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    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    RC:
    sulaiman:

    when u guys think we can see new pictures of new colors from porsche ???? this is the most important thing we can wait for now 

     

    SmileySmileySmileySmiley

    I already made a complaint to Porsche that while their internet configurator is quite useful, the colors are not accurate at all. I suggested to use photorealistic imaging (or better: photos) to improve the configurator experience but since I do not work for Porsche, I am just a customer, I doubt they will listen.

    It is a pity: So many people are interested in new Porsche models but the colors (configurator) are not accurate, the dealers usually have only small samples and dealer cars are usually not in the colors we really want to order.

    At least Porsche could offer some sort of photo gallery with different colors and options (I suggested that too) but I don't understand why the don't offer it. Shouldn't be too difficult. I would even volunteer and come to Porsche to photograph the cars for free. Smiley

    +100  It would be enough to have a photographer who takes a picture of each different Porsche (colorwise+wheel combo) that rolls off the line and then have it  published as a reference on the configurator . It is not rocketscience and cost wise neither - just someone has to take the initative to push it through the organization.  I completely dislike the computer graphics renders. You spend (in this case) 200 K Eur and you are not even able to see the picture of the real thing  (and we talk about standard colors not even paint to sample which I could understand). Porsche focus on details they make the difference.


    --

    911 Club Coupe, 993 4S Riviera Blau, 12' Audi S4 Avant


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    RC:

    Right now, I have mixed feelings about the 991 Turbo S. Yes, I want this car but on the other hand, I also like the 991 GT3 a lot and it seems to be the better value right now.

    Christian, the only way to take the "right" (i.e. durable and satisfying) decision is to drive both cars (GT3 and turbo) before ordering one of them. The factors that are relevant for your driving pleasure are mostly not visible from the specs. Of course the turbo is the more convenient daily driver. Of course the turbo has more torque. Of course the GT3 has the better setup and more direct drive-feel. To weigh all these factors a short test drive in both will be enough. Without this test drive the result is just a chance encounter. 

    Of course, I tell you something here you already know deep in your heart - yet, I still repeat it. Maybe you take this route after reading these lines Smiley You are under no time pressure, I think. Getting a turbo in October is not that satisfactory with the winter ahead Smiley Alternatively, you could get the perfect choice next spring SmileySmileySmiley


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    RC:
    sulaiman:

    when u guys think we can see new pictures of new colors from porsche ???? this is the most important thing we can wait for now 

     

    SmileySmileySmileySmiley

    I already made a complaint to Porsche that while their internet configurator is quite useful, the colors are not accurate at all. I suggested to use photorealistic imaging (or better: photos) to improve the configurator experience but since I do not work for Porsche, I am just a customer, I doubt they will listen.

    It is a pity: So many people are interested in new Porsche models but the colors (configurator) are not accurate, the dealers usually have only small samples and dealer cars are usually not in the colors we really want to order.

    At least Porsche could offer some sort of photo gallery with different colors and options (I suggested that too) but I don't understand why the don't offer it. Shouldn't be too difficult. I would even volunteer and come to Porsche to photograph the cars for free. Smiley

    I don't know why exotic companies don't just take a photo of each car that comes out of the factory that has a unique color. Would make choosing a color so much easier. I bet they could sell a lot of expensive unique colors that way. I bet you could sell tons special colors and easily recoup the cost of such a thing.


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    RC:
    Dario:

    Isnt mclaren not around 28 secs with the 625 hp Version...

    The 997 GT2 RS does 0-300 kph in 28.6 seconds.

    The Corvette ZR1 does 0-300 kph in 35.4 seconds.

    The Lexus LFA does 0-300 kph in 50.6 seconds.

    Mercedes SLS AMG in 42.4 seconds.

    Importracing Nissan GT-R (tuned to 590 hp): 36 seconds.

    Porsche 997 GT3 RS 4.0: 41 seconds.

    Finally...McLaren MP4-12C...trara...31 seconds. (Sport Auto tested two MP4-12C, one did 9.7 seconds from 0-200 kph, the other one 9.8 seconds, so this should be the real deal on stock cars Smiley).

    So the 34 seconds I mentioned sound quite believable but of course I would be glad to see a better time. Smiley

    Not sure how scientific the test was, but there is a thread on the McLaren forum with a Spider doing 0-300 in about 27s.


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    9t2uqe.jpg


    --


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    wedouglas:
    RC:
    Dario:

    Isnt mclaren not around 28 secs with the 625 hp Version...

    The 997 GT2 RS does 0-300 kph in 28.6 seconds.

    The Corvette ZR1 does 0-300 kph in 35.4 seconds.

