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    Re: New Cayenne - first impressions from Geneva (Wonderbar)

    I don't see why you guys are complaining about the Cayennes prices, which I think is reasonably priced in North America.  It is the Panameras that are overpriced.

    X5M is the performance bargain SUV no doubt, but I don't think Porsche is a company that will look at BMW and adjust its prices at all.

    And if you guys think Porsche is expensive, then don't even think about buying Aston, Bentley, Ferrari and Lambo...

    OK, my flamesuit is on.

     


    --

    Tim

    2010 997.2 GT3RS, January build;  2008 Cayenne Turbo;  2006 911 Club Coupe #13;  2006 BMW 530xi


    Re: New Cayenne - first impressions from Geneva (Wonderbar)

    Targa Tim:

    I don't see why you guys are complaining about the Cayennes prices, which I think is reasonably priced in North America.  It is the Panameras that are overpriced.

    X5M is the performance bargain SUV no doubt, but I don't think Porsche is a company that will look at BMW and adjust its prices at all.

    And if you guys think Porsche is expensive, then don't even think about buying Aston, Bentley, Ferrari and Lambo...

    OK, my flamesuit is on.

     

     +1

    There is always a cheaper better performer...

    But sometimes, performance is not everything. The ownership experience goes beyond performance and relative bargain.

    The problem of the Panamera price is vs the Cayenne. The premium is not justified.


    Re: New Cayenne - first impressions from Geneva (Wonderbar)

    Targa Tim:

    I don't see why you guys are complaining about the Cayennes prices, which I think is reasonably priced in North America.  It is the Panameras that are overpriced.

    X5M is the performance bargain SUV no doubt, but I don't think Porsche is a company that will look at BMW and adjust its prices at all.

    And if you guys think Porsche is expensive, then don't even think about buying Aston, Bentley, Ferrari and Lambo...

    OK, my flamesuit is on.

     


     

    Even the Panamera is a bargain in the US, compared to german prices for example.

    The Panamera Turbo is 132600 USD in the US, incl. lets say 8% tax, it costs 143200 USD.

    In Germany, the price tag of the Panamera Turbo is 135154 EUR incl. 19% german VAT.

    Taking the current exchange rate of 1.36 USD for 1 EUR, the Panamera Turbo costs 183809 USD in Germany. This is a premium of 40609 USD.

    I know I shouldn't do this and there are more factors involved in exchange rates and market prices than I'm taking account of but still...40609 USD ?

    Compared to the US, the Panamera Turbo should cost 116025 EUR incl. 19% german VAT in Germany and this would definetely be a much more competitive price in Germany.

    I understand that Porsche is charging a premium but the question is: who is going to pay this premium ? Customers like me, longtime Porsche customers and hardcore Porsche fans, aren't stupid. We love to pay a premium if the product is worth it and if it stands out of the crowd compared to the competition. I can't see that regarding the Cayenne Turbo right now and the Panamera Turbo is a fine product and definitely competitive...until the new BMW M5 shows up.

    Sorry, Porsche but paying a premium for a superior product is one thing. Getting ripped off is another one, I'm just not into that stuff.

    Lets take the Cayenne as an example: almost everything you can't see on this car has actually a VW logo on it. Does this mean it is better quality than BMW ? Lets take the engines, Porsche-made, right. BMW has raced in the Formula One over the past few years, do they build bad engines ? I doubt it.

    Customers like me or like others here in the forums are car nuts and pretty much aware of the value a certain brand and model is providing. Porsche can't fool anybody and if they think that just the brand is worth a premium of 30%, I'm sorry, it isn't.

    The only Porsche products I really call "competitive" right now and I would pay the price for them are 997 GT3, 997 GT3 RS and the 997 Turbo/Turbo S. Even the regular 997 Carrera is a pretty competitive product but the competition already moved up (BMW M3, Audi RS5, Nissan GT-R, etc.).

    Remember the time when Porsche put the 993 Turbo on the market ? This car almost annihilated the competition in many ways, it was a fantastic offer at a somehow reasonable price. 

