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    Re: 997 C4S - WIDER by 15mm

    Quote:
    dhayek said:
    all i am saying is that its unfair for turbo owners who paid a lot more money to have the same body look on a much cheaper model , do you think it make sense to have a turbo look on a c4s ,if so,why not on the c2s?or c2? dont you think c2,c2s,c4,c4s should have the same body ,and the turbo to be different?




    Do you think it's unfair to the GT2 owners who paid alot more money to have the same body look on a much cheaper model...the Turbo ???

    Having all the cars look the same would be boring...

    Re: 997 C4S - WIDER by 15mm

    Well I do think RC has a point,with all these 996C4S convertibles in Florida and California which are never used on track what earthly reason would you have for forgoing the edge of rear wheel drive except for a "go faster" appearance. Purity of design and engineering and attention to weight was and is Porsche's forte,don't you think some of that is lost in the C4S !

    Re: 997 C4S - WIDER by 15mm

    Quote:
    RC said:
    The C4S is a poser car, I'm sorry to say that. Performance mongers go for a 997 CS, track addicts go for the 997 GT3 and power mongers go for the "real" thing, the 997 Turbo. The C4S just satisfies the needs of people who want to have a nice and aggressive/wide looking Porsche but don't want the Turbo engine due to financial reasons or, as unbelievable this might sound, because the turbo engine is too powerful for them and they don't want it or don't see any reason to go for it. I don't want to offend anybody but I never understood why somebody would buy a C4S and not the Turbo.

    But of course the C4S is a beautiful car, no doubt about it.



    finally someone has the balls to say it.

    thumbs up RC.

    Re: 997 C4S - WIDER by 15mm

    And as you might have observed Moogle...just a few have had the requisite arguments to rebutt.

    Re: 997 C4S - WIDER by 15mm

    to follow this "logic"
    any Boxster is poser car to any 911
    996 C2 is poser car to 996 GT3
    996 Turbo is poser car to GT2
    997C2 is poser car to 997C2S
    C2S is poser car to future 997GT3
    C2 and C2S is poser car to future 997 GT2
    997 Turbo is poser car to future 997GT2

    ergo any 997 is poser car to Carrera GT

    I don't know why anyone would buy C2S and not the GT3
    I don't know why anyone would buy C2S and not the CGT



    BTW moogle notice you haven't posted on ferrarichat anymore...

    Re: 997 C4S - WIDER by 15mm

    Quote:
    JP66 said:
    Quote:
    dhayek said:
    all i am saying is that its unfair for turbo owners who paid a lot more money to have the same body look on a much cheaper model , do you think it make sense to have a turbo look on a c4s ,if so,why not on the c2s?or c2? dont you think c2,c2s,c4,c4s should have the same body ,and the turbo to be different?





    Do you think it's unfair to the GT2 owners who paid alot more money to have the same body look on a much cheaper model...the Turbo ???

    Having all the cars look the same would be boring...


    personaly i can recognize the gt2 from a 100meters ,it has a different,and very nice front end,and a different rear spoiler ,different wheels and tyre size ,and all of those differences cannot be ordered on any turbo,carrera or else.so its fair for gt2 owners,unlike turbo owners

    Re: 997 C4S - WIDER by 15mm

    Quote:
    brunner said:
    Quote:
    dhayek said:
    all i am saying is that its unfair for turbo owners who paid a lot more money to have the same body look on a much cheaper model


    'Turbo look' Carreras were made ever since the Turbo was introduced, so what's new?


    you are right it has always been this way ,and for me it has never been fair

    Re: 997 C4S - WIDER by 15mm

    i don't post on f-chat anymore because:

    originally i asked for some advice on the current market situation of the 360CS,

    all of this while i was probing potential car possibilities for my next addition

    however, when i reiterated that i was still in the midst of a decision and that i was not ready to immediately buy (which i had stated in the first place), i was met with a round of round of hostility and general insecure childishness that let me to lose all respect for that forum.

    that said i've got nothing against ferrari's themselves, but at the moment, i can't justify 230k for a car that does less than the GT3 (100k~) but only with perhaps slgihtly more 'emotion'.

    if asking a question about a car, without buying the cars that people offer to me in a brazen attempt at self profiteering, makes me a posuer and a fraud in the eyes of that community, then so be it, but i won't be a part of said community.

