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    Re: 918 latest news Thread Closed

    One of my friends had just order a new GT3, he is quite down on the pre-order, I might actually use my new found power to get a 'bonus' car earlier for him. In spirit I will violate Porsche's 'resale' rule, but since my friend happens to own a car dealership, I could technically work around it by trading in the 'new' GT3 to his dealership. 


    Re: 918 latest news Thread Closed

    Whoopsy - any further thought to the 12C vs. Turbo S dilemma that you find yourself in!!!! haha

    I drove a 12C and was shocked by its ability to turn from supercar to incredibly comfortable cruiser.  How comparable is the Turbo S ride and the 12C - both from everyday comfort to performance?


    Re: 918 latest news Thread Closed

    Maybe it would have been a better idea for Porsche, from the start, to offer two versions of the 918: The hybrid and the pure raw Weissach edition without any hybrid technology. I get it, Porsche wants to offer something unique and something which could calm down green activists and critics but in the end, I think that most 918 potential buyers couldn't care less about "green technology" but about performance.

    I would offer the 918 Hybrid and 918 Weissach at the same price, so people are not tempted to get a cheaper "Weissach" version. This Weissach version could have at least 300 kg less than the current 918 Hybrid and if Porsche tweaks the gasoline engine to 700 hp, this should be more than enough to provide an amazing performance. I also think that a Nordschleife time below 7 minutes would be much more likely with such a car.

    I'm no marketing expert but if I were to get a 918, I couldn't care less about the hybrid technology or fuel consumption. I would want the best performance possible for my money and of course a somewhat good daily driver capability. Period. Nothing more and nothing less.

    I'm not surprised the 918 seems to be undersold, the weight is really something Porsche should worry about. I also think that many potential buyers actually want a slightly more spectacular design, which could be introduced with an optional "Aerodynamics Package" or whatever.

    Also: 918 cars are a lot these days...500 would have been enough (not sure however if this would cover their development expenses).

    Speaking of the current 25 prototypes: Do you really think McLaren and Ferrari do the same development work? Can you even imagine 10 prototypes of each, the P1 and the LaFerrari? To be honest, I think that both companies would have maybe 3-5 prototypes driving around, maybe more but under 10. Is this the kind of car you would trust your life with? Yes, they may be kept in a garage only but if driven hard, could they really be as safe and reliable as the 918? I highly doubt it, sorry.

    A last word about something else: Why hasn't Porsche never considered to develop some sort of 959 successor. Some sort of "Ueber"-911 with 900 hp, 1500 kg weight and a sophisticated AWD, air suspension, etc.? I bet they could develop such a monster 911 based on the new 991 Turbo, price it at 400-500k EUR and they have a winner, from any possible point of view. This car would kill most of the competition, performance-wise and Porsche would spend much less money for development (hybrid and all). Just imagine a 911 which does 0-100 in 2.5 seconds, 0-200 kph in 7 seconds and 0-300 kph in 20 seconds, to speed at 350 kph. Nordschleife in 6.59 minutes... Smiley

    Just saying...I think that Porsche put to much emphasis on the green technology and reveiled the 918 too early.

    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (ordered), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: 918 latest news Thread Closed

    Yep, it would be a great marketing, having 2 cars, one NA + hybrid and second Turboed version without electro engines and accu, but it is no way technologically. All the parts of the 918 are strongly integrated so to delete hybrid you will have to build a new car from 0.

    Here is another question, why do mclaren and ferrari need to build the same amount of protos? Their cars are not new, ferrari has the same drivetrain except kers as fellow models, ff and f12, mclaren is simply grown up m4-12...So no need to make a great testing. Talking about reliability, so there is a rumor that LaFerrari hasn't passed crash tests and has to make some changes in monocoqueSmiley Very reliable car, and secure!Smiley

     

     

     


    --

    sportcars-history.com


    Re: 918 latest news Thread Closed

    It's odd.  The more folks comment on the 918 (positively and negatively), the more I like and respect it and Porsche's decision to build it.

    RC, your point about testing prototypes is a good one.  Porsche has a history of solid engineering and testing, both in its production and racing cars.  This is an expensive approach, but it engenders respect and trust--and consistently produces quality sport cars.  This is not to say that McLaren or Ferrari don't test their cars, but I do doubt they test them as exhaustively over a lengthy period.