    The Panamera sales strategy should have been different: Porsche should have offered the Panamera at exactly the same price tag (incl. options) as the Cayenne. Let people decide what they want to drive, a SUV or a sedan. I bet they would have sold much more Panamera and trust me, they wouldn't have lost a dime in the process.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (on the ship), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW


    Re: New Cayenne - first impressions from Geneva (Wonderbar)

    RC:
    Targa Tim:

    I don't see why you guys are complaining about the Cayennes prices, which I think is reasonably priced in North America.  It is the Panameras that are overpriced.

    X5M is the performance bargain SUV no doubt, but I don't think Porsche is a company that will look at BMW and adjust its prices at all.

    And if you guys think Porsche is expensive, then don't even think about buying Aston, Bentley, Ferrari and Lambo...

    OK, my flamesuit is on.

     


     

    Even the Panamera is a bargain in the US, compared to german prices for example.

    The Panamera Turbo is 132600 USD in the US, incl. lets say 8% tax, it costs 143200 USD.

    In Germany, the price tag of the Panamera Turbo is 135154 EUR incl. 19% german VAT.

    Taking the current exchange rate of 1.36 USD for 1 EUR, the Panamera Turbo costs 183809 USD in Germany. This is a premium of 40609 USD.

    I know I shouldn't do this and there are more factors involved in exchange rates and market prices than I'm taking account of but still...40609 USD ?

    Compared to the US, the Panamera Turbo should cost 116025 EUR incl. 19% german VAT in Germany and this would definetely be a much more competitive price in Germany.

    I understand that Porsche is charging a premium but the question is: who is going to pay this premium ? Customers like me, longtime Porsche customers and hardcore Porsche fans, aren't stupid. We love to pay a premium if the product is worth it and if it stands out of the crowd compared to the competition. I can't see that regarding the Cayenne Turbo right now and the Panamera Turbo is a fine product and definitely competitive...until the new BMW M5 shows up.

    Sorry, Porsche but paying a premium for a superior product is one thing. Getting ripped off is another one, I'm just not into that stuff.

    Lets take the Cayenne as an example: almost everything you can't see on this car has actually a VW logo on it. Does this mean it is better quality than BMW ? Lets take the engines, Porsche-made, right. BMW has raced in the Formula One over the past few years, do they build bad engines ? I doubt it.

    Customers like me or like others here in the forums are car nuts and pretty much aware of the value a certain brand and model is providing. Porsche can't fool anybody and if they think that just the brand is worth a premium of 30%, I'm sorry, it isn't.

    The only Porsche products I really call "competitive" right now and I would pay the price for them are 997 GT3, 997 GT3 RS and the 997 Turbo/Turbo S. Even the regular 997 Carrera is a pretty competitive product but the competition already moved up (BMW M3, Audi RS5, Nissan GT-R, etc.).

    Remember the time when Porsche put the 993 Turbo on the market ? This car almost annihilated the competition in many ways, it was a fantastic offer at a somehow reasonable price. 

    The Panamera sales strategy should have been different: Porsche should have offered the Panamera at exactly the same price tag (incl. options) as the Cayenne. Let people decide what they want to drive, a SUV or a sedan. I bet they would have sold much more Panamera and trust me, they wouldn't have lost a dime in the process.


    +1

    I totally agree with you RC, the pricing for the Cayenne is completely ridiculous. I spec'ed a Cayenne S hybrid with all te normal toys you put on an SUV and the total price came to over £80K...FOR AN SUV...never.I bought my Cayenne S 6yrs ago for around £58k, today the car is worth about £14k. Might as well run it for another 6yrs. To be candid, these cars are well made but at the same time they don't justify the extra premium.

    I doubt the cureent cayenne model will have the same bumper sales the initial car had during it's first inception. Goodluck to Porsche and their sales strategy, but for sure I won't be paying £80k for an SUV Smiley not now not ever !


    Re: New Cayenne - first impressions from Geneva (Wonderbar)

    Italo:
    RC:
    Targa Tim:

    I don't see why you guys are complaining about the Cayennes prices, which I think is reasonably priced in North America.  It is the Panameras that are overpriced.

