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    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    Japan Spec GTR = 500hp+

    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    Quote:
    Walter said:
    Quote:
    eclou said:
    AUM every published test so far is from cars given to the press. Press car = not consumer car. From the consumer side we have not seen any cars that match the reported acceleration times from the press.



    That is not true.

    Every test done in Great Britain has been done with constumer cars.
    Many GT-R owners have matched or even beat the 1/4 mile times from magazine tests.

    (I bet you will ignore what I just wrote and say that the GT-R is ugly and unreliable)




    explain how they are consumer cars if the GTR is not released in the UK until 2009?

    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    Quote:
    eclou said:
    explain how they are consumer cars if the GTR is not released in the UK until 2009?



    Imports?

    People in Great Britain import JDM cars for years, You can find Evo IV or even Subarus 22B there.

    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    Quote:
    Walter said:
    (I bet you will ignore what I just wrote and say that the GT-R is ugly and unreliable)



    You left out:
    1. To get the advertised 0-60 time acceleration time, you need to use launch control. If you use launch control, you have to turn VDC off. If you turn VDC off, warranty is voided.
    2. The tranny costs US $20,000 to replace (about 25% the cost of the new car).
    3. If the clutch needs replacement from wear, you need to replace the whole tranny. Cost = 20k.
    4. Owners are now questioning the reliability of the tranny.
    5. Problem with wheel hop.
    6. Variable power delivery depending on countries and cars. Like a lottery.
    7. Tires that probably will need replacement every 5000 miles.

    Everything points to a heavy car (near 4000 lbs!), designed to be cheap, with not enough consideration for reliability or long term customers' satisfaction. And I agree, it's ugly beyond belief.

    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    Quote:
    Walter said:
    Quote:
    eclou said:
    explain how they are consumer cars if the GTR is not released in the UK until 2009?



    Imports?

    People in Great Britain import JDM cars for years, You can find Evo IV or even Subarus 22B there.




    exactly my point here. No testing was done on UK spec cars, just as the US mag tests were not done on US spec cars. All journalist tested cars were Japan spec/press cars

    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    Quote:
    cannga said:
    You left out:
    1. To get the advertised 0-60 time acceleration time, you need to use launch control. If you use launch control, you have to turn VDC off. If you turn VDC off, warranty is voided.
    2. The tranny costs US $20,000 to replace (about 25% the cost of the new car).
    3. If the clutch needs replacement from wear, you need to replace the whole tranny. Cost = 20k.
    4. Owners are now questioning the reliability of the tranny.
    5. Problem with wheel hop.
    6. Variable power delivery depending on countries and cars. Like a lottery.
    7. Tires that probably will need replacement every 5000 miles.

    Everything points to a heavy car (near 4000 lbs!), designed to be cheap, with not enough consideration for reliability or long term customers' satisfaction. And I agree, it's ugly beyond belief.



    1. I personally don't care about 0-100 times. Besides people that go to the drag strip and post some of the best times for the GT-R so far didn't had any problems. Warranty is not voided.

    2. 12k?

    3. 12k?

    4. Stupid owners that launched the car more than 20 times in the break in period, yes. Find me another car with a similar gear box that can do that without any problems.

    5. That's something no car has ever had before. Good point.

    6. Even the slowest GT-R in a straight line wasn't that much slower than a GT2 on the track, it was faster than the Z06.

    7. That depends on how you drive the car.

    Does the Gt-R have its faults? Yes, of course. Is it anywhere near as bad as some people say it is? No, not at all.

    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    Quote:
    eclou said:
    exactly my point here. No testing was done on UK spec cars, just as the US mag tests were not done on US spec cars. All journalist tested cars were Japan spec/press cars



    Except the one that was tested by Driver's Republic. The steering wheel wasn't where it should have been to be a JDM spec car. It was probably a US spec car and it was as fast as the GT2 and LP560-4 around the track but it was slower than the Carrera S in the straight line.
    No doubt, best ringer/press car ever.

    How much slower do you think will the EU spec GT-R be compared to the JDM and US version?

    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    1. The context is using VDC for launch control to achieve 0-60 advertised time. In this context, yes warranty is voided. If you are still denying this, then you simply have not done your homework before this discussion. Without VDC, the car's 0-60 time is around 4 seconds -- another deception/lie by Nissan. And while you may not care about 0-100 time, owners ARE reporting that the care feels "bogs down" without launch control.
    http://www.nagtroc.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=25504
    The car totally bogs down, I tested it a few times with a gtec timer, and there really is no difference between power braking and just nailing it from a dig, the car bogs VERY badly and falls on it's face. Seriously, my wife's audi Q7 4.2 would jump the GT-R for the first 20 feet.

