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    Re: REPORT: Porsche facing dire times

    Super Darius:

    Don't know what's happened,but yesterday and today Porsche' shares fly!

     

    Perhaps, because of these  rumours

    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/038d3b88-60a2-11de-aa12-00144feabdc0,s01=1.html

    http://blogs.thecarconnection.com/marty-blog/1021753_porsche-planning-to-sell-volkswagen-shares-to-qatar

    http://www.reuters.com/article/euDealsNews/idUSTRE55O2UR20090625

     


    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts


    Re: REPORT: Porsche facing dire times

    Wonderbar:

    It is impossible to know all the issues here, but I personally harbor no resentment about Weideking and Porsche's aggressive approach.  He and the Porsche management took a huge--and for a while incredibly successful--risk.  Seems to me that the unexpected world economic crisis sabotaged this strategy, not some decision to pull Porsche out of LeMans, etc. 

    Will Porsche be terminally damaged?  I very seriously doubt it.  Will
    Weideking take the fall?  Probably, but not because of his ineptitude.  Big time corporate managers live by the sword, and die by the sword.

     


     

     
     

    No one ever claimed that Porsche is in the state it is in because of Wendy's decision to pull the plug on the Le Mans (LMP1) project. It was an example of the type of management he practiced and the type of the decisions he made. You can agree or not with them, I don't.

    Just recently Mr. Toyoda (New CEO of Toyota) said that one of the mistakes that Toyota has made in it's recent past (first loss in it's history) is to concentrate too much on profits and not enough on Products.

    This is exactly the point I'm trying to make with Wendy and Porsche. It seems to me that Porsche has been all about profits in the last years and not enough about the product. The company priority should be to cater to its clients, not it's shareholders.

    If you get the products right, the profits will follow.

     

    Re: REPORT: Porsche facing dire times

    Spyderidol:     
    The company priority should be to cater to its clients, not it's shareholders.

    If you get the products right, the profits will follow.

     

     

    Company management's top priority is to maximize shareholder profit. However, that does not mean product neglect. A short term profit move with product neglect is a bad strategy. A long term profit goal reached by marketing excellent products is the best strategy. 

     


    --

    _________________________________________________________ 

    A. Dias --- 997.2S (ordered). Previous cars: Corvette C6,  996 C4.


    Re: REPORT: Porsche facing dire times

    Spyderidol:

    If you get the products right, the profits will follow.

     

    Spyder - never was a truer sentence ever uttered my friend.

    Call it intuition, calculated forecast or whatever, but IMHO the merger between VW & Porsche will transpire and Porsche will revert to fulfilling the role of sportscar specialists.

    This may well relieve them of SUV and saloon car involvement, but as they say, back to basics can't be all wrong.

     


    --

    "Things turn out best for people who make the best of the way things turn out."


    Re: REPORT: Porsche facing dire times

     All seems to be right with the world:

    "In the car business we are one of the very few car makers the world over still writing black figures today... Our operative return on turnover is in the double digit percentage range - a level of profitablity other manufacturers can only dream of. Our brand alone is a precious jewel... believe me, this small manufacturer of exclusive sporting cars is strong - very strong. I promise you that in a symbiosis with the Volkswagen Group Porsche will retain the independence and freedom we need to continue our success in business." - Klaus Berning, PAG's Executive Vice-President for Sales and Marketing.

    Full story HERE.

     


    --

    _________________________________________________________ 

    A. Dias --- 997.2S (ordered). Previous cars: Corvette C6,  996 C4.


    Re: REPORT: Porsche facing dire times

     

     

    It's good to hear.

    Let's hope it's true.


    Re: REPORT: Porsche facing dire times

    BigOnion:

    Passat: Transversal Engine

    A6: Longitudinal Engine

    The 2 vehicles are based on totally different platforms


    Re: REPORT: Porsche facing dire times

    Good news, hopefully.

    I do believe Porsche will remain strong, and will continue to produce fantastic cars.  And, while I appreciate much of what WW has accomplished (and it has been quite impressive), I am bothered by the seemingly aggressive "VW takeover" approach that he and the Porsche management board  planned and attempted to execute.  Maybe I am naive, but such a corporate type takeover just doesn't fit the Porsche family tradition and heritage.  I can understand the need to merge and utilize joint platforms, parts, engineering, etc., but open negotiation and discussion would have suited me better.

