Crown

Board: Other Sports Cars Language: English Region: Worldwide Share/Save/Bookmark Close

Forum - Thread


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    fritz:
    reginos:
    fritz:
    reginos:

    My two TDI  Audis are officially on the  list   "Winterkorn's List" smiley

    Apparently dealers have no clue as to if, when and how these engines will be rectified, if at all.

    I shall be delivering a legal letter to them for good measure.

    I sold a 2.0l TDI VW just two months ago and replaced it with a turbo petrol engined car from outside the VW Group, so I guess I'm lucky to avoid the hassle. 
    Had the hassle of having to reject the first new car as a lemon and wait for a replacement from the factory instead.  Smiley

    I am sure you had some inside information SmileySmiley

    No, just an old car whose next generation was taking longer to be introduced than I was prepared to wait.  Smiley

    I do have some (vague) information here though which is "hot off the presses":

    "WOLFSBURG (dpa-AFX) - Nach dem Abgas-Skandal beiVolkswagen werden Techniker bei einigen Autos auch direkt an den Motoren Hand anlegen müssen. Teilweise werde eine Überarbeitung der Software zwar ausreichen, sagte der neue VW-Chef Matthias Müller am Dienstag laut Mitteilung. "Bei einem Teil der Fahrzeuge werden dagegen auch zusätzliche Eingriffe an der Hardware notwendig sein." Der Konzern hatte mit einer Software Abgaswerte von Diesel-Autos in den USA manipuliert. Weltweit sind 11 Millionen Autos betroffen - 2,8 Millionen davon in Deutschland./fri/fbr"

    VW has just announced that fixing some of the cars will just involve uploading new software to the cars' ECUs, whereas where other cars are concerned it will additionally be necessary to make hardware changes to the engines. 

    That simple? Wishful thinking, perhaps?

    If it had been so easy why did they cheat in the first place or why they didn't rectify at a later stage?


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    bridggar:

    I'm really curious as to how they'd calculate the cost of use of the vehicle as I suspect I am going to have to go down this route with Porsche for my problem child 991. 

    I don't have the professional background or relevant personal experience to help with that question. Considering what you have told us here about your issue you'd probably be well-advised to contact a lawyer specialising in consumer protection matters. 
    Not trying to introduced semantics into this, but by my understanding its not an issue of "cost of use" but of a "provision for benefit" accrued to you during your ownership, and in your position I'd be inclined to argue a case for the "benefit" having been seriously impaired due to the dealer(s) inability to fix the problem despite your complaints over an extended period. 


    --

    fritz


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    reginos:
    fritz:
    reginos:
    fritz:
    reginos:

    My two TDI  Audis are officially on the  list   "Winterkorn's List" smiley

    Apparently dealers have no clue as to if, when and how these engines will be rectified, if at all.

    I shall be delivering a legal letter to them for good measure.

    I sold a 2.0l TDI VW just two months ago and replaced it with a turbo petrol engined car from outside the VW Group, so I guess I'm lucky to avoid the hassle. 
    Had the hassle of having to reject the first new car as a lemon and wait for a replacement from the factory instead.  Smiley

    I am sure you had some inside information SmileySmiley

    No, just an old car whose next generation was taking longer to be introduced than I was prepared to wait.  Smiley

    I do have some (vague) information here though which is "hot off the presses":

    "WOLFSBURG (dpa-AFX) - Nach dem Abgas-Skandal beiVolkswagen werden Techniker bei einigen Autos auch direkt an den Motoren Hand anlegen müssen. Teilweise werde eine Überarbeitung der Software zwar ausreichen, sagte der neue VW-Chef Matthias Müller am Dienstag laut Mitteilung. "Bei einem Teil der Fahrzeuge werden dagegen auch zusätzliche Eingriffe an der Hardware notwendig sein." Der Konzern hatte mit einer Software Abgaswerte von Diesel-Autos in den USA manipuliert. Weltweit sind 11 Millionen Autos betroffen - 2,8 Millionen davon in Deutschland./fri/fbr"

    VW has just announced that fixing some of the cars will just involve uploading new software to the cars' ECUs, whereas where other cars are concerned it will additionally be necessary to make hardware changes to the engines. 

    That simple? Wishful thinking, perhaps?

    If it had been so easy why did they cheat in the first place or why they didn't rectify at a later stage?