    Re: 997 C4S - WIDER by 15mm

    Quote:
    Moogle said:
    i don't post on f-chat anymore because:

    originally i asked for some advice on the current market situation of the 360CS,

    all of this while i was probing potential car possibilities for my next addition

    however, when i reiterated that i was still in the midst of a decision and that i was not ready to immediately buy (which i had stated in the first place), i was met with a round of round of hostility and general insecure childishness that let me to lose all respect for that forum.

    that said i've got nothing against ferrari's themselves, but at the moment, i can't justify 230k for a car that does less than the GT3 (100k~) but only with perhaps slgihtly more 'emotion'.

    if asking a question about a car, without buying the cars that people offer to me in a brazen attempt at self profiteering, makes me a posuer and a fraud in the eyes of that community, then so be it, but i won't be a part of said community.


    i did not see the discussion you are talking about ,but if some persons are annoying ,i am sure not everybody is the same .there is also some persons that pissed me many time with their stupid answers and argument ,and now i try not to answer them anymore..cool down!

    Re: 997 C4S - WIDER by 15mm

    Somebody educate me, please.

    AFAIK, performance depends on these major factors:

    Weight/weight distribution
    Tires
    Power
    Suspension
    Brakes

    Now, nobody is saying the C2 is a "poser" car, so let's take that for comparison to the C4S on each of these:

    1. Weight/weight distribution: slight penalty to the 4s, but likely better balanced (I don't know the numbers)
    2. Tires: 4s wider tires, bigger contact patch
    3. Power: equal
    4. Suspension: 4s gets the nod, with Turbo suspension
    5. Brakes: 4s again better, once again with Turbo components

    So, to my uneducated eyes, it looks like the 4s truly is a PERFORMANCE upgrade to the C2, not to mention AWD. This is as it should be, given the price difference.

    Of course it's not on par with the Turbo, which obviously ups the ante in the power department. This again is as it should be, given the 30k price difference.

    What am I missing here, RC?

    Re: 997 C4S - WIDER by 15mm

    Quote:
    TX 911 said:
    Somebody educate me, please. What am I missing here?



    Well, I would say that the C4S weighs quite alot more than a base C2 (not a slight difference as you mentioned). Also, although the larger wheels and brakes can definitely be an advantage in some circumstances (and may be necessary to overcome the greater mass of the C4S), they also contribute to significantly more unsprung rotating mass which has a dramatic negative impact on acceleration and handling. And for dry weather performance, you will lose even more power due to parasitic drivetrain losses through the front driveshaft, differential, etc. So, although the C4S and C2 have identical motors, the C2 can put more power to the track in most situations (when dry and not exiting very tight corners). Also, most C2's that are used for perfomance purposes have the inexpensive optional M030 or other suspension options which are as good or better than that assigned to the C4S. The wider body of the C4S also is less aerodynamic than the C2, making its very high speed performance somewhat worse.

    However, in poor weather or for less skilled drivers, the C4S has an advantage. It also looks very nice with that rear reflector (found on all 911's from 1974 to 1998 - don't know why they got rid of it...).

    Re: 997 C4S - WIDER by 15mm

    Yes, the C4s weighs more (as does the Turbo). The weight and "drivetrain loss" you mention is reflected in the straight line performance numbers, where the C4S gives up 0.1 sec to 62mph. On a twisty track, the story changes.

    I'm sure there are suspension options and upgrades out there for both the C2 and C4S, but I'm referring to stock.

    My only point is, I think it's a major stretch to call the C4S a 'poser' car. BTW, if being a poser means you don't track your car, count me as one, as well as probably the vast majority of C2 and Turbo owners.

