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    Re: 991 spyshots thread (continued) (for UNRELEASED models only) Thread Closed

    bluelines:
    reginos:

    I am generally happy with what Porsche styling are doing with the 911 , but I find their designs somewhat very near their expiry dates when they come out. They don't look very fresh.

    For example when the 997.1 came out I felt that this should have been the mid-90s replacement for the 993. The 991 although a very pleasant, clean and balanced design, looks to me now as a perfect mid-00s replacement for the first water cooled 911, but not very cutting edge to carry the model until 2009-10.

    With the Boxster/Cayman Porsche managed to inject something "extra" to the design via the sculptured doors and even the unique feature of the  rear spoiler/lights differentiates it.

    On the flip side... while the 911 might not be on the edge of the design trends, it also does not show its age as many other cars. An extravagant Ferrari or Lambo looks great for a few years, then it looks hopelessly outdated on the verge to vulgar and kitsch. 

    Compare the 993 to a 90's Ferrari or Lambo Smiley

    The Lamborghinis and Ferraris of that time period were kitschy when they were new.


    Re: 991 spyshots thread (continued) (for UNRELEASED models only) Thread Closed

    The fact that the 991 gets really serious competitors in it's segment  (Merc GT, McLaren P13) will really help us, the customers. The 992 will not be more or less alone in its segment like the current 991 is. Porsche has to react. Of course we cannot expect lowered prices, instead we will hopefully get more for the money. My 992 carrera wishlist:

    • More torque (will come for sure with the new turbo engines)
    • more power (S should have 450hp)
    • more exterior colors
    • more interior colors
    • A unique interior look, not the same like in in any base Macan/Boxster
    • no growth in size!

     

     


    --

    Note to self: I DO NOT need a Turbo. 


    Re: 991 spyshots thread (continued) (for UNRELEASED models only) Thread Closed

    bluelines:
    reginos:

    I am generally happy with what Porsche styling are doing with the 911 , but I find their designs somewhat very near their expiry dates when they come out. They don't look very fresh.

    For example when the 997.1 came out I felt that this should have been the mid-90s replacement for the 993. The 991 although a very pleasant, clean and balanced design, looks to me now as a perfect mid-00s replacement for the first water cooled 911, but not very cutting edge to carry the model until 2009-10.

    With the Boxster/Cayman Porsche managed to inject something "extra" to the design via the sculptured doors and even the unique feature of the  rear spoiler/lights differentiates it.

    On the flip side... while the 911 might not be on the edge of the design trends, it also does not show its age as many other cars. An extravagant Ferrari or Lambo looks great for a few years, then it looks hopelessly outdated on the verge to vulgar and kitsch. 

    Compare the 993 to a 90's Ferrari or Lambo Smiley

    so, ok,  i compare to an F40, F50, enzo, murcielago. what do you mean by vulgar? kitsch??????? those are real icons. 911 does not show its age?????? i like tradition and heritage in styling but porsche's conservative approach is getting too much. the non-initiated cannot tell a 991 apart from a 993. whenever porsche designers try to get daring and think of more radical changes some ultra-conservatives come out and shout 'don't dare to change the squashed beetle look, it is our genes!!!'

    i am a big fan of porsche engineering, not a fan of porsche design and even less so of porsche marketing. but to each its own, many wanted the beetle look and apparently it will be cemented into eternity unless buyer's mentality changes - which i do not see when reading this forum.


    Re: 991 spyshots thread (continued) (for UNRELEASED models only) Thread Closed

    Who knows what restrictions Porsche design work under. Though their skills and achievements are highlighted in projects such as the Carrera GT and 918 Spyder. These are two of the greatest designs to date. 


    Re: 991 spyshots thread (continued) (for UNRELEASED models only) Thread Closed

    boytronic:

    Who knows what restrictions Porsche design work under. Though their skills and achievements are highlighted in projects such as the Carrera GT and 918 Spyder. These are two of the greatest designs to date. 

    i like the carrera GT and the 918 a lot. maybe a bit too busy but exciting. we all know the restrictions of the 911 designers: it is the 911 customers.


