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    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    It looks as if VW has established a "fix" for 5 million of the 11 million cars affected:

    http://www.cbsnews.com/news/volkswagen-to-refit-engines-on-5-million-diesels/


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    fritz


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    apias:
    fritz:
     

    Again, do we know that CO2 emissions and fuel consumption values claimed for the cars concerned by VW are only achieved with the "emission controls full off"?

    The test lab which raised this issue stated that NOx values were increased drastically by switching data maps, but that power output and fuel consumption were both improved with the cheat software. From what I've read, it still remains ambiguous whether power and consumption were improved against the manufacturer's claimed values or just against worse-than-claimed values achievable with full NOx controls in operation. 

    In my view, the answer to this question could be significant in terms of both choosing a technical solution for the cars affected and in terms of any judgements for damages imposed on VW in favour of car owners. 

    My understanding is that the engines only achieve the advertised fuel economy and horsepower when the "defeat device" is off -- i.e., when emission controls are not active. So, it's not possible to achieve legal NOx levels and advertised fuel economy and performance levels at the same time. It's either/or, or possibly by compromising all three.

    Do you have a reliable source which expressly says that, or is it just your assumption on the basis of the same ambiguous information that I've been reading?    Smiley

    The reason I query it is because I believe that NOx and CO2 emissions tests are carried out as part of the same rolling road programme cycle, so if a defeat device is used to whitewash the NOx values, then the resultant downgrading of CO2 /fuel consumption values would also have to be used as a basis for published claims. 


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    fritz

     


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    I don't have a specific source at hand, because I read this over a week ago, but the articles I read weren't ambiguous on this point. (It's possible they were wrong, although I don't believe so, but they weren't ambiguous.)


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    FWIW, one sentence in the USA Today article linked to below suggests that it is not yet clear as to whether a software fix will lead to worse consumption/CO2 values and performance: 

    Quote:
    "It's unclear how the fix will affect the fuel economy and general performance of the cars involved in the scandal, though some industry experts expect the cars' fuel economy ratings to fall."

    http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2015/09/29/emissions-scandal-volkswagen-propose-diesel-cars-fix/73028188/


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    fritz


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    I think what you are seeing there is the USA Today reporter trying to be "fair and balanced". Every technical discussion and expert quote I've read were pretty clear that, "the fix* [if it lowers NOx emissions] will affect the fuel economy and general performance of the cars involved."

    * These fixes being of the engine mapping variety.

    The only way around this, might be to retrofit the cars with urea injection systems, but every knowledgable comment I've seen on that indicates that it would be extremely difficult and expensive to do, in part, at least, because there is no space for a urea tank, and possibly not for the other equipment as well.


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    Over here these cars pay an anual tax according to their CO2 emition. If VW does not mantain these CO2 with new software and CO2 rises, all owners will have to pay anually much more money according to new higher CO2 and I can tell you that is not cheap, so big legal problems might arise from this situation, apart from all others. According to VW there are 94000 units here in Portugal with this software. 


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    J.Seven

     

     


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    Wouldn't the fuel economy goes UP after the 'fix'?

    Doesn't make sense if it goes down after. If it's emitting too much already, consuming more fuel is going to make matter even worse by emitting even more stuff.

     


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    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    With the "defeat device" "on" for testing, fuel economy takes a hit, as does performance.

    With the "defeat device" "off", as it is in normal driving, fuel economy goes up.

    So, if the "fix" were to switch the "defeat device" (i.e., NOx emission controls) on always (NOx emission controls always on), fuel economy would suffer.


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    Use more gas while emitting less NOx? Doesn't quite make sense to me.


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    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    Short answer: Extra fuel is used to burn off trapped NOx. This,

    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/next/tech/volkswagen-diesel-emissions/

    which I just found, is one of the few articles that actually discusses the chemistry involved rather than just how they detected they were in test conditions.


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    Thanks.

    Now it all make sense. I suspect during the test cycle the LNT is on full trap mode, nothing gets released out, hence the extra low emissions.

    But during normal driving the LNT works as it was intended but even with that it still emits too much NOx. 

    So basically VW is now in a corner with no way out. 

     


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    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    Finally, I've had a bit of time to look more into the issues with the Volkswagen EA 189 Diesel engine at the center of this matter and have found a series of interesting facts.  

    First, there, as some have pointed out, is an inverse relationship between NOx and CO2 emissions.  The lean burn feature of the engine reduces fuel consumption, consequently, carbon emissions drop.  However, temperatures in the combustion chamber increase, thus increasing the likelihood of NOx emissions.  

    Second, as a way of controlling NOx emissions, automakers employ Exhaust Gas Recirculation ("EGR") methods to inject oxygen-poor exhaust gases into the combustion chamber to lower the combustion temperatures to reduce the formation of NOx compounds.  Volkswagen, on the EA 189 and the its replacement motor, the EA 288, employ two independent EGR systems.  

    The first EGR system is the usual high pressure system directing hot exhaust gases, via a cooling unit, from the exhaust manifold into the intake manifold.  This system is located before the turbocharger and continuous use can essentially "stall" the turbocharger.  

    The second EGR system is a lower pressure, cooler temperature system that takes exhaust gases after it passes through the particulate filter and feeds these cooler gases into the the compressor side of the turbocharger.  Hence, the turbocharger does not stall like in the higher pressure system as the expansion chamber of the turbocharger is unaffected.

    Both EGR systems can operate independent or in cooperation with each other, as defined by the engine operating mapping system in the ECU.  This is one likely cause of the on/off switch nature of the complaint issued by the EPA. 

