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    Re: OFFICIAL: New 991.2 Turbo and Turbo S

    488 is boost by gear.


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 991.2 Turbo and Turbo S

    Im not following.


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 991.2 Turbo and Turbo S

    I am also pretty sure that the tested 570S had way over 600 hp but I just hope that customers get the same power, this is all I am worried about. If so, everything is well. Smiley

    Regarding that Huracan with over 660 horses: This must have been an anomaly. I talked to a guy I know who owns a dyno testing facility in Böblingen near Stuttgart and he has tested a couple of Huracan and even some new Audi R8 and most cars had slightly above 600 hp, not one achieved the claimed 610 hp.


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    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 991.2 Turbo and Turbo S

    I think it's always difficult to interpret crank horsepower based on a chassis dyno.  People come up with estimates like 20% power loss for AWD vehicle, but the actual mathematics are very complicated (no % will ever be accurate for more than one power level).  The only way to properly measure these things (unless just comparing relative differences) is with an engine dyno (engine removed from vehicle).


    --

    16 Cayman GT4, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 991.2 Turbo and Turbo S

    Grant:

    I think it's always difficult to interpret crank horsepower based on a chassis dyno.  People come up with estimates like 20% power loss for AWD vehicle, but the actual mathematics are very complicated (no % will ever be accurate for more than one power level).  The only way to properly measure these things (unless just comparing relative differences) is with an engine dyno (engine removed from vehicle).

    True but you can get close to the real power with the proper calculations and a "good" dyno (the personell handling it also needs to be experienced). 2-3% error are not a problem, at least you can judge by the test values if a car has too much or not enough power. Accuracy? You're right, nothing beats an engine dyno.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 991.2 Turbo and Turbo S

    If the huracan makes about 600-610hp, then why is it 2secs slower to 300ph than the 488, even though it has about 60hp more?  And in some cases neck and neck to about 150?


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 991.2 Turbo and Turbo S

    kingjr9000:

    If the huracan makes about 600-610hp, then why is it 2secs slower to 300ph than the 488, even though it has about 60hp more?  And in some cases neck and neck to about 150?

    No clue. My R8 isn't different. Maybe the 488 doesn't have 60 hp more? Smiley Smiley

    The current V10 engine produces 610-620 hp at max if the engine is in a very good shape. Average power is usually around 600 hp or even slightly less. I met a guy who does a lot of R8 mods and tuning, the current V10 engine (R8 V10 and Huracan) is at it's power end, more than 620 hp are very unlikely and ABT is currently working on a tuning kit for the R8 V10 Plus and they have a hard time getting more than 640 hp out of the engine without major mods according to this guy. One reason why this tuning kit isn't ready yet. ABT is very close to Audi and has insight to developing data.

    So the stock cars clearly have around 600 hp, give or take but certainly not more than 620 hp. At best.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 991.2 Turbo and Turbo S

    Thanks, good to know then.  I honestly can't wait to see how much power the SL huracan puts out, and how they got that much out of it.


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 991.2 Turbo and Turbo S

    kingjr9000:

    If the huracan makes about 600-610hp, then why is it 2secs slower to 300ph than the 488, even though it has about 60hp more?  And in some cases neck and neck to about 150?

     

    The 488 doesn't actually have 660HP in each of the 7 gears.

    The Ferrari ECU artificially limits the maximum torque output and torque peak in each gear by adjusting the boost pressure an fuel flow, giving it more torque and higher torque peak for each higher gear, until the max output of 560lb-ft is unleashed in 7th gear. 

    Since HP is a function of torque, the 488 only have 660HP in 7th gear. It has less in the first 6 gears.

     


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    Re: OFFICIAL: New 991.2 Turbo and Turbo S

    kingjr9000:

    Thanks, good to know then.  I honestly can't wait to see how much power the SL huracan puts out, and how they got that much out of it.

    Audi/Lamborghini could increase engine capacity and thus raise power as well but I do not know to what extent it is technically possible. I rather think that at some point, Audi/Lamborghini will need to switch to alternative engines with lower capacity and maybe even turbo charged (V6 or V8).

    Another possibility would be that the R8 and the Huracan wouldn't use the same engine anymore but if this happens, I think Audi would seriously loose R8 customers. The V10 engine is the best part of the car.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 991.2 Turbo and Turbo S

    Whoopsy:
    kingjr9000:

    If the huracan makes about 600-610hp, then why is it 2secs slower to 300ph than the 488, even though it has about 60hp more?  And in some cases neck and neck to about 150?

     

    The 488 doesn't actually have 660HP in each of the 7 gears.

    The Ferrari ECU artificially limits the maximum torque output and torque peak in each gear by adjusting the boost pressure an fuel flow, giving it more torque and higher torque peak for each higher gear, until the max output of 560lb-ft is unleashed in 7th gear. 