    X5M is the performance bargain SUV no doubt, but I don't think Porsche is a company that will look at BMW and adjust its prices at all.

    And if you guys think Porsche is expensive, then don't even think about buying Aston, Bentley, Ferrari and Lambo...

    OK, my flamesuit is on.

     


     

    Even the Panamera is a bargain in the US, compared to german prices for example.

    The Panamera Turbo is 132600 USD in the US, incl. lets say 8% tax, it costs 143200 USD.

    In Germany, the price tag of the Panamera Turbo is 135154 EUR incl. 19% german VAT.

    Taking the current exchange rate of 1.36 USD for 1 EUR, the Panamera Turbo costs 183809 USD in Germany. This is a premium of 40609 USD.

    I know I shouldn't do this and there are more factors involved in exchange rates and market prices than I'm taking account of but still...40609 USD ?

    Compared to the US, the Panamera Turbo should cost 116025 EUR incl. 19% german VAT in Germany and this would definetely be a much more competitive price in Germany.

    I understand that Porsche is charging a premium but the question is: who is going to pay this premium ? Customers like me, longtime Porsche customers and hardcore Porsche fans, aren't stupid. We love to pay a premium if the product is worth it and if it stands out of the crowd compared to the competition. I can't see that regarding the Cayenne Turbo right now and the Panamera Turbo is a fine product and definitely competitive...until the new BMW M5 shows up.

    Sorry, Porsche but paying a premium for a superior product is one thing. Getting ripped off is another one, I'm just not into that stuff.

    Lets take the Cayenne as an example: almost everything you can't see on this car has actually a VW logo on it. Does this mean it is better quality than BMW ? Lets take the engines, Porsche-made, right. BMW has raced in the Formula One over the past few years, do they build bad engines ? I doubt it.

    Customers like me or like others here in the forums are car nuts and pretty much aware of the value a certain brand and model is providing. Porsche can't fool anybody and if they think that just the brand is worth a premium of 30%, I'm sorry, it isn't.

    The only Porsche products I really call "competitive" right now and I would pay the price for them are 997 GT3, 997 GT3 RS and the 997 Turbo/Turbo S. Even the regular 997 Carrera is a pretty competitive product but the competition already moved up (BMW M3, Audi RS5, Nissan GT-R, etc.).

    Remember the time when Porsche put the 993 Turbo on the market ? This car almost annihilated the competition in many ways, it was a fantastic offer at a somehow reasonable price. 

    The Panamera sales strategy should have been different: Porsche should have offered the Panamera at exactly the same price tag (incl. options) as the Cayenne. Let people decide what they want to drive, a SUV or a sedan. I bet they would have sold much more Panamera and trust me, they wouldn't have lost a dime in the process.


    +1

    I totally agree with you RC, the pricing for the Cayenne is completely ridiculous. I spec'ed a Cayenne S hybrid with all te normal toys you put on an SUV and the total price came to over £80K...FOR AN SUV...never.I bought my Cayenne S 6yrs ago for around £58k, today the car is worth about £14k. Might as well run it for another 6yrs. To be candid, these cars are well made but at the same time they don't justify the extra premium.

    I doubt the cureent cayenne model will have the same bumper sales the initial car had during it's first inception. Goodluck to Porsche and their sales strategy, but for sure I won't be paying £80k for an SUV Smiley not now not ever !

     

    seems the whole Porsche range is a rip-off except the 911 of course
     

    below is an illustration for a Panamera 4s (used) for sale at £81,999....ouch

     

    Finance Example
    Product: PCP 
    Monthly payment: £1,398.35
    Total cash price: £81,999
    Deposit: £16,390.00
    Term: 37 Months
    Annual mileage: 10,000 m
    Final payment: £
    Guaranteed future value: £30,223
    APR: 10.5 %
    Total amount payable: £97,029

     

    just see how much you lose after 3yrs of ownership ! residuals on this car are definitely going to be really bad. Smiley


    Re: New Cayenne - first impressions from Geneva (Wonderbar)

    RC:
    Targa Tim:

    I don't see why you guys are complaining about the Cayennes prices, which I think is reasonably priced in North America.  It is the Panameras that are overpriced.

