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    Re: This Month's evo: the 911 Turbo and a Carrera GT - face

    Quote:
    KresoF1 said:
    Regarding Lamborghini sales you are wrong... This is the best year since Audi takeover. Waiting time for Gallardo in Europe is around 5-6 months.
    Also I disagree with you regarding dialy use of Gallardo. It is better as daily all year car then F430 for sure. I am telling you that as F430 owner! You simply can not use F430 in winter...
    On the other hand SL55 AMG although very fast in straight line is simply not in the same class as F430, Gallardo or 997 Turbo. They are true sportscars and SL55 is NOT.
    I agree with your opinion most of the times but, not this time...



    If you say that it's better than the 430, I'm really intrigued! What interests me the most is the real-world performance, compared to the 997TT And the 430, at least in the straight line.

    Re: This Month's evo: the 911 Turbo and a Carrera GT - face

    Steering is much heavier in Gallardo then in F430. That is the difference. Also Lifting system in Gallardo is better for city parking. They are both excellent cars IMO.
    F430 feels lighter, specially in downtown driving but, it is a fake feeling. They are very different in feeling which is IMHO very good thing!
    Gallardo climate control and heating system is a lot better then one in F430, same for Navi... F430 seats are better then Gallardo's, specially Racing seats.
    Oh, I like both of them a lot!

    Re: This Month's evo: the 911 Turbo and a Carrera GT - face

    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Maverick, there's a review somewhere on Rennteam of the 996TT with X50 and X73 + Aerokit, made by RC. Maybe you should search there.




    Crash,

    Thanks, Crash. From my search, I found that RC said the X73 was similar to the GT3-mk2 or 997S -20 mm LSD suspension. In other words, it is too stiff for bumpy B-roads.

    Lamborghini seems to have chosen a suspension set-up for the '006 Gallardo which gives up a few seconds on the 'ring in return for better real-world handling/ride/confidence on back roads if we believe Evo/Autocar. With the optional ceramic brakes, the Gallardo may match or beat the 997TT PCCB in braking.

    Re: This Month's evo: the 911 Turbo and a Carrera GT - face

    Quote:
    MAVERICK said:
    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Maverick, there's a review somewhere on Rennteam of the 996TT with X50 and X73 + Aerokit, made by RC. Maybe you should search there.




    Crash,

    Thanks, Crash. From my search, I found that RC said the X73 was similar to the GT3-mk2 or 997S -20 mm LSD suspension. In other words, it is too stiff for bumpy B-roads.

    Lamborghini seems to have chosen a suspension set-up for the '006 Gallardo which gives up a few seconds on the 'ring in return for better real-world handling/ride/confidence on back roads if we believe Evo/Autocar. With the optional ceramic brakes, the Gallardo may match or beat the 997TT PCCB in braking.



    My bad on the suspension then. Regarding the Nring, it isn't much better than back roads. Whatever suspension setup works there should work very well for most normal roads, although AUM is the Ring guru here. You might want to PM him. One shot in the dark is enough for one day .

    Re: This Month's evo: the 911 Turbo and a Carrera GT - face

    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Regarding the Nring, it isn't much better than back roads. Whatever suspension setup works there should work very well for most normal roads,



    Which is why I would have thought PASM in comfort mode should have been outstanding on back roads and trounced the Gallardo. The only difference I can think of is that the 'ring, while bumpy, is better maintained than back roads so no broken pavement, potholes, etc.

    Was not the Gallardo was also developed at the 'ring?

    Re: This Month's evo: the 911 Turbo and a Carrera GT - face

    Quote:
    MAVERICK said:
    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Regarding the Nring, it isn't much better than back roads. Whatever suspension setup works there should work very well for most normal roads,



    Which is why I would have thought PASM in comfort mode should have been outstanding on back roads and trounced the Gallardo. The only difference I can think of is that the 'ring, while bumpy, is better maintained than back roads so no broken pavement, potholes, etc.

    Was not the Gallardo was also developed at the 'ring?



    Yes, it was. Which rings me to a question. Why is the -20 mm Carrera S faster on the Ring than the PASM CS? It would make no sense. And the Nurburgring is just like any other road, except for the potholes. It has varying asphalt grip, patched surfaces instead of nicely laid-out asphalt and is, above all, bumpy. Walther Röhrl said that the secret to the Ring is knowing the bumps.