    Since HP is a function of torque, the 488 only have 660HP in 7th gear. It has less in the first 6 gears.

     

    This is very interesting information. I heard a rumor about this stuff but never really paid attention.

    This could explain why the 488 performance increases at higher speeds.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 991.2 Turbo and Turbo S

    kingjr9000:

    Im not following.

    Well, I mean that the amount of power you get in each gear is different. This is how they are creating the linearity in power. It's possible that a dyno pull in 3rd gear will not have the same power as 5th.


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 991.2 Turbo and Turbo S

    RC:
    Whoopsy:
    kingjr9000:

    If the huracan makes about 600-610hp, then why is it 2secs slower to 300ph than the 488, even though it has about 60hp more?  And in some cases neck and neck to about 150?

     

    The 488 doesn't actually have 660HP in each of the 7 gears.

    The Ferrari ECU artificially limits the maximum torque output and torque peak in each gear by adjusting the boost pressure an fuel flow, giving it more torque and higher torque peak for each higher gear, until the max output of 560lb-ft is unleashed in 7th gear. 

    Since HP is a function of torque, the 488 only have 660HP in 7th gear. It has less in the first 6 gears.

     

    This is very interesting information. I heard a rumor about this stuff but never really paid attention.

    This could explain why the 488 performance increases at higher speeds.

    The California T is also limited in the lower gears.

    I've seen a 488 video on youtube or something, where it showed the boost gauge while accelerating. If I remenber correctly, in first gear it started at about 1.2bar and it would increase by about 0.1 each gear. So, in 7th it had about 1.7bar.


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 991.2 Turbo and Turbo S

    I believe the 911 turbo does this as well. At least mine appears to be doing this although in the lower gears it is hard to get up to full boost because you are shifting so fast


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 991.2 Turbo and Turbo S

    Whoopsy:
     

     

    The 488 doesn't actually have 660HP in each of the 7 gears.

    The Ferrari ECU artificially limits the maximum torque output and torque peak in each gear by adjusting the boost pressure an fuel flow, giving it more torque and higher torque peak for each higher gear, until the max output of 560lb-ft is unleashed in 7th gear. 

    Since HP is a function of torque, the 488 only have 660HP in 7th gear. It has less in the first 6 gear

    Ferrari engrs said at both the 488 and the Cali T intros that the ECU limits the low to mid rpm torque in lower gears  to give these forced induction motors the more naturally aspirated feel that their tifosi desire , sacrificing some drag strip performance to avoid the barely off -idle locomotive tq feeling of Porsche's very diffent turbocharged boxer 6s, as it should be per each marque's brand identity 


    --

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    Re: OFFICIAL: New 991.2 Turbo and Turbo S

    I have never understood why it is interesting how much power an engine can produce at the crank, and why people are so involved in making % calculations. Isn't much more interesting and relevant how much power a car can deliver to the wheels yes

    At the same time this would eliminate the hole story about whether a car delivers or not. 


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 991.2 Turbo and Turbo S

    tso:

    I have never understood why it is interesting how much power an engine can produce at the crank, and why people are so involved in making % calculations. Isn't much more interesting and relevant how much power a car can deliver to the wheels yes

    At the same time this would eliminate the hole story about whether a car delivers or not. 

    Totally agree. Who cares in the end except what happens at the wheels...


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 991.2 Turbo and Turbo S

    tso:

    I have never understood why it is interesting how much power an engine can produce at the crank, and why people are so involved in making % calculations. Isn't much more interesting and relevant how much power a car can deliver to the wheels yes

    At the same time this would eliminate the hole story about whether a car delivers or not. 

     

    Some people wanted to correlate what they measured with what's published by the manufacturer.

    I never buy into the whole % loss thing. 

    Take the example of the 570S and the P1 for example. They uses basically the same engine and the exact same gearbox. Say those guys say a 15% loss, why would a P1 needs 110HP to drive it vs 85HP from the 570S?

     


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    Re: OFFICIAL: New 991.2 Turbo and Turbo S

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CiT9CC1x5lw

    1st and 2nd very close, dispite the tyre difference. kiss

     


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 991.2 Turbo and Turbo S

    kiss Nice!  Now then, youtube comments have lit up saying "yeah well, put the 911 on P0 corsas and see how fast the time would be," while they probably would have point if the porsche was on something other than MPSC2's (if it is on them since I think they normally have them on most tests), but I don't know if it is or isn't.  Did he say in the video or article they may have done?  But regardless of tires type, the size difference, the 4WS, 4WD, the perk of being a porsche, and a tight circuit, the macca did extremely well.  Kudos to you.