    X5M is the performance bargain SUV no doubt, but I don't think Porsche is a company that will look at BMW and adjust its prices at all.

    And if you guys think Porsche is expensive, then don't even think about buying Aston, Bentley, Ferrari and Lambo...

    OK, my flamesuit is on.

     


     

     

    Remember the time when Porsche put the 993 Turbo on the market ? This car almost annihilated the competition in many ways, it was a fantastic offer at a somehow reasonable price. 

     Wasn't porsche going bankrupt around that time as well?


    Re: New Cayenne - first impressions from Geneva (Wonderbar)

    palenimbus:

     Wasn't porsche going bankrupt around that time as well?

     

    Not because of the 993 Turbo. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (on the ship), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW


    Re: New Cayenne - first impressions from Geneva (Wonderbar)

    I agree with RC about the German prices compared to U.S.--seems German customers pay a substantial premium.  But I wonder if it is just a matter of the exchange rate (euro vs. dollar).  For example, if the exchange rate were one to one, wouldn't the prices in the U.S. and Germany be the same except for the VAT which pays for social benefits in Germany?  Not at all sure I am thinking clearly here, so enlighten me if I am wrong.

    Also, with regard to RC's comment about most of what you don't see in a Cayenne is the same or no better than other manufacturers, I cannot comment except to wonder if there are more off road or performance components in the Cayenne.  Also, on what you do see (the new Panamera type interior, for example), my guess is the Cayenne's interior is superior.  I sat in and evaluated a Toureg at Geneva, and the Cayenne interior is far superior. 

    Looking for comments here.  These are just my impressions...


    Re: New Cayenne - first impressions from Geneva (Wonderbar)

    Of course the Cayenne interior is by far superior to the Touareg interior. Like I said earlier, I think that the new Cayenne interior sets a new standard for SUVs.

    I would prefer the Touareg only if I'd choose the new V8 Diesel which performs better from 0-100 kph than the Cayenne S. Won't even mention the whopping 800 Nm torque of the Diesel.  

    Yes, german customers pay a substantial premium, even compared to UK prices. Don't have a clue why but it sucks bigtime.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (on the ship), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW


    Re: New Cayenne - first impressions from Geneva (Wonderbar)

    I don't buy in the argument that Porsche is overpriced. It places itself in the luxury segment with a premium, and the new interior show for it. YOU might not see the value, but some other will, and with the higher margins, Porsche doesn't need to sell as many cars.

    If you think Porsche is overpriced, what of Lambo Ferraris Maserati AM? Value is a very relative and personal argument. There is always something that will price you out.

    As for the US vs europe price, you need to remember this doesn't affect only Porsche, Mercedes and BWM and Audi to name a few are also much cheaper in the US than europe...

    Comparing the Panamera vs the Cayenne however is a valid argument.


    Re: New Cayenne - first impressions from Geneva (Wonderbar)

    SciFrog:

    I don't buy in the argument that Porsche is overpriced. It places itself in the luxury segment with a premium, and the new interior show for it. YOU might not see the value, but some other will, and with the higher margins, Porsche doesn't need to sell as many cars.

    If you think Porsche is overpriced, what of Lambo Ferraris Maserati AM? Value is a very relative and personal argument. There is always something that will price you out.


    Very well said. Smiley
     


    --

    The secret of life is to admire without desiring.


    Re: New Cayenne - first impressions from Geneva (Wonderbar)

     

    seems the whole Porsche range is a rip-off except the 911 of course
     

    below is an illustration for a Panamera 4s (used) for sale at £81,999....ouch

     

    Finance Example
    Product: PCP 
    Monthly payment: £1,398.35
    Total cash price: £81,999
    Deposit: £16,390.00
    Term: 37 Months
    Annual mileage: 10,000 m
    Final payment: £
    Guaranteed future value: £30,223
    APR: 10.5 %
    Total amount payable: £97,029

     

    just see how much you lose after 3yrs of ownership ! residuals on this car are definitely going to be really bad. Smiley


    Thats really ridiculous money for what is essentially a rental car. Even worse so if you are paying for  it with after tax money.