    Having said this, I will blame VW or Piech, or whomever, if Porsche's brand and engineering is diminished.  Others may certainly disagree, but to me Porsche--across the board with all its models--is far beyond the competition.  I will trust that whoever comes out on top recognizes the extraordinary value of Porsche.


    Re: REPORT: Porsche facing dire times

    Within 10 years , there will only be 4-6 truly global  car companies in the world and I am sure one of them will be  German - based  that incorporates brands in the current  VW,Porsche,BMW and MBZ portfolios.

     

    I see major consolidation leading to 1-2 large  Chinese-based players, one Japanese, one South Korean , one US  ( Ford )  and the above German.  What's left and useful from GM will be swallowed by one of these . Maybe  another " euro " firm with remnants of FIAT/Opel/Renault/Peugeot/Chrysler, with the smaller Asian/South Asian players brought in  here and there mainly  for their factories close to the huge China market.

    The  electric car companies forming now are all start ups that in their business plans hope to  be bought by these firms for engineering patents .

     

     

     


    Re: REPORT: Porsche facing dire times

    Fair enough.  They still look quite similar. 

    My point was that VW is very aggressive on platform sharng and common parts among different brands.  That's their industrial religion. VW is not nearly as horrible about it as the American makers but they are not shy about it either, and there is platform sharing up and down the product spectrum.  You save a lot of money on tooling, R&D, and industrial development costs sharing platforms but dilute brand uniqueness - this is the clear trade off.  Since this is in their DNA as such, and btw Piech was the guy who pushed this starting in the early 1990s when VW had a near-death financial experience of its own, the risk to Porschephiles that as Porsche falls under their wings they look to do this with the iconic Porsches, or that a lot of the new development becomes the Porsche version of the VW platform of choice.  Ford did it with Jaguar.  GM did it with SAAB.  BMW thankfully backed away from doing it with Rover.    

    For what its worth, there are very few instances of successful "value-enhancing" automotive M&A in the last 25 years.  The pattern is generally one of brand-damage.  Anything the American makers have touched they have damaged substantially.  Daimler's  Chrysler episode cost it immense resources and Chrysler is an eventual chapter 7.  BMW basically killed Rover off after they realized they could not work with it.  Renault-Nissan has worked ok but that was not a full merger.  Almost all successful automotive companies have grown their brands and capabilities organically, which Porsche was doing too - until they got crazy.

    From the sound of things, Qatar may buy the Porsche option book including those dangerous written puts and take some pressure off the funding costs.  There is a ton happening behind the scenes and the quality of disclosure would get these guys arrested in the US so I don't really have a handle on what's going on specificallly - but it does not sound like anyone at Porsche has a credible game plan either other than sticking their hands out.  It appears very much though that there are a variety of shorter-term funding mechanisms that trigger a 3-alarm fire every time they need to be rolled over because the creditors are in no mood to fund these kind of games.   

    The moral of this story and of the credit bubble in general is that buying stuff you can't afford with borrowed money is the fastest way to go from being comfortable or rich to becoming poor or destitute. 


    Re: REPORT: Porsche facing dire times

    bigonion:

    buying stuff you can't afford with borrowed money is the fastest way to go from being comfortable or rich to becoming poor or destitute. 

    This has always been my motto.


    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

    Re: REPORT: Porsche facing dire times

    Interesting post, thanks.  It explains well what a challenge it is to be a successful car manufacturer, and perhaps why Porsche took the risk it did...


    Re: REPORT: Porsche facing dire times

    Relax everyone and enjoy this video - Porsche will never 'die' ....


    Re: REPORT: Porsche facing dire times

    OK, I want this guy's job


    --


    Re: REPORT: Porsche facing dire times

    What is this about?  What ultimatum?

    Press-Information No. 16/09
    27/06/2009
     
     
    Joint Statement by Dr. Wolfgang Porsche, Chairman of the Supervisory Board, and his Deputy Uwe Hück on the Ultimatum by Volkswagen and the State of Lower Saxony:

    “We trust that as in the past we are planning a successful future together with VW to the benefit of both Companies. Hence, we are deeply concerned and irritated by the wording of the ultimatum.

    We will not give in to such pressure or blackmail. Such action does not help anybody. It is detrimental to the entire cause. This is not the way to support and uphold common interests.

    The 21st century is not the time for ultimatums. We wonder what the whole matter is really about and whether the focus is still on our common cause at all.

    A further point: wherever used, whether in private life or in politics, and particularly in business, ultimatums have never served a positive purpose helping to reach the objective aspired.