    Re: 991 spyshots thread (continued) (for UNRELEASED models only) Thread Closed

    andyFE:
    bluelines:
    reginos:

    I am generally happy with what Porsche styling are doing with the 911 , but I find their designs somewhat very near their expiry dates when they come out. They don't look very fresh.

    For example when the 997.1 came out I felt that this should have been the mid-90s replacement for the 993. The 991 although a very pleasant, clean and balanced design, looks to me now as a perfect mid-00s replacement for the first water cooled 911, but not very cutting edge to carry the model until 2009-10.

    With the Boxster/Cayman Porsche managed to inject something "extra" to the design via the sculptured doors and even the unique feature of the  rear spoiler/lights differentiates it.

    On the flip side... while the 911 might not be on the edge of the design trends, it also does not show its age as many other cars. An extravagant Ferrari or Lambo looks great for a few years, then it looks hopelessly outdated on the verge to vulgar and kitsch. 

    Compare the 993 to a 90's Ferrari or Lambo Smiley

    so, ok,  i compare to an F40, F50, enzo, murcielago. what do you mean by vulgar? kitsch??????? those are real icons. 911 does not show its age?????? i like tradition and heritage in styling but porsche's conservative approach is getting too much. the non-initiated cannot tell a 991 apart from a 993. whenever porsche designers try to get daring and think of more radical changes some ultra-conservatives come out and shout 'don't dare to change the squashed beetle look, it is our genes!!!'

    i am a big fan of porsche engineering, not a fan of porsche design and even less so of porsche marketing. but to each its own, many wanted the beetle look and apparently it will be cemented into eternity unless buyer's mentality changes - which i do not see when reading this forum.

    There, you just came to the conclusion, that Porsche did everything right with their design : the fan base is happy Smiley


    --

    Porsche 911 GT3 - Guards Red 997 MKII Clubsport


    Re: 991 spyshots thread (continued) (for UNRELEASED models only) Thread Closed

    andyFE:
    boytronic:

    Who knows what restrictions Porsche design work under. Though their skills and achievements are highlighted in projects such as the Carrera GT and 918 Spyder. These are two of the greatest designs to date. 

    i like the carrera GT and the 918 a lot. maybe a bit too busy but exciting. we all know the restrictions of the 911 designers: it is the 911 customers.

    it is the paradigm of the 911 model range - keep the iconic silhouette the same ...it is what the customer expects ...it has worked for 50 yrs 

    different but same edict for mid engined V8 Ferraris since the 70s ...change the silhouette only after the  facelift version ..it is what the customer expects ...it has worked for 40 yrs


    Re: 991 spyshots thread (continued) (for UNRELEASED models only) Thread Closed

    MKW:
    andyFE:
    boytronic:

    Who knows what restrictions Porsche design work under. Though their skills and achievements are highlighted in projects such as the Carrera GT and 918 Spyder. These are two of the greatest designs to date. 

    i like the carrera GT and the 918 a lot. maybe a bit too busy but exciting. we all know the restrictions of the 911 designers: it is the 911 customers.

    it is the paradigm of the 911 model range - keep the iconic silhouette the same ...it is what the customer expects ...it has worked for 50 yrs 

    different but same edict for mid engined V8 Ferraris since the 70s ...change the silhouette only after the  facelift version ..it is what the customer expects ...it has worked for 40 yrs

    i disagree. F430 to F458 was almost a change of paradigm. it worked for ferrari so why should it not work for porsche? 

     


    Re: 991 spyshots thread (continued) (for UNRELEASED models only) Thread Closed

    If you look at a 458, everybody, including people that know nothing about cars, know it's a Ferrari... Everybody, including people that know nothing about cars, know it's a Porsche when they look at a 911.

    That's the appeal of both cars. That one doesn't like the shape of a car, doesn't mean the brand is doing something wrong. I don't like the 458's look... I do love that 991's look. Doesn't make either car better or worse. It's just a matter of taste. That's why people have different tastes and do different brands apeal to different people. Porsche's customers want the car to look like it does for 50 years. Ferrari's customers want the car to look flashy, like a real Ferrari. Aston Martins look the same for the last 20 years, because their customers like that....

    i simply cannot see what's wrong with that. 