    I very much doubt that VW's top management level would be so reckless as to engage in wishful thinking in this current situation. 
    They've taken this time to investigate and surely to test the measures needed to achieve compliance, and this statement is the initial (non-detailed) outcome of that investigation.

    The cheating was a means of cutting corners. Some corners will have been cut less than others?   Smiley

    Introducing rectification measures at a later date would surely have meant getting a budget agreed for the development and application work involved, and maybe also submitting cars with the rectified software for new official certification tests (if software version numbers and data volumes were identifiably different).
    Applying for additional budgets and re-testing already "approved" cars would surely have raised many "awkward" questions inside and outside the company?   Smiley 


    --

    fritz


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    Thank you for sharing your insight kiss

     


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    reginos:

    Thank you for sharing your insight kiss

     

    Purely speculation on my part, not insight. Smiley


    --

    fritz


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    fritz:
    reginos:

    Thank you for sharing your insight kiss

     

    Purely speculation on my part, not insight. Smiley

    It makes sense what you speculate about their reluctance to fix the issue subsequently.


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    reginos:
    fritz:
    reginos:

    Thank you for sharing your insight kiss

     

    Purely speculation on my part, not insight. Smiley

    It makes sense what you speculate about their reluctance to fix the issue subsequently.

    I do have an occasional lucid moment.  Smiley


    --

    fritz


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    I caught you in your window of clarity for the month smiley


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    All my  VW Transporter 2.0 l diesel engines are fine . They do not have the ' bug' . I guess with 112HP they didn't need to .

    It will save me quite some hassle .


    --

     997.2 C2 ,  -20mm  I 964 Carrera 4 I 991 GT3 RS 


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    fritz:
    bridggar:

    I'm really curious as to how they'd calculate the cost of use of the vehicle as I suspect I am going to have to go down this route with Porsche for my problem child 991. 

    I don't have the professional background or relevant personal experience to help with that question. Considering what you have told us here about your issue you'd probably be well-advised to contact a lawyer specialising in consumer protection matters. 
    Not trying to introduced semantics into this, but by my understanding its not an issue of "cost of use" but of a "provision for benefit" accrued to you during your ownership, and in your position I'd be inclined to argue a case for the "benefit" having been seriously impaired due to the dealer(s) inability to fix the problem despite your complaints over an extended period. 

    Thanks Fritz - We don't have the "Lemon Law" in the UK, but we do have the 1979 Sale of Goods Act (recently replaced by the Consumer Rights Act) which offers some rudimentary protection from poor quality. I may (sadly) have to engage professional help in the near future as I feel I'm still not really making any progress - but I'm guessing their focus is elsewhere right now (not that it should affect me!)

    Interestingly I watched the Nick Murray youtube posts again today and he had the exact same problem (albeit attributed initially to the sunroof). Odd since Porsche continue to claim they've never seen this issue before...


    --

    991 Carrera Black\Black, XC90 Black\Black, 120 Cab Black\Coral Red - 2 kids, 1 dog


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    reginos:
     

    On the subject of causes of death in the USA, I noticed that over 750.000 deaths are attributed to heart disease and stroke which I would think are linked to the nation's  legendary obesity problems and junk food eating habits. So the Health department  better ban McDonalds and similar before making a huge issue out of VW. In the grand scheme of things emissions from a handful of VW diesels seems like a  speck in the ocean of polluted air people breath.

    If VW broke some rules they should pay the penalty. But exploding the VW affair out of proportion is nonsensical, hypocritical and with ulterior motives.

     

    due to improved passive safety features of modern cars, gun deaths here in the US  have now pulled even and will surpass auto accident deaths by next year both are now at about 25,000 per year ...Bang Bang Bang !

     

    the simple issue for VW here in the US market is that the buyers for the Audi and VW TDIs are mostly the aging baby boomer self proclaimed cooler/ hipper faction of our " green intelligentsia " who thought they were more technically advanced  vehicles ( and certainly more fun ) than the know nothing sheep driving Prius type golf carts 

    many are probably the same guys my age who were driving the slow as molasses black smoke spewing VW Rabbit diesels in the late 1970s , which at the time was also a " green " statement , more for the MPG, certatinly not for lung destroying  NOx emssions  ! I preferred and had three VW Sciroccos  from 1979 -1984 . 

    remember, these cars are more expensive than their gas versions AND diesel is more expensive than gas here in the US ..so many TDI buyers were making  an environmental and " car guy " statement with their purchases ...now they feel BETRAYED that they were led  as blind sheep themselves to meet VW US sales demands to reach the 2018 or before world sales domination goal set in 2008 


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    reginos:
     

    That simple? Wishful thinking, perhaps?

