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    997 system fault (Part 2)

    Hi friends,

    i just wanted to give you all an update on the repair situation of my car. after the last repair attempt, where front module & latch assembly was replaces, the car was doing fine until this morning.

    now all the system faults are back and i am once again, in a bad mood. immediately i sent off the letter to PCNA which is required my the lemmon law, notifying them that i give them one last chance to repair the car.

    i just wanted to keep you all in the loop. it;s definitely related to washing the car, as it was fine until i washed it yesterday.



    -r

    Re: 997 system fault (Part 2)

    Very unfortunate. I feel your pain.

    Re: 997 system fault (Part 2)

    Sorry to hear of your mis-fortune.

    After following the Skip in Boulder thread and yours I was at my dealers when they were getting ready to deliver a new 997 and guess what appeared "SYSTEM FAULT" The car was taken in to the service bay and connected up to the PIWIS tester, the fault codes that came up were the front control module, as well as the hood latch, On the hood latch fault there was also a reference to a fault to ground from terminal... Falts were reset after two attempts and the car was sent away. It's only a matter of time before it reapears.

    A day or so later I had the opportunity to speak with the regional PCNA rep about the System fault problem that I've read about as well had witnessed. He was familliar with Skips experience, and apparently it is a known problem thathas been poping up here and there, they are addressing it, and in fact has somthing to do with the hood latch grounding.

    Since there is no TSB yet the techs really have no clue as to what to do, and in many cases just clear the fault memory in the hopes it won't re-appear.

    Make sure that the dealer gets the PCNA field manager involved!!!
    Once the Field Manager receives a case, they must update the progress of the case in ActionWare throughout the process. This enables the appropriate PCNA personnel to track a case until resolution is made. On every OPEN case, the Field Manager must verify the customer's satisfaction status directly with the customer after all appropriate solutions have been exercised
    PCNA is aware of this issue
    There will be an official fix in the near future!


    Re: 997 system fault (Part 2)

    Quote:
    Trundle996 said:
    Once the Field Manager receives a case, they must update the progress of the case in ActionWare throughout the process. This enables the appropriate PCNA personnel to track a case until resolution is made. On every OPEN case, the Field Manager must verify the customer's satisfaction status directly with the customer after all appropriate solutions have been exercised
    PCNA is aware of this issue
    There will be an official fix in the near future!




    Thanks for this info. It gives us an idea of how PNA handles things. It's too bad that this bad PR doesn't get addressed on here by them. PNA should think about addressing it and dousing the flames a bit.
    FYI, mine's been running great

    Re: 997 system fault (Part 2)

    the regional rep was involved from the beginning. i have been talking to him a lot. however, having worked in vehicle R&D, i just don't get the feeling that they are ontop of this.

    for example, one of the explanations was that "there was a nut on the common ground missing". i just happend to have closeup pictures of this termnial before they worked on it and the nut was on - so that story was BS.

    another story was that they replaced the front control module with a newer revision, but in fact it was a older revision - the lot date was 2 months earlier!

    i believed from the beginning that there is some electro/mechanical issue but the actual problem lies in the the firmware of one or more modules. they are all revision 1.0 so there is just no way they can be mature. all repair efforts have been based on the messages from the modules, but i just have a gut feeling that the firmware messages are missleading.

    the CAN bust is a tricky thing and the PIWIS isn't areally a bus analyser but just a protocoll hub. i seriously think that they will never find the issue untill they take the majority of the modules out and do a sanity check on the harness first.

    anyways, all this will hopefully not be done with me as the owner.

    ADVICE to all of you early 997 owners: Don't wash that piece of crap!

    Re: 997 system fault (Part 2)

    Renee, I washed my 997 several times, even with high pressure. No problems whatsoever. My dealer washes all his 997 in his car wash installation, no problems whatsoever so far. I really think that your car is a lemon, it happens and I know this explenation doesn't help you much.

    If I were you, I wouldn't accept any further tries to fix the problem, get a new car. The 997 Carrera S is great, otherwise I wouldn't own one but the first cars out of a new model always show problems, unfortunately.

    I wish you good luck and I hope you stay with us. Talk to your dealer and the PCNA rep and tell them what you want.

    Re: 997 system fault (Part 2)

    Hey Ossi,

    I did not know that you posted on the Flat-6 board, but I did read the "Skip & Ossi Show". I was wondering what ever happened to you guys after RC closed the board. I have posted various service, dealer, mechanical, and corporate culture issues, on flat-6's 997 problems, and here on the "A Complete Engine Replacement at 2400 miles", "Do I have the honor to have the 1st 997s with a blown engine", and "Interesting 997 disclaimer", amongst others.

