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    Re: New Cayenne - first impressions from Geneva (Wonderbar)

    Tim:

     I agree, there's no such thing as a free lunch. If Bmw gives discounts of 20% on their products they are overpriced to begin with. Maybe the huge rebates are factored in from the start as some weird psychological marketing ploy to give customers a good feeling. "Hey I made such a great deal!" This is not to say that they aren't terrific cars, but still overpriced for the market.

    It's the same in the high end piano market where a grand can easily list for 100k, but will actually sell for 60. It's ridiculous.

     

    Exactly. Now what does this tell you about the Cayenne ?! Smiley Smiley

    Most BMW dealers gave X5/X6 rebates around 12-15% without a sweat and without even asking for it. My BMW dealer offered 21% to me without me even asking for a rebate and I'm not kidding. The X5 facelift/X6 technology update have lower rebates in the 10% range but it shouldn't take long until this situation improves as soon as the novelty factor fades and the new competition (VW Touareg, Porsche Cayenne) is felt.

    It is also a huge surprise for me that Porsche actually increased Cayenne prices. I just hope this works for them, even if I still think that the new Cayenne will sell at the beginning better than the Panamera. Time will tell.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (03/2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW


    Re: New Cayenne - first impressions from Geneva (Wonderbar)

    In a great % of sales (but not always of course) Porsche dealers just take orders. Of course not always but in the majority of cases customers have already decided when they walk into a Porsche Centre. If I wanted  the iconic Carrera for example, I wouldn't care about M3 deals or if I fancy a supersports limousine Panamera Turbo I shall be indifferent to any 7 series soft finance schemes.

    In the case of BMW the majority of buyers have to be convinced and /or induced to buy the product. Usually they have shopped around Mercedes or Audi or even lower brands like Ford or Opel in the case of the cheaper BMW models.

    This trend is reflected on how much the dealer takes home for his effort.

     


    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

    Re: New Cayenne - first impressions from Geneva (Wonderbar)

    reginos:

    In a great % of sales (but not always of course) Porsche dealers just take orders. Of course not always but in the majority of cases customers have already decided when they walk into a Porsche Centre. If I wanted  the iconic Carrera for example, I wouldn't care about M3 deals or if I fancy a supersports limousine Panamera Turbo I shall be indifferent to any 7 series soft finance schemes.

     

    There might be some truth behind it. That certainly applies for the iconic models but deploying that strategy on the Panamera and Cayenne is certainly a challenge. Curious how the situation will develop, especially for dealerships, when the first Panamera lease cars are returned.

    There have been huge rebates on limousines in Germany for quite some time, especially in that surrounding it is a challenge for Porsche to launch the four-door model. Making great offers but keeping official prices high gives BMW a chance to return to less generious offers should the market settle again. If that is the case though... Smiley


    Re: New Cayenne - first impressions from Geneva (Wonderbar)

    Porsche can't stay out of the rebate game. It was different with the 911 and Boxster maybe but with the Cayenne and especially the Panamera, things have changed. These are cars bought by business customers in Germany and they want the best deal possible.

    The problem is that the Porsche dealer profit margin is pretty low, so up to 10% rebate are OK but everything over 11-12% is almost impossible. Of course some dealers can take a car for a month or three on the business and sell it even with more rebate to customers but premium customers usually want a new car and not a car used by anyone else, so this is a tough thing.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (03/2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW


    Re: New Cayenne - first impressions from Geneva (Wonderbar)

    RC:
    palenimbus:.

     Christian, are the changes of the exterior styling between the 991 and the 997 as drastic as perhaps the changes between the 993 and 996? or more in line with the changes from the 996 to 997?


    In my opinion, the frontlight design change is drastic but Porsche-typical. I'm more into the simple design of the 997...as a hint. Smiley


    Please RC, can you tell us if the new headligthts are more similiar to the style on the Panamera and new Cayenne??? please... Smiley


    Re: New Cayenne - first impressions from Geneva (Wonderbar)

    They aren't as "simple" in design as I've hoped for.  

    Apparently Porsche wants to reply to some design criticism but in my opinion, the 911 lives from tradition. Once they change the shape and design completely, the model could die.

    Thanks god the shape stays (almost) the same. 


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (03/2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW


    Re: New Cayenne - first impressions from Geneva (Wonderbar)

     The shape changed a lot from the 993 to the 996 but still looks like a 911, so if they change the shape from the 997 I hope it looks a little more like the 993.


    Re: New Cayenne - first impressions from Geneva (Wonderbar)

    palenimbus:

     The shape changed a lot from the 993 to the 996 but still looks like a 911, so if they change the shape from the 997 I hope it looks a little more like the 993.

     

    The 9991 is getting slightly bigger, not only because there will be slightly more rear passenger but because of future US emissions law regulations. It is difficult to understand but Porsche needs to adapt.

    I like the 993 but I like the 997 much more. So I (and apparently Porsche) can't see any point in adapting the 993 shape, this ain't going to happen. 