    And let's define the "competition" a bit more specifically.  IMHO, the LaFerrari is not a competitor, in concept or in customer base.  Regarding concept, Porsche made a corporate and brand commitment to Intelligent Performance--a mission to lead the sport car segment (from entry level to top models) in technology in a modern environment.  Hybrid technology in everyday use is a major part of that performance approach.  Does Ferrari--which produces a fraction of Porsche's production numbers--have that same goal throughout its range?  

    Put another way, what if the 918--Porsche's top model-- were a pure combustion  performance monster?  What image would that portray about Porsche's overall mission for its wide range of products?  

    Regarding customer base, how many Ferrari customers would switch for a 918, or vice versa?  Would a Ferrari enthusiast--who has built his "place in line" for a LaFerrari--really give up that place for a rival company's product even if that other product were equal in performance? How many 918 customers would opt for a LaFerrari instead of a 918?   The cars each have distinctly different appeals, different marketing approaches, different styles--even different but important subliminal messages.  One exudes flash and glamor and a Formula One image; the other represents engineering, Germanic determination, and an endurance racing image.

    Comparing the P1 and 918 is more interesting.  The P1 is a beautiful design, and could be seen as something the 918 "should have looked like".  It looks lighter, more "modern" and does not carry the Ferrari's "extreme, exotic, exclusive" design baggage.  Its predecessor model has developed a reputation of being both a daily driver and a super performer.  And the "locked in" aspect of Ferrari's and Porsche's customer base is not as prominent here--a Porsche enthusiast could more easily switch to or add a new and different brand, as opposed to giving up a slot or jumping from one long term rival to another.  The P1 does, however, carry " a fragile, untested company" sort of baggage.  Sure McLaren has a FI history, and its representatives can validly assert that sophisticated testing has been done--but the bottom line is that the P1 is a new car and McLaren is a new company compared to Porsche.  So a P1 buyer has to take more of a leap of faith than the 918 buyer, and that could tip the scales toward the 918. 

    And finally, I keep remembering a conversation with a member of the P1 design team in Geneva, when I asked him what his favorite sports car design of all time was.  His answer--the Porsche 904GTS.

     So, I guess where I come out after this long personal rave, is that I would go for the 918 in the end (with hope that it will pick up some of the lighter design look of the P1).  

     

     


    Re: 918 latest news Thread Closed

    Whoopsy:

    One of my friends had just order a new GT3, he is quite down on the pre-order, I might actually use my new found power to get a 'bonus' car earlier for him. In spirit I will violate Porsche's 'resale' rule, but since my friend happens to own a car dealership, I could technically work around it by trading in the 'new' GT3 to his dealership. 

    The dealers in the US have received their 991TT allocations which was just introduced. The 991GT3 allocations for the US remain a mystery despite the car being introduced two months ago. I wonder what is going on?Smiley

    I have no doubt the 918 is for more advanced than the LaFerrari and P1. But the question is do buyers want that? Not so sure. 

     


    --

     


    Re: 918 latest news Thread Closed

    RC:

    Speaking of the current 25 prototypes: Do you really think McLaren and Ferrari do the same development work? Can you even imagine 10 prototypes of each, the P1 and the LaFerrari? To be honest, I think that both companies would have maybe 3-5 prototypes driving around, maybe more but under 10. Is this the kind of car you would trust your life with? Yes, they may be kept in a garage only but if driven hard, could they really be as safe and reliable as the 918? I highly doubt it, sorry.
    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (ordered), BMW X3 35d (2013)

    Heard that there is about 16 P1 XPs (Experimental Prototypes). Those are just XPs which come after CP (Concept Prototype) and now they are testing VPs (Validation Prototypes). In the end, it's McLaren, not Ferrari. :)


    Re: 918 latest news Thread Closed

    bhnyc:

    While I am not a huge fan of the P1, I would like to read more about it.  I am very interested by the 600 kg of downforce - i almost feel like it is a mistake when I write that number!!! Anyway, we are in a world of technology and I think all these car makers are pushing the envelop - too bad the designer was blind when he designed the front the P1

    http://media.mclarenautomotive.com/model/7/EN/doc/49/#tabs-5


    Re: 918 latest news Thread Closed

    Whoopsy:

    But customers are expecting a F1 like car, not a souped up MP4-12C, that's why McLaren is still having trouble meeting their sales target 375. My 12C is like 80% of the P1 yet 1/3 of the cost, why bother.

    The 12C is a great car, but I totally disagree with you on that one.