    The Lexus LFA does 0-300 kph in 50.6 seconds.

    Mercedes SLS AMG in 42.4 seconds.

    Importracing Nissan GT-R (tuned to 590 hp): 36 seconds.

    Porsche 997 GT3 RS 4.0: 41 seconds.

    Finally...McLaren MP4-12C...trara...31 seconds. (Sport Auto tested two MP4-12C, one did 9.7 seconds from 0-200 kph, the other one 9.8 seconds, so this should be the real deal on stock cars Smiley).

    So the 34 seconds I mentioned sound quite believable but of course I would be glad to see a better time. Smiley

    Not sure how scientific the test was, but there is a thread on the McLaren forum with a Spider doing 0-300 in about 27s.

    Tests have been done by Sport Auto with calibrated equipment, not done privately by car fans. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2012), Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    MKSGR:
     

    Christian, the only way to take the "right" (i.e. durable and satisfying) decision is to drive both cars (GT3 and turbo) before ordering one of them. The factors that are relevant for your driving pleasure are mostly not visible from the specs. Of course the turbo is the more convenient daily driver. Of course the turbo has more torque. Of course the GT3 has the better setup and more direct drive-feel. To weigh all these factors a short test drive in both will be enough. Without this test drive the result is just a chance encounter. 

    Of course, I tell you something here you already know deep in your heart - yet, I still repeat it. Maybe you take this route after reading these lines Smiley You are under no time pressure, I think. Getting a turbo in October is not that satisfactory with the winter ahead Smiley Alternatively, you could get the perfect choice next spring SmileySmileySmiley

    Markus, I already chose, it will be the 991 Turbo S. The GT3 is nice and all but I barely get to drive on the track and the moment the first next gen E63 AMG will show me his tail on the Autobahn, I will regret not getting the 991 Turbo S. Smiley I want the maximum possible performance for the next three years or so but everything embedded in a daily driver package, so I can take my kids with me from time to time and/or drive the car in bad weather too. The 991 Turbo S is just perfect for me and since the dealer adapted the offer, the difference to the 991 GT3 is minimal (really...minimal...in this price range). I guess so many want the new GT3 but not that many (yet) the 991 Turbo S, so I am going to use that to my advantage. If I would track race more often, I would get the GT3 indeed. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2012), Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    RC:
    MKSGR:
     

    Christian, the only way to take the "right" (i.e. durable and satisfying) decision is to drive both cars (GT3 and turbo) before ordering one of them. The factors that are relevant for your driving pleasure are mostly not visible from the specs. Of course the turbo is the more convenient daily driver. Of course the turbo has more torque. Of course the GT3 has the better setup and more direct drive-feel. To weigh all these factors a short test drive in both will be enough. Without this test drive the result is just a chance encounter. 

    Of course, I tell you something here you already know deep in your heart - yet, I still repeat it. Maybe you take this route after reading these lines Smiley You are under no time pressure, I think. Getting a turbo in October is not that satisfactory with the winter ahead Smiley Alternatively, you could get the perfect choice next spring SmileySmileySmiley

    Markus, I already chose, it will be the 991 Turbo S. The GT3 is nice and all but I barely get to drive on the track and the moment the first next gen E63 AMG will show me his tail on the Autobahn, I will regret not getting the 991 Turbo S. Smiley I want the maximum possible performance for the next three years or so but everything embedded in a daily driver package, so I can take my kids with me from time to time and/or drive the car in bad weather too. The 991 Turbo S is just perfect for me and since the dealer adapted the offer, the difference to the 991 GT3 is minimal (really...minimal...in this price range). I guess so many want the new GT3 but not that many (yet) the 991 Turbo S, so I am going to use that to my advantage. If I would track race more often, I would get the GT3 indeed. Smiley

    I see SmileySmiley


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    wedouglas:
     

    Not sure how scientific the test was, but there is a thread on the McLaren forum with a Spider doing 0-300 in about 27s.

     

    Video mentioned:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Oh3LFFscBtc


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    RC:
     

    Markus, I already chose, it will be the 991 Turbo S. 

     

    Good choice!Smiley

     


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    Whoopsy:
    wedouglas:
     

    Not sure how scientific the test was, but there is a thread on the McLaren forum with a Spider doing 0-300 in about 27s.

     

    Video mentioned:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Oh3LFFscBtc

     

    Most cars in Europe usually have a 10-13 kph speedo "error" at 300 kph, so 300 kph on the speedo is NOT 300 kph in reality. Smiley I actually think that this car was even slower than the 31 seconds measured by Sport Auto.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2012), Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    RC:
    Whoopsy:
    wedouglas:
     

    Not sure how scientific the test was, but there is a thread on the McLaren forum with a Spider doing 0-300 in about 27s.