    If it had been so easy why did they cheat in the first place or why they didn't rectify at a later stage?

     

    It would seems some of the 2.0L versions have urea systems, so a patch to increase the urea consumption is all that's needed to make the car comply. Down side is owner will have to fill that tank more often.

    But the 1.6L does't have the urea system and hence the headache.


    --

     

     


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    I'll bet a lot of posters here would have ferociously fought mandatory seat belts in cars.mail

    It is my understanding that VW will go on a severe cost cutting program which will impact many employees in order to address the financial tsunami they will be facing. I hope those that post on RT will be safe.surprise


    --

     

    Of little, to make much: That is the dream of a human life.

     


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    nberry:

    It is my understanding that VW will go on a severe cost cutting program which will impact many employees in order to address the financial tsunami they will be facing. I hope those that post on RT will be safe.surprise


    --

     

    Of little, to make much: That is the dream of a human life.

     

    We do have employees on the forum , ( at lest one ) that works for VW .


    --

     997.2 C2 ,  -20mm  I 964 Carrera 4 I 991 GT3 RS 


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    nberry:

    I'll bet a lot of posters here would have ferociously fought mandatory seat belts in cars.mail

    It is my understanding that VW will go on a severe cost cutting program which will impact many employees in order to address the financial tsunami they will be facing. I hope those that post on RT will be safe.surprise


    --

     

    Of little, to make much: That is the dream of a human life.

     

     

    Only the Americans seems to have a problem with seat belt laws. 

    If it were up to me, I would mandatory 6 point harness!


    --

     

     


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    Helmet too, like an F1 driver


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    reginos:
    dreamcar:
    reginos:
    noone1:

    Why not just keep it un-fixed and accept that you're polluting?

    I wouldn't mind that at all, believe me. Actually, I would prefer that because with the whatever fix I expect engine performance to be lower. But the fix will be compulsory as I understand it.


    --

     

    "Form follows function"

     

    So if the "fix" is compulsory and we (I have the 150bhp TDI engine in my Octavia DD) results in lower performance and / or worse economy what would you believe to be fair and reasonable compensation for ending up with a wore car than you originally purchased? Smiley

    At least a free of charge EU6 exchange engine which is supposed to be legal.


    --

     

    "Form follows function"

     

    VW Group have now provided a link where it is possible to check by entering your car's VIN to see if it is fitted with an engine that has the "cheat" software. Just checked my Skoda and thankfully it is in the clear, as all the Mk. 3 Octavias like mine have the later EA 288 engine, not the EA 189 which is  the guilty version of the 2.0 TDI engine Smiley


    --

     

    Porsche Boxster GTS Carrara white / Skoda Octavia Mk.3 daily drive

     


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    dreamcar:
    reginos:
    dreamcar:
    reginos:
    noone1:

    Why not just keep it un-fixed and accept that you're polluting?

    I wouldn't mind that at all, believe me. Actually, I would prefer that because with the whatever fix I expect engine performance to be lower. But the fix will be compulsory as I understand it.


    --

     

    "Form follows function"

     

    So if the "fix" is compulsory and we (I have the 150bhp TDI engine in my Octavia DD) results in lower performance and / or worse economy what would you believe to be fair and reasonable compensation for ending up with a wore car than you originally purchased? Smiley

    At least a free of charge EU6 exchange engine which is supposed to be legal.