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (03/2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW


    Re: New Cayenne - first impressions from Geneva (Wonderbar)

    RC:

    They aren't as "simple" in design as I've hoped for.  

    Apparently Porsche wants to reply to some design criticism but in my opinion, the 911 lives from tradition. Once they change the shape and design completely, the model could die.

    Thanks god the shape stays (almost) the same. 


    Ok, thank`s RC.

    I also like the traditional design but i would love to see a bit more evolution, mantaining the shape...

    And the PROPORTIONS (headlights and rear lights) are they ok with the rest of the car?

    I also remember to reed on press (on the 2004 997 release) that it was notorious a more MUSCULAR shape comparing with the 996. Are we gooing to see this again with the new 991? Is the new shape a bit more muscular or better proportioned comparing with the 997?

    Thank`s again


    Re: New Cayenne - first impressions from Geneva (Wonderbar)

    Thanks very much Wonderbar

    Carlos Smiley 


    --
    T4S & co gallery

    Re: New Cayenne - first impressions from Geneva (Wonderbar)

    RC:

    I

    Please do not confuse my cost related criticism with not liking the Cayenne. I definetely like the new Cayenne, especially the Turbo of course.

    If money is important and you can't afford the Turbo, I think the new Cayenne S delivers the best value for the buck. Just make sure you don't add too many options because you end up with a very expensive truck. Smiley To me, the driving dynamics options are the most important ones, do not spend thousands of EUR/USD on leather or Exclusive options because you'll NEVER see that money again when you want to sell the car. Get a decent optioned car with all driving dynamics enhancements minus PCCB. PCCB is great and I love it but the price tag is just too harsh to justify it on a SUV. Especially since a nice and sharp stone from off-roading can put you in a lot of trouble with PCCB.

     


     

    Christian, when I said that I would prefer the Cayenne over the X5, I was not refering to you specially, just that in the forum was soo much talk about the Cayenne over X5 and so on. Also there was soo much talking about the looks and and nobody has seen the car in real life.  And I understand very very well your argument about the price difference. As I said taking the price out I will prefer the Cayenne. Price back there is a very very strong argument in favour of BMW. I do see Porsche as a bit more expensive than the BMW, I mean in marketing terms, but not that much difference. So enjoy the X5M and have as much fun (trouble free of courseSmiley) with it as you can!!! Smiley


    --
    ALL PORSCHE ARE REAL PORSCHE!!!

    Re: New Cayenne - first impressions from Geneva (Wonderbar)

    I wouldn't have cared about the usual Porsche premium but 30-40% more is a bit too much for me (and a family car) and of course the lease cost is even worse with the Cayenne Turbo.

    Porsche and their dealers are aware of the BMW offers, I think (and hope) they will adapt soon, especially regarding the lease cost.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (03/2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW


    Re: New Cayenne - first impressions from Geneva (Wonderbar)

    I'm also expecting them to lower a bit the prices because is the 3rd time I have to say no to a Porsche and as you I'm looking now to a well equiped BMW instead to a Boxster, but hey maybe Porsche will hear it and change the price list


    --
    ALL PORSCHE ARE REAL PORSCHE!!!

    Re: New Cayenne - first impressions from Geneva (Wonderbar)

    Prices won't get lower but at least I hoped for better lease offers/rebates. Let's hope for the near future. 


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (03/2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW


    Re: New Cayenne - first impressions from Geneva (Wonderbar)

    This rebate game is stupid. What Porsche (actually all manufacturers) should do is make some options standard and keep the current price.

    Rebates hurt the dealer, the negociation process and leaves a bad taste in the mouth of the majority of buyers regardless of what rebate they got.

    It also hurts the price of used cars and in general messes up the whole used car market...


    Re: New Cayenne - first impressions from Geneva (Wonderbar)

    Sounds interesting...never gonna happen. 


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    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (03/2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW


    Re: New Cayenne - first impressions from Geneva (Wonderbar)

    SciFrog:

    This rebate game is stupid. What Porsche (actually all manufacturers) should do is make some options standard and keep the current price.

    Rebates hurt the dealer, the negociation process and leaves a bad taste in the mouth of the majority of buyers regardless of what rebate they got.

    It also hurts the price of used cars and in general messes up the whole used car market...


    Which is to say that it devalues / cheapens the brand... which is so very long to build in the first place.


    --

    Slow In, Fast Out


    Re: New Cayenne - first impressions from Geneva (Wonderbar)

    RC:

    Prices won't get lower but at least I hoped for better lease offers/rebates. Let's hope for the near future. 


    Yes I know that! And I'm expecting also a better offer because at this moment at least in Madrid at my OPC there are no offers what so ever. Maybe Panamera but I'm not interested in that!


    --
    ALL PORSCHE ARE REAL PORSCHE!!!

    Re: New Cayenne - first impressions from Geneva (Wonderbar)

    Let me put it this way, a FULLY optioned brand new Audi A8 4.2 (either diesel or petrol) costs as much as an equivalent Cayenne S, the Hybrid S being MORE expensive.  Same exercise of course with a Mercedes S and 7 series.  In fact a CT costs as much as a 4 door Bentley Flying Spur!!!