    It sounds to me that one of the relays/modules are undersized or that the firm or software is recieving 2 signals from the hardware that add up to an erroneous fault code, when there may truely be nothing wrong. But then again, the harness could have broken wires from the factory inside, or maybe the wires are bridging near the connectors, if they are close and both on.

    It can't be just the washing, since I recall that you said that it happened to you or Skip, and the car was not washed recently. If you look in the owners manual, I do recall it saying somewhere that you can "only" wash the vehicle with de-natured spring water from the Swiss-Alps. Sounds like you voided your warranty.

    In conclusion, I have the first 997S in the world with a blown engine, and you have the world's first lemon. Oh, the taste is bitter sweet; can I be too far behind.

    jb

    Re: 997 system fault (Part 2)

    Quote:
    RC said:
    If I were you, I wouldn't accept any further tries to fix the problem, get a new car.



    unfortunately, the california lemon law requires at least 4 attempts to fix the same problme, so i have to go thru one more. also, the lemon law reqires that within the 4 repair attempts, i need to notify the manufacturer in writing that i grant them one last chance to fix the car. i fedexed that letter yesterday.

    my intent is to lemmon the car, i hope i can get them to buy it back. unfortunatly, my trust in prorsche is broken, so i will not get another porsche, sorry.

    skip: what is the status on your lemmon process? any updates?

    this board is great and i will continue reading it, even without owning one. after all, stories about lemon cars are much more fund when it isn't my own car that's the lemon

    -r

    Wow, How Depressing It Is.

    After reading reading the "Skip" board on Rennlist, (997S in the shop for the 7th time in 3 months) it seems fitting that no one from Porsche has called in over a week. I propose a challenge. The first one between you, Skip, and I that get's a new car or the "Lemon" wins. The losers each need to send the winner a Ponderosa Lemon.

    Lemonade anyone.

    How sweet it is.

    jb

    Re: Update

    now it's getting sad:

    on monday, i sent a "fedex verified letter" to PCNA in atlanta, informing them that i grant them one last chance for repair of the troubled module(s) (this formal letter is required by the CA lemon law).

    today, i checked the fedex tracking # and read this:

    ###################################
    Dec 15, 2004 10:25 AM
    Delivered - No signature - release waiver on file
    ###################################

    now this is interesting. i send letters via fedex all the time (business) and i always get a signature for delivery, at least a name. in this case, porsche does seem to be able to get these delivered without giving a signature.

    does anyone here have info on how one would send a verified letter so that one can optain a delivery confirmation with a signature or at least a name?

    thanks,
    -r

    Re: Update

    Send it by certified mail with return receipt and restricted delivery.

    Certified Mail provides proof of mailing and delivery of mail. The mail carrier must obtain a signature from the recipient of your package or flat, and this record of delivery is filed at the recipient's post office.

    Return Receipt is the sender's proof of delivery. The Return Receipt shows who signed for an item and the date that it was delivered. Return Receipt also provides the recipient's actual delivery address if it differs from the address you used. After the recipient has signed for the package or flat, proof of delivery is mailed to you.

    Restricted Delivery service permits a mailer to direct delivery only to the addressee or addressee's authorized agent. The addressee must be an individual (or natural person) specified by name.

    It would not hurt to send by fax also. Do this at Kinkos which will give you undisputed verfication that they received it.

    Re: 997 system fault (Part 2)

    Quote:
    jboyko said:
    I was wondering what ever happened to you guys after RC closed the board. I have posted various service, dealer, mechanical, and corporate culture issues, on flat-6's 997 problems, and here on the "A Complete Engine Replacement at 2400 miles", "Do I have the honor to have the 1st 997s with a blown engine", and "Interesting 997 disclaimer", amongst others.




    1. I didn't close the board, what are you talking about? If you mean closing the thread, I closed it because there were too many posts (dozends of them) and I mentioned that everybody can re-open the thread with the same title adding "part 2" to the new thread title.

    2. I know that some of you guys prefer other forums for whining about your problems (and you're right to do that, even if the style is sometimes questionable, especially if the problems just occured and PCNA didn't have the chance yet to look into that specific problem) but trust me if I tell you that you have the biggest chance to get a fix if you post your problems here because this forum is monitored by PAG on a regular basis, even if this isn't something official. But it is your time, you can post to half the internet if you think it helps.

    BTW: the VIN you gave me didn't make much sense (you got some letters and numbers wrong) but we were able to track it down.