    Re: 918 latest news Thread Closed

    bhnyc:

    Whoopsy - any further thought to the 12C vs. Turbo S dilemma that you find yourself in!!!! haha

    I drove a 12C and was shocked by its ability to turn from supercar to incredibly comfortable cruiser.  How comparable is the Turbo S ride and the 12C - both from everyday comfort to performance?

     

    Disregarding the 3rd party eye catching 'wow' factor, the 12C is equal if not better all around for an every day car. As you have experienced 1st hand, the ride is incredible in all 3 modes, way superior over either mode in the conventionally sprung Turbo S. Both transmissions delivers perfect shifts and in the correct gear in auto mode pretty much all the time. Mid range power is also neck and neck, it would be splitting hair to decide which one is better. Launch from rest the Porsche has the edge, but the 12C is just about equal too with it's F1-spec traction control. The only edge the Porsche has is that if I want to take a friend golfing I can put 2 sets of clubs on the back seat. Well that and the awd in the Porsche. But it's a car I can live with for daily drive like the Porsche. If the 12C weren't so good, my decision would have been a lot easier.


    Re: 918 latest news Thread Closed

    pxaxh:
    Whoopsy:

    But customers are expecting a F1 like car, not a souped up MP4-12C, that's why McLaren is still having trouble meeting their sales target 375. My 12C is like 80% of the P1 yet 1/3 of the cost, why bother.

    The 12C is a great car, but I totally disagree with you on that one.

     

    You are not alone. Many many people do. 

    I am just viewing the P1 from a 12C owner's perspective.

    From seeing pictures of the cockpit, I see a new matted carbon finish on the dash, a digital gauge cluster, the center flybridge is twisted a little but the whole interior still looks like the one in my garage. Like seeing an ex-girlfriend with more makeup and a boob job. Still the same girl.

    The engine is just a tuned version of the engine in my garage, maybe it has a KERS system added on but still the same. Like myself going on a gym and steroid spree, I might be bigger and more powerful but it's still the same me. 

    Outer skin is completely new, wind tunnel shaped bodywork, great, but what's underneath the new clothing? McLaren hasn't release a bare bone rolling chassis of the P1 like they did with the 12C, but we owners are suspecting we will pretty see it look just like the 12C one. Maybe a crossmember is relocation here and there and some mounting points moved, but it will be at least 80% alike. 

    McLaren never mentioned the P1 is a 'completely' new ground up car like the F1. We were expecting a 3 seater and still waiting for a 3 seater. 


    Re: 918 latest news Thread Closed

    pxaxh:
    bhnyc:

    While I am not a huge fan of the P1, I would like to read more about it.  I am very interested by the 600 kg of downforce - i almost feel like it is a mistake when I write that number!!! Anyway, we are in a world of technology and I think all these car makers are pushing the envelop - too bad the designer was blind when he designed the front the P1

    http://media.mclarenautomotive.com/model/7/EN/doc/49/#tabs-5

    Thanks pxaxh - I am traveling and spent a lot of time on the Internet today just reading through articles and watching You Tube.  A lot of that time has been looking at articles for the P1.  I must say, that I am liking the design better and better.  I think the side profile is very nice.  Regarding the front, I think it will look better in person (particularly as you will not be looking front on from the ground, rather down at it from an angle).  I think the big issue, IMHO, has been the contrasting colors that Mclaren likes to market, make the front grill look like a smile.  I will be curious to see in person.  I actually like how the P1 looks with their XP wrap (the different race tracks of the world).  I like how Porsche is offering the wraps as an option, Mclaren should consider the same.


    Re: 918 latest news Thread Closed

    McLaren never mentioned the P1 is a 'completely' new ground up car like the F1. We were expecting a 3 seater and still waiting for a 3 seater. 

     