    --

     

    "Form follows function"

     

    VW Group have now provided a link where it is possible to check by entering your car's VIN to see if it is fitted with an engine that has the "cheat" software. Just checked my Skoda and thankfully it is in the clear, as all the Mk. 3 Octavias like mine have the later EA 288 engine, not the EA 189 which is  the guilty version of the 2.0 TDI engine Smiley

    Damn! That means you can't get Nick to sue VW for hefty damages on your behalf.  Smiley

    The German version of the web-site went online yesterday. That's how I confirmed that the car I had recently sold will be involved in the recall. 
    --

     

    fritz

     


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    Whoopsy:

    If it were up to me, I would mandatory 6 point harness!

    without a FULL roll cage, you are in far greater danger of a broken neck in a roll over with 6 pt harness in road car since the std three point belts allow for sideways movement in roll overs for obvious reason..and that is why GM now has some vehicles that have an extra airbag that deploys BETWEEN the front passengers from the center console since they frequently blow up each others heads in roll overs or certain side impacts 

    also, a 6 pt belt works properly when cinched tight enough so that you cant lean forward to reach the center stack controls 


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    palenimbus:

    Helmet too, like an F1 driver

    like wearing stereo ear buds / headphones, helmets are illegal inside an enclosed car for obvious reasons ...cue police car siren approaching intersection 


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    Gnil:
    nberry:

    It is my understanding that VW will go on a severe cost cutting program which will impact many employees in order to address the financial tsunami they will be facing. I hope those that post on RT will be safe.surprise

     

     

    We do have employees on the forum , ( at lest one ) that works for VW .

    Matthias Muller told VWAG employees today : 

    " All investments ....not deemed absolutely necessary will be ABANDONED or delayed "  and future investments in plant, technology and vehicles would be put " under scrutiny " 


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    Maybe Porsche will be compelled to lower their new prices to get more cars sold, same for Audi, VW and the other brands.How many and Just who will be buying optioned out 4cyl  Boxsters for 100k? angry  The fat profit times  for VW group might be over.


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    dreamcar:

    VW Group have now provided a link where it is possible to check by entering your car's VIN to see if it is fitted with an engine that has the "cheat" software. Just checked my Skoda and thankfully it is in the clear, as all the Mk. 3 Octavias like mine have the later EA 288 engine, not the EA 189 which is  the guilty version of the 2.0 TDI engine Smiley

    Good to hear Smiley

    I wonder what the differences between the two engines are?

    Probably the EA288 version wasn't sold in the USA and so VW AG had no motive to install the defeat device.


    --

     

    "Form follows function"

     


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests


    image.jpeg


    --

    2003 Cayenne Turbo


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    biggest losers  of course are the Peich and Porsche families who have lost a combined $ 17B ( and counting)  in the value of their VWAG stock holdings in the past few weeks ...do yah think a few of the third and fourth generations , far removed from the car biz , are more than just a little bit " annoyed " by the criminal antics of some of the revolving door C-suite suits doing whatever it took to meet the irrelavent  " biggest p*n^s " VWAG goal set in 2008 to be number 1 in the world by 2018 ? 

    how many here have garages chock full of GM and Toyota products just because they  have traded " #1 in total sales  " back and forth for years 

     

     


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    nberry:

    I'll bet a lot of posters here would have ferociously fought mandatory seat belts in cars.mail

    It is my understanding that VW will go on a severe cost cutting program which will impact many employees in order to address the financial tsunami they will be facing. I hope those that post on RT will be safe.surprise

    99% of the RT posters are not working for the VW Group, incl. myself and the moderators, so I'd say it is a safe bet to assume that we're going to be fine (from that particular point of view). Smiley Smiley

    Financial tsunami? Yes, this is a good one. Today, the VW stock is back to 112 EUR (it was around 90 EUR at some point, from a high of 254 EUR within the last 12 months) but since the risks are not really calculable, the biggest surprise (in a negative sense) may have yet to come. Smiley If VW cannot invest in new products and technology, they will have huge problems with their business in the future, so... Smiley Also, nobody knows how much money they will need to put in their hands to make this scandal go away and it may take years.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    Don't know how much truth there is to it, but I've read that many diesels out there in real world conditions are way over the limit, even though they pass lab testing.


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    noone1:

    Don't know how much truth there is to it, but I've read that many diesels out there in real world conditions are way over the limit, even though they pass lab testing.

    I am pretty sure about it, especially when they are driven fast on the Autobahn for example.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    For those that are wondering if Porsche motorsport is at risk:

    http://www.dailysportscar.com/2015/10/07/porsche-confirm-2-car-2016-imsa-gtlm-effort.html


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    reginos:
    dreamcar:

    VW Group have now provided a link where it is possible to check by entering your car's VIN to see if it is fitted with an engine that has the "cheat" software. Just checked my Skoda and thankfully it is in the clear, as all the Mk. 3 Octavias like mine have the later EA 288 engine, not the EA 189 which is  the guilty version of the 2.0 TDI engine Smiley

    Good to hear Smiley

    I wonder what the differences between the two engines are?