    On high end leased cars, once you work out the actual total cost per hour of driving,  you have to question the financial sanity of it all... or regard their marketing departments as centers of genius!


    Re: New Cayenne - first impressions from Geneva (Wonderbar)

    SciFrog:

    I don't buy in the argument that Porsche is overpriced. It places itself in the luxury segment with a premium, and the new interior show for it. YOU might not see the value, but some other will, and with the higher margins, Porsche doesn't need to sell as many cars.

    If you think Porsche is overpriced, what of Lambo Ferraris Maserati AM? Value is a very relative and personal argument. There is always something that will price you out.

    As for the US vs europe price, you need to remember this doesn't affect only Porsche, Mercedes and BWM and Audi to name a few are also much cheaper in the US than europe...

    Comparing the Panamera vs the Cayenne however is a valid argument.

     

    Compare the Ferrari, Lamborghini and even Maserati production figures and you may get the answer why in my opinion Porsche is overpriced.

    Porsche can't charge a premium for a mass production car. Even the 911 is a mass production car. Some variants like the GT3 RS may not be but this is where I would accept a premium, not only because the production figures are limited but also because this is a pretty unique product in it's market segment.

    Regarding the Cayenne & Panamera: I don't think that producing a Cayenne costs more than producing a Panamera. I also think that the next gen Cayenne development had a huge benefit from Panamera development. It is somehow sad that Porsche couldn't make PDK work with the Cayenne but I'm pretty sure that these issues will be solved with the next facelift or latest with the next generation. Maybe there is no point to introduce PDK if the automatic tranny works almost at the same speed (best example: X5/X6M where the press has high praises for the auto tranny, shifting speed being similar to DCT).

    Porsche needs to find it's identity: do they want to be a mass producer of luxury sportscars or the manufacturer of limited production exclusive cars. They can't build a Swatch and expect people to pay a Rolex price for it. This sounds extreme but this is the way I feel as a customer. Especially in Germany, Porsche has become the Volkswagen of the wealthy people, a 911 doesn't even attract too much attention anymore and the Cayenne is only attracting attention because of the negative press it had in the past.

    Porsche needs to find a way back to the roots, where they offer competitive and "affordable" (for the market segment they present) prices. 

    If they want to become a second BMW with much higher production figures, they also need to adapt the prices to the competition. 


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (on the ship), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW


    Re: New Cayenne - first impressions from Geneva (Wonderbar)

    The problem is, that if Porsche wants to be s second BMW, it is too early to adapt their prices now. It's not possible to expect a company with a little bit more than 100k units per year to compare itself with another with 1 million (ONE MILLION).

    On the other hand, different people use to pay premium for different things. Some prefer to pay for image alone (Ferrari, Maserati, etc.), second group prefer technology, performance, reliability and image (Porsche), third for technology and value for money (BMW), fourth; even better value for money (VW, RR), etc... You will always find something with better price, performance, technology or whatever reason to justify a "contract" for it. It is a matter of personal feelings and understandings.

    Me personally find no problem at all with Porsche prices, because I can't find anything better out there as a whole package - technology, performance, feeling behind the wheel, heritage, durability, motorsport history and charisma. In addition to that I find very useless to comment price policies of other companies, because most of us are "in the same boat" and everyone has own feelings about the price of his product.

    Just my feelings...


    Re: New Cayenne - first impressions from Geneva (Wonderbar)

    Would you really compare a Cayenne or even the Panamera to the "legend" 911 ? I wouldn't. What may be OK for their flagship product, the 911, may not be OK for other Porsche models.

    I know MANY MANY potential Porsche customers or current customers who are NOT willing to pay ANY price for a Porsche, especially not for a Cayenne or Panamera. This includes me


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (on the ship), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW


    Re: New Cayenne - first impressions from Geneva (Wonderbar)

    When you say Cayenne and Panamera only; me personally think that these two products are the benchmarks in their categories. As a whole package again... The first real Cayenne competitor for all these years is the X5 M from 2009.