    Whoopsy, I agree that Mclaren made a mistake not sticking with the three seat configuration.  I have read all about the configuration being such a pain to get in and out, but it made it so unique and, in turn, so uniquely Mclaren.  The idea that the 3 seat configuration was not for everyone and therefore, a conventional seating configuration for the P1 was required does not make sense.  The P1 is not a mass production car, therefore it does not have to be fitted for the masses.  I think more people would be lining up to buy a 3 seat configured P1 for its uniqueness as opposed to the current situation, were people are asking similar questions as the one's Whoopsy just made - i.e. is it truly unique or is it a super version of the 12C.  Don't get me wrong, I bet this is an amazing car and I would not be surprised if it is the best track car of the three 2013 hypercars.  And when/if it proves to be, then the rest of the buyers may come.  However, had they gone with the 3 seat configuration to start with, I think they would have presold all 375 cars - I am talking as an outsider and not qualified to make such judgements, but I know when I bought my 4.0 there was a reason I bought it.  I felt it would be the last of the Meztger engines and the last GT3 RS with a manual - in that way it spoke to my emotions.  And I know at least one of the two is right and probably I will be right on both.  (Like Whoopsy, I didn't buy my car to make money as I do take it to the track, but I like the idea of it and someday want my kids to experience it).  LaFerrari has a similar story, i.e. I think it is the last of the V12 naturally aspirated hypercar.  Lamborghini might have something to say about that, but I would guess it is Ferrari's last.  The 918 is the first of...just like the 959 was the first of.  I think Mclaren missed the boat on its stamp.  It may come with a 6:46 at the ring (I think Zonda R was 6:47?)  And if that is the case, that is a stamp, but otherwise, I am not sure.  a 3 seater could have been Mclaren's stamp by making it the definitive continuation of the F1.  


    Re: 918 latest news Thread Closed

    I just know the P1 had just raised the price of the F1. They were in the 5mil range but someone is looking for one and is paying 7.5mil now.


    Re: 918 latest news Thread Closed

    Whoopsy:
    pxaxh:
    Whoopsy:

    But customers are expecting a F1 like car, not a souped up MP4-12C, that's why McLaren is still having trouble meeting their sales target 375. My 12C is like 80% of the P1 yet 1/3 of the cost, why bother.

    The 12C is a great car, but I totally disagree with you on that one.

     

    You are not alone. Many many people do. 

    I am just viewing the P1 from a 12C owner's perspective.

    From seeing pictures of the cockpit, I see a new matted carbon finish on the dash, a digital gauge cluster, the center flybridge is twisted a little but the whole interior still looks like the one in my garage. Like seeing an ex-girlfriend with more makeup and a boob job. Still the same girl.

    The engine is just a tuned version of the engine in my garage, maybe it has a KERS system added on but still the same. Like myself going on a gym and steroid spree, I might be bigger and more powerful but it's still the same me. 

    Outer skin is completely new, wind tunnel shaped bodywork, great, but what's underneath the new clothing? McLaren hasn't release a bare bone rolling chassis of the P1 like they did with the 12C, but we owners are suspecting we will pretty see it look just like the 12C one. Maybe a crossmember is relocation here and there and some mounting points moved, but it will be at least 80% alike. 

    McLaren never mentioned the P1 is a 'completely' new ground up car like the F1. We were expecting a 3 seater and still waiting for a 3 seater. 

     


    I see your point, but I would like to add that it would cost the same if they were to design a totally different interior. The designers at McLaren are trying to create a design DNA for McLaren and that's the only way to do it imo. :)

    P1's M838TQ engine is 90% different to the M838T found in the 12C. Now I can tell you that what's under the skin is at least 80% new. They are using the same gearbox as the 12C's but heavily modified and the shifts are 30% faster. The brakes, cooling system, suspension and everything else is so different.

    As for the three seater configuration, they've tried it, but preferred to stick with the conventional 2 seating position as it was better for safety regulations and packaging reasons. 

    I suggest you read this article, there are some really interesting facts about the car that were not mentioned anywhere else. :)
    http://cars.uk.msn.com/news/21-reasons-why-the-mclaren-p1-will-rewrite-the-supercar-rulebook#image=1

    9637977F89F76B7A856C65AA1A4C_h498_w598_m2.jpg10987DDEF385A36F9834F27D9DE4D7_h498_w598_m2.jpg65BA4F5B7B2CF8167B8EBE53E3843_h498_w598_m2.jpg


    Re: 918 latest news Thread Closed

    On it's own, the P1 is a very impressive machine, but the comparison with the lesser 12C is inevitable and the resulting conclusion is not too favourable. 

    918 has the Porsche DNA in it yet it doesn't look anything like what Porsche is offering right now, maybe there is some CGT silhouette in it but that's about it. 

    McLaren's DNA would be a everyday supercar with dihedral doors. From the F1 to the SLR to the 12C, all are everyday usable. 

    There is just too much 12C DNA in the P1, potential buyers like me are put off by the similarity and hence the dismal sales figure. For a potential buyer to lay down so much coin for a car, uniqueness is the 1st and primary concern. 