    We sincerely hope that the perpetrators of the ultimatum, in consideration of our common interests, calm down again and follow up their proposals in internal discussions and not through headlines.

    We are open to such talks at any time.“

    Re: REPORT: Porsche facing dire times

    VW seems to be forcing Porsche's hand. Not pretty:

    http://uk.reuters.com/article/idUKTRE55Q1B220090627

    http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=a0V9E9ra79MM


    --

    _________________________________________________________ 

    A. Dias --- 997.2S (ordered). Previous cars: Corvette C6,  996 C4.


    Re: REPORT: Porsche facing dire times

    Good grief!  All of this is fascinating to follow, but what an embarassing, public mess.  It borders on being tragic (a la the Montagues and Capulets in Romeo and Juliet), with both Porsche and VW damaging themselves terribly.  As a long-time Porsche admirer, I am truly disillusioned. 


    Re: REPORT: Porsche facing dire times

    OUCH!!

    Starting to be a shouting match amongst angry teenage girls.  Somebody is going to get the silent treatment soon.  Probably Porsche, while VW and Qatar decide its fate in a hotel room somewhere...

    Fog of non-disclosure makes any serious analysis impossible, but if Porsche has near-term funding rollover issues, which it probably does, they are the beggar and not the chooser.  VW has managed to play this whole thing out rather well by just playing hard to get.  Smiley 


    Re: REPORT: Porsche facing dire times

    Porsche's intersting reply to VW's ultimatum:

    Joint Statement by Dr. Wolfgang Porsche, Chairman of the Supervisory Board, and his Deputy Uwe Hück on the Ultimatum by Volkswagen and the State of Lower SaxonyThe 21st century is not the time for ultimatums

     

    “We trust that as in the past we are planning a successful future together with VW to the benefit of both Companies. Hence, we are deeply concerned and irritated by the wording of the ultimatum.

    We will not give in to such pressure or blackmail. Such action does not help anybody. It is detrimental to the entire cause. This is not the way to support and uphold common interests.

    The 21st century is not the time for ultimatums. We wonder what the whole matter is really about and whether the focus is still on our common cause at all.

    A further point: wherever used, whether in private life or in politics, and particularly in business, ultimatums have never served a positive purpose helping to reach the objective aspired.

    We sincerely hope that the perpetrators of the ultimatum, in consideration of our common interests, calm down again and follow up their proposals in internal discussions and not through headlines.

    We are open to such talks at any time.“

    6/27/2009

     


    Re: REPORT: Porsche facing dire times

    I think this is a repost--see my post on this thread above. 

    As these folks apparently have resorted to name calling in public, there will surely be more statements and ultimatums.  Man do these combatants hate each other...


    Re: REPORT: Porsche facing dire times

     

     

    Can't see that it is a repost, but if it is, I apologize.

    This merger looks as it is destined to be a fiasco (at least for Porsche) from the start.


    Re: REPORT: Porsche facing dire times

    Spyderidol:

     

     

    Can't see that it is a repost, but if it is, I apologize.

    This merger looks as it is destined to be a fiasco (at least for Porsche) from the start.

    The crux of the matter is that if Porsche had any other options they would have exercised them by now.

    Moreover, from the latest reports Qatar is not interested merely to save Porsche but to have a stake in a new joint company.

     


    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

    Re: REPORT: Porsche facing dire times

    No apologies necessary.  My post of june 27 was in a different format, so it was easy to overlook.  For good follow up info, see ADias post which immediately followed mine.  Any apologies should come from these two warring factions...


    Re: REPORT: Porsche facing dire times

    I love this picture from Autoblog.com

    vw_porsche_ultima.jpg


    Re: REPORT: Porsche facing dire times

     

    Porsche has options to acquire an additional 20% stake in Volkswagen, the problem is: They don't have the money to exercise them !!! They also don't want to loose them either.


    Re: REPORT: Porsche facing dire times

    Not sure what this means, but it could not be good news for Porsche..

     

    Press-Information No. 17/09
    30/06/2009
     
     
    Alternative Financing Possibilities Being Considered

    Porsche not Applying to KfW for a New Loan

    Stuttgart. Porsche Automobil Holding SE, Stuttgart, has been denied a loan for Euro 1.75 billion from the German Kreditanstalt für Wiederaufbau (KfW), following the Company’s application to such effect. In its letter the KfW states that Porsche “may naturally contact us again at any time with a further application for a loan.” In the interest of the Company’s credibility, Porsche will however not resort to this offer.

