Crown

Board: Other Sports Cars Language: English Region: Worldwide Share/Save/Bookmark Close

Forum - Thread


    At the age of 25, Alonso is two time F1 World Champion

    Here's my 2 cents guys:

    First of all, many congratulations to Fernando Alonso. He made the most of superior tyres and a superior car (with exceptional reliability) in the first part of the season and ultimately a 25 point defecit proved too much for even MS to overhaul. Fernando made v v few mistakes all season and, in the end, consistency of performance by the driver, the car and the team usually wins. As the season began to approach its climax and when certain controversial decisions went against him, Fernando was under great pressure. He is mature beyond his years and he managed to keep his act together right till the end. He hasn't just outdriven his team mate all year, he has made people question whether Fisi should even have a career in F1. Fisi's performance yesterday was extremely poor and was typical of his performances in 2005 and 2006. I think he will be glad to see Alonso depart so that next year, he won't look so bad in comparison. I don't expect Kovaleinen to set the world on fire. Despite testing for Renault this past year, Kovaleinen was outdriven in testing at Jerez(?) by Nelson Piquet Jr whom Renault should try to sign up for 2008 in place of Fisi. Renault aren't the kind of team that likes to pay top dollar for already established drivers. Flav likes to spot talent (he's v good at this) and harvest it while it's still young and affordable.

    I think it will be interesting to see how Alonso reacts when he has an unreliable car race after race with 'McBroken'. It will be frustrating at first. Will he just say to himself, 'Well, I moved for the money so I shouldn't complain. Kimi put up with this for 4 years', or will his ego make him react like a wounded lion with hurt pride. I would expect that Alonso signed a 2 year deal with an option to extend for another 2 years. I would expect him to go to Ferrari after 2 years if Kimi hasn't delivered 2 drivers titles to Ferrari by then. I just hope that Alonso becomes a nobler champion, less arrogant, more willing to give fair credit to his rivals, less swift to complain about his own team.

    Michael. What can one say? I have watched every F1 GP race for the last 27 years since I was 9 years old. F1 is my passion. I have cheered on MS for many years for 3 reasons: (1) it's human nature to find a reason to support a winner, (2) I love Ferrari (and something doesn't feel right with the world when the prancing horse is not on top), and (3) MS is a rare talent purely based on driving ability (witness his many comeback drives, his superiority in the rain and how he seems able to juggle so many other factors in his mind whilst controlling a car at 300kph). We all know of his records and achievements. It may be a very long time before someone (even Alonso) actually overhauls his records - MS himself has had a 16 year career - but achievements and records don't tell the whole story. They paint a partial picture based on objective data. Where MS has singularly failed is in the way he has gone about winning. Sure, he needed to be ruthless and competitive but he has regularly behaved on track in an unsporting, even unfair, manner. The incidents are all well known to us all so I won't list them again. Somehow, some of us have been prepared to close our eyes to all this because he is the most successful champion of all time.

    Is he the 'best'? What do we even mean by the term 'best'? Do we mean the greatest in terms of victories or the greatest in terms of epitomising what we look for in a champion? From a narrow statistical point of view, he is definitely the greatest, due to his record. But from a wider viewpoint, taking into consideration the various intangible elements that together combine to form our esteem for a retiring champion, I think Senna and Prost were greater. I certainly think they were nobler men. What is it about a champion that we need to see something more in them than what we expect from the also-rans? My view is that we feel a basic human need to see in them something to aspire to, something to hold up as an example of perfection. People whom we can respect more on a personal level. It is for this reason that the way MS has won races leaves me with a slightly sour taste even though I have supported him for so many years. In tennis, I always loved watching the pure artistry of Sampras and it fills me with great joy that a noble man like Federer has succeeded his mantle.

    Coming back to the F1 season, Kimi has disappointed me. Not only did he lose heart with all the unreliability of his car race after race, but he has also shown himself to be of poor character. When asked yesterday whether he went to see the presentation by Pele to MS on the grid before the start of the race, Kimi replied to ITV's Martin Brundle (knowing that millions of people watch the ITV footage) that he was "taking a sh*t". Maybe I'm overreacting to one comment, but I would expect more from him than that. His 'robotic' inteview style hasn't won him any friends. Could you ever imagine going out for a drink with this guy? There would be more atmosphere in a cemetery.

    Massa has matured greatly this year and I hope he has a bright future ahead of him with Ferrari in 2007. I think he will give Kimi a real scare. He has already settled into Ferrari and will force Kimi to have to adjust in double quick time as a result. If Massa leaves Ferrari in 2008, will he do well even if he is no longer in a good car? It seems doubtful. He still needs to grow as a driver so that he can haul himself to the front just by sheer dint of force of character alone. It's easier to win when you have the best car. But extracting more than 100%, figuratively speaking, from a car that isn't the best is what sets the real winners apart.

    Button did very well to win his first GP even though his car was far off the pace all season. He just needed a good amount of luck to compensate for the performance disadvantage. Barrichello has shown that he has struggled in an inferior car. He has matched Button only sometimes this season. He won many races at Ferrari more because of his equipment than because of his skill. He just needs too many things on his side before he really performs.