    Bottom line, I think the term "poser" and the whole concept is silly. Just enjoy your cars...the C4s is a great one, and so are all the other 911 variants.

    Re: 997 C4S - WIDER by 15mm

    Quote:
    TX 911 said:
    My only point is, I think it's a major stretch to call the C4S a 'poser' car.



    Agreed.

    Re: 997 C4S - WIDER by 15mm

    Not sure who this is in reply to, as i just read the whole thread in one go...

    If the 996C4S is a posers car and it is unfair on Turbo owners as people are paying less for the same look - then isnt it the Turbo owners that are the ones that care too much about the looks?

    There are differences between the C4S and turbo, so it is not an exact copy... therefore the 996 facelift getting 'turbo headlights' means all 996 facelifts are posers cars too according to your logic on the C4S

    Re: 997 C4S - WIDER by 15mm

    I don't want to take sides but what you are missing is that the C4S extar pricetag for the "S" is not on true performance options.

    - You get a 200lbs heavier car, a "severe" penalty in my book
    - no extra power or torque (normally S models were characterised by an engine upgrade),
    - bigger brakes but which are superflous on a C2 anyway,
    - AWD is not a performance benefit for a "S" car,
    - the suspension on the C4S is just a simple M030 equivalent which can easily be fitted to the C2 for $1k.
    - and tires which are oversised on a 320HP car (the bigger the tires is not always better otherwise we would have tires the size of the Flintstones car's stone tires there is a balance between the specs of the car and the best performing tires, though sometimes for looks the tiers are made bigger than what should be performance wise as in the C4S)

    So if you want performance, for the same price of a C4S you can get a C2 200lbs lighter with 345HP Powerkit, 18" wheels, and sport suspension that will walk circles around a C4S. Its that easy to surpass the "S" of the C4S. Thats why its not considered a true "S" performance version, and some people say its more bark than bite with its turbo borrowed looks, which serev no purpose on the C4S since the is no need for wide body since its not turbocharged nor the big front air scoops that increase drag. If it were an aerokit with aerodinamic advantages and aids, that would be another matter, but the Turbo-looks is just that, for looks. I think thats RC's point, no real performance for the buck and just turbo-looks.

    However in US I think there is good non-poseur reason for buying the C4S, there is no C4 coupe, so if you want AWD in your carrera you have to go for the C4S. So it can't be generalised.

    Re: 997 C4S - WIDER by 15mm

    Carlos,

    Let's agree on this:

    On a track such as the 'ring, with similar drivers, the stock C2 and a stock C4S would be neck and neck. As hard as it is for some people to swallow, neither of these cars offers a significant performance advantage over the other.

    Therefore, if track performance is a wash, the C4S MUST have some performance upgrades to offset its 200-lb weight disadvantage.

    As such, whether a C4s is worth the extra money is a personal-opinion decision. For me, better looks (subjective), all leather interior, AWD, planted driving feel = worth the $.

    To summarize, if you want a 911:

    For track only: get a GT3...anything less is settling.

    For mostly street and some track or street only: C2, C4, C4S, GT3, Turbo...take your pick.

    These are different flavors of the same ice cream...all yummy. Choose on taste.

    Re: 997 C4S - WIDER by 15mm

    Oh boy, there's some gross over-simplifications going on here.

    1. The 'S' has not always been about power... look back into a number of 911 generations and you can see that. There was even a 993 C2S which was a C4S without AWD

    2. Obsessing over power-to-weight ratio does not buy you a better (which to most of you = faster in a straight line) car. Aston Martin know this, which is why the DB9 is so damn good. It's about balance, power distribution and overall ability to get from A to B as quickly as possible.

    3. I can tell the difference between a C4S and a Turbo from any angle... can't anyone else here do that? Ok, the turbo has a big plastic fin on the back, a couple of holes in the sides and a protruding plastic ice-scraper at the bottom of the front bumper (sorry turbo owners, only joking!) Again, I prefer the look of my C4S without these go-faster add-ons, but it's a personal thing.