    And something else - me personally is totally pissed off by the american accents in the build quality of mainly ML, GL and in some areas even BMW X-series. They aren't bad quality in any way, but are miles away from the quality of S-class, E-class, 7-series, 5-series etc. This is another justified reason for Porsche premium


    Re: New Cayenne - first impressions from Geneva (Wonderbar)

     How much one is prepared to pay for intangibles is the great marketing question.  It depends on many aspects of course, and is a trade-off for the car manufacturer between volume and profit, where one always goes for the perceived sweet spot.

    Porsche clearly has changed marketing perspective, it has launched  the 997TTS at the same time as the TT knowing that most buyers would be tempted rather than see this a an end of cycle niche product, the Panamera prices £15-20.000 above what I would expect, and the Cayenne is now in the same price premium sphere.

    The reality is that this game used to be played by the big Euro players before the Japanese came and offered all these expensive options in the price (who EVER heard of having to pay for carpets on a luxury car).  There is no one targeting Porsche really, but then again no one expected Lexus to be where it has reached in the USA either.

    My money is that the WAG group is becoming so crowded that they are starting to differentiate themselves internally more than within their new market niche:

    1- SUV: Touareg is very expensive but at least does not have the range of options and engines that push the prices even higher like Porsche.  Porsche is now at RR levels rather than RRS which is cheaper and a more direct competitor, let alone X5, ML and Q7.  Once RR updates that shape they could have serious problems as their interior is now very good, same for the ML if MB makes the effort.

    2- Panamera: it would be better if (a) the beetle shape was more exotic on the bulbuous back and (b) you could get a 5 seater, but with a stated aim of 20.000 cars failure should not cost much.  Still no one seems to be raving about it.  By the way the financing rate assumes a balloon of £30k, whereas a GT3 would have over £50k.

    There is 1 major aspect though that might tip the balance, by gunning so high they might try and stop the catastrophic depreciation curve of both cars: by having a different class of 1st buyer and boosting their perceived image through a "more difficult to attain" purchase, it could do the trick.  I would not bet on it for the Cayenne, and the leasing offers on the Panamera speak for themselves.  Having said that Porsche in the UK apparently hoovered the Cayennes during the down cycle last year in order to maintain prices, it could certainly do the same on the Panameras.


    Re: New Cayenne - first impressions from Geneva (Wonderbar)

    RC:

     

    I know MANY MANY potential Porsche customers or current customers who are NOT willing to pay ANY price for a Porsche, especially not for a Cayenne or Panamera. This includes me

     

    I'm in - I only pay premium for the 911 emotions, not for the Panamera or Cayenne!


    Re: New Cayenne - first impressions from Geneva (Wonderbar)

    RC, I agree that the 911 is a legend, having enjoyed and owned many of them.  But I have to say that I am more and more disappointed by the current exterior design.  The new 997.2TT is one fast rocket, but to me the exterior design (basically since 2004) needs more than just an "evolutionary" tweak.  I think Porsche should take a real design risk--keeping the iconic shape somehow--but showing us something to stir excitement visually.  If the new design is disappointing, I will be quite conflicted but would probably choose a Panamera over the 911 design.  Smiley


    Re: New Cayenne - first impressions from Geneva (Wonderbar)

     I agree that the 911 design needs to be brought forward. This "lets redesign the lights" nonsense needs to stop.


    Re: New Cayenne - first impressions from Geneva (Wonderbar)

    20,000 Panamera is mass production?

    50,000 Cayennes?

    These are small numbers...

    Porsche is a Luxury brand with premium prices. The premium they charge might have value to you, or not, but that is a PERSONAL choice. There is always something with better price/performance.


    Re: New Cayenne - first impressions from Geneva (Wonderbar)

    I just sat in the new Touareg and in the new Cayenne today at the Geneva show.