    Re: This Month's evo: the 911 Turbo and a Carrera GT - face

    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Which rings me to a question. Why is the -20 mm Carrera S faster on the Ring than the PASM CS? It would make no sense. And the Nurburgring is just like any other road, except for the potholes. It has varying asphalt grip, patched surfaces instead of nicely laid-out asphalt and is, above all, bumpy. Walther Röhrl said that the secret to the Ring is knowing the bumps.



    From what I've read on Rennteam, the PASM 997S needs to be in comfort mode to achieve its best 'ring time. However the comfort mode is softer/slower than the -20 mm LSD 997S 'ring time.

    Therefore, on back roads, are we suggesting the -20 mm LSD 997S and hypothetical X73 LSD 997TT should be able to match the '006 Gallardo? Maybe. Maybe not.

    What if the cars are traveling on unfamiliar back roads where the bumps are unknown -- is this where the Gallardo's alleged advantage begins? Until Evo, Autocar, or a Rennteam member pits an X73 LSD 996TT or the hypothetical X73 LSD 997TT against the '006 Gallardo on back roads, we may not know.

    For now, according to the two magazines, the '006 Gallardo is better on back roads while the 997TT is better on the 'ring. In my book, Audi-Lamborghini deserves credit for not letting the 997TT dominate both venues.

    Re: This Month's evo: the 911 Turbo and a Carrera GT - face

    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Quote:
    MAVERICK said:
    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Regarding the Nring, it isn't much better than back roads. Whatever suspension setup works there should work very well for most normal roads,



    Which is why I would have thought PASM in comfort mode should have been outstanding on back roads and trounced the Gallardo. The only difference I can think of is that the 'ring, while bumpy, is better maintained than back roads so no broken pavement, potholes, etc.

    Was not the Gallardo was also developed at the 'ring?



    Yes, it was. Which rings me to a question. Why is the -20 mm Carrera S faster on the Ring than the PASM CS? It would make no sense. And the Nurburgring is just like any other road, except for the potholes. It has varying asphalt grip, patched surfaces instead of nicely laid-out asphalt and is, above all, bumpy. Walther Röhrl said that the secret to the Ring is knowing the bumps.



    The answer is simple; a well tuned mechanical suspension will almost always be better than an electronic one for dedicated sport use. Don't forget that the springs cannot b electronically adjusted for stiffness and thus P has to choose a compromise for spring rates and height to work in both sport and comfort modes.. That has been pointed out in various tests from experienced journalists. Until P brings out a X73 for the 997tt we won't know its true max performance.
    Also X73 for 996tt is a fantastic compromise between performance and reasonable side quality. Imo its much much better than stock but not for all types of roads!

    Re: This Month's evo: the 911 Turbo and a Carrera GT - face

    Interesting discussion.

    I own a sport chassis 997S (-20mm) and love it.
    Last weekend, I was having a ball on UK country roads in Sussex and although that car handles like a go kart, it is true than when I hit a big hole or bump at high speeds, the whole car shudders!
    Difficult to describe it, it's scary but it's also great! So rigid it's insane!
    One it does cause you to do though... is slow down.

    I have one question regarding the Lambo Gallardo.
    Isn't its suspension setup similar to Porsche PASM?
    I know where is a sport button in the Gallardo that acts on shifting times, but I'm pretty sure it also firms up the suspension but I could be wrong.
    In which case, according to the press, Lamborghini has achieved a very good compromise.

    I also know that a sport chassis is available for the Gallardo. This one is meant to be really too stiff for the open road.

    Don't get me wrong on the sport chassis for my 997, it is still amazing, and you really have to hit a big hole at say above 80 mph to feel the car lose its composure (at which speed, a PASM car in sport mode would probably behave the same too).

    Re: This Month's evo: the 911 Turbo and a Carrera GT - face

    Isn't the -20 mm actually softer than PASM sport mode?

    Re: This Month's evo: the 911 Turbo and a Carrera GT - face

    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Isn't the -20 mm actually softer than PASM sport mode?



    Don't know myself. Never driven a PASM 911. But I have read so yes.

    Re: This Month's evo: the 911 Turbo and a Carrera GT - face

    Quote:
    Fanch said:
    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Isn't the -20 mm actually softer than PASM sport mode?



    Don't know myself. Never driven a PASM 911. But I have read so yes.



    Why Porsche didn't yet offer this suspension for the Turbo is beyond me.

    Re: This Month's evo: the 911 Turbo and a Carrera GT - face

    Gallardo use conventional suspension. Sport mode changes e.gear speed, faster throttle response and ESP goes in Sport mode.
    Sport suspension for Gallardo is using stiffer springs(NO difference in hight!) and is usable on the normal road as well.

