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    there is something alluring about American muscle cars

     

    I drooled over this today:
     
     
     
     
    It's stunning in the metal. Panels and paint quality is top notch. It feels well built. Only thing is the door doesn't clunk shut, more  slightly clangs shut.
     
    Interior quality is much better than expected. There's leather trim on the dash, door arm rests and center arm rest. Leather is Mercedes quality. Plastics are more Mini, but still perfectly acceptable.
     
    It has great stereo as standard (Boston Acoustics), and Head Up Display which is amazingly cool (you can select what is displayed, and adjust the display up/down) and which I absolutely loved.
     
    The salesman started it, and it sounded fabulous. Blipping it was just as good. Sounds rorty and angry, and wonderful.
     
    Am in love .. test drive for early September.
     

    Re: there is something alluring about American muscle cars

    good looking.......but no soul....


    --
    Speed has never killed anyone, suddenly becoming stationary... That's what gets you.

    Re: there is something alluring about American muscle cars

    Has soul, just not the refined - feedback latent soul European drivers are used to.

    US muscle is about cheap speed not minute detail to feedback and dynamics. It can be summed up in a few powerpoint bullets: inexpensive platform, relatively technologically and mechanically simple package and easy to maintain, a large displacement engine, sound should be brash and loud, and the entire package made inexpensive and every-man affordable (Manufacturer's special model variants excluded).

    They are broadswords not fencing foils and katanas.  If you go in with that level of expectation you tend to walk away generally satisfied.

    With that said I am often saddened that the American majors cannot produce a production sports car or supercar that legitimately matches all the areas of performance and refinement of the Europeans and lately, the Japanese.

    The Cadillac CTS-V sort of approaches AMG, S & M levels of package value - but outside of this we have nothing else.

     


    Re: there is something alluring about American muscle cars

    Drive it and get it out of your system.indecision

    Consider the convertible version, resale and the fun factor is way higher.


    Re: there is something alluring about American muscle cars

    I was supposed to testdrive a ZL1 last weekend but it wasn't available (despite the promise). yes

    Price tag is 72k EUR, I actually would have gotten the car for 69k EUR.

    Two weeks ago, I was able to testdrive a Camaro Cabriolet (version with automatic tranny and V8/420 hp or so) and while the price tag, cash price would have been 40k EUR, was amazing for such a powerful Cab, the engine/exhaust sound was very disappointing. If the ZL1 sounds the same, no thanks, I'd rather stick to the only German muscle car, the C63 AMG. indecision


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, BMW X5M, Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe PP/DP, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: there is something alluring about American muscle cars

    the attraction for me is the way it looks, like nothing else made by a European manufacturer ..

    I know it won't be as fast, as accomplished or any well developed as my CLS55 ..

    but there's something deeply attractive about simplicity, brute force and an 'honest' platform

    Camaro manual has 432 PS (569 NM) and auto has 405 PS (556 NM).

    Much prefer the Coupe's looks to the convertible.

    ZL1 is not available (yet) in the UK market, but sounds like it's nearly double price, at which point, AMG is the better bet.


    Re: there is something alluring about American muscle cars

    RC:

    I was supposed to testdrive a ZL1 last weekend but it wasn't available (despite the promise). yes

    Price tag is 72k EUR, I actually would have gotten the car for 69k EUR.

    Two weeks ago, I was able to testdrive a Camaro Cabriolet (version with automatic tranny and V8/420 hp or so) and while the price tag, cash price would have been 40k EUR, was amazing for such a powerful Cab, the engine/exhaust sound was very disappointing. If the ZL1 sounds the same, no thanks, I'd rather stick to the only German muscle car, the C63 AMG. indecision

    OMW,  40K base. The convertible rolls out the dealer door for less than ~27K Eur here in the US. 


    Re: there is something alluring about American muscle cars

    that's partly because Euro prices include VAT (Germany 19%, UK 20%) on the car's price.

    Euro spec cars have more toys too perhaps.

     


    Re: there is something alluring about American muscle cars

    sfo:

    that's partly because Euro prices include VAT (Germany 19%, UK 20%) on the car's price.

    Euro spec cars have more toys too perhaps.

     

    You are right. Furthermore, the cars have been adapted technically (chassis, brakes, tires, light system) and some options, which cost money in the US, are free in Europe.

    Overall, the V8 Cab is a very nice offer for 40k EUR, you barely get anything else which comes even close (performance, coolness-wise).