    Finally, as others have mentioned too, the Lean NOx adsorbent system trap ("LNT") employed on the EA 189 motor, with use become supersaturated with NOx compounds.  The mixture in the combustion chamber is enriched away from the lean operating parameters to increase temperatures in the LNT to break the NOx compounds into Nitrogen and other benign compounds.  This too can be switched off by the ECU mapping. 


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    So you are telling me that the US will sue VW when what you are about to see is an everyday occurrence here in my little home town of Kansas City.  My Turbo has been fogged by an 8+ liter diesel several times.  You have to watch out for their 'shitty' sense of humor and keep your distance. It's all good.

    Smiley

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAHSghUsnHA

    Now back to your discussion...

    Cheers

     

     


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

     

    County sues VW. Amazing - not to imagine what happens if the rest of the world follows

    http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/County-wants-100-million-for-Volkswagen-fumes-6537825.php


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    SoCal Alan:

    I need my coffee this morning...

    Had mine, didn't really help. Smiley Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)



    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    Porsche and Piech families back Poetsch as new chairman

    http://news.yahoo.com/porsche-piech-families-back-poetsch-chairman-source-085427283--finance.html


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    1.2 million VW, Audi, Seat & Skoda Diesel engined cars in the UK have the "cheat" software. VW will advise their dealers of the VIN numbers of the affected vehicles and set up a procedure so that owners can check if their vehicles are included.
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    Porsche Boxster GTS Carrara white / Skoda Octavia Mk.3 daily drive

     


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    Spyderidol:

    Oliver Blume to be appointed CEO of Porsche today:

    https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=de&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.faz.net%2Fagenturmeldungen%2Funternehmensnachrichten%2Fneuer-porsche-chef-soll-am-mittwoch-berufen-werden-13830156.html&edit-text=

    Oliver Blume would be a good choice, he is a team player (from what I heard) and he isn't too old (under 50 I think), he also loves and understands the Porsche brand as far as I heard. He is, according to my Porsche sources, a Porsche guy, someone who cherishes the brand.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    Thanks RC. Yes , he is 47.

    As usual , my main concern is to find out if he is a motorsport guy. Muller was a great supporter , and now with Hatz  temporarily out of the picture, it is vital the Blume provide all the support that is required.

     


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    Spyderidol:

    Thanks RC. Yes , he is 47.

    As usual , my main concern is to find out if he is a motorsport guy. Muller was a great supporter , and now with Hatz  temporarily out of the picture, it is vital the Blume provide all the support that is required.

     

    Let me put it this way: As far as I heard, he is not your typical motorsport supporter or enthusiast. This doesn't mean of course that he wouldn't support motorsport but he will have a very tough time to raise the current production/sales level, actually I think that Porsche will not be able to raise production figures further. I am also curious how the new 911 will be accepted by customers because so far, it seems that nobody has a clue. Smiley Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)



    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    Wow, that's a BIG shuffle of people, quite a few I have met before too.


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    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    You all are missing the big picture. VW cheated on an issue that affects millions of people who do not own VW's. The toxicity level from the cheat increased 40 times above normal. That is a fact no one to my knowledge disputes. 

    EU gets a quick fix because their standards are not as stringent as US requirements. US VW owners now must continue to drive excessively polluting cars which all US citizens must suffer through.

    The EPA fine for each cheat car can be up to $37,500. If I am not mistaken, VW builds cars in the US and if true that would go a long way in reducing the amount of the fines they must pay the EPA. 

    If the fix results in lost performance, it is not a given that legally VW would be required to take the cars back. But for PR reasons VW may opt to do so.


    --

    Of little, to make much: That is the dream of a human life.


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests


    Does anyone think that  VW-Audi and others will fail because of this serious situation? This affair is gathering mass like a snowball and no one can foresee the gravity of its consequences.

    Will the fines, compensations, costs of repairs and decrease in sales cripple the companies financially to a dangerous extent?

    Will VW-Audi be forced to go out of business eventually under the burden of this fraud?

    Will the German government need to step in for a bail-out to save jobs and the national industrial prestige? How popular this scenario would be in Germany with federal elections in 2 years?

    The 6 or 7 billion EUR earmarked by the VW Group for dealing with this crisis are definitely very inadequate.

     


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    "Form follows function"

     


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    Well these cars are 'dirtier' than they should be, but the are still many man times cleaner than the millions of older unmaintained cars that are on the road right now. How come the EPA doesn't go after those?


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    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    There is no danger of VW going under as a result of this fraud. Certainly none of the government agencies will want to punish VW to the point it fails. However,  the cheat did allow them a competitive advantage against other car companies that had to design diesel engines to meet costly emission requirements. This issue must be addressed.

    While it is true there are a few vehicles by law exempted from emission requirements, their impact to the environment is minimal. The cheating with VW started in 2009.

     


    --

    Of little, to make much: That is the dream of a human life.


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    Fraud. Likely in some jurisdictions a loss for vw in court could mean potentially dire consequences from exemplary penalties.. But they brought this unto themselves.  Harris county texas is suing VW for 100 million dollars. Just wait until Cook county Illinois files suit.angry  Good luck to VW getting a friendly jury in those locations. A German Porsche mechanic once remarked to me that VW Porsche service costs were Germany's revenge for losing WW2. Those years of  profits might be carved away by years of local, county, state and individual lawsuits beyond what the feds intend to do.


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    Once again, this is a disgraceful and deceitful act that has been committed by this company which will result in a negative image of all things German.

    It has tarnished the reputation of the "Made in Germany" label.

    People here are already creating jokes about the Germans and VW.

    RC, I wonder if the Greeks with diesel VWs will be filing lawsuits against the Germans. 


    --

    2003 Cayenne Turbo


     
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