    2. Yes, approximate numbers: 12-13k part, 6-7k labor from nagtrog. Twenty thousands US dollars.

    3. Yes 20,000 thousand US $ for clutch. The clutch cannot be repaired/replaced by itself.
    http://www.nagtroc.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=25374&st=20&start=20
    First off, the clutch is indeed completely integrated, and there is no way (nor any plans from Nissan that my representative knew of) to change that. If the clutch fails, the entire transmission package will need replacement (recommended).

    4. Stupid? It's your right to use such strong word on people you don't know. Deceived is what I think. This is a car of deception and lies. It's a fast car, that much I grant you. Everything else about it is deception and lies.

    5. I know it's an excellent point. You know the consequence of wheel hop, don't you? 20,000 US dollars.

    6. Wrong. Please read that thread again and get your facts straight. Unless he has changed his story, what was said about the slow car of the bunch is that the US spec GT-R accelerates on a par with the new PDK 997 C2. Imagine that, US spec GT-R, and who knows what other countries, is on par with the NON-TURBO ENGINE 997. This is a particularly disturbing aspect of this car: Variable power delivery.
    I have to hand it to Nissan, they were able to convince gullible press and deceived customers into thinking a 3839 lbs., 485 hp car could run neck and neck with 3172 lbs, 530 hp. Imagine that, outweighed by 700 lbs and can't keep up. How sad for Porsche's GT-2. I am not going to try to convince you on this.

    7. I have read that durometer testing has showed stock tires to be as soft as NT-01's and much softer than the regular market RE070's. In other words, R-compound. Kept at track setting, the tires' expectancy is 5000 miles. This is the only item out of this list of 7 that is a prediction and is not 100% confirmed. It's a minor point and in fact I am not too critical about it. The rest, 1 to 6, are facts.

    Please do your homework; you will find truth in all 7 of these items, because they are all sourced from ACTUAL USERS of the confusion and chaos that is nagtroc.
    This is a fast car, but one has got to be absolutely out of his mind to get this car at this point. Lastly, another fact that I will add as number 8 next time: this car's astounding ugliness is universally accepted across the 6 continents. Amazing.

    See enclosed picture: Nissan lays out plans to handle F-cars.

    Quote:
    Walter said:
    Quote:
    cannga said:
    You left out:
    1. To get the advertised 0-60 time acceleration time, you need to use launch control. If you use launch control, you have to turn VDC off. If you turn VDC off, warranty is voided.
    2. The tranny costs US $20,000 to replace (about 25% the cost of the new car).
    3. If the clutch needs replacement from wear, you need to replace the whole tranny. Cost = 20k.
    4. Owners are now questioning the reliability of the tranny.
    5. Problem with wheel hop.
    6. Variable power delivery depending on countries and cars. Like a lottery.
    7. Tires that probably will need replacement every 5000 miles.

    Everything points to a heavy car (near 4000 lbs!), designed to be cheap, with not enough consideration for reliability or long term customers' satisfaction. And I agree, it's ugly beyond belief.



    1. I personally don't care about 0-100 times. Besides people that go to the drag strip and post some of the best times for the GT-R so far didn't had any problems. Warranty is not voided.

    2. 12k?

    3. 12k?

    4. Stupid owners that launched the car more than 20 times in the break in period, yes. Find me another car with a similar gear box that can do that without any problems.

    5. That's something no car has ever had before. Good point.

    6. Even the slowest GT-R in a straight line wasn't that much slower than a GT2 on the track, it was faster than the Z06.

    7. That depends on how you drive the car.

    Does the Gt-R have its faults? Yes, of course. Is it anywhere near as bad as some people say it is? No, not at all.



    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    >>>>>>>>>>
    It was probably a US spec car and it was as fast as the GT2 and LP560-4 around the track but it was slower than the Carrera S in the straight line.
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    Walter,

    Read your statement again, does this make any sense to you at all? That a car that is slower than a Carrera S in a straight line ends up faster than a GT-2 and LP560-4 on the track?
    Really does it make any sense whatsoever to you at all?

    Where is the source/URL of this amazing assessment please?