    BMW have done well in their first season in F1 as both an engine and chassis producer. Villeneuve was living off his past glories and his time had come. Kubica has shown he is hungry and able. He has forced Heidfeld to raise his game. That can only be good for BMW.

    Williams prove that F1 racing cannot be done cheaply (except by Renault!). Webber has been exposed for the poor talent that I always knew him to be. He 'talks' a good race but in F1, eventually, everyone wonders "when is this guy finally going to deliver?". The same fate befell Montoya. Both Webber and Montoya were expert at finding something or someone else to blame for their failures.

    Rosberg's debut season started well but went downhill steply after that. Was he ready? Maybe. Was Williams the right place to start? Probably not because now, nobody talks about him as an exciting 'new' talent. He has already been labelled a failure just as he was getting started.

    I have been amazed by how Super Aguri improved following the launch of their new car. Yesterday they were lapping only 1-2 seconds slower than everyone else. That's excellent progress for a team in its first year of existence.

    I am looking forward avidly to how things turn out in 2007. I think we all need a month or so to get over the tension and drama of this season. It's been a great year. Around December, I am sure we will all be suffering from withdrawal symptoms badly!

    Hope I've been objective in this post...

    Re: At the age of 25, Alonso is two time F1 World Champion

    Alonso is a good driver, and Renault is a great team... but some guys "look good" as champions, and Alonso surely ain't one of them... for those of you who watched the race, I would like to remind you how Schumi made that last pass, 2 or 3 rounds before the finish, in an effort to gain points for the constructor championship... THAT'S a champ... his last race ever, after having lost the driver's championship, he was still battling for the constructor's championship... for his TEAM... I also remember that sunday when he won a race within hours after the passing of his mother... THAT my friends, is a champion... Alonso!!! come on... please...

    Re: At the age of 25, Alonso is two time F1 World Champion

    Alonso is the champion there is nothing to discuss...He needs more experience, people will finally start to admire him, just as in the starts of the king "schumi".

    The only thing I see right now, and that really takes me into thinking.....is who is going to face Alonso in the next season, its like reviving all these years of winning championships with Schumi, Schumi and only Schumi !!!.....

    Lets hope Mclaren performs and outstanding job, Raikonnen drives the hell out of the best car of all these last years (ferrari) without mechanical failures and Massa just tries to follow them.!!!!

    Also I would add to the list Kubica, he will do a great job this upcoming season!!

    I just could not believe if Alonso went to Ferrari instead of Mclaren....that would just kill the passion of formula 1 and start to be a bit boring winning so and so many titles !!! ...Go Mclaren GOOOO!!!!

    Re: At the age of 25, Alonso is two time F1 World Champion

    Quote:
    Per said:
    Quote:
    Jeannot said:
    Quote:
    Shakal said:
    Great result

    LOL, Schumacher wanted to win his last race, but he didnt even came on podium

    great drive by Alonso!!



    Did you watch the race????

    Anyway, if you really think it was a great drive from Alonso, you did not watch the same race as I did...



    Jeannot, I'm curious. Exactly what wasn't great regarding Alonsos drive yesterday?



    If by great you mean: just follow the pace and cross the finish line, sure, it was great...what else?
    I cannot remember a hot lap, a specific overtaking...
    Maybe you can shed some light on the greatness?

    Re: At the age of 25, Alonso is two time F1 World Champion

    Let's be fair gentlemen. Alonso only needed 1 point or for MS not to finish first. If you were in his position, you would doubtless adopt a conservative approach too to eliminate any risk of not getting the title due to car failure or accident. The only risk Alonso faced yesterday (which he couldn't eliminate) was if his team messed up any tyre changes or fuel refills etc.

    He didn't have to drive out of his skin yesterday - the hard work had already been done in the 18 previous races. It's a cumulative effort - not a 'do or die' endeavour where you have to risk all every race.

    Re: At the age of 25, Alonso is two time F1 World Champion

    Carlos, Dr Phil,

    C'mon guys - it's only sport...not whether genocide is being perpetrated in Darfur. It would be a real shame for you two guys (who have enjoyed plenty of lively debate before) to stop talking with each other about F1 or anything else...

    C'mon - pls shake hands guys - and call it quits....:) There's no loss of face in being man enough to bury your quarrel.

    Re: At the age of 25, Alonso is two time F1 World Champion

    Quote:
    easy_rider911 said:

    Is he the 'best'? What do we even mean by the term 'best'? Do we mean the greatest in terms of victories or the greatest in terms of epitomising what we look for in a champion? From a narrow statistical point of view, he is definitely the greatest, due to his record. But from a wider viewpoint, taking into consideration the various intangible elements that together combine to form our esteem for a retiring champion, I think Senna and Prost were greater. I certainly think they were nobler men. What is it about a champion that we need to see something more in them than what we expect from the also-rans? My view is that we feel a basic human need to see in them something to aspire to, something to hold up as an example of perfection. People whom we can respect more on a personal level. It is for this reason that the way MS has won races leaves me with a slightly sour taste even though I have supported him for so many years. In tennis, I always loved watching the pure artistry of Sampras and it fills me with great joy that a noble man like Federer has succeeded his mantle.