    --

    Suzy

    2013 Porsche Boxster S (MT) | Basaltblack metallic
    2012 Audi SQ5 TDI | Lavagrey metallic
     


    Re: 991 spyshots thread (continued) (for UNRELEASED models only) Thread Closed

    When the 964 came out it looked like a 911, no doubt about that, but it was a huge styling step over the previous 3.2 model.

    More so with the 993 which was very fresh and striking in 1993 compared to the predecessor and also compared to rivals.

    Since the 996, Porsche is just really "facelifting" the 911 rather than daring to introduce new up-to-date elements into the design. No one denies the appeal of the iconic shape but modernizing the look won't damage the underlying style or make the car too flashy.  Porsche designers should imitate the Carrera 3.2-964-993 evolution philosophy in their styling direction.

    Porsche have done exactly that with the Boxster/Cayman and it works very well.


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: 991 spyshots thread (continued) (for UNRELEASED models only) Thread Closed

    reginos:

    ... Since the 996, Porsche is just really "facelifting" the 911 rather than daring to introduce new up-to-date elements into the design. No one denies the appeal of the iconic shape but modernizing the look won't damage the underlying style or make the car too flashy.  Porsche designers should imitate the Carrera 3.2-964-993 evolution philosophy in their styling direction. ...

    What do you think they should change in the design? What "up-to-date elements" should they introduce, how should the look be modernized? Or, in other words, what's wrong with the design now that needs to be changed?


    Re: 991 spyshots thread (continued) (for UNRELEASED models only) Thread Closed

    apias:
    reginos:

    ... Since the 996, Porsche is just really "facelifting" the 911 rather than daring to introduce new up-to-date elements into the design. No one denies the appeal of the iconic shape but modernizing the look won't damage the underlying style or make the car too flashy.  Porsche designers should imitate the Carrera 3.2-964-993 evolution philosophy in their styling direction. ...

    What do you think they should change in the design? What "up-to-date elements" should they introduce, how should the look be modernized? Or, in other words, what's wrong with the design now that needs to be changed?

    I am not a designer so I wouldn't know how to implement it . But when I see something special I will understand it. Like when I saw the 993 for the first time. The basic car was the same using the bodyshell architecture, roof and doors of the previous 20 years,  but the transition was striking and fresh. The 911 needs more design  imagination IMO.


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: 991 spyshots thread (continued) (for UNRELEASED models only) Thread Closed

    reginos:

    When the 964 came out it looked like a 911, no doubt about that, but it was a huge styling step over the previous 3.2 model.

    More so with the 993 which was very fresh and striking in 1993 compared to the predecessor and also compared to rivals.

    Since the 996, Porsche is just really "facelifting" the 911 rather than daring to introduce new up-to-date elements into the design. No one denies the appeal of the iconic shape but modernizing the look won't damage the underlying style or make the car too flashy.  Porsche designers should imitate the Carrera 3.2-964-993 evolution philosophy in their styling direction.

    Porsche have done exactly that with the Boxster/Cayman and it works very well.


    --

    "Form follows function"

    Yet you can bolt 964 bumpers etc on a 80's 911 and they fit. Same for most body parts from 1969 when they lengthened the chassis though to the end of the 964... The changes off the 993-996-997-991 are all bigger than you actually think.


    --

    Past-President, Porsche Club of America - Upper Canada Region


    Re: 991 spyshots thread (continued) (for UNRELEASED models only) Thread Closed

    I am a bit with Reginos here, instinctively feeling that Porsche could be somewhat more imaginative in its execution of the 911 design.  How?  Got me.  

    But I think it is also constructive to think of the design changes from model range to model range.  Carrera S to 4 to GTS to Turbo to Turbo S to GT3 to GT3 RS to GT2 RS.  The design of the latter is far beyond the first.  If you follow this line of thinking you could think of the GT2RS as the first and only 911 design.  Then would that be too much change?

    Gets confusing...