    No offense, but we are talking about a car based on a Touareg chassis which probably costs P no more than E27.500 ex engine.  I love the Cayenne, and at £15.000 less (E17.000, car is cheaper in the UK on top of that) I would jump on it, remembering that in the UK you will not get much of a discount.

    What annoys me more than anything though are the twin evils of Europe subsidising the US market, even the UK market now, and Porsche starting to really missplacing its range.  There was a reason the Cayenne sold so well, it targeted an area which criss-crossed between very high end 3 series / C classes / A4 estates all the way up to very low end 7 series / S classes / A8 taking all 4x4s with it.  In other words it is a very wide market where choices are dictated by a badge, style, boredom (how many of us are now on our 4-5-6 BMW / Merc / Audi of some kind of other) and family circonstances.

    These prices though are different, they are targeted at the luxury end of the market, same as the Panamera which is far more expensive than equivalent save for Bentley and AM.  I voted with an XFR, I cannot see myself at all go for a Cayenne, especially once the BMW / Merc / Audi hybrids 4x4s are out.  As for the Touareg we still have a MkI in the family and I much prefer my own X5, although as per previous totally bored on BMWs now.

     


    Re: New Cayenne - first impressions from Geneva (Wonderbar)

     I think it has been mentioned that the Tourag is based on the Cayenne chassis, not the other way.


    Re: New Cayenne - first impressions from Geneva (Wonderbar)

    palenimbus:

     I think it has been mentioned that the Tourag is based on the Cayenne chassis, not the other way.

     

    Which makes the Touareg an even better offer. Smiley

    I'm pretty fond of the Touareg V8 Diesel with that whopping 800 Nm torque.

    Surprisingly, the Touareg V8 Diesel is even faster from 0-100 kph than the Cayenne S.

    5.8 seconds from 0-100 kph...very impressive for a VW Diesel SUV.

    Fully optioned, you can get this baby for slightly over 70000 EUR after rebate.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (on the ship), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW


    Re: New Cayenne - first impressions from Geneva (Wonderbar)

     Sorry the redesign now makes it look like all the middle priced SUV's which it is not. At least before, though somewhat ugly, it was my ugly. 


    --

     


    Re: New Cayenne - first impressions from Geneva (Wonderbar)

    I don't think the new Cayenne looks ugly but I wish it would look a bit different in the rear.

    This would be my Cayenne if I would order one.

    MyPorsche.jpg

     

    MyPorsche2.jpg


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (on the ship), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW


    Re: New Cayenne - first impressions from Geneva (Wonderbar)

     Saw the Cayenne II in Geneva yesterday and my personal opinion is that it's a nice car but no stunner.


    Re: New Cayenne - first impressions from Geneva (Wonderbar)

     A "stunner" would have been a serious problem for Porsche because they would sell even less cars in Europe.

    It is interesting to read various opinions and impressions but many of you seem to forget that we still have a serious financial crisis at hand and that showing off, at least over here in Europe, is plain and simple a total "no-go".

    Maybe Porsche should seriously consider designing two different Panamera/Cayenne product lines: one more "obvious" and another one which is more subtle. Sounds ridiculous ? Well, I'm not quite sure about that anymore.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (on the ship), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW


    Re: New Cayenne - first impressions from Geneva (Wonderbar)

    I find the overall shape in silhouette of the new Cayenne very nice, a big improvement, but the rear lights and the Bangle like flame surfacing on the rear kills it for me.  There shouldn't be sharp lines and angles, at least they are contained in the area that should be easy to change in a few years. RC, I definitely see why you have this in mind 3 years down the road, both  improved public perception and "stunner" might be just a facelift away.


    Re: New Cayenne - first impressions from Geneva (Wonderbar)

    Good point RC. Indeed, this new cars are neither obvious nor subtle. Thats why they are so controversial. Both lines are having the huge Porsche bonus! Imagine a Panamera without that Porsche tag on the front, would you still like it? Same with the new Cayenne, they both are great cars but not special enough to stand out!


    Re: New Cayenne - first impressions from Geneva (Wonderbar)

    This is a nice suv and would like to see it being put to test competing with the X5M and X6M. Too bad neither the sport kit nor GTS is available at this stage! Wondering when the GTS will join the group?


    Re: New Cayenne - first impressions from Geneva (Wonderbar)

    superfans:

    This is a nice suv and would like to see it being put to test competing with the X5M and X6M. Too bad neither the sport kit nor GTS is available at this stage! Wondering when the GTS will join the group?

     

    Since Porsche has already made comparisons during development, I can tell you only one thing: the new Cayenne is pretty impressive on the track but the difference, especially compared to the X6 M, isn't outstanding but noticeable. The tire choice apparently was very important too in this.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (on the ship), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW


    Re: New Cayenne - first impressions from Geneva (Wonderbar)

    dr.j:

    RC, I definitely see why you have this in mind 3 years down the road, both  improved public perception and "stunner" might be just a facelift away.

     

    You got me. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (on the ship), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW


     
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