    You bring up a valid point when trying to center attention on the concept of best. We all know that statistics are not the most valid methods of analysis. So what does make the best?

    What are the best athletes in other sports?

    In Basketball was Michael Jordan the best? Statistically, not really. Look at Wilt Chamberlain's stats or Oscar Robertson. Jordan also hit in an era where consumerism and brand merchandizing made him greater than an athlete.

    But Michael Jordan is widely refered to as the greatest basketball player ever, perhaps the greatest athlete ever (from an American standpoint, he rivals Ali and Babe Ruth in the top 3). I'll tell you why:

    Jordan captures something within his fanbase which is beyond description or measurement. There is an aura of superiority around him that makes everyone around him better and everyone who watches him awe-struck. He has quintessential defining moments and a championship desire that was unstoppable.

    Greatness is a combination of factors and Schummacher definitely had many of them. He is technically superior to pretty much anything I've seen and his desire to conquer is unmatchable, but in terms of intangibles, I don't think he touches Senna.

    Senna was the greatest because he was driving in an era of competition (his teamate Alain Prost was also one of the greatest drivers ever!), something Michael was not held to during his 2000-5 reign (albeit this is not his fault). Senna was the greatest because he captured the spirit of the sport and lifted it upon his very shoulders. These are attributes that Michael never had, but they are definitely not correlated to mechanical precision or technical perfection.

    On a final note, I emplore you to look at Roger Federer. Federer has entered the discussion as becomming perhaps the greatest tennis player of all time and perhaps the greatest athlete ever. I think what defines Federer's greatness is his ability to make the pseudo-greats of his generation (Guga, Hewitt, Safin, Roddick, perhaps Nadal) obsolete. Granted, tennis is a sport of direct competition while racing is far more convoluted, Federer transcends sporting and enters the realm of the inconcievable.

    Does Michael have this trait? Perhaps, but I think in terms of the scope of F1, Senna defined it.

    Re: At the age of 25, Alonso is two time F1 World Champion

    Quote:
    easy_rider911 said:
    Hope I've been objective in this post...




    Re: At the age of 25, Alonso is two time F1 World Champion

    Quote:
    easy_rider911 said:
    Carlos, Dr Phil,

    It would be a real shame for you two guys (who have enjoyed plenty of lively debate before) to stop talking with each other about F1 or anything else...





    Re: At the age of 25, Alonso is two time F1 World Champion

    Quote:
    Jeannot said:
    Quote:
    Per said:
    Quote:
    Jeannot said:
    Quote:
    Shakal said:
    Great result

    LOL, Schumacher wanted to win his last race, but he didnt even came on podium

    great drive by Alonso!!



    Did you watch the race????

    Anyway, if you really think it was a great drive from Alonso, you did not watch the same race as I did...



    Jeannot, I'm curious. Exactly what wasn't great regarding Alonsos drive yesterday?



    If by great you mean: just follow the pace and cross the finish line, sure, it was great...what else?
    I cannot remember a hot lap, a specific overtaking...
    Maybe you can shed some light on the greatness?



    Jeannot, if you don't see it, I can't help you. Of course it is a bitter experience for you at the moment since you are routing for MS. But if you can't admit that Alonso is a great driver with a great future in Formula One, then you are to single minded for my taste.

    Re: At the age of 25, Alonso is two time F1 World Champion

    Quote:
    Per said:
    Quote:
    Jeannot said:
    Quote:
    Per said:
    Quote:
    Jeannot said:
    Quote:
    Shakal said:
    Great result

    LOL, Schumacher wanted to win his last race, but he didnt even came on podium

    great drive by Alonso!!



    Did you watch the race????

    Anyway, if you really think it was a great drive from Alonso, you did not watch the same race as I did...



    Jeannot, I'm curious. Exactly what wasn't great regarding Alonsos drive yesterday?



    If by great you mean: just follow the pace and cross the finish line, sure, it was great...what else?
    I cannot remember a hot lap, a specific overtaking...
    Maybe you can shed some light on the greatness?



    Jeannot, if you don't see it, I can't help you. Of course it is a bitter experience for you at the moment since you are routing for MS. But if you can't admit that Alonso is a great driver with a great future in Formula One, then you are to single minded for my taste.



    Were did you see a great race from him yesterday?
    COME ON! Be objective!
    He is a good driver and all the rest, future will tell...
    If you think he had a great race, I would like to see how YOU (obviously multiple minded and visionary etc...) would qualify Schumi's????
    Alonso had a great race in Hungary...Unbelievable first lap...But yesterday??? Maybe you were watching a tape of that race?
    And to the point made before, he did not HAVE to put up a great race...and he didn't....

    Re: At the age of 25, Alonso is two time F1 World Champion

    Quote:
    Carlos from Spain said:
    ...on what was a second division team before him, for the second year in a row...



    As an engine manufacturer Renault is one of the most sucessful teams ever in F1.