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 991.2 Turbo and Turbo S

    kingjr9000:

    kiss Nice!  Now then, youtube comments have lit up saying "yeah well, put the 911 on P0 corsas and see how fast the time would be," while they probably would have point if the porsche was on something other than MPSC2's (if it is on them since I think they normally have them on most tests), but I don't know if it is or isn't.  Did he say in the video or article they may have done?  But regardless of tires type, the size difference, the 4WS, 4WD, the perk of being a porsche, and a tight circuit, the macca did extremely well.  Kudos to you.

    At 0:40 you can read "PZero" on Porsche's tire.


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 991.2 Turbo and Turbo S

    Thanks!  I didnt see them earlier.  So whats the main difference between the two?


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 991.2 Turbo and Turbo S

    He said the Corsas have more grip. Probably different rubber and pattern.


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 991.2 Turbo and Turbo S

    Topspeed:

    He said the Corsas have more grip. Probably different rubber and pattern.

     

    Corsas do have more grip over the regular PZeros. The Corsas are in the same class of tires as the Cup2s.

    Don't listen to the propaganda of the P1 boys about the Corsas vs Cup2 debate. The Trofeo Rs are another class above the Cup2s and Corsas. That's straight from the Pirelli people. 

     


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    Re: OFFICIAL: New 991.2 Turbo and Turbo S

    Dynos are retarded and useless aside from measuring the delta between mods. If your pre-exhaust test is 100whp and your post-exhaust test is 110whp, just leave it at that and stop trying to guess the crank. An engine dyno in a professional setup is the only way to get accurate results.

    1. No one has any idea about what the drive train loss is. It's incredibly complex. You can just say 15% for RWD and 20% for AWD. You could be several percent off, up or down, in either of those.

    2. Test conditions need to be exactly the same. Different conditions could easily throw things off by a percent or two or more. It's not like dynos and their environments use NASA-level precision.

    3. All engines are different. It is not at all unlikely that some engines are a couple percent different due to many things at any given time in the life of the motor.

    If you drivetrain loss incorrectly by +/- 2%, get an engine that's +/- 2% in power, and your set up has +/- 2% variation, then you can be off considerably as far as car nerdery goes. When you get cars with 600-700hp, these percentage points add up and leads to people saying that a car is way underrated, when in fact it's not at all.

    These errors are compounded too when comparing two cars that end up with errors potentially leaning in opposite directions. Estimate driveline loss 2% too high for one car and 2% too low for another and you've now created an imaginary spread of 4%.


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 991.2 Turbo and Turbo S

    Corsas do have more grip than Pzeros, but the Porsche is more than compensated with RWS, AWD, and wider tires.

    At the end of the day, it comes with Corsas and they are totally usable in every day driving. They are not extreme at all.


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 991.2 Turbo and Turbo S

    If you want to, you could also say the 570s and 911 turbo s are faster than the 991 gt3rs and 650s on the same track, both tested by harris.  Soooo...


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 991.2 Turbo and Turbo S

    Whoopsy:
    tso:

    I have never understood why it is interesting how much power an engine can produce at the crank, and why people are so involved in making % calculations. Isn't much more interesting and relevant how much power a car can deliver to the wheels yes

    At the same time this would eliminate the hole story about whether a car delivers or not. 

     

    Some people wanted to correlate what they measured with what's published by the manufacturer.

    I never buy into the whole % loss thing. 

    Take the example of the 570S and the P1 for example. They uses basically the same engine and the exact same gearbox. Say those guys say a 15% loss, why would a P1 needs 110HP to drive it vs 85HP from the 570S?

    good example Smiley 


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 991.2 Turbo and Turbo S

    noone1:

    Corsas do have more grip than Pzeros, but the Porsche is more than compensated with RWS, AWD, and wider tires.

    At the end of the day, it comes with Corsas and they are totally usable in every day driving. They are not extreme at all.

    if that is the case they should have timed one lap WET for all cars and then add the two times together.....Smiley - it's a huge difference in wet....


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 991.2 Turbo and Turbo S

    The new PZero N1 used in the 991.2 Turbo S is a completely new PZero generation and according to many claims very close to the Michelin Cup 2 and even better than the "old" Corsa but with a much better wet performance. Pirelli has improved the PZero with the new generation (completely new compound) and the N1 is the first OEM tire used at a car manufacturer.

    Right now I am trying to get this improved PZero for my R8 (my car has the "old" one with R01 Audi rating, the new one has R02) but so far, it seems to be very difficult. Apparently it is only available on new R8 models starting with the European MY 2017 (June 2016).

    Regarding that tested 570S: Does someone really believe this car has 570 hp only? C'mon... I just hope that customers get the same hp figure in their 570S. yes

     


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


     
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