    Quote:
    Walter said:
    Quote:
    eclou said:
    exactly my point here. No testing was done on UK spec cars, just as the US mag tests were not done on US spec cars. All journalist tested cars were Japan spec/press cars



    Except the one that was tested by Driver's Republic. The steering wheel wasn't where it should have been to be a JDM spec car. It was probably a US spec car and it was as fast as the GT2 and LP560-4 around the track but it was slower than the Carrera S in the straight line.
    No doubt, best ringer/press car ever.

    How much slower do you think will the EU spec GT-R be compared to the JDM and US version?


    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    ^^^ Correction; I meant to write: "That a car that is slower than a Carrera S in a straight line ends up as fast (not faster) than a GT-2 and LP560-4 around the track." Still, does that make any sense to you at all? Is there a chance you did not understand this situation correctly?

    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    Quote:
    cannga said:
    ^^^ Correction; I meant to write: "That a car that is slower than a Carrera S in a straight line ends up as fast (not faster) than a GT-2 and LP560-4 around the track." Still, does that make any sense to you at all? Is there a chance you did not understand this situation correctly?



    No?
    http://www.drivers-republic.com/

    And yes, those people are bloody stupid for thinking they can abuse the car and expect that everything is covered under warranty, As I said, many owners that took their car to the drag strip didn't had any problems with car and regularly beat the claimed times from Nissan.

    As for the power delivery and the drag race between the 997 S and GT-R, it's funny that nobody wonders if it wasn't the Porsche that was much faster than it should have been...

    SteveD from Drivers Republic said that tire wear was even on all 4 tires and iirc he said it wasn't all that bad. Again, tire wear (just like fuel consumption) is very dependant on the driving style of the driver.

    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    Walter,

    I was hoping for a more specific quote, you don't have that? But never mind, forget about Drivers Republic for now. Just based on commone sense, you think there is no problem at all about your statement: That a car that is slower than a Non Turbo 997 in a straight line, could in fact be as fast as the Porsche GT-2 around the track? That very same car?

    Do you think there is a possibility that you have misunderstood that original statement by the major review institution that is Driver's Republic? This is your last chance to retract your statement so you don't lose further credibility -- it's clear you have not done your homework before entering this discussion (clutch cost, warranty, transmmission cost, wheel hop).

    Just a friendly warning: there are many Porsche seasoned veterans lurking on this forum. Some not as patient as I am. If it seems I am doing a common sense check, that's because I am. I've found common sense to be the missing ingredient among many GT-R supporters clinging on to the 7:29 myth.

    Quote:
    Walter said:
    No?
    http://www.drivers-republic.com/

    And yes, those people are bloody stupid for thinking they can abuse the car and expect that everything is covered under warranty, As I said, many owners that took their car to the drag strip didn't had any problems with car and regularly beat the claimed times from Nissan.

    As for the power delivery and the drag race between the 997 S and GT-R, it's funny that nobody wonders if it wasn't the Porsche that was much faster than it should have been...

    SteveD from Drivers Republic said that tire wear was even on all 4 tires and iirc he said it wasn't all that bad. Again, tire wear (just like fuel consumption) is very dependant on the driving style of the driver.


    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    Quote:
    cannga said:
    If it seems I am doing a common sense check, that's because I am. I've found common sense to be the missing ingredient among many GT-R supporters clinging on to the 7:29 myth.




    Perfect summary. Some people are very gullible. Experience in the sportscar world and gut feeling should reveal the truth about the GTR The difference between Rennteam and other forums is that we have a lot of experienced sportscar users here. Consequently, the common view on the GTR is quite cautious. Recent news flow about the GTR more and more confirms our very conservative perspective

    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    BTW, Nissan shown in Paris EU version of GT-R. It is little bit heavier then any other versions(around 20kg). Just still NO final specs on fuel consumption or CO2 emissions... BUT, new top speed in latest German catalogue is 314km/h...

    OH... And talked to one guy who drove US import GT-R around Oschersleben... It was NOT any faster on that track then R8 or 997.2CS(SPASM). Interesting, isn't it?

    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    http://www.topgear.com/uk/car-news/porsche-vs-nissan

    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    "Experience in the sportscar world and gut feeling should reveal the truth about the GTR"

    The truth is know only through independent tests. Opinions, assumptions and gut feelings of experienced sports car owners are commonplace, contradictory and useless in this debate as they lack any objective substance.

    People who impose their gut feelings on others are an irrelevant nuisance.

    Those who are really interested in the truth (rather than clinging to their preconceptions) will put their assumptions and opinions aside and stick to real evidence from independent tests.