    Second division team? Not even close.

    Re: At the age of 25, Alonso is two time F1 World Champion

    Quote:
    Carlos from Spain said:
    At an age were no driver in the history of F1 had even won one F1 world Championship title, Fernando Alonso has already two consecutive world champioship titles in his curricumlum. He already joins the ranks of Fitipaldi or Mika Hakkinen in championship titles. Not even Michael Schumacher has been able to beat the newcomer Alonso in his introduction to F1.

    Alonso is also the youngest driver to make a podium finish in F1, the youngest to achieve a fastest lap in a race, the youngest to achieve a Pole Position, and the youngest to win a F1 GP race.





    Mega LOL

    Re: At the age of 25, Alonso is two time F1 World Champion

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    Quote:
    Atzporsche said:
    Alonso will never be a Schumacher. never.



    Alonso may surpass Schmacher in victories. But it doesnt look like Alonso is as creepy as Schuy when it comes to unsportsman like conduct on the track.

    Schuys career had good timing and he is a very talented guy.
    F1 will not be as much fun without his "Black Knight" win at any cost, smirking on track persona.

    This thread started with "At the age of 25, Alonso is two time F1 World Champion" and morphed into a wailing wall for
    anti Alonso people. Give credit where credit is due. 2 F1 chanpionships in a row is impressive.

    Its not a perfect sport with a perfect equal playing field. All things considered its a sterling achievement for anyone
    to win a championship, much less two in a row.





    MEGA LOL...

    Re: At the age of 25, Alonso is two time F1 World Champion

    Quote:
    temm said:
    Quote:
    Carlos from Spain said:
    Fact is: Schumacher 0 - Alonso 2. Period. Schummy has 7 world titles but he lost his duel with Alonso, and Alonso at the age of 25 has 12 more championships in front of him if he retires at the age that Shumy did, plenty of time to rack in 6 more world titles




    You seem to have forgotten that Fernando will be driving a McLaren from next year
    If he wins the championship next year I will eat my Ferrari shirt



    So will I! personally I don't think McLaren will be back to being competitive enough by next year, not even with Alonso on the drivers seat now. If the end of the season Ferrari 248-F1 is any indication of things to come, I think next season will be a 1-2 Ferrari championship win. That car is in another league. I think 2007 will be Kimi's year.

    Like ed_moree said, shummi won two initial titles with Briatore and didn't start to win until he landed on Ferrari. I think it will be Fernando's case as well. Can you imagine a Kimi-Alosno Ferrari team? of course that would never happen, Ferrari always wanted a top driver and the other seat was for a "esquire" to serve and help the top driver win the championship.

    Hope Kubica gets a top team seat soon, he is showing a lot of promise.

    Re: At the age of 25, Alonso is two time F1 World Champion

    Quote:
    easy_rider911 said:
    Here's my 2 cents guys:

    First of all, many congratulations to Fernando Alonso. He made the most of superior tyres and a superior car (with exceptional reliability) in the first part of the season and ultimately a 25 point defecit proved too much for even MS to overhaul. Fernando made v v few mistakes all season and, in the end, consistency of performance by the driver, the car and the team usually wins. As the season began to approach its climax and when certain controversial decisions went against him, Fernando was under great pressure. He is mature beyond his years and he managed to keep his act together right till the end. He hasn't just outdriven his team mate all year, he has made people question whether Fisi should even have a career in F1. Fisi's performance yesterday was extremely poor and was typical of his performances in 2005 and 2006. I think he will be glad to see Alonso depart so that next year, he won't look so bad in comparison. I don't expect Kovaleinen to set the world on fire. Despite testing for Renault this past year, Kovaleinen was outdriven in testing at Jerez(?) by Nelson Piquet Jr whom Renault should try to sign up for 2008 in place of Fisi. Renault aren't the kind of team that likes to pay top dollar for already established drivers. Flav likes to spot talent (he's v good at this) and harvest it while it's still young and affordable.

    I think it will be interesting to see how Alonso reacts when he has an unreliable car race after race with 'McBroken'. It will be frustrating at first. Will he just say to himself, 'Well, I moved for the money so I shouldn't complain. Kimi put up with this for 4 years', or will his ego make him react like a wounded lion with hurt pride. I would expect that Alonso signed a 2 year deal with an option to extend for another 2 years. I would expect him to go to Ferrari after 2 years if Kimi hasn't delivered 2 drivers titles to Ferrari by then. I just hope that Alonso becomes a nobler champion, less arrogant, more willing to give fair credit to his rivals, less swift to complain about his own team.

    Michael. What can one say? I have watched every F1 GP race for the last 27 years since I was 9 years old. F1 is my passion. I have cheered on MS for many years for 3 reasons: (1) it's human nature to find a reason to support a winner, (2) I love Ferrari (and something doesn't feel right with the world when the prancing horse is not on top), and (3) MS is a rare talent purely based on driving ability (witness his many comeback drives, his superiority in the rain and how he seems able to juggle so many other factors in his mind whilst controlling a car at 300kph). We all know of his records and achievements. It may be a very long time before someone (even Alonso) actually overhauls his records - MS himself has had a 16 year career - but achievements and records don't tell the whole story. They paint a partial picture based on objective data. Where MS has singularly failed is in the way he has gone about winning. Sure, he needed to be ruthless and competitive but he has regularly behaved on track in an unsporting, even unfair, manner. The incidents are all well known to us all so I won't list them again. Somehow, some of us have been prepared to close our eyes to all this because he is the most successful champion of all time.