    Probably the EA288 version wasn't sold in the USA and so VW AG had no motive to install the defeat device.


    --

     

    "Form follows function"

     

    Not entirely sure of all the differences - I believe the later engine is all aluminium block and head whereas E189 is aluminium head with cast iron block but I guess apart from the obvious software there are numerous other changes.


    --

     

    Porsche Boxster GTS Carrara white / Skoda Octavia Mk.3 daily drive

     


     
    Edit

    Forum

    Board Subject Last post Rating Views Replies
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: New 991.2 GT3 (2017) 9/18/18 2:01 PM
    throt
    378420 4940
    Porsche Sticky SUN'S LAST RUN TO WILSON, WY - 991 C2S CAB LIFE, END OF AN ERA 9/18/18 10:29 AM
    RCA
    313664 1929
    Porsche Sticky The moment I've been waiting for... 7/21/18 6:45 AM
    bluelines
     
     
     
     
     
    206827 1067
    Porsche Sticky 992 (Next 911 generation 2019/2020) 9/19/18 4:55 PM
    Grant
    187056 2147
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: 911 GT2 RS (2017) 9/19/18 11:47 AM
    BjoernB
    168727 2573
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: 991.2 GT3 RS (2018) 9/17/18 11:50 AM
    RCA
    99832 2134
    AMG Sticky Mercedes E63 S AMG (2018) - Short Review (updated on a regular basis) 9/18/18 9:54 AM
    RCA
    26888 290
    Porsche Sticky Child seats in a 991 6/18/18 8:51 PM
    Monkey
    11909 31
    Porsche Sticky Paint protection film 8/16/18 6:40 AM
    GnilM
    11373 85
    Porsche 918 latest news Thread Closed 11/6/17 10:43 AM
    RCA
    608003 5574
    Porsche 991 GT3 RS 1/9/18 1:43 PM
    Kimi
    509132 5816
    Porsche OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S 4/3/18 9:15 AM
    KresoF1
    481004 4254
    Porsche OFFICIAL: 911 R (2016) 9/13/18 10:12 AM
    RCA
    271808 2589
    Porsche Cayman GT4 9/19/18 5:15 PM
    bluelines
    252909 2536
    Porsche OFFICIAL: New 991.2 Turbo and Turbo S 1/23/18 12:27 AM
    RCA
    189630 1074
    Ferrari 488 GTB/GTS 9/5/18 4:51 PM
    Grant
    181463 1613
    McLaren McLaren on a winning streak 9/7/18 4:38 PM
    TB993tt
    170981 3133
    Porsche Boxster Spyder (981) 8/31/18 10:25 AM
    WAY
    141404 757
    Others Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016 model) - Review (updated Feb 13th 2017) 9/19/18 4:35 PM
    RCA
    133684 2183
    Porsche OFFICIAL: New Panamera (2016) 1/6/18 10:41 PM
    Wonderbar
    126126 1284
    Ferrari Ferrari F12 Berlinetta / 599 GTO Successor 5/22/18 9:16 PM
    RCA
    110627 789
    Others VW caught cheating emissions tests 5/3/18 7:52 PM
    CGX car nut
    105633 871
    Porsche OFFICIAL: 718 Boxster (2016) 10/20/17 11:17 AM
    DaveGordon
    98518 732
    Porsche Porsche Mission E - the future of Porsche? 9/10/18 2:35 PM
    SciFrog
    72806 923
    Porsche Donor vehicle for Singer Vehicle Design 7/29/18 8:40 PM
    Boxster Coupe GTS
    64355 660
    Porsche UPDATES: 2018 Porsche Cayenne 2/6/18 2:13 PM
    RCA
    56394 423
    Lambo Huracán Performante in "6.52 something" at the Ring? 11/7/17 12:30 AM
    kingjr9000
    49557 852
    Porsche OFFICIAL: New 991.2 Carrera GTS models 11/29/17 12:27 PM
    DJM48
    45167 471
    Others Tesla Model X Thread Closed 2/23/18 3:41 PM
    RCA
    42378 1122
    AMG AMG GT R 1/26/18 7:19 AM
    GoHardGT3RS
    40583 597
    306 items found, displaying 1 to 30.