    4. AWD is not a performance benefit... erm, perhaps you should ask why most world rally cars have it then? Simple answer.. cos it allows you to go faster around bends. When your back wheels lose traction in a C2S you can only rely on your natural driving ability or prayer to keep you alive... personally I would rather have the 40% of power in the front wheels pulling me out of the s**t!

    5. Turbo brakes are superfluous... do you track your car? I am not talking from experience here, but I assume that these just have to be better... whether the car has a turbo or not it still needs to get from scary to zero in not a lot of time, and I would rather have these stoppers on my side than the standard brakes. The closest I have come is stampting on the brakes when a dog ran out in front of me, and I nearly threw up as a result of the negative g. I'm sorry, but I think these brakes alone are worth the money.

    6. Wider body=wider track=slightly more balance. No need?

    7. So if I add a sunroof and sat nav and heated seats and other bits and pieces to a C2 that add up to 200lb does that make the C2 unworthy? Hey, I weigh 250lb, I guess I am a severe penalty to my car over someone half my weight.

    8. C4S tyres are too big? Really? I am not sure Porsche would give anything away for free, so I am a bit surprised at this one. Surprised, since I can still spin the wheels and slide the car with these too-wide tyres on. Or is this just sour grapes from C2 owners that are losing grip around the bends...

    As you can tell I like my C4S. I've sat and read some absolute twoddle in this thread, mainly from people obsessed about how fast their car could go on a track but whou could never get the extra 0.1s out of their C2 if they tried. Or, snobbish turbo owners who I guess are sick that a cheaper car could be mistaken for theirs.

    Come on... all of these cars are great. There's a place for every C2/C4/C4S/GT2/GT2R/GT3/GT3RS/Turbo/Whatever in the product range (well, apart from targas... only joking ;-) )... because everyone's different. I don't criticise a Boxster because it's cheaper, or a 993 because it's slower or a GT3 for having a pushchair handle on the back.

    Whatever happened to the great Porsche ownership cameraderie that I used to know? I'll get my coat...

    Re: 997 C4S - WIDER by 15mm

    Quote:
    TX 911 said:
    Carlos,

    Let's agree on this:

    On a track such as the 'ring, with similar drivers, the stock C2 and a stock C4S would be neck and neck. As hard as it is for some people to swallow, neither of these cars offers a significant performance advantage over the other.

    Therefore, if track performance is a wash, the C4S MUST have some performance upgrades to offset its 200-lb weight disadvantage.

    As such, whether a C4s is worth the extra money is a personal-opinion decision. For me, better looks (subjective), all leather interior, AWD, planted driving feel = worth the $.

    To summarize, if you want a 911:

    For track only: get a GT3...anything less is settling.

    For mostly street and some track or street only: C2, C4, C4S, GT3, Turbo...take your pick.

    These are different flavors of the same ice cream...all yummy. Choose on taste.



    I agree on all you said TX, except that the 200lbs shouldn't be there in the first place. If the C4S were perf oriented it would be a regular or C2 (or C4) with Porwerkit engine upgrade and M030 suspension upgrade. But I agree on all the rest.

    Re: 997 C4S - WIDER by 15mm

    Carlos,

    Peace. I agree with you...I certainly wouldn't call the C4S more "performance oriented".

    I was just reacting to the labeling of the C4S as a 'poser' car, which I don't believe applies to any of these 911s, and has no place on the forum.

    Re: 997 C4S - WIDER by 15mm

    Can't even be bothered to read all of the above.

    Couldn't we just agree to glory in the fact that we are given the opportunity to enjoy so many variants with quite different characters, performance levels and prices, and all off one platform.

    Just because provision is made for different folks' different strokes, I don't think it gives us the right to refer to those with different tastes, requirements or perspectives as "Posers".





    Let's save that name for Nick instead! He shoots at other hunters instead of at the game, so in my view it's open season where he is concerned.