    Is he the 'best'? What do we even mean by the term 'best'? Do we mean the greatest in terms of victories or the greatest in terms of epitomising what we look for in a champion? From a narrow statistical point of view, he is definitely the greatest, due to his record. But from a wider viewpoint, taking into consideration the various intangible elements that together combine to form our esteem for a retiring champion, I think Senna and Prost were greater. I certainly think they were nobler men. What is it about a champion that we need to see something more in them than what we expect from the also-rans? My view is that we feel a basic human need to see in them something to aspire to, something to hold up as an example of perfection. People whom we can respect more on a personal level. It is for this reason that the way MS has won races leaves me with a slightly sour taste even though I have supported him for so many years. In tennis, I always loved watching the pure artistry of Sampras and it fills me with great joy that a noble man like Federer has succeeded his mantle.

    Coming back to the F1 season, Kimi has disappointed me. Not only did he lose heart with all the unreliability of his car race after race, but he has also shown himself to be of poor character. When asked yesterday whether he went to see the presentation by Pele to MS on the grid before the start of the race, Kimi replied to ITV's Martin Brundle (knowing that millions of people watch the ITV footage) that he was "taking a sh*t". Maybe I'm overreacting to one comment, but I would expect more from him than that. His 'robotic' inteview style hasn't won him any friends. Could you ever imagine going out for a drink with this guy? There would be more atmosphere in a cemetery.

    Massa has matured greatly this year and I hope he has a bright future ahead of him with Ferrari in 2007. I think he will give Kimi a real scare. He has already settled into Ferrari and will force Kimi to have to adjust in double quick time as a result. If Massa leaves Ferrari in 2008, will he do well even if he is no longer in a good car? It seems doubtful. He still needs to grow as a driver so that he can haul himself to the front just by sheer dint of force of character alone. It's easier to win when you have the best car. But extracting more than 100%, figuratively speaking, from a car that isn't the best is what sets the real winners apart.

    Button did very well to win his first GP even though his car was far off the pace all season. He just needed a good amount of luck to compensate for the performance disadvantage. Barrichello has shown that he has struggled in an inferior car. He has matched Button only sometimes this season. He won many races at Ferrari more because of his equipment than because of his skill. He just needs too many things on his side before he really performs.

    BMW have done well in their first season in F1 as both an engine and chassis producer. Villeneuve was living off his past glories and his time had come. Kubica has shown he is hungry and able. He has forced Heidfeld to raise his game. That can only be good for BMW.

    Williams prove that F1 racing cannot be done cheaply (except by Renault!). Webber has been exposed for the poor talent that I always knew him to be. He 'talks' a good race but in F1, eventually, everyone wonders "when is this guy finally going to deliver?". The same fate befell Montoya. Both Webber and Montoya were expert at finding something or someone else to blame for their failures.

    Rosberg's debut season started well but went downhill steply after that. Was he ready? Maybe. Was Williams the right place to start? Probably not because now, nobody talks about him as an exciting 'new' talent. He has already been labelled a failure just as he was getting started.

    I have been amazed by how Super Aguri improved following the launch of their new car. Yesterday they were lapping only 1-2 seconds slower than everyone else. That's excellent progress for a team in its first year of existence.

    I am looking forward avidly to how things turn out in 2007. I think we all need a month or so to get over the tension and drama of this season. It's been a great year. Around December, I am sure we will all be suffering from withdrawal symptoms badly!

    Hope I've been objective in this post...



    Brilliant analysis, I agree point for point of what you said.

    Re: At the age of 25, Alonso is two time F1 World Champion

    @ Easy Rider: Nice and balanced post

    I think you're touching the very heart of what people see in F1, and where people disagree about this topic:
    The drivers. Their character as sportsmen, as persons, on and off the track.
    How we see the drivers as brands, if you will.

    To some, the carmake is more important than the drivers.
    To others it's vice versa.

    To me it's primarily the drivers that interest me, secondly the way the respective teams work and interact with eachoter.

    I dont think F1 lacks good drivers, but F1 really lacks great personalities.
    U can like Schumi or not - which is exactly what people did. Most either hate or love him. Had he been "in the middle of the road" or anonymous, we probably wouldnt have debated him much.
    True, MS's impressive statistics speak for themselves - but MS's personality both on and off track have often been the object of debate.

    So, with him gone, who else is there?
    Alonso: Yes, he is absolutely debatable, which I believe is important for F1.
    Most people have an opinion about him because he isnt anonymous.