    Re: Update

    Quote:
    ossi said:
    ...now this is interesting. i send letters via fedex all the time (business) and i always get a signature for delivery, at least a name. in this case, porsche does seem to be able to get these delivered without giving a signature...

    does anyone here have info on how one would send a verified letter so that one can optain a delivery confirmation with a signature or at least a name?

    thanks,
    -r


    You can also send it by FedEx again and check the Signature required box.

    (U.S. Domestic Shipping Only) Select this box to indicate that you require the FedEx courier to obtain a signature (either from the person named on the package or someone else at the address) when delivering a package. A signed delivery notice by the recipient is not considered an acceptable signature. A fee does not apply.

    Re: Update

    Ossi do not use Fedex to contact Porsche. Porsche has an arrangement with Fedex that tells them to leave the mail at the door without having to sign for it. I found this out yesterday after calling Fedex. My Letter to them required them to sign for it, but because of Porsche's arrangement with Fedex it was left at the door. Maybe your letter blew away along with mine, while it was outside the door. You need to use USPS (not UPS) Priority Mail, Certified Mail, Return Receipt Requested. All that for one letter. USPS claims that it will take 1 - 3 days to get there. It probably will take 3 days from Cali, so send it out today, with the attention of "Customer Commitment Paralegal" If you do it today, Both of our letters will hit their door at the same time. I wonder how Skip is doing.

    RC, I know what you said about the first Skip & Ossi board (Thread). Your last words told them to open a new board (thread). BUT, RC YOU DID DELETE THE WHOLE "Complete Engine replacement @ 2400 Miles!" THREAD. You should Put the entire thread back with a first line editorial post, telling any reader that "ckh"'s post was bogus, while the rest are valid issues. My postings told of serious dealer and PCNA customer service issues, and serious mechanical problems in a vehicle that I really do like.

    If you want people to post and post responsibly, you should put that thread back.

    Today is the 16th straight day out of service, plus 2 from the month before. My letter goes out on the 20th. They should replace this vehicle before it becomes an official lemon. At that time I won't want another Porshe, and I'll just get another CL500.

    jb

    Re: Update

    Quote:
    jboyko said:
    Ossi do not use Fedex to contact Porsche. Porsche has an arrangement with Fedex that tells them to leave the mail at the door without having to sign for it. I found this out yesterday after calling Fedex. My Letter to them required them to sign for it, but because of Porsche's arrangement with Fedex it was left at the door...



    jb,

    See my post from above. You can select signature required for delivery from FedEx. It does not cost for that feature. This will overide an release that Porsche may have.

    Re: Update

    VT,

    Fedex does have a "Signature Proof of Delivery (SPOD) feature, but Fedex does note that under the "Status exception code" you will not get "a signature because we had prior approval from the sender or recipient to do so". This approval, is the case with Porsche. Another option from Fedex will require a signature to be obtained, but if the recipient (Porsche) does not want to sign for it, Fedex will try 2 more times to get a signature, then charge you to send it back. The Porsche address is a sorting facility, and they probably are told to only sign for certified US Postal mail.

    jb

    Re: Update

    The fact that the letter states "delivered" should be good enough (most companies have a release, meaning they're not going to sign for each piece of mail that they receive from Fed Ex or others. In the same breath, I would also send the letter through the US Postal Service, certified and with signature required upon delivery.

    Re: Update

    Not being able to speak for Ossi, I believe that he also has the impression that our Fedex letters did not reach the intended individual (Peter). But, now resides on the bottom of someone's bird cage.

    I tell you Swiss, 17 days out of service has really changed my feelings towards Porsche. Although, I did have a brief feeling of excitment, thinking that I may be driving the Porsche again, while I was driving home last night in the rental car. The Porsche really made me feel good, eventhough it was a $30,000 down-grade from the 03 CL500 that I drove before.

    jb

    Re: Update

    Then I think if you send it FedEx, certified mail and regular mail with proof of mailing, that would be sufficient with any judge that you contacted PCNA if it ever got to that level.

    I would also then find out who their agent of service is and send it to them for good measure. Their agent of service should be someone local in your state.

    Their agent in California is:
    CT Corporation System
    818 West Seventh Street
    Los Angeles, CA 90017

    Re: Update

    The most reliable method of making sure the president gets the letter is to tie it to a brick and throw it through his office window. (Pardon my attempt at humor.)