    Porsche has always stated that the loan was to be an operating loan not in any way burdening the German taxpayer. According to the application, the KfW would have joined the syndicated credit now endorsed by 16 banks, which is subject to the usual market interest rates and is backed by Volkswagen shares as collateral.

    Following this decision Porsche will start talks for alternative financing possibilities.


    Re: REPORT: Porsche facing dire times

    This was already known (that KfW had rejected Porsche's application).

    I suspect that it is only now being published by Porsche PR because they have only recently received official confirmation.

    I also suspect that talks for "alternative financing possibilities" have been going on for some time.

     


    Re: REPORT: Porsche facing dire times

    Wonderbar:

    Not sure what this means, but it could not be good news for Porsche..

     

    Press-Information No. 17/09
    30/06/2009
     
     
    Alternative Financing Possibilities Being Considered

    Porsche not Applying to KfW for a New Loan

    Stuttgart. Porsche Automobil Holding SE, Stuttgart, has been denied a loan for Euro 1.75 billion from the German Kreditanstalt für Wiederaufbau (KfW), following the Company’s application to such effect. In its letter the KfW states that Porsche “may naturally contact us again at any time with a further application for a loan.” In the interest of the Company’s credibility, Porsche will however not resort to this offer.

    Porsche has always stated that the loan was to be an operating loan not in any way burdening the German taxpayer. According to the application, the KfW would have joined the syndicated credit now endorsed by 16 banks, which is subject to the usual market interest rates and is backed by Volkswagen shares as collateral.

    Following this decision Porsche will start talks for alternative financing possibilities.

    KfW gives loans to companies directly hit by the recession. Porsche's problems may have been compounded by the recession but their real cause was the genious moves of Wiedeking and Financial Director Holger Haerter.


    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

    Re: REPORT: Porsche facing dire times

    reginos:
    Wonderbar:

    Not sure what this means, but it could not be good news for Porsche..

     

    Press-Information No. 17/09
    30/06/2009
     
     
    Alternative Financing Possibilities Being Considered

    Porsche not Applying to KfW for a New Loan

    Stuttgart. Porsche Automobil Holding SE, Stuttgart, has been denied a loan for Euro 1.75 billion from the German Kreditanstalt für Wiederaufbau (KfW), following the Company’s application to such effect. In its letter the KfW states that Porsche “may naturally contact us again at any time with a further application for a loan.” In the interest of the Company’s credibility, Porsche will however not resort to this offer.

    Porsche has always stated that the loan was to be an operating loan not in any way burdening the German taxpayer. According to the application, the KfW would have joined the syndicated credit now endorsed by 16 banks, which is subject to the usual market interest rates and is backed by Volkswagen shares as collateral.

    Following this decision Porsche will start talks for alternative financing possibilities.

    KfW gives loans to companies directly hit by the recession. Porsche's problems may have been compounded by the recession but their real cause was the genious moves of Wiedeking and Financial Director Holger Haerter.

    I think Harter is not a donkey now....  until 2008 he was a genius... and he achieved very good results in the past years


    --
    Dedi La vita è troppo corta per non guidare italiano.....

    Re: REPORT: Porsche facing dire times

    andrea:
    reginos:
    Wonderbar:

    Not sure what this means, but it could not be good news for Porsche..

     

    Press-Information No. 17/09
    30/06/2009
     
     
    Alternative Financing Possibilities Being Considered

    Porsche not Applying to KfW for a New Loan

    Stuttgart. Porsche Automobil Holding SE, Stuttgart, has been denied a loan for Euro 1.75 billion from the German Kreditanstalt für Wiederaufbau (KfW), following the Company’s application to such effect. In its letter the KfW states that Porsche “may naturally contact us again at any time with a further application for a loan.” In the interest of the Company’s credibility, Porsche will however not resort to this offer.

    Porsche has always stated that the loan was to be an operating loan not in any way burdening the German taxpayer. According to the application, the KfW would have joined the syndicated credit now endorsed by 16 banks, which is subject to the usual market interest rates and is backed by Volkswagen shares as collateral.

    Following this decision Porsche will start talks for alternative financing possibilities.

    KfW gives loans to companies directly hit by the recession. Porsche's problems may have been compounded by the recession but their real cause was the genious moves of Wiedeking and Financial Director Holger Haerter.

    I think Harter is not a donkey now....  until 2008 he was a genius... and he achieved very good results in the past years

    He played a very risky game and lost and put his company in jeopardy.

    He may be an accomplished fianancial man but everything is judged by the end result.


    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

     
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