    Who else then? Raikkonen? To me the best driver in the field, bar none - but personalitywise he has the charisma of a sleeping accountant.
    What makes me like him, is the fact that he doesnt talk much, but entertains with his driving style (when his McLaren doesnt act up) on the track.
    If you could mix Alonso's behaviour off the track with Raikkonen's aggressive driving style on the track you'd have a driver that would be hard to ignore.

    Massa: I have NO clue what this guy is like, and the same goes for most drivers in the field. Perhaps I feel this way because they dont interest me, or perhaps they dont interest me simply because they arent interesting.
    From what I see in the media, I really like Barrichello as a person, and he is also a pretty solid driver and a remarkable team mate.
    Sadly he is stuck in a crappy car - and perhaps is also SO nice and kind, that it's borderline bland, and not many really look at him as star material.

    I'm sad to see MS go. Not because I was ever a fan of his, but because F1 needs a "King" or a "Darth Vader".
    Someone to beat, someone to fight, hate, love, admire or be disgusted by. MS was both Luke Skywalker and Darth Vader in oner person.
    None of the other drivers really have that quality, or similar magnetism.


    The teams and cars are actually the heroes nowadays.
    How so?
    Look at Massa's F1 carreer.
    In 2004 and 2005 he was part of Sauber-Petronas. His results these two years: 13th (2005) and 12th (2004) place in the final standings.
    Not really impressive. Then he joins Ferrari in 2006 and suddenly he ends as number 3 total.

    IMO you have to be a die-hard Massa fan or pretty uninformed to believe this result was caused by anything but a change of teams, and hereby a change for monumentally better equipment.
    IMO Massa's 3rd place in his first season for Ferrari is even more impressive than Alonso's 4th place in his first season for Renault.
    So is Massa more talented that Alonso? I dont see why he couldnt be, but I also dont see how anyone can conclude this.

    To me 80% of Alonso's success is due to his machinery and team. The rest is talent and skill.
    And I would think this also applies to the rest of the drivers, perhaps except MS who has proven time and time again that he can make the most of equipment that isnt always 100% OK.

    If Kimi wins his first championship in 2007, it will be probably greatly because of Ferrari as a team and the realiability of their cars.
    And if McLaren continues building unreliable cars like they have been, I promise you it will reflect in Alonso's results.

    And this is what seriously annoys me in these F1 debates: That some people seem to conveniently forget that Alonso was part of the team that had the best setup (car + crew) the two seasons he won. Just like MS had a superior package in 2004 when he won most races.

    I am well aware, that NOBODY wins any F1 championship by having the fastest car and best crew alone. It takes takent, skill and hard work. No doubt. Having said that, you have to be ignoring simple common sense and logic, if you honestly believe that it's a coincidence that the two teams this year who had the fastest cars (Ferrari and Renault) also ended up 1,2,3 and 4.
    The way they ranked also accurately reflects their team ability and driver ability. Alonso is clearly a more mature and calm driver than Fisicella and MS is a lot more experienced than Massa.
    Hence the results.

    It's like me racing Walther Rörhl in a race. He's in an old unreliable 924 and I'm in a 997 TT.
    Am I a better driver if I beat him? Of course not. You can claim I am after my 997TT leaves his 924 in the dust - but that still wont change the fact, that I would lose have we competed in similar cars.

    Speed and reliability plays a MAJOR role in F1- and those two factors can mainly be attributed to the constructors, technicians and pitcrew. Not the drivers alone.

    Suppose the teams have the exact same strenghts and weaknesses next year - then I wont be very impressed with Kimi if he wins.
    It would be only natural as I see Kimi as way more talented than Fisichella.
    I'd be impressed if someone from an inferior team (McLaren, Honda, Red Bull e.g) beat Renault or Ferrari.
    If Alonso can repeat his championship in Kimi's car and under the same circumstances, then Ill be impressed.

    Alonso is no doubt a good driver. Is he a new Michael Schumacher or Senna?
    I dont think so. Not because he isnt talented or accomplished, but because he needs to prove himself a lot more that "just" winning twice in the fastest and most reliable car in the lineup.

    Sadly, this situation prolly will never arise, and Alonso will have a hard time proving his worth to critics like myself, cuz we probably wont see a season where the top drivers all have the same quality of material to work with. And hence it will be hard to judge if it's the car or driver that wins a race. That's sad for all fans, no matter who you support.

    Perhaps the A1 series is the answer?


    Easy Rider: Thanks for trying a "Jimmy Carter" regarding Carlos and myself
    We just can't agree on the same rules of dialogue, and seem to have opposing views on a couple of things that are vital to mutual respect when debating. As long as it is like this, I agree with Carlos, that Rennteam is better off if the two of us dont debate directly.

    Re: At the age of 25, Alonso is two time F1 World Champion

    I agree with that car plays to big role in modern F1. There are differences between top drivers and others (Alonso outpaced Fisichella, Schumacher and Raikkonen theirs team mates), but if top driver dont have top car, cant win.

    Massa is good example, and Villeneuve mybie even better - in top car, he almost won his first race in career and had pole position on this race. After winning world championship, he didnt won race again, because he didnt have top car..

    I like champcar rules - most teams have same chassis, same engine, manual gearshift, slick tyres.