    Re: This Month's evo: the 911 Turbo and a Carrera GT - face

    Quote:
    KresoF1 said:
    Gallardo use conventional suspension. Sport mode changes e.gear speed, faster throttle response and ESP goes in Sport mode.
    Sport suspension for Gallardo is using stiffer springs(NO difference in hight!) and is usable on the normal road as well.



    Thanks Kreso.
    Interesting answer! So the Lambo runs on conventionnal springs and dampers. That's good.
    The things is though, electronically controlled dampers work too.
    I mean, the new GT3 received a lot of praise. I haven't driven it so I can't tell but the system seems to be excellent.
    Ferrari's skyhook on the F430 also works well according to press and costumers. Needless to say the new damper system on the 599.

    And what about Nigel Mansell's Renault F1 back in the early 90s. First F1 to introduce the technology. The car was so far ahead of the lot the FIA had to rewrite the rules to level Renault down (going OT here, but it's happening again this season with their Mass Damper device by the way....).

    Anyway, my main point is that, clearly, electonically controlled suspensions work, they keep getting refined, i.e. the system is more advanced on the new Turbo/GT3 than the Carrera S and maybe all it needs is fine tuning

    About the Gallardo's sport suspension, this is great. Means you can take it to the track, but then, why not make a 2WD version!!!

    Re: This Month's evo: the 911 Turbo and a Carrera GT - face

    Fanch, you really need to test drive MY2006 Gallardo!
    It is IMO the best car currently on the market in drive dynamics...

    Re: This Month's evo: the 911 Turbo and a Carrera GT - face

    Quote:
    Fanch said:
    it is true than when I hit a big hole or bump at high speeds, the whole car shudders!
    Difficult to describe it, it's scary but it's also great! So rigid it's insane!
    One it does cause you to do though... is slow down.




    Fanch,

    When the whole car shudders, does it also lose tyre grip?

    I am trying to understand if it is necessary for the driver to slow down due to the shudder or due to loss in grip or both. If the car is not losing grip, the driver may be able to ignore the shuddering and keep the pressure on the Gallardo ahead.

    If grip is being lost, then the Porsche suspension engineers may need to offer an optional suspension package tailored for UK country roads for those drivers who spend more time on back roads than on the track. Otherwise, it will be rather annoying that not a single Porsche can keep up or beat the Gallardo leaving the Evo, STi, and maybe the Veyron to possibly be the only cars capable of giving the Gallardo some decent competition.

    Re: This Month's evo: the 911 Turbo and a Carrera GT - face

    Quote:
    MAVERICK said:
    Quote:
    Fanch said:
    it is true than when I hit a big hole or bump at high speeds, the whole car shudders!
    Difficult to describe it, it's scary but it's also great! So rigid it's insane!
    One it does cause you to do though... is slow down.




    Fanch,

    When the whole car shudders, does it also lose tyre grip?

    I am trying to understand if it is necessary for the driver to slow down due to the shudder or due to loss in grip or both. If the car is not losing grip, the driver may be able to ignore the shuddering and keep the pressure on the Gallardo ahead.




    No, I didn't lose grip, othersiwe PSM would have entered in action, and it didn't. I was also in sport mode.
    It's just that feeling of the hole or road imperfection is sent so violently accross the chassis that, instinctevely, you lift off your right foot. It's a reflex.
    You could carry on full blast I am sure. I need more practice... and balls! (UK country roads are rather narrow!)

    Re: This Month's evo: the 911 Turbo and a Carrera GT - face

    Quote:
    Fanch said:
    I need more practice... and balls! (UK country roads are rather narrow!)



    Don't we all?

    The way I see it is the 997TT PASM in comfort mode is probably not losing any grip either. After all Autocar did say the body movement was greater but always perfectly controlled. I forget what Evo said exactly besides the "pulling pants down" comment.

    Bottom line seems to state the '006 Gallardo on these roads feels and sounds excellent, confidence inspiring and easy to drive fast. An excellent German-Italian product with the right amount of engineering and passion?

    In order to get the same job done, the 997TT requires practice and balls. The TT is more of a challenge to drive fast and sounds less exciting giving the driver an unconventional experience of getting from point A to B. An excellent German product with the right amount of engineering?

    Does the TT require a naturally aspirated engine or a couple of blowoff valves to level the playing field or are owners and enthusiasts more than satisfied with the product?

    Re: This Month's evo: the 911 Turbo and a Carrera GT - face

    Quote:
    MAVERICK said:
    Quote:
    Fanch said:
    I need more practice... and balls! (UK country roads are rather narrow!)



    Don't we all?