    PS: Bet I had some of you guys thinking I was mellowing then for a few seconds!

    Re: 997 C4S - WIDER by 15mm

    Quote:
    GaryD (UK) said:
    Oh boy, there's some gross over-simplifications going on here.

    1. The 'S' has not always been about power... look back into a number of 911 generations and you can see that. There was even a 993 C2S which was a C4S without AWD

    2. Obsessing over power-to-weight ratio does not buy you a better (which to most of you = faster in a straight line) car. Aston Martin know this, which is why the DB9 is so damn good. It's about balance, power distribution and overall ability to get from A to B as quickly as possible.

    3. I can tell the difference between a C4S and a Turbo from any angle... can't anyone else here do that? Ok, the turbo has a big plastic fin on the back, a couple of holes in the sides and a protruding plastic ice-scraper at the bottom of the front bumper (sorry turbo owners, only joking!) Again, I prefer the look of my C4S without these go-faster add-ons, but it's a personal thing.

    4. AWD is not a performance benefit... erm, perhaps you should ask why most world rally cars have it then? Simple answer.. cos it allows you to go faster around bends. When your back wheels lose traction in a C2S you can only rely on your natural driving ability or prayer to keep you alive... personally I would rather have the 40% of power in the front wheels pulling me out of the s**t!

    5. Turbo brakes are superfluous... do you track your car? I am not talking from experience here, but I assume that these just have to be better... whether the car has a turbo or not it still needs to get from scary to zero in not a lot of time, and I would rather have these stoppers on my side than the standard brakes. The closest I have come is stampting on the brakes when a dog ran out in front of me, and I nearly threw up as a result of the negative g. I'm sorry, but I think these brakes alone are worth the money.

    6. Wider body=wider track=slightly more balance. No need?

    7. So if I add a sunroof and sat nav and heated seats and other bits and pieces to a C2 that add up to 200lb does that make the C2 unworthy? Hey, I weigh 250lb, I guess I am a severe penalty to my car over someone half my weight.

    8. C4S tyres are too big? Really? I am not sure Porsche would give anything away for free, so I am a bit surprised at this one. Surprised, since I can still spin the wheels and slide the car with these too-wide tyres on. Or is this just sour grapes from C2 owners that are losing grip around the bends...

    As you can tell I like my C4S. I've sat and read some absolute twoddle in this thread, mainly from people obsessed about how fast their car could go on a track but whou could never get the extra 0.1s out of their C2 if they tried. Or, snobbish turbo owners who I guess are sick that a cheaper car could be mistaken for theirs.

    Come on... all of these cars are great. There's a place for every C2/C4/C4S/GT2/GT2R/GT3/GT3RS/Turbo/Whatever in the product range (well, apart from targas... only joking ;-) )... because everyone's different. I don't criticise a Boxster because it's cheaper, or a 993 because it's slower or a GT3 for having a pushchair handle on the back.

    Whatever happened to the great Porsche ownership cameraderie that I used to know? I'll get my coat...



    You seem to have over-simplyfied yourself a bit:

    1. hence the term used was "generally"

    2. power-to-weight is one thing, the C4S mayor disadvantage was overall weight... a different concept that affects handling significantly.

    3. C4S looks better than the 996TT? thats personal so no argueing there, but the problem some people have is that the C4S looks (though very nice) are only skip deep turbo wannabe looks.

    4. AWD, lets not over simplify, rally race cars have nothing in common with the 996, no do their AWD systems, nor do their use and terrain. Bottom line is, a C4 (not C4S) is exactly the same as a C2 but with AWD, and the C2 is ultimately faster, periiod. The AWD has other advantages that are a good trade off for that handling edge of the RWD. Like easier to extract that perfromance in everyday street, greater safety at the limit, greater perfromance on wet, etc. I drive a 996C4 for a reason, for my particular use of the car, the C4 is faster. But Ultimately the RWD is faster, guess why the GT3, GT2, CGT are not AWD? so o AWD is NOT a performance upgrade.

