibility of disinformation being introduced into the forum...not a conclusion as a matter of fact...just grist for the mill. All my service records state exactly what my car is. Always have for all of my Porsche's no matter which dealership did the service.

    Re: Replaced seal will also fail?

    Well, I have offered to provide all of my info, so I don't know what else I can add to convince anyone. As to why the dealer has the model info listed in the way it does, I don't really care so long as they promptly service my car.

    I have just over 7,400 miles on my 997s right now and had to have the RMS replaced in the past week. If you don't believe me, you don't believe me.

    If you want, though I will be more than happy to e-mail you the complete VIN. Just drop me a line at [Email]infestation@mac.com.[/Email] Other than that and the scan I have already provided, I don't really know what other "proof" I can provide. Hypothetically, I could take a picture of my vin on the car--would that work?

    I love my car and I absolutely would not try and perpetuate any disinformation about the 997s on the net.

     
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