    Re: 991 spyshots thread (continued) (for UNRELEASED models only) Thread Closed

    Mithras:
    reginos:

    When the 964 came out it looked like a 911, no doubt about that, but it was a huge styling step over the previous 3.2 model.

    More so with the 993 which was very fresh and striking in 1993 compared to the predecessor and also compared to rivals.

    Since the 996, Porsche is just really "facelifting" the 911 rather than daring to introduce new up-to-date elements into the design. No one denies the appeal of the iconic shape but modernizing the look won't damage the underlying style or make the car too flashy.  Porsche designers should imitate the Carrera 3.2-964-993 evolution philosophy in their styling direction.

    Porsche have done exactly that with the Boxster/Cayman and it works very well.


    --

    "Form follows function"

    Yet you can bolt 964 bumpers etc on a 80's 911 and they fit. Same for most body parts from 1969 when they lengthened the chassis though to the end of the 964... The changes off the 993-996-997-991 are all bigger than you actually think.


    Yes, I have seen 80s 911s being converted into 964s and even 993s because the basic structure is the same. The styling team of that era should be commended for consistently bringing about effectively so many attractive changes using the same ingredients.


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: 991 spyshots thread (continued) (for UNRELEASED models only) Thread Closed

    reginos:
    ...

    I am not a designer so I wouldn't know how to implement it . But when I see something special I will understand it. Like when I saw the 993 for the first time. The basic car was the same using the bodyshell architecture, roof and doors of the previous 20 years,  but the transition was striking and fresh. The 911 needs more design  imagination IMO.

    My feeling is that they have the right approach, for a couple of reasons. First, there is an iconography in the basic design that is an important aspect of the car. Secondly, and more importantly, I don't see the value of change for change's sake. The design has been constantly refined for function, and as new materials and methods allow refinement, and I just don't see the need for design changes that aren't toward that purpose. It's a great, functional, and modern, design that doesn't, I don't think, need to be changed just to look different, but only as the needs of advancing the overall function of the car require it. Design changes should solve problems, not just be for a "new look". 

    But, then, I have pretty conservative ideas regarding design and fashion.


    Re: 991 spyshots thread (continued) (for UNRELEASED models only) Thread Closed

    imagine you are manufacturing jelly beans - hard to change the shape w/o it becoming a a generic gummi  type candy

    the 911 silhouette is a jelly bean and as long as that cash cow iconic shape is part of the aspirational desire for  young  up and comers , it will remain so as long as it keeps generating $$$ for the scores of Piech and Porsche heirs


    Re: 991 spyshots thread (continued) (for UNRELEASED models only) Thread Closed

    Bad news...

    From my source i got the confirmation the 991 GT3 RS will be NOT in Geneva and delivery to customer will NOT start in summer of this year,all will be postponed .So like other rumors of latest days i think will be unveiled at Paris auto salon with delivery end 2014.

    Really i don't know what to do with a RS in winter...but...sure i think that wait a car for two years will be enough yes

     

     


    --

    997TT RS Tuning stage II(sold),2011 Cayenne Turbo(sold),waiting 991 GT3 RS


    Re: 991 spyshots thread (continued) (for UNRELEASED models only) Thread Closed

    Possibly awaiting clarification of  future GTE rules.yes


    Re: 991 spyshots thread (continued) (for UNRELEASED models only) Thread Closed

    Spyderidol:

    Possibly awaiting clarification of  future GTE rules.yes

    First, Porsche needs to satisfy GT3 orders. Then, they have to be 99.9% sure that everything works as planned. After the delayed GT3 introduction, this is quite understandable. Not so sure they really care about future GTE rules. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: 991 spyshots thread (continued) (for UNRELEASED models only) Thread Closed

    RC - Porsche will need a homologation car if they want to carry on their GT Motorsport business. Traditionally, the GT3 RS has been that car. If they produce a GT3RS that is incongruous to the future GTE rules, they will need to come up with a new model that can be homologated. (assuming of course that they want to keep the their business going). If the 960 can do that, then great. If not, Porsche will be for the first time in their history, with no model to compete in the GT Motorsport world.