    The way I see it is the 997TT PASM in comfort mode is probably not losing any grip either. After all Autocar did say the body movement was greater but always perfectly controlled. I forget what Evo said exactly besides the "pulling pants down" comment.

    Bottom line seems to state the '006 Gallardo on these roads feels and sounds excellent, confidence inspiring and easy to drive fast. An excellent German-Italian product with the right amount of engineering and passion?

    In order to get the same job done, the 997TT requires practice and balls. The TT is more of a challenge to drive fast and sounds less exciting giving the driver an unconventional experience of getting from point A to B. An excellent German product with the right amount of engineering?

    Does the TT require a naturally aspirated engine or a couple of blowoff valves to level the playing field or are owners and enthusiasts more than satisfied with the product?



    Porsche could've made the car sound much better, just look at the 996 Turbos rolling around with sport exhausts. What they need to do is offer a -20 mm suspension for the car, which will in all likelyhood transform it.

    Re: This Month's evo: the 911 Turbo and a Carrera GT - face

    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Porsche could've made the car sound much better, just look at the 996 Turbos rolling around with sport exhausts.



    Do any of those 996TT's with aftermarket exhausts sound like this:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vImmsLGrZzA&mode=related&search=

    Re: This Month's evo: the 911 Turbo and a Carrera GT - face

    Quote:
    MAVERICK said:
    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Porsche could've made the car sound much better, just look at the 996 Turbos rolling around with sport exhausts.



    Do any of those 996TT's with aftermarket exhausts sound like this:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vImmsLGrZzA&mode=related&search=



    You can. Just sit in it and get your friend to rev the Gallardo next to you.
    Turbo engines can never sound as nice, but that wouldn't be appropriate, really. They're torque monsters, not high-revving N/A engines. Depends on what you want.

    Re: This Month's evo: the 911 Turbo and a Carrera GT - face off

    The whole article is now available at evo.co.uk:

    http://www.evo.co.uk/cargrouptests/cargr...shi_evo_ix.html

    Re: This Month's evo: the 911 Turbo and a Carrera GT - face

    Quote:
    Fanch said:
    Quote:
    KresoF1 said:
    Gallardo use conventional suspension. Sport mode changes e.gear speed, faster throttle response and ESP goes in Sport mode.
    Sport suspension for Gallardo is using stiffer springs(NO difference in hight!) and is usable on the normal road as well.



    Thanks Kreso.
    Interesting answer! So the Lambo runs on conventionnal springs and dampers. That's good.
    The things is though, electronically controlled dampers work too.
    I mean, the new GT3 received a lot of praise. I haven't driven it so I can't tell but the system seems to be excellent.
    Ferrari's skyhook on the F430 also works well according to press and costumers. Needless to say the new damper system on the 599.

    And what about Nigel Mansell's Renault F1 back in the early 90s. First F1 to introduce the technology. The car was so far ahead of the lot the FIA had to rewrite the rules to level Renault down (going OT here, but it's happening again this season with their Mass Damper device by the way....).

    Anyway, my main point is that, clearly, electonically controlled suspensions work, they keep getting refined, i.e. the system is more advanced on the new Turbo/GT3 than the Carrera S and maybe all it needs is fine tuning

    About the Gallardo's sport suspension, this is great. Means you can take it to the track, but then, why not make a 2WD version!!!



    True, electronic suspensions in theory can work too but they will always present a compromise when you want to maintain a compromise between ride height, comfort, roll and dynamic responsiveness.The GT3 has much less compromise as a pure sports car (lower ride height) and thus probably achieves a better result for what its built for. Now as far as the 997tt is concerned its a different story since P wanted to offer a car for a wider audience. Ground clearance was an issue and thus something had to give. From what I hear the PSAM is a step ahead but still far from perfect and surely not as good as a X73 package can be (when and if it comes out).
    Again, the conventional sports suspension is better but NOT in all roads. I experimented a lot with normal, X73 and PSS9 suspensions in roads which were far from perfect and with average or poor traction. It's interesting to see the compromises when one switches to a stiffer suspension. You gain in maneuvrability\response, less roll,less nosedive under braking but only in better than average traction roads. When you move to below average roads, the traction is actually worse, both under acceleration, braking and curve entry. In those conditions the only advantage of X73 would be the fact that an experienced driver would have the chance to better control a car that slides around since there's less unpredictable suspension travel in every change of direction. Clearly P wants to offer a package that can satisfy most of the fans but is also safe for more mainstream drivers.
    It seems that an active suspension can do that to certain extend (but nor perfect so far).

     
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