    GM also offers a 3 year or 100000 km warranty for these cars.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, BMW X5M, Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe PP/DP, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: there is something alluring about American muscle cars

    Hmm, for one reason or another, the image and design of american cars never really appealed to me.
    I can imagine though that if I will be sent abroad to the US for my work, it would make perfect sense to drive a car like this over there.
    It would also greatly add to the experience of working/living in the US as an NL expat.


    --

    Porsche, seperates LeMans from LeBoys

    Re: there is something alluring about American muscle cars

    RC:
    Furthermore, the cars have been adapted technically (chassis, brakes, tires, light system) and some options, which cost money in the US, are free in Europe.

    I read that GM had Europeanised the Camaro with suspension tweaks to make it handle better .. will report back when I test drive the Coupe next month.

    In UK spec are Xenon lights but no mention of headlight washers. I don't remember seeing headlight washers on the showroom car ..


    Re: there is something alluring about American muscle cars

    Speaking of US cars: The father of my son's best friend, he owns a pretty large factory, recently bought a Corvette ZR1. He doesn't like Porsche too much and when he heard that we got a Porsche Panamera (my son didn't say which one), he told him that his ZR1 would easily outrun any Porsche. Now my son (and his son) are bugging us to make some sort of burnout and we even have found the proper (his factory) parking lot for this "event". If this happens, I will make sure that someone is taking a video of this, it will be quite interesting. 

    I actually think that he will have the surprise of his life from stand still (and with launch control) indecision and since the parking lot probably doesn't allow more than 160 kph, I will probably outrun him by at least half a car length. Can't wait to make this Porsche hater suffer. smiley

    Little background: He doesn't know much about cars but he also owns a Bentley Continental sedan.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, BMW X5M, Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe PP/DP, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: there is something alluring about American muscle cars

    I can't wait to see the PTS leave the ZR1 behind ..


    Re: there is something alluring about American muscle cars

    Without wanting to upset you RC, the ZR1 was clocked at 7.3s for the 0-100 mph (160 km/h) dash, whereas the Panamera Turbo took 8.4s. Both measured by the respected R&T magazine. I would stay clear of the Vette if I were you. Unless that other bloke is useless behind the wheel that is. smiley


    --
    FERRARI RULES!!!


    Re: there is something alluring about American muscle cars

    sfo:

    I can't wait to see the PTS leave the ZR1 behind ..

    Smiley Of course I don't stand a chance at higher speeds but what does he know... Smiley Smiley

    I know, I know...we should be responsible parents but c'mon, they are kids and I will take my son to various driving ed events as soon as he is allowed to participate, even before he has his driver's license.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, BMW X5M, Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe PP/DP, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: there is something alluring about American muscle cars

    REALZEUS:

    Without wanting to upset you RC, the ZR1 was clocked at 7.3s for the 0-100 mph (160 km/h) dash, whereas the Panamera Turbo took 8.4s. Both measured by the respected R&T magazine. I would stay clear from the Vette if I were you. Unless that other bloke is useless behind the wheel that is. smiley

    Well...this is the difference between values on paper an practical experience: My car does 0-100 kph in 3.7 seconds. Considering the fact that the other driver isn't that experienced (he drives his Bentley most of the time...or a Mercedes R class and that he will have traction issues in the beginning), I will gain at least a car length before he can start catching up to me. This is why I said half a car length at around 160 kph. Smiley

    You know, this isn't the first time I've done this stuff.  Smiley Smiley

    I also rather rely on Sport Auto regarding testing, they tested the ZR1 at 4.0 seconds from 0-100 kph and 7.8 seconds from 0-160 kph. At the same time, they tested the Panamera Turbo S at 8.0 from 0-160 kph. Not much of a difference and considering my traction advantage... Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, BMW X5M, Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe PP/DP, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: there is something alluring about American muscle cars

    Oh you have a Turbo S? I was referring to the normal Turbo. This is going to be close.


    --
    FERRARI RULES!!!

    Re: there is something alluring about American muscle cars

    REALZEUS:

    Oh you have a Turbo S? I was referring to the normal Turbo. This is going to be close.

    This is what I'm betting on. Since I also got the first car with Inconel turbo chargers, some sort of a beta test for Porsche Smiley, my car is really running great.