    Re: Update

    After 3 weeks I finally came home last night to find a UPS "signature required" notice on the door. I'm hoping to pick it up on Monday at the UPS facility, and it looks like it is from PCNA in Atlanta, although there are no other details about the sender.

    I'm hoping that the next steps won't take so long and that I can drop off the car at the dealer as soon as possible. The car hasn't moved from the spot in the garage since it broke again 3 weeks ago, and the next drive in it will be my last. I am hoping to start off 2005 997-free, and will buy a used Porsche (or a different make entirely) to try to put this miserable car ownership experience behind me.

    another Update

    Friends,

    after a week of silence from PCNA, and me leaving countless voicemails on "certain peoples" message mashines, i got a call from someone at PCNA today.

    the latest "story" is that there is one or more "ground" issues. they suspect that some of the ground poles are not properly de-galvanized (removing the zinc after the body is galvanized) therefore making "unreliable" ground contact, causing one or more CAN modules to act up.

    so, the next repair attempt will remove both seats and part of the dashboard to "treat" these ground poles. unfortunately, they still have some parts on backorder from germany and therefore, the repairs will not be done until 1/5/05.

    the biggest concern i have now is the fact that they have to remove some pretty serious parts, including the seats and dash from the car to get to these places. i am not really hot on having a 100k car disassembled.

    well, as this will be 4th repair attempt, which is needed for the CA lemon process, i guess i don't have a choice.

    i just wanted to give all of you who are concerned, an update on the situation.

    -r

    ps: skip, whatever happend to you?

    Re: another Update

    Quote:
    ossi said:
    ...the latest "story" is that there is one or more "ground" issues. they suspect that some of the ground poles are not properly de-galvanized (removing the zinc after the body is galvanized) therefore making "unreliable" ground contact, causing one or more CAN modules to act up....




    German cars are notorious for their ground problems. All the electrical problems I had with my first two Porsches and VWs were always related to the way they ground their circuits, different from American cars.

    Re: another Update

    Ossi, thanks for the update. It is greatly appreciated. I can understand your concern about having your car dismantled. As you say, you don't have much choice at this point.

    Seems like a problem that should not have been allowed to happen, if the grounding issues are the cause of the faults. It does sound like something is causing the microprocessors to produce very odd signals. I gather the car is driveable, albeit unsettling with the warnings blazing. Is this correct?

    I for one will be very much interested in the result of this exercise. I hope it is successful in resolving the matter by eliminating the problems in your car. If the result is positive, I think they owe you more than a simple apology for your trouble and anguish.

    I now have about 1,200 miles on my 997S. I am gaining confidence in my car with each mile. I hope that it is not misplaced.

    Re: another Update

    Looks like you are going to have to just go through the various steps until problems are resolved. Give this a shot then on to lemonade if it doesn't work. Be patient and good luck with it.

    Re: another Update

    Hey Ossi,

    Good luck with the repair !

    Who(which dealer) will be doing it ? Bev Hills or Rusnaks ?


    Cheers !

    Ian

    Re: 997 system fault (Part 2)

    ossi

    Has the "ground pole treatment" been accomplished on your 997S? If so, what was the result?

    Re: another Update

    Quote:
    vtrader said:
    German cars are notorious for their ground problems. All the electrical problems I had with my first two Porsches and VWs were always related to the way they ground their circuits, different from American cars.



    This was at a painful extreme with the 928. Porsche made the aluminum chassis the negative return for almost every circuit in the car. The connection to the chassis was via "buttons" that connected to the wiring. Dis-similar metal situations (even though buffered) provide all sorts of "high-resistance energy traps" unpredictably distributed throughout the car after a few seasons of chassis flexing take their toll.

    Re: 997 system fault (Part 2)

    took the car to the dealer this morning (scheduled appointment). was notified that they have to remove the entire dash (among a list of other things), to treat all groundpoles on the cross member underneath the dash. some of the instructions from PCNA read: "...grind away paint and plating on poles..." are you kidding me? i took the car with me again, since i believe this is major BS.

    i was able to trigger the faults by watering the car, how can this have anything to do with the ground poles underneath the dash?

    i get the feeling PCNA is using my car as guinea pig to try on thing after the other.

    is anyone on this board who has a 997 who underwent the "ground pole treatment" including removing the dash? did it fix the system faults?

    i decided to take a step back for now and drive the car as is. i will let some time pass before i let them try to fix it again, hopefully they can learn how to fix it on another car...

    this continiues to be the worst ownership experience i ever had.

    -r

    Re: 997 system fault (Part 2)

    Aren't you eligible to pursue the lemon law by now? Get rid of it!

     
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