    BTW: Nice quote from Eccelstone:

    Schumacher also 'lacked opponents', Bernie charged. "If Villeneuve had stayed in a good car," the Englishman continued, "or Mika (Hakkinen) had kept on going, who knows if he would have had dominated like he did."




    Easyrider: Very nice written

    Re: At the age of 25, Alonso is two time F1 World Champion

    Sure Schu is talented, but like I said before, the way his talent is exaggerated is annoying. Some people make it sound like if he were driving a Super Aguri, he would begin turning fast laps and then win by 30 seconds. What about this- pretend Alonso were in Schu's shoes yesterday- do you think he would have been putting out blistering laps to reach the front? I think he would have. But the difference is people wouldnt be glorifying him for such a "masterful" and "unbelievable" performance.


    I would have to say his best quality as a driver is his relentless push to go faster- but aren't all F1 drivers like that?

    When Bernie says "he didnt have enough competition", I think it was in terms of cars and not drivers.

    Re: At the age of 25, Alonso is two time F1 World Champion

    Congrats Alonso and I will sorely miss Schumi. Alonso is crazy to leave a two time winning team for a struggling one.

    Re: At the age of 25, Alonso is two time F1 World Champion

    Quote:
    911fan said:
    Sure Schu is talented, but like I said before, the way his talent is exaggerated is annoying. Some people make it sound like if he were driving a Super Aguri, he would begin turning fast laps and then win by 30 seconds. What about this- pretend Alonso were in Schu's shoes yesterday- do you think he would have been putting out blistering laps to reach the front? I think he would have. But the difference is people wouldnt be glorifying him for such a "masterful" and "unbelievable" performance.


    I would have to say his best quality as a driver is his relentless push to go faster- but aren't all F1 drivers like that?

    When Bernie says "he didnt have enough competition", I think it was in terms of cars and not drivers.



    I agree that there is a tendency to exaggerate the abilities of Schumi. Some say that he actually IS that much better than the rest, and some believe its the whole package + legend + branding etc that has made many people see MS as something special.
    And those who say so, can back it up by referring to his staggering number of wins.

    Alonso, Kimi or anybody else would have pushed like crazy, too. No doubt.
    My own belief is, that only very few drivers in F1 would be able to do it so effectively as MS.
    He overtook some pretty good drivers very quickly. I cant remember having seen anything like this in years.

    Montoya had the same aggressive winner mentality, but unfortunately also a bad temper and equally poor self-discipline.
    Alonso has coolness and tactical focus - but I dont see the same aggressive mentality in his driving as MS.
    Kimi has the coolness and aggression too IMO - but needs the equiment that matches. I cant wait to see if Ferrari can deliver the hardware in 2007.

    Some will argue that aggression isnt key in F1, and that it can be really bad for a number of reasons.
    I would hate to see more boring, tactical races that are decided in the pit and on the team boss's laptop.

    I would love to see a revised point system, that made tactical driving less profitable. 20 points for no 1, 10 for no 2 etc.
    More to fight for and hence a chance of better and more entertaining racing.

    Re: At the age of 25, Alonso is two time F1 World Champion

    Quote:
    911fan said:
    Sure Schu is talented, but like I said before, the way his talent is exaggerated is annoying. Some people make it sound like if he were driving a Super Aguri, he would begin turning fast laps and then win by 30 seconds.



    Give the man more credit. That supreme team that he benefited from was raised by his input and his charisma.

    Furthermore, the refute your point, you should have seen him race magnificently in several loosing efforts last year, as his car/tyre package was inept, mustering great efforts and wiley veteran skills to inch for position and do admirably in tracks where his car was clearly outpaced.

    Re: At the age of 25, Alonso is two time F1 World Champion

    Quote:
    Hurst said:
    Quote:
    911fan said:
    Sure Schu is talented, but like I said before, the way his talent is exaggerated is annoying. Some people make it sound like if he were driving a Super Aguri, he would begin turning fast laps and then win by 30 seconds.



    Give the man more credit. That supreme team that he benefited from was raised by his input and his charisma.

    Furthermore, the refute your point, you should have seen him race magnificently in several loosing efforts last year, as his car/tyre package was inept, mustering great efforts and wiley veteran skills to inch for position and do admirably in tracks where his car was clearly outpaced.



    Sure credit for that what he done goes to him too, because he is great motivator, has great tehnical knowledge and is 100% commited to his work + he is top driver.

    But it was only question of time when will be Ferrari top team, because with Schumacher moved a lot key people from Benetton to Ferrari. Top key people + very big account $$ + great driver = successes. And car was made for Schumacher, second driver was just to help him. Irvine told that when Schumacher get 3rd race car, they made one for Irvine with parts which wasnt used on Schumacher`s car. Its not far away from truth


    Re: At the age of 25, Alonso is two time F1 World Champion

    Quote:
    Dr. Phil said:

    I would love to see a revised point system, that made tactical driving less profitable. 20 points for no 1, 10 for no 2 etc.
    More to fight for and hence a chance of better and more entertaining racing.