    5. Turbo brakes on a C2 are superfluous, but if you add 200lbs on a C2 then you will need them more, hence one of the reasons the C4S having turbo brakes. But the C2's stock brakes are not one of its weak points and if you add the fact tha the turbo breaks mean more unsprung weight adversely affecting handling, you are not going to notice a performance benefit on the C2. The 200lbs heavier C$S is a different story is not for increasing perfromance its because it needs them

    6. GT3/GT3RS narrow body = best handling 996 models. Again more track is not always better, there is a balance and limit for each car, it depends on the whole pakage and car's specs, the 996C2 doesn't need wide body nor does the GT3 need the CGT's track.

    7. no, just not a performance oriented C2 which is what we are talking about here. But nothing wrong with adding 200lbs of confort options if you want, its your respectable choice.

    8. no comment

    Re: 997 C4S - WIDER by 15mm

    Quote:
    GaryD (UK) said:
    ....or a GT3 for having a pushchair handle on the back.


    So that's what that thing is for!

    Quote:
    GaryD (UK) said:
    Whatever happened to the great Porsche ownership cameraderie that I used to know? I'll get my coat...



    No need. Normal service will be resumed shortly.

    Re: 997 C4S - WIDER by 15mm

    I think the logical question RC is posing is not against awd carreras (as some have reasoned that awd suits them better) but instead a wide body look that is unjustified by the performance of the vehicle. Ultimately though, you certainly can't blame Porsche for ringing out a few more bucks by making Turbo bodes with no fender slits! Im still puzzled by the brake light though, did porsche feel that the car was too boring without it?

    Re: 997 C4S - WIDER by 15mm

    Quote:
    bostonmini said:
    Im still puzzled by the brake light though, did porsche feel that the car was too boring without it?



    It would be a mistake to try to rationalize decisions which are marketing-driven, as opposed to engineering-driven.

    Re: 997 C4S - WIDER by 15mm

    Quote:
    TX 911 said:
    Carlos,

    Peace. I agree with you...I certainly wouldn't call the C4S more "performance oriented".

    I was just reacting to the labeling of the C4S as a 'poser' car, which I don't believe applies to any of these 911s, and has no place on the forum.



    just because its not a performance oriented model doesn't mean its a bad option, just a different package, just like the cabrio, its the least performance oriented and has it place too. I just wanted to point out its value is not in overall performance like the "S" designation or all the Porsche marketing may lead to believe. If you are looking for a performance upgrade over the 996C2 you need to option a C2 so, or go to the GT3, the C4S will get you elsewere. AWD, sport suspension and 18" wheels already stock, different looks- widebody, etc. Not to mention that its the only AWD carrera version available in the US.

    The more model options the better IMO

    Re: 997 C4S - WIDER by 15mm

    Quote:
    GaryD (UK) said:
    ...Whatever happened to the great Porsche ownership cameraderie that I used to know? I'll get my coat...



    I remember when I got my first one almost 30 years ago, we would flash our lights every time we passed each other, no matter which model we were driving. That was cameraderie.

    Re: 997 C4S - WIDER by 15mm

    You do that today in LA and you get shot at.

    Re: 997 C4S - WIDER by 15mm

    Quote:
    SoCal Alan said:
    You do that today in LA and you get shot at.





    But Sportbike riders do, we always salute each other with a V sign with the left hand or a flash of the lights, when ever we cross each other. And if you place your helmet on the ground next to the bike, any biker that passes will surely stop to see if you need help but Porsches don't even flash to each other here

    Re: 997 C4S - WIDER by 15mm

    Yes... that's what I was talking about. I still flash all Porsche owners when there's nobody else around... some stare back in bewilderment, some ignore me, but a few flash me back (which is always nice).

    Carlos... I like your last post. I even think I agree with you too ;-)

    Re: 997 C4S - WIDER by 15mm

    Nice to hear some Porsche owners do flash or salute.

    See! we all DO get along... except with nick/nberry of course

     
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