    Re: 991 spyshots thread (continued) (for UNRELEASED models only) Thread Closed

    Super Darius:

    Bad news...

    From my source i got the confirmation the 991 GT3 RS will be NOT in Geneva and delivery to customer will NOT start in summer of this year,all will be postponed .So like other rumors of latest days i think will be unveiled at Paris auto salon with delivery end 2014.

    Really i don't know what to do with a RS in winter...but...sure i think that wait a car for two years will be enough yes

     

     


    --

    997TT RS Tuning stage II(sold),2011 Cayenne Turbo(sold),waiting 991 GT3 RS

    Thanks Darius... Information from my dealer suggests it will be at Geneva... I guess we have to wait 4 weeks to find out for sure :)


    Re: 991 spyshots thread (continued) (for UNRELEASED models only) Thread Closed

    SuzyF:
     

    If you look at a 458, everybody, including people that know nothing about cars, know it's a Ferrari... Everybody, including people that know nothing about cars, know it's a Porsche when they look at a 911.

    That's the appeal of both cars. That one doesn't like the shape of a car, doesn't mean the brand is doing something wrong. I don't like the 458's look... I do love that 991's look. Doesn't make either car better or worse. It's just a matter of taste. That's why people have different tastes and do different brands apeal to different people. Porsche's customers want the car to look like it does for 50 years. Ferrari's customers want the car to look flashy, like a real Ferrari. Aston Martins look the same for the last 20 years, because their customers like that....

    i simply cannot see what's wrong with that. 

    I am in complete agreement.  The 928 was a clean sheet of paper and a technologic tour de force for Porsche in the late 1970s. However, from 1978 to 1995 Porsche sold less than 60K with production >5K/yr only twice during the production run. The 928 R&D investment was very substantial at the time for Porsche. That's an experience a business does not soon forget.


    --

    "Don't worry about avoiding temptation, as you grow older it will avoid you"  Churchill


    Re: 991 spyshots thread (continued) (for UNRELEASED models only) Thread Closed

    Super Darius:

    Bad news...

    From my source i got the confirmation the 991 GT3 RS will be NOT in Geneva and delivery to customer will NOT start in summer of this year,all will be postponed .So like other rumors of latest days i think will be unveiled at Paris auto salon with delivery end 2014.

    Really i don't know what to do with a RS in winter...but...sure i think that wait a car for two years will be enough yes

     

     


    --

    997TT RS Tuning stage II(sold),2011 Cayenne Turbo(sold),waiting 991 GT3 RS

    Smiley So that is the same information I got . And the reason that I was told is that Porsche wants to give the GT3 more time first .

    I don't know what to do . I have been waiting for this car now for one year .... not sure I want to wait another year . But then, what can I do ? Buy a GT3 ( 991 ) ? Not convinced yet I want to do that . Buy a used 997 RS and keep it one year until the 991 RS ? Only if that does not cost me too much ....   Smiley

    The other thing I am then concerned about is if the 991 GT3 RS is delivered in december  with the current look and then, 6 month later there is the Carrera facelift , it would make the  bran new RS look immediately dated.

     

    So the other info I got about a future GT2 RS could then be also right .  I was told it exist already but it is too fast compared to the 918 , so they keep it in the pipeline for the moment.


    --

     997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm


    Re: 991 spyshots thread (continued) (for UNRELEASED models only) Thread Closed

    Spyderidol:

    RC - Porsche will need a homologation car if they want to carry on their GT Motorsport business. Traditionally, the GT3 RS has been that car. If they produce a GT3RS that is incongruous to the future GTE rules, they will need to come up with a new model that can be homologated. (assuming of course that they want to keep the their business going). If the 960 can do that, then great. If not, Porsche will be for the first time in their history, with no model to compete in the GT Motorsport world.

    +1 The Cup/GT3R RS etc. are a pretty sizable money maker for the company. A loss leader that isn't a loss!