    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    Quote:
    AUM said:
    "Experience in the sportscar world and gut feeling should reveal the truth about the GTR"

    The truth is know only through independent tests. Opinions, assumptions and gut feelings of experienced sports car owners are commonplace, contradictory and useless in this debate as they lack any objective substance.

    People who impose their gut feelings on others are an irrelevant nuisance.

    Those who are really interested in the truth (rather than clinging to their preconceptions) will put their assumptions and opinions aside and stick to real evidence from independent tests.



    There are no independant tests of the cars to be sold in Europe... However, there are plenty of reports regarding serious quality and reliability issues. Also, Sportauto and Porsche did a NBR time 7.50 (+/-) in the GTR.

    Anybody who believes in the 7.29 time is gullible and lacks judgement. You may be of another opion - however, you are part of a very small minority

    BTW, I spent some time in Mugello last week. There were plenty of sportscar drivers (Ferrari, McLaren, Porsche, Corvette, even a guy who tracks a recent Ferrari F1 car ). I did not find anybody in that group of sportscar enthusiasts who believed in this miraculous lap time of 7.29... One needs to be VERY desperate to believe in this Nissan BS.

    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    There are lots of independent tests of the GTR. Read the evidence presented in these tests.

    It is pointless to argue about the Nissan 7.29 claim as it cannot be proved or disproved. i don't know if it is true or not. I do know the GTR has similar (sometimes faster) lap times to the GT2 in independent tests.

    GTR reliability may be another issue. Time will tell. But the existing performance tests are pretty conclusive.

    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    Quote:
    AUM said:
    There are lots of independent tests of the GTR. Read the evidence presented in these tests.

    It is pointless to argue about the Nissan 7.29 claim as it cannot be proved or disproved. i don't know if it is true or not. I do know the GTR has similar (sometimes faster) lap times to the GT2 in independent tests.

    GTR reliability may be another issue. Time will tell. But the existing performance tests are pretty conclusive.



    It is absolutely impossible that the GTR will get close to GT2 lap times on normal race tracks

    The test you are referring to is the one where the Audi R8 was also as fast as the GT2... Do you really want to discuss such test material? That is ridiculous.

    Anybody who seriously writes about a GTR being as fast as a Scuderia or GT2 cannot be taken seriously Sorry, this is not another BS discussion board but Rennteam.

    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    Check the lap times:

    http://www.fastestlaps.com/index.php?page_id=compare&car1=46a06c22ab41a&car2=4717b80e35715

    There are ten tracks (excluding the Ring were the GTR has no independent time). The GTR wins 6 of the them and the GT2 wins 4. Two others are almost a draw. Conclusions based on these tests: GTR and GT2 are close on ten tracks. Drivers Republic reached the same conclusion after extensive testing and lapping of both cars.

    Frankly as a rennteam moderator you are getting the forum a bad name.

    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    No comment

    Stock GTR = TehArt in 1/4 Mile test

    http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id=31&article_id=7074

    Lap times:

    - D3 Cadillac CTS: 1:34.94
    - Spoon NSX-R GT: 1:31.09
    - TechArt GTstreet 911 Turbo: 1:29.06
    - Mine's GTR: 1:25.79





    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    Quote:
    AUM said:
    Check the lap times:

    http://www.fastestlaps.com/index.php?page_id=compare&car1=46a06c22ab41a&car2=4717b80e35715

    There are ten tracks (excluding the Ring were the GTR has no independent time). The GTR wins 6 of the them and the GT2 wins 4. Two others are almost a draw. Conclusions based on these tests: GTR and GT2 are close on ten tracks. Drivers Republic reached the same conclusion after extensive testing and lapping of both cars.

    Frankly as a rennteam moderator you are getting the forum a bad name.



    Don't worry about the "name of the forum". This is none of your business. Summary tables like the above are misleading. Did you read the tests behind the figures? Did you check the figures?

    It is absolute nonsense to believe that the GTR will be as quick as a Scuderia or GT2 in a reliable test on a standard type race track (I am not referring to tests by Japanese TV channels here... Also, I am not referring to tests were an Audi R8 is as fast as as GT2...).

    Compared to a GT2 the GTR:

    - is about 200kg heavier (if not more)
    - has 50hp less
    - has no cup tires
    - has AWD (no AWD car has been faster than a comparable RWD version in recent years)

    And you believe that the GTR can keep up on a race track

    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    Please supply test data evidence to back up your opinions and assumptions. I expect moderators to be more objective and better informed.