     

    Video mentioned:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Oh3LFFscBtc

     

    Most cars in Europe usually have a 10-13 kph speedo "error" at 300 kph, so 300 kph on the speedo is NOT 300 kph in reality. Smiley I actually think that this car was even slower than the 31 seconds measured by Sport Auto.

    Very interesting observation. 32-33 sec?


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    Eh, all depends on the day and the conditions. Bit of wind here, incline/decline there, less traction here, etc. Their official time for 0-300 is 27.5s in the 625hp version. Considering its launch, weight, and power, I'm inclined to believe their numbers are pretty accurate. I don't think the Turbo S will be able to get that low, though I'm sure it will shave some seconds off the 997.


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    I think that the McLaren is a wonderful car, has many positive attributes, and is a great first production car iteration attempt for McLaren.  I know that a 2012 model can be had for 991 Turbo S money, but IMO it is still considerably flashier than the Turbo S, the doors and styling do stand out on the McLaren taking away from the ability to drive one without attracting attention.  

    I'm sure the McLaren that can be had for $200-$220k will depreciate less than a Turbo S at $200k, I just think that the engineering favors the Porsche, the creature comforts favor the Porsche, and the stealth factor favor the Porsche.  

    The GT cars, like BMW 6-series, Mercedes SL, et al, the 911 Turbo S is the best of that breed, (with backseats), but it can also compete with the 458's, MP4-12C's, and Gallardo's that offer the shock and awe styling and performance.


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    thats why i testdrive the better MP4-12C on 01.06. kiss

     


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    I have driven the MP4-12C, but I haven't driven the 991 turbo.  The MP4-12C was brilliant to drive, I just think it may be too flashy, and I think it would be more affected by 40k miles in 4 years than a Turbo S.


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    Turbo S is the Obe, guys:)


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    I agree, just comparing and contrasting.  The McLaren is the first viable alternative that I've ever seen.  I realize that "there is no substitute", however, I'm used to Porsche owners trying an Italian sports car before coming back to Porsche.  I haven't yet seen a suitable alternative that is as nimble, quick, and usable as a Turbo.


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    Both cars are equally rewarding to drive, that's why I kept the 997 Turbo S when I bought the MP4-12C but the McLaren is not a substitute of the Porsche.

    The McLaren is quite a bit flashier than the Porsche, it's impossible to be discreet in the McLaren while I am undercover 99% of the time in the Porsche. It's the best attribute, discreet.

     


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    SportCarGroup:

    9t2uqe.jpg

    Wonderful pic, charismatic cars. The air cooled are even more special in my opinion, but the new 991 is by far the best looking 911TT after the air cooled era. 

    More beautiful - 993TT

    More Brutal - 964Turbo

    Best buy - 996TT (depreciation killed this car to a point of making it the best sports car you can have for few $)

    My choice - 991TT

    J.Seven


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    991 TTS will overcome our expecatations!!!!


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    I think so too.  I can't wait to read the initial tests, reviews, and news on it.  I imagine August or September will be the first reviews we hear about.  


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    I remain very confused as to whether it is better to lease or buy an expensive car like the Turbo.  RC seems to prefer the lease route, as he believes it saves him from being concerned about depreciation.  My accountant,, however, did a  very detailed comparison of buying or leasing a Panamera Turbo S, and concluded that buying the car (financing it over the same time as a lease) was slightly better.  The total lease payments were actually greater than the amount the car depreciated at the end of the purchase term.  

    To me the greatest advantage of the lease route is you can turn the car in at the end of the lease term, and not hassle with having to sell the car.  

    Comments welcomed..


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    Wonderbar:

    I remain very confused as to whether it is better to lease or buy an expensive car like the Turbo.  RC seems to prefer the lease route, as he believes it saves him from being concerned about depreciation.  My accountant,, however, did a  very detailed comparison of buying or leasing a Panamera Turbo S, and concluded that buying the car (financing it over the same time as a lease) was slightly better.  The total lease payments were actually greater than the amount the car depreciated at the end of the purchase term.  

    To me the greatest advantage of the lease route is you can turn the car in at the end of the lease term, and not hassle with having to sell the car.  

    Comments welcomed..

    I made the same and got the same conclusion, buying it was better than leasing it.

    J.Seven


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    I would always buy cash where I could, but I think I understand RC's reasons:

    1. He gets a VAT deduction on a passenger car for his business (something we don't get in SA and I find surprising that it exists in Germany - but good luck to RC!)