    --

    Past-President, Porsche Club of America - Upper Canada Region


    Re: 991 spyshots thread (continued) (for UNRELEASED models only) Thread Closed

    Gnil:

    Smiley So that is the same information I got . And the reason that I was told is that Porsche wants to give the GT3 more time first .

    I don't know what to do . I have been waiting for this car now for one year .... not sure I want to wait another year . But then, what can I do ? Buy a GT3 ( 991 ) ? Not convinced yet I want to do that . Buy a used 997 RS and keep it one year until the 991 RS ? Only if that does not cost me too much ....   Smiley

    The other thing I am then concerned about is if the 991 GT3 RS is delivered in december  with the current look and then, 6 month later there is the Carrera facelift , it would make the  bran new RS look immediately dated.

    So the other info I got about a future GT2 RS could then be also right .  I was told it exist already but it is too fast compared to the 918 , so they keep it in the pipeline for the moment.

    If you are not anal about PDK then get a 4.0l RS. I don't think you can have more fun, with your clothes still on.

    If not, then keep your current 997. It is not a bad car and it will for sure last any more kms. Smiley


    --

    2014 981 Boxster S | Riviera Blue | PDK | Sport Suspension (-20mm) | PCCB | PTV | PSE
    2010 997.2 C2S | Carrara White | Manual | S-PASM (-20mm) | PSE | OZ Superforgiata
    2010 Audi S5 cabrio | Ibis White

    Previous
    2008 997.1 C4S | Guards Red | Manual | PSE | Bilstein PSS10 | H&R Roll Bars | Dension 500
    2007 997.1 Turbo | Meteor Gray | Manual | Bilstein PSS10 | Cargraphic Stage 2 | Dension 500
    2005 987.1 Boxster S | Arctic Silver | Manual | OZ Ultraleggera | H&R Cup Suspension | H&R Roll Bars | Sachs Racing Clutch | Recaro Shells
    2005 997.1 C2S | Atlas Gray | Manual | PSE | Sport Suspension (-20mm)


    Re: 991 spyshots thread (continued) (for UNRELEASED models only) Thread Closed

    RC:
    Spyderidol:

    Possibly awaiting clarification of  future GTE rules.yes

    First, Porsche needs to satisfy GT3 orders. Then, they have to be 99.9% sure that everything works as planned. After the delayed GT3 introduction, this is quite understandable. Not so sure they really care about future GTE rules. Smiley

    How many are they planning to sell in 1 year ? 10,000 GT3's worldwide ? Smiley

    Any news about GT2 RS ? tech spec, if there will be one ?


    Re: 991 spyshots thread (continued) (for UNRELEASED models only) Thread Closed

    So...another thought/speculation:  - Turbo's could make a comeback to GT racing in the future . If the new rules (expected to be issued in 2015) allow turbos to be competitive again, Porsche could use the GT2RS as their homologation car and thus maintaining the 911 model as the GT Motorsport product.


    Re: 991 spyshots thread (continued) (for UNRELEASED models only) Thread Closed

    Wonderbar:

    I am a bit with Reginos here, instinctively feeling that Porsche could be somewhat more imaginative in its execution of the 911 design.  How?  Got me.  

    But I think it is also constructive to think of the design changes from model range to model range.  Carrera S to 4 to GTS to Turbo to Turbo S to GT3 to GT3 RS to GT2 RS.  The design of the latter is far beyond the first.  If you follow this line of thinking you could think of the GT2RS as the first and only 911 design.  Then would that be too much change?

    Gets confusing...

    they did it right with the 991 GT3 but went too conservative with the turbo S. 


    Re: 991 spyshots thread (continued) (for UNRELEASED models only) Thread Closed

    Spyderidol:

    RC - Porsche will need a homologation car if they want to carry on their GT Motorsport business. Traditionally, the GT3 RS has been that car. If they produce a GT3RS that is incongruous to the future GTE rules, they will need to come up with a new model that can be homologated. (assuming of course that they want to keep the their business going). If the 960 can do that, then great. If not, Porsche will be for the first time in their history, with no model to compete in the GT Motorsport world.

    You should re-read my post and try to read between the lines. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), BMW X3 35d (2013)


     
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