    918 ticks all the right boxes, unique look, cutting edge technology, unique construction, unreal performance. The cheaper price is just the icing on the cake. 


    Re: 918 latest news Thread Closed

    Whoopsy, I'm not comparing it with the 918, I truly believe that the 918 is a better choice than the P1 from a customer's point of view. It's just the comparison between the 12C and the P1 that I'm referring to. Saying the P1 is a souped-up 12C is not correct at all imo.


    Re: 918 latest news Thread Closed

    Sorry pxaxh, but have to disagree with this one:

     I see your point, but I would like to add that it would cost the same if they were to design a totally different interior.

    Designing a new part is always much more expensive than adapt or develop something using details you have used before. First of all with new detail you have to look for a new supplier or you have to arrange a new detail from current supplier, also in case of exclusive goods - you have to pay twice or triple to ask a supplier to make a detail because to make a new detail you have to remake your production facility - thats expensive, so you have to cover expenses of supplier. In any case of new details you have to remake your production facilities, but with lesser amount of finished product you have to pay more for 1 detail. If you arrange not 300 but 3000 details its easier to cover expenses because you will be able to produce more cars and you'll make more money with them. Smiley

     

     

     


    --

    sportcars-history.com


    Re: 918 latest news Thread Closed

    No 3 seats, no want.

    Not that I was actually going to get one, but the lack of middle seating position was a huge let down. That was just so fucking cool in the F1. I  was soooo hoping for another middle seating position car. This was probably the only chance at one and they blew it. I too believe the car would already be sold out had it a middle seat.

    Even if it's impractical or of no benefit, it's just one of those things that is awesome. Like doors that go up rather than out.  The P1 design is nothing to right home about IMO, and the center seating position could have made up for that.


    Re: 918 latest news Thread Closed

    Not sure if those pictures have been shared before, but still they are worth sharing. :D1369142357838normal_4 (3).jpg
    normal_1 (2).jpg
    1369142357845normal_4.jpg
    1369142357816normal_3 (2).jpg
    1369142357807normal_1.jpg
    1369142357831normal_4 (2).jpg
    1369142357824normal_3.jpg


    Re: 918 latest news Thread Closed

    Last one1369142444512Screenshot (30).png


    Re: 918 latest news Thread Closed

    awesome pics! can you share link with higher resolution ?


    Re: 918 latest news Thread Closed

    I like it. The right mix of the classic Porsche styling cues with avant garde elements.

    I wish it was a normal exotic of maximum 250.000 EUR.

     


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: 918 latest news Thread Closed

    reginos:

    I like it. The right mix of the classic Porsche styling cues with avant garde elements.

    I wish it was a normal exotic of maximum 250.000 EUR.

     

    +1 Smiley


    Re: 918 latest news Thread Closed

    reginos:

    I like it. The right mix of the classic Porsche styling cues with avant garde elements.

    I wish it was a normal exotic of maximum 250.000 EUR.

     

    agreed!...and a car with a potential to offer a motorsport product to take it to the 458 and other V8's.


    Re: 918 latest news Thread Closed

    This is the link. Everything else we pretty much know, it's just those few pictures that are new. http://www.porsche.com/microsite/918-spyder/usa.aspx

     

    Re: 918 latest news Thread Closed

    Also notice it says MORE than 887hp and LESS than 2.8 seconds. So we don't know everything yet, we'll have to wait until September I guess.


    Re: 918 latest news Thread Closed

    pxaxh:

    Also notice it says MORE than 887hp and LESS than 2.8 seconds. So we don't know everything yet, we'll have to wait until September I guess.

    No it doesn't. It says over 887 hp. I'm not sure that this equals more than 887 hp but I may be wrong. It also says less than 2.8 seconds but since there is no precise figure, this can be 2.8 or 2.79. Smiley

    As far as I heard, Porsche plans to get the system power to 918 hp, which should be doable but an older rumor indicated 911 hp due to the 50 years anniversary of the 911 (which wouldn't make much sense in my opinion), so it remains to be seen.

     


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (ordered), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: 918 latest news Thread Closed

    pxaxh:

    This is the link. Everything else we pretty much know, it's just those few pictures that are new. http://www.porsche.com/microsite/918-spyder/usa.aspx

     

    You made my day! SmileySmiley


    --


    Re: 918 latest news Thread Closed

    you're the man Smiley Thank you !!!


     
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