    2. He'd rather keep have capital to invest in the stock market - there are better ways of gearing a portfolio and getting the interest deductibility on it, but with interest rates at near zero I suppose this is less of an issue in Germany.

    3. He likes the certainty of the residual (all it what you will - but it's in the pricing) 

    So i don't think it's actually as much to do with a simple discounted cash flow comparison as those separate 3 points.  There's no way a typical DCF comparison would come to a lease answer.


    --


    Porsche Carrera GTS (2012); Porsche Cayenne Diesel (2012)


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    For people who like to change their cars very often, leasing gives the comfort of not having to sell your car first (at an uncertain price depending on the market) rbefore you get the next one. You just drive it to the dealer and get the new one, like it was a rental car. This facility seems to offset any accounting drawbacks leasing might have under certain conditions.


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    Wonderbar:

    I remain very confused as to whether it is better to lease or buy an expensive car like the Turbo.  RC seems to prefer the lease route, as he believes it saves him from being concerned about depreciation.  My accountant,, however, did a  very detailed comparison of buying or leasing a Panamera Turbo S, and concluded that buying the car (financing it over the same time as a lease) was slightly better.  The total lease payments were actually greater than the amount the car depreciated at the end of the purchase term.  

    To me the greatest advantage of the lease route is you can turn the car in at the end of the lease term, and not hassle with having to sell the car.  

    Comments welcomed..

    This is true. Buying the 991 Turbo S would probably "save" me 20-25k EUR for the 36 months period I have in mind, considering that the depreciation stays the same (something you never can know but anyway...). However: The 130k EUR I do NOT put into the car for the 36 months, I can invest and produce MORE money with them and in 36 months, this is definitely going to be more than 20-25k EUR. Simple equation. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2012), Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    Budster:

    I would always buy cash where I could, but I think I understand RC's reasons:

    1. He gets a VAT deduction on a passenger car for his business (something we don't get in SA and I find surprising that it exists in Germany - but good luck to RC!)

    Nope, you are wrong. I do not lease the 991 Turbo S for my business, I lease it privately. The IRS would not accept such an expensive car or they would consider 1% of the new car's value per month as a profit, meaning that putting the car on the business would generate an additional profit of aprox. 24k EUR per year, which is not good for me because I would slip into a different tax category. The advantage of the lease as a private person? Well: If I buy the car as a private person, the car "looses" VAT deductibility. If I lease the car, even privately, the next person can deduct the VAT if necessary. We are talking 19% here.

    2. He'd rather keep have capital to invest in the stock market - there are better ways of gearing a portfolio and getting the interest deductibility on it, but with interest rates at near zero I suppose this is less of an issue in Germany.

    I had a 27% gain (capital investment) last year, I don't know any better method to produce money. Interest rates are ridiculously low.

    3. He likes the certainty of the residual (all it what you will - but it's in the pricing) 

    Yep.

    So i don't think it's actually as much to do with a simple discounted cash flow comparison as those separate 3 points.  There's no way a typical DCF comparison would come to a lease answer.

    Right. For me, leasing is perfect. For others, it may not be an advantage.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2012), Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    RC:
     
     The 130k EUR I do NOT put into the car for the 36 months, I can invest and produce MORE money with them and in 36 months, this is definitely going to be more than 20-25k EUR. Simple equation. Smiley

     

    Investing is not a sure thing though, you could lose money, no?


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    RC:
    Budster:

    I would always buy cash where I could, but I think I understand RC's reasons:

    1. He gets a VAT deduction on a passenger car for his business (something we don't get in SA and I find surprising that it exists in Germany - but good luck to RC!)

    Nope, you are wrong. I do not lease the 991 Turbo S for my business, I lease it privately. The IRS would not accept such an expensive car or they would consider 1% of the new car's value per month as a profit, meaning that putting the car on the business would generate an additional profit of aprox. 24k EUR per year, which is not good for me because I would slip into a different tax category. The advantage of the lease as a private person? Well: If I buy the car as a private person, the car "looses" VAT deductibility. If I lease the car, even privately, the next person can deduct the VAT if necessary. We are talking 19% here.

    OK, I'd misunderstood you on this previously.  But it's still odd - in most VAT jurisdictions you'd still get a deemed VAT deduction if buying a vehicle from someone who wasn't a VAT vendor (if indeed it was VAT deductible).  

    Interestingly the reason that double cab pick-ups are popular in SA is that businesses can get a VAT deduction for them, even though they are rarely used for putting anything but the dog and the surf board in the back.


    --


    Porsche Carrera GTS (2012); Porsche Cayenne Diesel (2012)


     
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