    8.03 seconds from 100 kph to 200 kph with full tank but only driver. My car has only 4000 km, just imagine how well it will run at 10000 km (hopefully). I am very pleased. The factory testcar I had, a Panamera Turbo Powerkit with permanent overboost function, wasn't faster. Smiley

    I am very reluctant to do this comparison with the other dad because he actually told my son, a kid, that Porsche sucks. Well, my son took this pretty seriously, so I have to prove the other dad wrong. Smiley Hopefully. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, BMW X5M, Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe PP/DP, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: there is something alluring about American muscle cars

    RC:
    the other dad because he actually told my son, a kid, that Porsche sucks. Well, my son took this pretty seriously, so I have to prove the other dad wrong. Smiley Hopefully. Smiley

     Germany's honour is resting on your shoulders Smiley


    Re: there is something alluring about American muscle cars

    RC:

    I was supposed to testdrive a ZL1 last weekend but it wasn't available (despite the promise). yes

    Price tag is 72k EUR, I actually would have gotten the car for 69k EUR.

    Wow, here the price starts at $56,295 (~ 45k Euros)


    --

    73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs).  Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550 Maranello


    Re: there is something alluring about American muscle cars

    RC:
    REALZEUS:

    Oh you have a Turbo S? I was referring to the normal Turbo. This is going to be close.

    This is what I'm betting on. Since I also got the first car with Inconel turbo chargers, some sort of a beta test for Porsche Smiley, my car is really running great.

    8.03 seconds from 100 kph to 200 kph with full tank but only driver. My car has only 4000 km, just imagine how well it will run at 10000 km (hopefully). I am very pleased. The factory testcar I had, a Panamera Turbo Powerkit with permanent overboost function, wasn't faster. Smiley

    I am very reluctant to do this comparison with the other dad because he actually told my son, a kid, that Porsche sucks. Well, my son took this pretty seriously, so I have to prove the other dad wrong. Smiley Hopefully. Smiley

    Careful he doesn't lose control and run into you by mistake! The ZR1 is an awesome car but it's a handful for inexperienced drivers...


    Re: there is something alluring about American muscle cars

    rhino:
    Careful he doesn't lose control and run into you by mistake! The ZR1 is an awesome car but it's a handful for inexperienced drivers...

    Funny that you mention this, I was actually thinking about that.  Smiley

    I don't know when this guy got his car, I don't even know if it has been run in already and I don't know his driving skills (he drives Bentley and Mercedes R class most of the time) but I'm kind of looking forward to it. Not only because I didn't like that an adult tells a kid "my car is better than your dad's", which I would never do but also because I really like the ZR1. Smiley

    I just hope the car is stock, this guy has tons of money.  Smiley He has a V12 badge on his Mercedes R class and I wonder if this car really has a V12 (Brabus and others offer such mods).


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, BMW X5M, Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe PP/DP, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: there is something alluring about American muscle cars

    Couple of points - the Chevy warranty in the US is for 10 years and 100K miles.  Price is much cheaper too!

    RC - the Vette also has traction control.  Don't race for pink slips (titles).  He will have very sticky tires, much more power and less weight.  Not really a contest, I predict you will make a good showing and surprise him but you will lose, even in a 0-100 mph shootout.  Over 100 mph - no way.  They are simply not comparable - the PTS is nice but not a sports car.

    Just teach your son to say Corvette sucks.  Simple - let the hot chicks decide later in his life.


    Re: there is something alluring about American muscle cars

    Unless the Corvettes tires are really warmed up and uber sticky from at least one burnout, The PTS will destroy him. The vettes rear tires won't have enough traction for a good and fast launch time.

    Most all US magazine ZR1 Vette accelleration times were taken during ideal conditions- warm track surface, hot tires with at least one burnout before doing insturmented tests in a straight line.

    If the Vette driver does not have a lot of experience doing pre run burnouts and hard race launches he is not going to get a as advertised 0-to whatever time.

    Because the Vettes rear end is so light, even with its advanced TC and Launch Control it still needs super hot tire temperatures to get anywhere near the claimed accelleration times of zero to whatever. While the AWD PTS just hooks up and gos like a rocket.

    This video is a example of how GM engineers heat up a ZR-1's tires before doing insturmented accelleration tests. No offense to Herr Factory So and So, but I doubt if he has the smarts, balls or skills to compete against a PTS with an ex rally driver behind the wheel. If he does and conditions are right, watch out!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLAa3tRhx8M

     


    Re: there is something alluring about American muscle cars

    Leawood911:

    Couple of points - the Chevy warranty in the US is for 10 years and 100K miles.  Price is much cheaper too!

    RC - the Vette also has traction control.  Don't race for pink slips (titles).  He will have very sticky tires, much more power and less weight.  Not really a contest, I predict you will make a good showing and surprise him but you will lose, even in a 0-100 mph shootout.  Over 100 mph - no way.  They are simply not comparable - the PTS is nice but not a sports car.

    Just teach your son to say Corvette sucks.  Simple - let the hot chicks decide later in his life.