    . The feel is totally different...miles away. The Touareg is nice, functional, ok...but nothing more. In the Cayenne it feels luxurious, sports, special, different, exiting !!!! And I war realy trying to convince myself that the Touareg is ok....but it not near of the feel of the Cayenne. I would probably end up paying the premium, if I had to choose now....
    --
     

     997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm


    Re: New Cayenne - first impressions from Geneva (Wonderbar)

    Gnil:

    I just sat in the new Touareg and in the new Cayenne today at the Geneva show.

    . The feel is totally different...miles away. The Touareg is nice, functional, ok...but nothing more. In the Cayenne it feels luxurious, sports, special, different, exiting !!!! And I war realy trying to convince myself that the Touareg is ok....but it not near of the feel of the Cayenne. I would probably end up paying the premium, if I had to choose now....

     

     I had the same feeling and could not say it better

    CarlosSmiley


    --
    T4S & co gallery

    Re: New Cayenne - first impressions from Geneva (Wonderbar)

    SciFrog:

    20,000 Panamera is mass production?

    50,000 Cayennes?

    These are small numbers...

    Porsche is a Luxury brand with premium prices. The premium they charge might have value to you, or not, but that is a PERSONAL choice. There is always something with better price/performance.

     Yes, well said

    Carlos Smiley


    --
    T4S & co gallery

    Re: New Cayenne - first impressions from Geneva (Wonderbar)

    What do you guys predict for first year 991 production numbers? Maybe back up to or more than 2009 997 production?  MY10 was cut way back after Porsche built too many 09 cars, they even gave 10K cash back to help sell the 2009 cars here in the US, I'm sure they don't want that to happen again. The economy still isn't great but will Porsche gamble that demand for the new model will be high and ramp up production?


    Re: New Cayenne - first impressions from Geneva (Wonderbar)

    Looks that lately Porsche prefers higher prices and less production...


    Re: New Cayenne - first impressions from Geneva (Wonderbar)

    This discussion also proves to me that different markets have different expectations regarding looks, feel, design AND price tag. Interesting but this ain't going to make Porsche's life (survival) any easier I'm afraid.

    I actually love the design of the 997, in my opinion this is the most beautiful 911 ever.

    Americans seem to prefer a more revolutionary than evolutionary design, this is maybe the reason why brands like Lexus or Infinity never really had success in Europe.

    It won't be easy for Porsche to satisfy all markets and although the US market is very important to them, the German market is on second place and they can't ignore it.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (on the ship), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW


    Re: New Cayenne - first impressions from Geneva (Wonderbar)

    Actually, I think that the problem could lie in the interpretation of "evolutionary".

    To me, (and I'm not American) "evolutionary " signifies movement within a given framework. The rate of evolution is not specific, but I would like it to be adequate enough to keep abreast of the times.

    The problem I see with the 997 (and I too love the design) is that it is now beginning to look dated.

    As you all know, I am a ardent sportscar motoracing fan, and even in those circles, the 997 RSR is beginning to look "antiquated".

    I do not want "revolution" when it comes to the 911, but I certainly would like to see an end to the "lets redesign the rear lights and drill a few extra holes in the rear bumper and call it a face-lift" syndrome.


    Re: New Cayenne - first impressions from Geneva (Wonderbar)

    Congrats Cram - great decision


    Re: New Cayenne - first impressions from Geneva (Wonderbar)

    Spyderidol:

    As you all know, I am a ardent sportscar motoracing fan, and even in those circles, the 997 RSR is beginning to look "antiquated".

    I do not want "revolution" when it comes to the 911, but I certainly would like to see an end to the "lets redesign the rear lights and drill a few extra holes in the rear bumper and call it a face-lift" syndrome.

     

    I'm afraid too much "(r)evolution" could hurt 911 sales substantially. In Germany, the 911 lives from tradition and reputation. If Porsche decides to handle 911 (r)evolution like other manufacturers do with their sportscars, it could hurt the whole brand and not only 911 sales.

    Especially in motorsports, looks are deceiving and actually not important, so I can't really accept this argument. We have many 964RS racing over here in Germany and they are very impressive motorsports tools. Never liked how the 964RS is looking though.

    Porsche also needs to differentiate the Carrera models from the GT models and even the Turbo.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (on the ship), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW


     
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