    Only one test was in Japan the rest were n the USA and UK. And yes I read many of the tests and saw the data. The GTR corners faster than the GT2.

    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    I want to underline that I am not a GTR fan. I am a Porsche fan and I want my team to win. But we can't ignore the evidence of independent tests and expect to retain credibility.

    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    Quote:
    AUM said:
    Please supply test data evidence to back up your opinions and assumptions. I expect moderators to be more objective and better informed.



    Quit playing the mderator card, it shows lack of argumentation, and so far its been a good discussion. You should be more open to other's opinions hold not understimate the knowledge of people you don't know about.

    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    can i just clarify Porsche is upset because they reckon the nissan used semi slicks,yet porsche times on the ring for the gt2 suggest a minimal time difference (just over 2 seconds for the semi slick equipped car ) ?

    Also lets be blunt here ring times are only valid in comparisons if they were done on the same day/conditions and by the same driver.
    Also those pointing out that maths wise the power to weight ratio of the GTR means it cannot be faster,are ignoring that all the GTR's that have been independantly dyno'd are producing circa 530bhp.
    Autocar's best handling car (which the Nissan won) illustrated how fast you can corner it,the car was fractionally slower over a road course than the LP560,but the GTR was limited to 112mph,now the gallardo hit over 135mph on some sections,they said without the limiter the GTR would have been 3-4 seconds quicker than the gallardo which is a formidable car.
    Aums arguments are sound ,the GTR beats the GT2 on most circuits where they have been compared,do people believe that every magazine is owned by Nissan ?
    times change and cars improve (generally) .accept Nissan has produced a masterpiece,you don't have to buy one ..I won't it has limited appeal to me ,but I know in a straight line and round any track it will slaughter my car,but so what ? I still love my car.

    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    Quote:
    Carlos from Spain said:
    Quote:
    AUM said:
    Please supply test data evidence to back up your opinions and assumptions. I expect moderators to be more objective and better informed.



    Quit playing the mderator card, it shows lack of argumentation, and so far its been a good discussion. You should be more open to other's opinions hold not understimate the knowledge of people you don't know about.



    People who habitually base their opinions on assumptions rather than facts and test data may not be suitable as moderators.

    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    Quote:
    cannga said:
    Walter,

    I was hoping for a more specific quote, you don't have that? But never mind, forget about Drivers Republic for now. Just based on commone sense, you think there is no problem at all about your statement: That a car that is slower than a Non Turbo 997 in a straight line, could in fact be as fast as the Porsche GT-2 around the track? That very same car?

    Do you think there is a possibility that you have misunderstood that original statement by the major review institution that is Driver's Republic? This is your last chance to retract your statement so you don't lose further credibility -- it's clear you have not done your homework before entering this discussion (clutch cost, warranty, transmmission cost, wheel hop).

    Just a friendly warning: there are many Porsche seasoned veterans lurking on this forum. Some not as patient as I am. If it seems I am doing a common sense check, that's because I am. I've found common sense to be the missing ingredient among many GT-R supporters clinging on to the 7:29 myth.



    SteveD is a member here. If you have any further questions, send him a PM and maybe he will respond to you (I'm sure he will, he's a cool guy).

    Here are the videos:
    997.2 S, GT-R, R8, Aston
    LP560-4 Telemetry Lap
    GT-R Telemetry Lap
    GT2 Telemetry Lap

    And a little article:
    The story behind that 7 minute 29 second lap


    Why the friendly warning?

    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    Quote:
    Carlos from Spain said:
    Quit playing the mderator card, it shows lack of argumentation, and so far its been a good discussion. You should be more open to other's opinions hold not understimate the knowledge of people you don't know about.



    I don't think you can say that he lacks arguments when he posted a link where the GT-R was compared to the GT2 on 10 different tracks.

    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    Quote:
    franki68 said:
    Autocar's best handling car (which the Nissan won) illustrated how fast you can corner it,the car was fractionally slower over a road course than the LP560,but the GTR was limited to 112mph,now the gallardo hit over 135mph on some sections,they said without the limiter the GTR would have been 3-4 seconds quicker than the gallardo which is a formidable car.



    They won't believe you until someone posts a video.
    Autocar: Britain's best driver's car

    IIRC Steve Sutcliff (sp?) was the journalist that wrote an article about why he was sure that Nissan cheated on the Nurburgring. And now, he knows that a GT-R with a speed limiter can keep up with a LP560-4.

     
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