    That's a very good point. All those who claim that some of the FIA's decisions have been made in favour of Ferrari should not forget that they changed the point system in order to prevent the number one from gaining a big point-account too early in the season's course (hence more tactics and less "the winner takes it all" mentality).

    Re: At the age of 25, Alonso is two time F1 World Champion

    Dr. Phil you have some good points. I still think Schu is over rated but agree he is really talented. As you stated, "some believe its the whole package + legend + branding etc"- I agree with that. I can't think of a sportsman that has been more heralded. But think of it this way- Did Michael Jordan have shoes that made him jump higher? Did he use a basketball with a magnet inside so it would go in the basket? That's how I see Schu. Yes, the intensity and drive inside him is truly something to behold. He was almost machine-like in his pursuit of winning. But the underlying unfairness of the whole F1 system- who has the bigger wind tunnel, who has 20 more hp, who is ahead in development, makes it difficult to give Schu the crown so many have put on his head.

    I have watched footage on Youtube of Montoya making Schu look silly through a turn at the Canadian GP, as well as Alonso doing the same at Suzuka. Thats what gets me about all the Schu mania.

    One more thing- about the Raikonnen pass on Sunday. Its difficult for me to understand the praise being heaped on it because as he entered the corner, Raikonnen moved to the outside and Schu simply slipped up the inside. Maybe I am missing something.

     
    Edit

    Forum

    Board Subject Last post Rating Views Replies
    Porsche Sticky SUN'S LAST RUN TO WILSON, WY - 991 C2S CAB LIFE, END OF AN ERA 2/14/19 1:26 AM
    watt
    331110 2045
    Porsche Sticky The moment I've been waiting for... 2/21/19 10:38 AM
    RCA
     
     
     
     
     
    218657 1125
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: 991.2 GT3 RS (2018) 2/21/19 6:45 PM
    Porsche-Jeck
    146265 2580
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: The new Porsche 992 – a design icon and high-tech sports car 2/21/19 3:55 PM
    the-missile
    62672 822
    Porsche Sticky Paint protection film 2/18/19 9:28 AM
    RCA
    16328 149
    Porsche Sticky Child seats in a 991 11/29/18 3:43 PM
    RCA
    14691 35
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: 992 Carrera Cabriolet 2/18/19 11:28 AM
    RCA
    10258 127
    Porsche Sticky Welcome to Rennteam: Cars and Coffee... (photos) 2/18/19 8:51 PM
    Boxster Coupe GTS
    3293 60
    Porsche OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S 1/4/19 7:02 PM
    Topspeed
    486948 4255
    Porsche OFFICIAL: New 991.2 GT3 (2017) 2/19/19 11:40 PM
    4trac
    422680 5222
    Porsche 992 (Next 911 generation 2019/2020) Thread Closed 11/29/18 11:38 AM
    RCA
    318168 3195
    Porsche OFFICIAL: 911 R (2016) 12/31/18 2:19 AM
    DJM48
    286733 2598
    Porsche Cayman GT4 2/19/19 8:00 PM
    dreamcar
    280941 2760
    Porsche OFFICIAL: 911 GT2 RS (2017) 1/30/19 3:10 AM
    ha
    219683 2777
    Ferrari 488 GTB/GTS 1/17/19 8:13 PM
    GoHardGT3RS
    195651 1789
    McLaren McLaren on a winning streak 2/18/19 10:28 AM
    RCA
    191712 3355
    Others Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016 model) - Review (updated Feb 13th 2017) 12/17/18 12:42 PM
    RCA
    157872 2491
    Porsche Boxster Spyder (981) 8/31/18 10:25 AM
    WAY
    144633 757
    Ferrari Ferrari F12 Berlinetta / 599 GTO Successor 5/22/18 9:16 PM
    RCA
    113034 789
    Others VW caught cheating emissions tests 5/3/18 7:52 PM
    CGX car nut
    107944 871
    Porsche Porsche Mission E - the future of Porsche? 2/18/19 1:00 PM
    RCA
    99198 1370
    Porsche Donor vehicle for Singer Vehicle Design 12/7/18 10:15 PM
    Boxster Coupe GTS
    68859 673
    Others Tesla Roadster 2/21/19 8:10 PM
    SciFrog
    57682 1736
    Porsche OFFICIAL: New 991.2 Carrera GTS models 11/3/18 11:09 AM
    bluelines
    48444 477
    Others Tesla Model X Thread Closed 2/23/18 3:41 PM
    RCA
    43589 1122
    AMG AMG GT R 11/30/18 4:10 PM
    RCA
    43152 605
    Lambo Aventador and SV 11/19/18 8:31 AM
    RCA
    40877 472
    Porsche OFFICIAL: New 991.2 Turbo S Exclusive Series (2017) 12/4/18 3:17 PM
    BiTurbo
    40641 650
    AMG Mercedes E63 S AMG (2018) - Short Review (updated on a regular basis) 2/14/19 1:44 PM
    RCA
    40306 387
    Porsche OFFICIAL: New Porsche Carrera T 12/13/18 2:27 PM
    RCA
    39238 804
    270 items found, displaying 1 to 30.