    ZR1: 0-100 kph in 4.0 seconds, 0-200 kph in 11.4 seconds (Sport Auto)

    PTS: 0-100 kph in 3.7 seconds, 0-200 kph in 12.4 seconds (Sport Auto)...I measured mine at 11.77 seconds (Performance Box, two runs average).

    From 0-100 kph (62 mph), the ZR1 stands no chance vs. the Panamera Turbo S. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, BMW X5M, Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe PP/DP, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: there is something alluring about American muscle cars

    Interesting (same source):

    Corvette ZR1 (US version)

    zr1.png

     

    Panamera Turbo S (US version, merely 900 mls on the car)

    pts.png


    As you can see, even from 0-75 mph, the Panamera Turbo S is slightly faster. Smiley

     

     

    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, BMW X5M, Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe PP/DP, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: there is something alluring about American muscle cars

    RC - note my specific reference to 0-100mph.  In the Quarter mile (our most popular event) he smokes the PTS.  After that is is clearly Auf Wiedersehen.

    Seriously - an adult pissing contest based on magazine numbers?  Lets see the real race on youTube!

    Mind you - you know my Porsche history - I am no Corvette fan and would never consider even driving one.  My neighbor is a Chevy dealer and brings home new ones every weekend for me to peek at (and drive if I ask).  Not interested in plastic crap.

    Bottom line - that Vette is a rocket ship, no comparison.  Let the 911 Turbo S deal with it.  You may be missing the point of the PTS - Autobahn distance destruction in comfort.


    Re: there is something alluring about American muscle cars

    Leawood911:

     the point of the PTS - Autobahn distance destruction in comfort.

    Thinking of it in those terms, I am surprised you haven't gotten one already.  Smiley


    Re: there is something alluring about American muscle cars

    Leawood911:

    RC - note my specific reference to 0-100mph.  In the Quarter mile (our most popular event) he smokes the PTS.  After that is is clearly Auf Wiedersehen.

    Seriously - an adult pissing contest based on magazine numbers?  Lets see the real race on youTube!

    Mind you - you know my Porsche history - I am no Corvette fan and would never consider even driving one.  My neighbor is a Chevy dealer and brings home new ones every weekend for me to peek at (and drive if I ask).  Not interested in plastic crap.

    Bottom line - that Vette is a rocket ship, no comparison.  Let the 911 Turbo S deal with it.  You may be missing the point of the PTS - Autobahn distance destruction in comfort.

    I think you are missing the point of the PTS...a 911 for those who need four full sized seats. 

    Nordschleife in 7:52 min....this is better than the 997 Turbo pre-facelift. Smiley Same goes to the Hockenheim time, which would put a lot of "real" sportscars to shame.

    The Cayman R does the Nordschleife in 8.10 min. and Hockenheim Kleiner Kurs in the same time. A Cayman R.

    The Panamera Turbo S is 4 seconds faster on the Nordschleife than the Ferrari California and over a second faster in Hockenheim.

    So maybe you should testdrive one before you make claims. Smiley

    In curves, I would probably put 90% of the drivers out there to shame, even if they drive high caliber sports cars. Yes, the PTS is that good.

    You are missing the point: I take off faster than the ZR1, I already smoked a Carrera GT that way Smiley and while the ZR1 may close in afterwards, I will still be ahead at 100 mph, even if it is only by an inch. This would be enough for me. Smiley

    This is just a silly comparison, nothing serious and it is supposed to be fun for the kids (and hopefully for the parents too). Of course I want to make a point and I think I will. No matter what happens, the won't "smoke" me and this is what matters most. Unless of course his car isn't stock but I guess I need to take the risk.

    Btw: The 160 kph (100 mph) speed was just a theoretical value based on the length of the parking lot. After doing some not very precise calculations in my head, I'd rather say that we won't be faster than 100 or maybe 120 kph in the end. So this should definitely be doable for me and my 2 ton Porsche. 

    I just need to convince my wife to take the video, so far she was the one who insisted on this "comparison" (the guy's ex-wife is one of her best friends Smiley) but she doesn't want to hold the camera. Now I am thinking of mounting a Hero 2 cam on my roof with a suction thingie, this could be an alternative.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, BMW X5M, Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe PP/DP, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: there is something alluring about American muscle cars

    Yes, please, do a video !!  blush

    I actually hope the ZR1 wins,  because I find it so sad when a sedan is faster then a sports car  surprise,   even if it will probably be yours due to the AWD and launch control on a short distance run.

     


    --

     997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm


     
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